From beacybooks at bigpond.com Mon May 2 04:43:45 2005 From: beacybooks at bigpond.com (Tom Harris) Date: Mon May 2 04:44:20 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Format for corrections to etexts Message-ID: <05b501c54f0c$32993370$445d8b90@tombr8f71av6f6> Can someone point me to documentation for the format for submitting corrections to an existing etext? Regards Tom Harris BeacyBooks beacybooks@bigpond.com From jon_niehof at yahoo.com Mon May 2 08:19:24 2005 From: jon_niehof at yahoo.com (Jon Niehof) Date: Mon May 2 08:19:29 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Format for corrections to etexts In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050502151924.68947.qmail@web41613.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tom Harris wrote: > Can someone point me to documentation for the format for > submitting corrections to an existing etext? There isn't a prescribed format as such, but see the FAQ for suggestions: http://www.gutenberg.org/faq/R-26.php If there's an email address in the header for the producer, send it there, else to errata_AT_pglaf.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jon at noring.name Wed May 4 13:38:48 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Wed May 4 13:39:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] OpenReader announcement: Open-standards eBook Format and Reading System Development Discussion Groups Message-ID: <1995462783.20050504143848@noring.name> Quick Summary (including how to subscribe): ------------------------------------------- You are invited to subscribe and participate in one or both of the following discussion groups (hosted at YahooGroups) supporting the ongoing activities of the OpenReader Consortium: 1) "openreader-format": OpenReader Format Specification (an open-standards ebook and digital publication/document distribution format), and 2) "openreader-devel": Development of an open-source, license-free, multi-platform reference implementation of an OpenReader reading system ("user agent"). (Both projects will be summarized in the next section. For more detailed information, refer to http://www.openreader.org/ .) If you have a supportive interest in either topic, we invite you to subscribe to the group of interest. (Those who subscribe to the "user agent development" group are strongly urged to also subscribe to the Format group.) By joining either of these groups, there is no implied commitment to become an active participant in either of the associated Working Groups, although we certainly hope you will. We welcome your thoughts and insights, even if you choose not to actively participate in formal Working Group activities. The home pages to the two groups are found at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openreader-format/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openreader-devel/ There is a link to subscribe to each group at the group's home page. Or, you can subscribe to either using the following email addresses: openreader-format-subscribe@yahoogroups.com openreader-devel-subscribe@yahoogroups.com If you prefer not to go through the process of subscribing yourself to either group, I'll be more than happy to subscribe you. Just email me (jon@openreader.org or jon@noring.name) your request to join -- be sure to specify which group(s) -- along with the email address you want to use to receive group messages. More Detailed Information about OpenReader: ------------------------------------------- As noted in the prior section, the best online resource explaining OpenReader is the current OpenReader web site (planned to soon undergo a much-needed major update and upgrade): http://www.openreader.org/ OpenReader is a cooperative project to create an open, standards-based digital publication distribution format to facilitate current, continuing, and long-term access to ebooks and other types of digital publications and documents. The OpenReader distribution format will be based on well-established XML vocabularies, publication frameworks, and W3C technologies. This includes OEBPS (the Open eBook Publication Structure framework), XHTML, CSS, MathML, SVG and XLink, to name the more important ones. Our current plans also include eventual native support for TEI, NewsML, and possibly other advanced and specialized document markup vocabularies and publication frameworks. The OpenReader Consortium will also support the development of reference implementations of programs to render OpenReader-compliant documents on a number of devices, and to convert OpenReader-compliant documents to other publication formats, such as PDF/A. There is a clear need for such a distribution format, given the present anarchy of multiple, incompatible, inflexible, and proprietary publication formats which do not provide the reading experience consumers want and publishers strive for. David Rothman, in his TeleRead blog covering the ebook, digital library, and related industries (http://www.teleread.org/blog/), aptly describes this situation as the "Tower of eBabel". While the initial focus of the OpenReader Consortium is primarily on ebooks, we intend to make the distribution format flexible enough to be applicable to a wide variety of digital publications and documents, such as periodicals, newspapers, document collections, white papers, many types of business documents, etc. We even envision the OpenReader format to be quite useful for encapsulating and archiving standards- conformant Web sites. When the HTML format and HTTP protocol were developed more than a decade ago, NCSA developed a "web browser", Mosaic, to support the format and protocol. The success of the World Wide Web was due as much to the wide-spread availability of the NCSA Mosaic browser, as it was to the openness and availability of the HTML and HTTP specifications. Similarly, we believe that it is important to develop, in conjunction with the OpenReader Format, a cross-platform, open-source, license-free reference implementation of an OpenReader rendering program, which will make the OpenReader Format Specification truly useful, to establish uniform rendering behavior, and to spur others to build their own conforming OpenReader user agents. ***** We look forward to your joining either or both groups, even if to lurk. If you know of others who may be interested in OpenReader, feel free to forward this announcement to them. We are also building a Consortium of interested companies and organizations in the digital publication and document universe who see the open-standards OpenReader as furthering their business and institutional objectives. Of course, we are looking for dedicated individuals, who agree with the OpenReader philosophy, to become leaders and help to make OpenReader a success. Thanks. Jon Noring OpenReader Consortium jon@openreader.org jon@noring.name From gbnewby at pglaf.org Wed May 4 22:00:27 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Wed May 4 22:00:29 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: <4262D635.14434.13F7655@localhost> References: <4262D635.14434.13F7655@localhost> Message-ID: <20050505050027.GA12192@pglaf.org> Reminder: please offer comments! I'm planning on getting something in by the May 9 5:00 pm EDT deadline (it's not May 5 as mentioned) below. More: On Sun, Apr 17, 2005 at 09:33:41PM +0200, Branko Collin wrote: > > From what I understand, no PG volunteer (not counting John Mark > Ockerbloom) has posted a comment to the US Copyright Office's RFC > about "orphan works". > > So now US copyright policy will be guided by comments such as Kristie > Hubler's: "If people have access to my work without paying for it, > and using it just to make a buck, it would be as if I were being > raped, or having a child I bore ripped out of my arms, never to be > seen again." The nature of the comments that can still be submitted are "reply comments." If you find particularly good documents to reply to (either because they say something great, or something terrible), please let me know. > It may very well be possible that PG volunteers have no opinion about > orphan works. In that case, consider this e-mail message not sent. We actually have a draft rule to apply for such orphaned works, but it is not in place yet because we have not received sufficient legal guidance for me to feel comfortable applying it (in case you didn't already know this, as CEO my main most important role, though not usually one that takes the most of my time, is to manage PGLAF's risk. The majority of our risk comes from decisions we make about the copyright status of works we distribute). I am appending our "rule 9 howto" draft below, in case you're interested. This draft is *not* for use. We are *not* taking "rule 9" clearance requests. It is *not* legal advice. The URLs mentioned don't work. All that said, I think it is approximately consistent with our understanding of the current copyright law in the US. > If you are concerned about orphan works, now is your last chance to > be heard. You can send reply comments to the US Copyright Office > until May 5, 2005. The rules are explained here: > May 9, 5:00 pm EDT. > Initially some 700 comments were submitted. It's hard to read through > all of them, so I suggest Googling for abstracts, looking for the > usual suspects et cetera. I'm looking at http://www.copyright.gov/orphan/comments/ and only see about 150 comments. Maybe they removed duplicates (a lot of folks probably submitted some sort of template)? Still, a lot of reading. > There's an unused Wiki running at > . I suggest you > use that for sharing notes. (Still unused...) > Do not wait for an official PG position statement. Official > statements are hard to draft, because they require consensus. Also, > official statements tend to sound impersonal, exactly because they > represent a consensus position. There is nothing wrong with sounding > like you actually care (although I would leave the Hubler-style > hysterics at home). Concur!!! It's OK to just write a brief comment reply that says you agree with someone, or disagree with someone. It doesn't need to be a huge essay, and you do not need to be an expert about copyright. If you want to read a primer on copyright changes, see our copyright HOWTO at http://gutenberg.org/howto/copyright , especially the section after "Rule 8" (read the background stuff). -- Greg Here's the draft Rule 9, which you should *not* try to use yet: RULE 9 HOW-TO ------------- *DRAFT* NOT FOR USE This copyright rule allows Project Gutenberg to distribute materials that may still be under copyright protection but are not currently available at a reasonable cost. In order to suppport Section 108(h) clearances, we have started a list of items we believe it applies to at this Web address: http://pglaf.org/copyright The list is available for additions by any bona fide library or archive which has performed due diligence to demonstrate a work qualifies for a Section 108(h) exception. Someday, the publishers themselves or another body may form such a registry, but currently none exists that we know of so we have started our own. To demonstrate a book qualifies for a statutory license for redistribution under Section 108(h), submit the results of your research demonstrating: 1. The book is not subject to "normal commercial exploitation." Basically, this means that nobody is making money by selling the book, i.e., in new or used bookstores. 2. The book cannot be obtained at a "reasonable price." You can demonstrate both by searching libraries, new and used book vendors (i.e., amazon.com) and antiquarian book services (i.e., abebooks.com) to see whether the book is available and, if so, for a reasonable price. Our rules of thumb: - Copies of the book cost over $100. or are otherwise considered rare - Research indicates fewer than 100 copies of the book are available for sale - The book is largely unavailable in libraries (i.e., for free loan), with fewer than 100 circulating copies in US libraries Submit the outcome of your research, along with the usual title page and verso scans, via http://beryl.ils.unc.edu/copy.html For library research, use the online catalogs at locations such as the public libraries in NY, Chicago and San Franscisco, and large University libraries such as Berkeley, Harvard and Urbana-Champaign. Under this rule, your physical location is irrelevant -- so, if the NY Public has the only surviving copy and you live in Queens, that doesn't mean you are ineligible to ask for Section 108(h) exemption. Here is the text of Title 17 Section 108(h) of the United States Code. For the complete code, visit http://thomas.loc.gov or http://www4.law.cornell.edu Section 108: (h)(1) For purposes of this section, during the last 20 years of any term of copyright of a published work, a library or archives, including a nonprofit educational institution that functions as such, may reproduce, distribute, display, or perform in facsimile or digital form a copy or phonorecord of such work, or portions thereof, for purposes of preservation, scholarship, or research, if such library or archives has first determined, on the basis of a reasonable investigation, that none of the conditions set forth in subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C) of paragraph (2) apply. (2) No reproduction, distribution, display, or performance is authorized under this subsection if- (A) the work is subject to normal commercial exploitation; (B) a copy or phonorecord of the work can be obtained at a reasonable price; or (C) the copyright owner or its agent provides notice pursuant to regulations promulgated by the Register of Copyrights that either of the conditions set forth in subparagraphs (A) and (B) applies. (3) The exemption provided in this subsection does not apply to any subsequent uses by users other than such library or archives. Most recently updated June 22 2003 by gbn From realmjit at yahoo.com Thu May 5 10:58:13 2005 From: realmjit at yahoo.com (Mjit Raindancer-Stahl) Date: Thu May 5 10:58:21 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Fwd: virus laden spam going around Message-ID: <20050505175813.82037.qmail@web30215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is a form letter that I am sending to everyone in my address book. --M --- Mjit Raindancer-Stahl wrote: > I have been receiving virus-laden spam to my yahoo account with > mildly disturbing "from" and "subject" fields. The size of these is around 72K > > from today: > postmaster@ houston.rr.com -- FwD: Your Password > register@ merit-lilin.de -- mailing error > hostmaster@ dataactivity.com -- Your email was blocked > webmaster@ cybercoders.com -- Your email was blocked > webmaster@ fetishalliance.net -- Re: [blank] > stephierocks39@ hotmail.com -- Re: [blank] > register@ ntlworld.com -- Your email was blocked > MidnightAuction@ aol.com -- Re: [blank] > SlicRick64@ aol.com -- Re: [blank] > > I find it disturbing that my mail is being blocked even though > I am not the source of these e-mails. I have run virus-checkers > on both machines that I use to check my mail, and the virus is > not present. I don't send mail from this account more than once > every couple of weeks, and I only send an attachment about > once a month, to people who are expecting it from me. > > I'm sure most of you know this, but I will say it anyway: if > you don't have a virus scanner, get one. If you have one, use > it. If some one sends and attachment with 2 file extensions > (example: filename.txt.zip), it's probably a virus. > > Thank you for for not branding me a flaming idiot. M'jit AIM/Yahoo!IM/Ebay: Realmjit realmjit@yahoo.com | answerwitch@gundo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From shimmin at uiuc.edu Thu May 5 14:49:24 2005 From: shimmin at uiuc.edu (Robert Shimmin) Date: Thu May 5 14:49:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: <20050505050027.GA12192@pglaf.org> References: <4262D635.14434.13F7655@localhost> <20050505050027.GA12192@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <427A94E4.8030700@uiuc.edu> > We actually have a draft rule to apply for such orphaned > works, but it is not in place yet because we have not > received sufficient legal guidance for me to feel comfortable > applying it (in case you didn't already know this, as CEO my > main most important role, though not usually one that takes the > most of my time, is to manage PGLAF's risk. The majority of > our risk comes from decisions we make about the copyright status > of works we distribute). Is the delay because you have insufficient legal advice as to whether PGLAF is indeed a "library or archive," insufficient advice as to whether web distribution is one of the exempt activities in 108(h), or insufficient advice as to whether the "reasonable price" tests mentioned in the draft policy are duly diligent. -- RS From gbnewby at pglaf.org Thu May 5 22:45:44 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Thu May 5 22:45:46 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: <427A94E4.8030700@uiuc.edu> References: <4262D635.14434.13F7655@localhost> <20050505050027.GA12192@pglaf.org> <427A94E4.8030700@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <20050506054544.GA27729@pglaf.org> On Thu, May 05, 2005 at 04:49:24PM -0500, Robert Shimmin wrote: > >We actually have a draft rule to apply for such orphaned > >works, but it is not in place yet because we have not > >received sufficient legal guidance for me to feel comfortable > >applying it (in case you didn't already know this, as CEO my > >main most important role, though not usually one that takes the > >most of my time, is to manage PGLAF's risk. The majority of > >our risk comes from decisions we make about the copyright status > >of works we distribute). > > Is the delay because you have insufficient legal advice as to whether > PGLAF is indeed a "library or archive," insufficient advice as to > whether web distribution is one of the exempt activities in 108(h), or > insufficient advice as to whether the "reasonable price" tests mentioned > in the draft policy are duly diligent. > > -- RS All of the above, to some extent. When PG makes decisions about copyright, we do so using guidance received from our volunteer legal advisors. That is, lawyers -- including people like law school professors, law librarians and specialists in intellectual property issues. There have been over 1/2 dozen such advisors over the years, and numerous people who have contributed to individual efforts. The outcomes are evident in our license/header, as well as our copyright rules -- both of which have evolved quite a bit since the first versions in the early 1990s. Since our lawyers are volunteers, it's sometimes hard to get them to respond. It's doubly hard when issues are vague, as with the 108(h) exemptions. I hope that the LoC ruling will provide guidance we can follow, and that it results in "freeing" many orphaned works. -- Greg From beacybooks at bigpond.com Fri May 6 07:09:41 2005 From: beacybooks at bigpond.com (Tom Harris) Date: Fri May 6 07:09:49 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] OK to correct a text with post-1923 editions? References: <20050502151924.68947.qmail@web41613.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01f501c55245$3f3bc570$0f5b8b90@tombr8f71av6f6> I have a question relation to correcting a pre-1923 edition with a post 1923 edition. I know that where the corrections are minor this is OK. But what if the post-1923 edition adds a few footnotes to the text, by an editor. Are these OK to add in? In addition, what happens if the pre-1923 edition is a severely edited version of the true work, which, although written in the 1860's, only saw publication in full in the 1960's. I realise that the new introduction, notes etc. by the editor cannot be included, but is the text OK? These questions occurred to me as I examined the 3 editions of the Autobiography of Charles Darwin. His views on religion were so distasteful to his family that they were elided from the text, and not available in print for a century! Regards Tom Harris BeacyBooks beacybooks@bigpond.com From prosfilaes at gmail.com Fri May 6 07:19:30 2005 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Fri May 6 07:19:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] OK to correct a text with post-1923 editions? In-Reply-To: <01f501c55245$3f3bc570$0f5b8b90@tombr8f71av6f6> References: <20050502151924.68947.qmail@web41613.mail.yahoo.com> <01f501c55245$3f3bc570$0f5b8b90@tombr8f71av6f6> Message-ID: <6d99d1fd0505060719269c208c@mail.gmail.com> On 5/6/05, Tom Harris wrote: > I have a question relation to correcting a pre-1923 edition with a post 1923 > edition. Assuming, in my response, that the post-1923 edtion is out of copyright, or at least will be treated that way. > I know that where the corrections are minor this is OK. But what if the > post-1923 edition adds a few footnotes to the text, by an editor. Are these > OK to add in? No. Definitly not. > In addition, what happens if the pre-1923 edition is a severely edited > version of the true work, which, although written in the 1860's, only saw > publication in full in the 1960's. I realise that the new introduction, > notes etc. by the editor cannot be included, but is the text OK? No. If it only saw publication in the 1960's, the clock on the copyright on that text started in the 1960s. From beacybooks at bigpond.com Fri May 6 08:12:49 2005 From: beacybooks at bigpond.com (Tom Harris) Date: Fri May 6 08:13:04 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] OK to correct a text with post-1923 editions? References: <20050502151924.68947.qmail@web41613.mail.yahoo.com><01f501c55245$3f3bc570$0f5b8b90@tombr8f71av6f6> <6d99d1fd0505060719269c208c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <020601c5524e$1110fd60$0f5b8b90@tombr8f71av6f6> David, Thanks for the concise reply. This means that the1960's text will be OK if hosted in a country with life+70 copyright, such as Australia, since the original author is well dead. Is this correct? Regards Tom Harris BeacyBooks beacybooks@bigpond.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Starner" To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 12:19 AM Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] OK to correct a text with post-1923 editions? On 5/6/05, Tom Harris wrote: > I have a question relation to correcting a pre-1923 edition with a post > 1923 > edition. Assuming, in my response, that the post-1923 edtion is out of copyright, or at least will be treated that way. > I know that where the corrections are minor this is OK. But what if the > post-1923 edition adds a few footnotes to the text, by an editor. Are > these > OK to add in? No. Definitly not. > In addition, what happens if the pre-1923 edition is a severely edited > version of the true work, which, although written in the 1860's, only saw > publication in full in the 1960's. I realise that the new introduction, > notes etc. by the editor cannot be included, but is the text OK? No. If it only saw publication in the 1960's, the clock on the copyright on that text started in the 1960s. _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From prosfilaes at gmail.com Fri May 6 08:27:20 2005 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Fri May 6 08:27:33 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] OK to correct a text with post-1923 editions? In-Reply-To: <020601c5524e$1110fd60$0f5b8b90@tombr8f71av6f6> References: <20050502151924.68947.qmail@web41613.mail.yahoo.com> <01f501c55245$3f3bc570$0f5b8b90@tombr8f71av6f6> <6d99d1fd0505060719269c208c@mail.gmail.com> <020601c5524e$1110fd60$0f5b8b90@tombr8f71av6f6> Message-ID: <6d99d1fd050506082736cbd609@mail.gmail.com> On 5/6/05, Tom Harris wrote: > David, > > Thanks for the concise reply. This means that the1960's text will be OK if > hosted in a country with life+70 copyright, such as Australia, since the > original author is well dead. Is this correct? I believe most life+70 countries give 70 years of copyright to anything first published after the author's death, or at least did. According to Wikipedia, the 1960's text would have got 50 years copyright, plus another 20 since it was under copyright when the extensions went through. From shimmin at uiuc.edu Fri May 6 09:09:55 2005 From: shimmin at uiuc.edu (Robert Shimmin) Date: Fri May 6 09:10:01 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] OK to correct a text with post-1923 editions? In-Reply-To: <6d99d1fd050506082736cbd609@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050502151924.68947.qmail@web41613.mail.yahoo.com> <01f501c55245$3f3bc570$0f5b8b90@tombr8f71av6f6> <6d99d1fd0505060719269c208c@mail.gmail.com> <020601c5524e$1110fd60$0f5b8b90@tombr8f71av6f6> <6d99d1fd050506082736cbd609@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <427B96D3.6050001@uiuc.edu> >>David, >> >>Thanks for the concise reply. This means that the1960's text will be OK if >>hosted in a country with life+70 copyright, such as Australia, since the >>original author is well dead. Is this correct? > > > I believe most life+70 countries give 70 years of copyright to > anything first published after the author's death, or at least did. > According to Wikipedia, the 1960's text would have got 50 years > copyright, plus another 20 since it was under copyright when the > extensions went through. At least in the Commonwealth, the copyright regime used to be life+50, or 50 years for posthumous and anonymous works. But it has become fashionable of late to (1) do away with the fixed-term protection for posthumous works; and (2) extend copyright terms another 20 years. Depending on the order in which these operations were applied, and other details that vary from country to country, a posthumous edition published in the 1960s might hit the PD in the 2010s or the 2030s. -- RS From hart at pglaf.org Fri May 6 11:29:13 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Fri May 6 11:29:15 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: <427A94E4.8030700@uiuc.edu> References: <4262D635.14434.13F7655@localhost> <20050505050027.GA12192@pglaf.org> <427A94E4.8030700@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2005, Robert Shimmin wrote: >> We actually have a draft rule to apply for such orphaned >> works, but it is not in place yet because we have not >> received sufficient legal guidance for me to feel comfortable >> applying it (in case you didn't already know this, as CEO my >> main most important role, though not usually one that takes the >> most of my time, is to manage PGLAF's risk. The majority of >> our risk comes from decisions we make about the copyright status >> of works we distribute). > > Is the delay because you have insufficient legal advice as to whether PGLAF > is indeed a "library or archive," insufficient advice as to whether web > distribution is one of the exempt activities in 108(h), or insufficient > advice as to whether the "reasonable price" tests mentioned in the draft > policy are duly diligent. We have received very good conservative legal advice that Project Gutenberg is indeed a library or archive, and probably both, and has been for over a decade. The risk we worry about concerns how well we do our copyright research for eBook we label as public domain. Even if we are 99.99% accurate, that means we have likely at least one mistake in our listings. I am not a lawyer. . .this is NOT a legal opinion or legal advice. IANAL = I am not a lawyer. mh From rvijay07 at myway.com Fri May 6 13:25:17 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Fri May 6 13:25:31 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Selling/Promoting The Gutenberg Project. Message-ID: <20050506202517.A5F0E12CCA@mprdmxin.myway.com> Hi everyone: I am a new commer to this group. Please share any thoughts/comments in regards to selling/promoting the Gutenberg Project. Thanks in advance. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From collin at xs4all.nl Fri May 6 14:08:34 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Fri May 6 13:56:09 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Selling/Promoting The Gutenberg Project. In-Reply-To: <20050506202517.A5F0E12CCA@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <427BF8F2.10541.109CE50@localhost> On 6 May 2005, at 16:25, rvijay07 wrote: > I am a new commer to this group. Please share any thoughts/comments in > regards to selling/promoting the Gutenberg Project. I do not think there is a coordinated effort. If you can come up with a good way to market PG, all the best to you. IIRC, there was some discussion at Distributed Proofreaders of leaving notes in library books. Selling Project Gutenberg books (literally!) can of course also be a good method of promotion. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From collin at xs4all.nl Fri May 6 18:31:48 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Fri May 6 18:19:31 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] OK to correct a text with post-1923 editions? In-Reply-To: <020601c5524e$1110fd60$0f5b8b90@tombr8f71av6f6> Message-ID: <427C36A4.19950.1FAD7A8@localhost> On 7 May 2005, at 1:12, Tom Harris wrote: > Thanks for the concise reply. This means that the1960's text will be > OK if hosted in a country with life+70 copyright, such as Australia, > since the original author is well dead. Is this correct? Not necessarily. Some of these jurisdictions have copyrights for previously unpublished works. You will have to find out what the law of the land says to be sure. For instance, Dutch copyright law reserves 25 years for the publisher (see for a small discussion of the law.) IANAL. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From collin at xs4all.nl Fri May 6 18:42:37 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Fri May 6 18:30:15 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: <20050505050027.GA12192@pglaf.org> References: <4262D635.14434.13F7655@localhost> Message-ID: <427C392D.16629.204BDB3@localhost> On 4 May 2005, at 22:00, Greg Newby wrote: > Reminder: please offer comments! I'm planning on getting something in > by the May 9 5:00 pm EDT deadline (it's not May 5 as mentioned) below. > > On Sun, Apr 17, 2005 at 09:33:41PM +0200, Branko Collin wrote: > > The nature of the comments that can still be submitted are "reply > comments." If you find particularly good documents to reply to > (either because they say something great, or something terrible), > please let me know. What I noticed so far is that few comments propose solutions. Many people want strawberry icecream, few are willing to make it. Perhaps this is a useful angle; by pointing out what the author failed to describe, PG can still write its original comment. (I am not going to write it though. I would be willing to edit it, but expect to be busy this weekend.) > > Initially some 700 comments were submitted. It's hard to read > > through all of them, so I suggest Googling for abstracts, looking > > for the usual suspects et cetera. > > I'm looking at http://www.copyright.gov/orphan/comments/ > and only see about 150 comments. Maybe they removed > duplicates (a lot of folks probably submitted some sort > of template)? Still, a lot of reading. I guess I just looked at the last index number (in the file name: OW0721-Duranceau). What's more, I do not see any gaps in the list of numbers. > > There's an unused Wiki running at > > . I suggest > > you use that for sharing notes. > > (Still unused...) Not anymore. I wrote abstracts for 15 comments in an hour. Most of those comments are 1 page affairs (often just a couple of lines in support). > > Do not wait for an official PG position statement. Official > > statements are hard to draft, because they require consensus. Also, > > official statements tend to sound impersonal, exactly because they > > represent a consensus position. There is nothing wrong with sounding > > like you actually care (although I would leave the Hubler-style > > hysterics at home). > > Concur!!! It's OK to just write a brief comment reply that > says you agree with someone, or disagree with someone. It doesn't > need to be a huge essay, and you do not need to be an expert about > copyright. Apparently has a form (again) for submitting replies to the comments. Unfortunately the link doesn't work for me. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From scott_bulkmail at productarchitect.com Sat May 7 05:26:32 2005 From: scott_bulkmail at productarchitect.com (Scott Lawton) Date: Sat May 7 05:27:25 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: <427C392D.16629.204BDB3@localhost> References: <4262D635.14434.13F7655@localhost> <427C392D.16629.204BDB3@localhost> Message-ID: >What I noticed so far is that few comments propose solutions. Many >people want strawberry icecream, few are willing to make it. Perhaps >this is a useful angle; by pointing out what the author failed to >describe, PG can still write its original comment. FWIW, my reply emphasized 2 solutions which are already on the table. A few minutes with Google should suffice to find more details on each. 1. H.R. 2601, which adds an inexpensive renewal requirement [FYI, and not included in my reply, I believe this approach is backed by Lessig and the Creative Commons folks. It's actually a very clever way to give the big companies the long duration they fight for and to also free works that are genuinely orphans.] 2. Mike Godwin of Public Knowledge proposed that copyrighted material could be used prior to expiration if the new user has made a reasonable effort to contact the copyright owner (I favor both.) ... NOTE: it's helpful to put solutions in a little bit of context, even a 1 sentence description of PG and another sentence on what you personally get out of it and/or your vision of its benefit to society. (My reply was from a commercial perspective.) -- Cheers, Scott S. Lawton http://Classicosm.com/ - classic books http://ProductArchitect.com/ - consulting From rvijay07 at myway.com Sat May 7 12:43:30 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sat May 7 12:43:44 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Inactive Download Mirrors. Message-ID: <20050507194330.46D0D397A@mprdmxin.myway.com> I am trying to Download the entire Gutenberg Project ZIP-ISO. All the Canadian Mirrors I tried failed. Perhaps others can also try them and if it confirms my experience then maybe this situation can be corrected or the nonfunctional mirrors be removed from the list. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sat May 7 13:07:07 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sat May 7 13:07:08 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Inactive Download Mirrors. In-Reply-To: <20050507194330.46D0D397A@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050507194330.46D0D397A@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <20050507200707.GA29826@pglaf.org> On Sat, May 07, 2005 at 03:43:30PM -0400, rvijay07 wrote: > > I am trying to Download the entire Gutenberg Project ZIP-ISO. All the Canadian Mirrors I tried failed. Perhaps others can also try them and if it confirms my experience then maybe this situation can be corrected or the nonfunctional mirrors be removed from the list. > > Vijay Thanks, Vijay. Yes, we do cull the mirrors periodically. Some are yo-yos (they come & go), so I try not to remove them as soon as there is an error report. For mirrors that are present but seem under-populated, check the timestamp in the "gutenberg.dcs" file in the main directory. It's updated weekly. If it's outdated, I try to notify the mirror site -- this is often an indication of a broken process, not a decision to stop mirroring. Yes, I know this is something that could all be automated. I think it's on our Webmaster's list for handling eventually. Please include specific details when you find sites that aren't responding, so we don't mistakenly remove the wrong mirror listing. -- Greg From hacker at gnu-designs.com Sat May 7 16:08:35 2005 From: hacker at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Sat May 7 16:08:52 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Inactive Download Mirrors. In-Reply-To: <20050507194330.46D0D397A@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050507194330.46D0D397A@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: > I am trying to Download the entire Gutenberg Project ZIP-ISO. All > the Canadian Mirrors I tried failed. Perhaps others can also try > them and if it confirms my experience then maybe this situation can > be corrected or the nonfunctional mirrors be removed from the list. I've had exceptional luck (and speed) with the following rsync mirror: gutenberg.mirror.cygnal.ca::gutenberg David A. Desrosiers desrod@gnu-designs.com http://gnu-designs.com From collin at xs4all.nl Sat May 7 16:46:41 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Sat May 7 16:34:16 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: References: <427A94E4.8030700@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <427D6F81.6329.25CB924@localhost> On 6 May 2005, at 11:29, Michael Hart wrote: > We have received very good conservative legal advice that Project > Gutenberg is indeed a library or archive, and probably both, and has > been for over a decade. "Likewise, he encouraged libraries to "push back against the easy assertion that Project Gutenberg is a library."" (I am not sure what that person was on about though. Full article at .) -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sat May 7 17:25:05 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sat May 7 17:25:06 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: <427D6F81.6329.25CB924@localhost> References: <427A94E4.8030700@uiuc.edu> <427D6F81.6329.25CB924@localhost> Message-ID: <20050508002505.GA8236@pglaf.org> On Sun, May 08, 2005 at 01:46:41AM +0200, Branko Collin wrote: > > On 6 May 2005, at 11:29, Michael Hart wrote: > > > We have received very good conservative legal advice that Project > > Gutenberg is indeed a library or archive, and probably both, and has > > been for over a decade. > > "Likewise, he encouraged libraries to "push back against the easy > assertion that Project Gutenberg is a library."" > > (I am not sure what that person was on about though. Full article at > d>.) Also, the IRS has us classified as a library for our not-for-profit status. It's a particular classification under section 501(c) of the IRS code that I'm too lazy to find - it's in our (=PGLAF) official IRS letter. This isn't something I feel a need to argue about. -- Greg From aotg20 at dsl.pipex.com Sun May 8 00:51:31 2005 From: aotg20 at dsl.pipex.com (Richard Poynder) Date: Sun May 8 00:51:56 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: <427D6F81.6329.25CB924@localhost> Message-ID: <20050508075134.8DC60E0000EC@astro.systems.pipex.net> > On 6 May 2005, at 11:29, Michael Hart wrote: > > > We have received very good conservative legal advice that Project > > Gutenberg is indeed a library or archive, and probably > both, and has > > been for over a decade. Branko Collin wrote: > "Likewise, he encouraged libraries to "push back against the > easy assertion that Project Gutenberg is a library."" > > (I am not sure what that person was on about though. Full article at > d>.) He seemed to be claiming that people cannot make full use of books without the assistance of traditional "gatekeepers" like publishers, teachers and librarians. Since it does not provide these kinds of intermediaries to help readers understand the books it offers he therefore appears to have concluded that PG cannot be called a library. Richard Poynder www.richardpoynder.com From holden.mcgroin at dsl.pipex.com Sun May 8 04:52:43 2005 From: holden.mcgroin at dsl.pipex.com (Holden McGroin) Date: Sun May 8 04:52:42 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Selling/Promoting The Gutenberg Project. In-Reply-To: <20050506202517.A5F0E12CCA@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050506202517.A5F0E12CCA@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <427DFD8B.9040509@dsl.pipex.com> rvijay07 wrote: > Hi everyone: > > I am a new commer to this group. Please share any thoughts/comments in regards to selling/promoting the Gutenberg Project. A nice idea would be to place a search box on the front page to make it obvious that PG does actually give away books :-) Cheers, Holden From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Sun May 8 05:30:58 2005 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Sun May 8 05:31:23 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Selling/Promoting The Gutenberg Project. In-Reply-To: <20050506202517.A5F0E12CCA@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050506202517.A5F0E12CCA@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 May 2005 16:25:17 -0400 (EDT), "rvijay07" wrote: | | Hi everyone: | | I am a new commer to this group. Please share any thoughts/comments in regards to selling/promoting the Gutenberg Project. If everyone used a PG sig on whatever usenet newsgroups they are subscribed to it would cost nothing and get to many people. -- Dave Fawthrop 12,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! http://www.gutenberg.net For Yorkshire Dialect go to www.hyphenologist.co.uk/songs/ From collin at xs4all.nl Sun May 8 06:13:19 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Sun May 8 06:00:44 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: <427C392D.16629.204BDB3@localhost> References: <20050505050027.GA12192@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <427E2C8F.24339.6D24E3@localhost> On 7 May 2005, at 3:42, Branko Collin wrote: > On 4 May 2005, at 22:00, Greg Newby wrote: > > > > There's an unused Wiki running at > > > . I suggest > > > you use that for sharing notes. > > > > (Still unused...) > > Not anymore. I wrote abstracts for 15 comments in an hour. Most of > those comments are 1 page affairs (often just a couple of lines in > support). I have added twenty more, but do not think I will do more than that. I'll take requests, though. Are there any comments where you feel we should reply? -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From marcello at perathoner.de Sun May 8 07:02:38 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Sun May 8 07:02:44 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Selling/Promoting The Gutenberg Project. In-Reply-To: <427DFD8B.9040509@dsl.pipex.com> References: <20050506202517.A5F0E12CCA@mprdmxin.myway.com> <427DFD8B.9040509@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <427E1BFE.30507@perathoner.de> Holden McGroin wrote: >> I am a new commer to this group. Please share any thoughts/comments in >> regards to selling/promoting the Gutenberg Project. > > A nice idea would be to place a search box on the front page to make it > obvious that PG does actually give away books :-) That's a problem of screen real estate. Most new people come from google and land on a bibrec page anyway. People who come back already know it. But we could change the opening text to: PG gives away 15.000 books for free. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From sly at victoria.tc.ca Sun May 8 08:25:09 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Sun May 8 08:25:17 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Selling/Promoting The Gutenberg Project. In-Reply-To: References: <20050506202517.A5F0E12CCA@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005, Dave Fawthrop wrote: > If everyone used a PG sig on whatever usenet newsgroups they are subscribed > to it would cost nothing and get to many people. > I believe there is a decent amount of awareness already. For quite a while now, I've regularly searched newsgroups for mentions of Project Gutenberg. In general, I would say that messages I used to find were along the lines of "Here's a really worthwhile project you ought to check out...", whereas today, I find more reference to specific works relating to the disscussion at hand that "you can find at Project Gutenberg". Some people are even nice enough to provide a link. :) I've also used this try to be a "goodwill ambassador" and correct any misconceptions. (i.e. "they use only plain ASCII, so can't do any French texts.") Andrew From rvijay07 at myway.com Sun May 8 08:52:36 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sun May 8 08:52:44 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] ISO CD Problem. Message-ID: <20050508155236.277BD39CC@mprdmxin.myway.com> I got the ISO ZIP image CD from the Gutenberg Project: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/11220 It consists of several data files but all as an ISO image. I burned it using k3b as a data CD. However, the burned image on the CD still remains as one large ISO. I am unable to see the individual files. I checked the md5sum for both the zipped and unzipped ISO. They are OK. Please assist. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Sun May 8 10:08:13 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sun May 8 10:08:22 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Selling/Promoting The Gutenberg Project. Message-ID: <20050508170813.805B13970@mprdmxin.myway.com> Every idea has to be sold. For eg., for a child to get a pen from his/her Father, he/she has to sell/promote the idea first. Promoting/Selling the Gutenberg project is a great idea, as with more interest there are more chances for volunteers etc., etc., Here is how I sold the Gutenberg Project to a coworker. He has kids but was unaware of the Gutenberg Project. I sent him an E-Mail saying that the Gutenberg project(GP) offers a HUGE COLLECTION of fairy tales and bed time stories for children all for FREE. This got him to explore the project. Next day at work we was smiling and was very happy with my suggestion. There is so much info./free stuff on the net. Everyone gets bombarded all the time. So being specific helps in promoting anything. For eg., to a History student I will E-Mail him a link with a Gutenberg Project History Book and also ask him to check out the project home page and other books that may interest him. Here are my ideas to promote the project: (1) While discussing specific topics on the net and in E-Mails, include the GP Free E-Books Links (2) Suggest the Project to atleast one new person a weekly or monthly. (There are still several who are unaware of this project). (3) Giving FREE Gutenberg CDs locally to people who will actually use them. I am also looking forward to suggestions from others in this regard. Regards, Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Sun May 8 10:12:39 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sun May 8 10:12:58 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Inactive Download Mirrors. Message-ID: <20050508171239.88DBA397A@mprdmxin.myway.com> Here are the mirrors that didn't work for me: 1. ftp://gutenberg.mirror.cyngal.ca 2. http://gutenberg.mirror.cyngal.ca 3. ftp://sunsite.ualberta.ca 4. ftp://ftp.samurai.com _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From andrew at andrewr.co.uk Sun May 8 10:15:14 2005 From: andrew at andrewr.co.uk (Andrew Rendle) Date: Sun May 8 10:15:22 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] ISO CD Problem. In-Reply-To: <20050508155236.277BD39CC@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050508155236.277BD39CC@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <427E4922.7060805@andrewr.co.uk> rvijay07 wrote: > > I got the ISO ZIP image CD from the Gutenberg Project: > http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/11220 > > It consists of several data files but all as an ISO image. > > I burned it using k3b as a data CD. However, the burned image on the CD still remains as one large ISO. I am unable to see the individual files. > > I checked the md5sum for both the zipped and unzipped ISO. They are OK. > > Please assist. > > Vijay > What you need to do is tell it to use the iso file to create a CD, not write the iso file to a CD as a file. (Who hasn't wasted a few CD-Rs doing that? :-/ ) An iso contains an image of an entire disc i.e. many files, directory structure, etc. A CD with the .iso file on it is a very different beast to a CD with the contents of that file. I think what you need to do in k3b is go Tools->CD->Burn CD Image. Andrew From rvijay07 at myway.com Sun May 8 10:24:47 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sun May 8 10:25:16 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Digital Library of India Message-ID: <20050508172447.E17163983@mprdmxin.myway.com> Here is another online Library. http://dli.ernet.in/ Can e-books from this or another similar online project directly be transferred to the Gutenberg Project ? Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sun May 8 11:52:59 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sun May 8 11:53:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: <427E2C8F.24339.6D24E3@localhost> References: <20050505050027.GA12192@pglaf.org> <427E2C8F.24339.6D24E3@localhost> Message-ID: <20050508185259.GD15394@pglaf.org> On Sun, May 08, 2005 at 03:13:19PM +0200, Branko Collin wrote: > > On 7 May 2005, at 3:42, Branko Collin wrote: > > On 4 May 2005, at 22:00, Greg Newby wrote: > > > > > > There's an unused Wiki running at > > > > . I suggest > > > > you use that for sharing notes. > > > > > > (Still unused...) > > > > Not anymore. I wrote abstracts for 15 comments in an hour. Most of > > those comments are 1 page affairs (often just a couple of lines in > > support). > > I have added twenty more, but do not think I will do more than that. > I'll take requests, though. Are there any comments where you feel we > should reply? Were you thinking of putting these into some sort of formal response document? Or, are they just grist for others who might want to write their own comments? I'm trying to work on this today (nothing like the last minute...), and the comments are quite useful. I did not find any specific guidance for how to write responses -- did you? In the past, I've seen guidelines about (a) needing to reference particularly items you are responding to, and (b) some sort of size limitations. - One aspect I'm interested in is creation of derivative works. - Another is for people like us who really, really want to follow the copyright law, but identify all these challenges and vague aspects, and that the public domain has been dramatically shrinking (as a proportion of all available works). - Did you see anyone with a specific plan, like our Rule 9 HOWTO? I think our Rule 9 is relevant, but it's only about section 108(h) -- and there are some broader issues in Title 17 that the copyright office is looking at. *Thanks* for any additional analysis you can provide. I do hope that people are thinking of sending a response, even a brief one. -- Greg From rvijay07 at myway.com Sun May 8 12:00:18 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sun May 8 12:00:28 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] ISO CD Problem. Message-ID: <20050508190018.3AE0D3949@mprdmxin.myway.com> Thanks. This solved the problem. Vijay :) --- On Sun 05/08, Andrew Rendle < andrew@andrewr.co.uk > wrote: From: Andrew Rendle [mailto: andrew@andrewr.co.uk] To: rvijay07@myway.com, gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 18:15:14 +0100 Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] ISO CD Problem. rvijay07 wrote:
>
> I got the ISO ZIP image CD from the Gutenberg Project:
> http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/11220
>
> It consists of several data files but all as an ISO image.
>
> I burned it using k3b as a data CD. However, the burned image on the CD still remains as one large ISO. I am unable to see the individual files.
>
> I checked the md5sum for both the zipped and unzipped ISO. They are OK.
>
> Please assist.
>
> Vijay
>

What you need to do is tell it to use the iso file to create a CD, not
write the iso file to a CD as a file. (Who hasn't wasted a few CD-Rs
doing that? :-/ )
An iso contains an image of an entire disc i.e. many files, directory
structure, etc. A CD with the .iso file on it is a very different beast
to a CD with the contents of that file.
I think what you need to do in k3b is go Tools->CD->Burn CD Image.

Andrew
_______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Sun May 8 12:16:27 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sun May 8 12:16:38 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Special ISO CD Collections Suggestion. Message-ID: <20050508191627.7FBB13944@mprdmxin.myway.com> I got the CD Best of Gutenberg. It is good. However, I also got another idea from the same. How about creating other similar ISO images on different subject, languages and the the entire collection ? For eg., Subjectwise ISO: A CD ISO Image with just Fairy Tales etc., for Children Language Wise ISO: A CD ISO with all the French E-Books Other: A DVD ISO with all the Audio Books ENTIRE COLLECTION: E-Books 1 to 600 as one ISO image and the next 60o books as anotehr ISO image and so on. (That way those with CD Burners can also take the full advantage of the collection.) Thanks. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Sun May 8 12:31:15 2005 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Sun May 8 12:32:20 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Digital Library of India In-Reply-To: <20050508172447.E17163983@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050508172447.E17163983@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005 13:24:47 -0400 (EDT), "rvijay07" wrote: | | Here is another online Library. | | http://dli.ernet.in/ | | Can e-books from this or another similar online project directly be transferred to the Gutenberg Project ? Have we got a volunteer who reads the languages, and can display the alphabets? Are you volunteering? -- Dave F From hacker at gnu-designs.com Sun May 8 12:39:41 2005 From: hacker at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Sun May 8 12:40:50 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Inactive Download Mirrors. In-Reply-To: <20050508171239.88DBA397A@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050508171239.88DBA397A@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: > 1. ftp://gutenberg.mirror.cyngal.ca > 2. http://gutenberg.mirror.cyngal.ca rsync works great on cygnal.ca, and should be your primary mirroring method anyway, to reduce load, latency and bandwidth on your end as well as the remote server's end. David A. Desrosiers desrod@gnu-designs.com http://gnu-designs.com From collin at xs4all.nl Sun May 8 12:53:36 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Sun May 8 12:41:04 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: <20050508185259.GD15394@pglaf.org> References: <427E2C8F.24339.6D24E3@localhost> Message-ID: <427E8A60.24296.1DBA982@localhost> On 8 May 2005, at 11:52, Greg Newby wrote: > On Sun, May 08, 2005 at 03:13:19PM +0200, Branko Collin wrote: > > On 7 May 2005, at 3:42, Branko Collin wrote: > > > On 4 May 2005, at 22:00, Greg Newby wrote: > > > > > > > > There's an unused Wiki running at > > > > > . I > > > > > suggest you use that for sharing notes. > > > > > > > > (Still unused...) > > > > > > Not anymore. I wrote abstracts for 15 comments in an hour. Most of > > > those comments are 1 page affairs (often just a couple of lines in > > > support). > > > > I have added twenty more, but do not think I will do more than that. > > I'll take requests, though. Are there any comments where you feel we > > should reply? > > Were you thinking of putting these into some sort of formal > response document? Nope. > Or, are they just grist for others who > might want to write their own comments? Yep. > I'm trying to work on this today (nothing like the last minute...), > and the comments are quite useful. I did not find any specific > guidance for how to write responses -- did you? I did, lemme check. (/me rummages on the web...) Ah, the page with the 700-something comments says: "Parties who wish to submit reply comments should follow the instructions set forth in the Notice of Inquiry and summarized here. The deadline for reply comments is 5:00 p.m. EDT on May 9, 2005." "Summarized here" is linked to . Same rules as before, except now you should mark your document as "reply comment". > In the past, I've > seen guidelines about (a) needing to reference particularly items you > are responding to, and (b) some sort of size limitations. Check the webpages I linked to, please. > - One aspect I'm interested in is creation of derivative works. > > - Another is for people like us who really, really want to follow the > copyright law, but identify all these challenges and vague aspects, > and that the public domain has been dramatically shrinking (as a > proportion of all available works). I have seen one or two of those... http://www.copyright.gov/orphan/comments/OW0032-WSCA-FM.pdf wants to do the right thing, IIRC, but is hindered by the law. Yet he sees infringement all around him, apparently going on unpunished. > - Did you see anyone with a specific plan, like our Rule 9 HOWTO? I > think our Rule 9 is relevant, but it's only about section 108(h) -- > and there are some broader issues in Title 17 that the copyright > office is looking at. I have only looked at some 40 documents, so little over ten percent of all the comments. So far, however, I have seen no specific guidelines of how to deal with tracking down copyright holders. See my list though for "librarian", "professor", those sort of folks, who generally came up with slightly specific proposals. Also, look out for the usual suspects. Perhaps you can say something about (or in support of) JM Ockerbloom's comment. It appears the Center for Internet and Society at Stanford () has been mailing out calls for reply comments to well-known copyfighters, asking them to perform specific tasks. (Or so it appears from Rik Lambers' Consitutional Code blog.) Perhaps they have a better overview of who wrote what. > *Thanks* for any additional analysis you can provide. I do > hope that people are thinking of sending a response, even > a brief one. I'll try and dig specific comments for you that are relevant to us. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From Bowerbird at aol.com Sun May 8 12:41:15 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sun May 8 12:41:29 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Special ISO CD Collections Suggestion. Message-ID: <12f.5cd29152.2fafc55b@aol.com> vijay said: > I also got another idea from the same. > How about creating other similar ISO images > on different subject, languages and the the entire collection great idea! and one that's been suggested before, many times. the people here don't seem capable of implementing it, though. you'll find it has been put into play over at www.samizdat.com with the caveat that discs are for sale, not free for the taking. -bowerbird From jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com Sun May 8 12:45:05 2005 From: jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com (Jonathan Ingram) Date: Sun May 8 12:45:15 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Digital Library of India In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050508194505.99287.qmail@web41723.mail.yahoo.com> --- rvijay07 wrote: > > Here is another online Library. > > http://dli.ernet.in/ > > Can e-books from this or another similar online project directly be > transferred to the Gutenberg Project ? It looks like it's another consumer of texts from the Million Book Project. >From a brief glance, it seems quite hard to get material from that site, so we'll probably carry on harvesting the Internet Archive's collection, available here -- http://http://www.archive.org/details/millionbooks -- Jon Ingram Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ From rvijay07 at myway.com Sun May 8 14:15:54 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sun May 8 14:16:09 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Digital Library of India Message-ID: <20050508211554.DC2EB12CE6@mprdmxin.myway.com> I just came across this great site/idea: http://gutenberg.cc/Public.htm Perhaps http://dli.ernet.in can be just added there as a link ? I do know Tamil and a little bit of Hindi(used to read a long time ago but out of touch). However, this project is directly financed by the Govt. of India, with several persons of repute contributing their time/expertise. Hence, I expect this project to grow quite significantly. Even a few volunteers can't keep up with this project. Vijay --- On Sun 05/08, Dave Fawthrop < hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk > wrote: From: Dave Fawthrop [mailto: hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk] To: rvijay07@myway.com, gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 20:31:15 +0100 Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Digital Library of India On Sun, 8 May 2005 13:24:47 -0400 (EDT), "rvijay07"
wrote:

|
| Here is another online Library.
|
| http://dli.ernet.in/
|
| Can e-books from this or another similar online project directly be transferred to the Gutenberg Project ?

Have we got a volunteer who reads the languages, and can display the
alphabets?
Are you volunteering?

--
Dave F

_______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From geoff.horton at gmail.com Sun May 8 14:23:05 2005 From: geoff.horton at gmail.com (Geoff Horton) Date: Sun May 8 14:23:16 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Digital Library of India In-Reply-To: <20050508211554.DC2EB12CE6@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050508211554.DC2EB12CE6@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <94e5f596050508142353df840c@mail.gmail.com> <> Perhaps not. But Project Gutenberg is, as far as I can tell, pretty much of the "if you want it done, you'd better do it yourself" mindset (which is fine by me). In other words, don't expect someone else to do it if you don't want to. From Bowerbird at aol.com Sun May 8 14:32:53 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sun May 8 14:33:07 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Digital Library of India Message-ID: <1a7.37622619.2fafdf85@aol.com> vijay said: > I just came across this great site/idea: > http://gutenberg.cc/Public.htm > Perhaps http://dli.ernet.in can be just added there as a link ? i would think that's precisely what michael hart had in mind with that new project of his... and yes, it is a great idea... the logical extension of his earlier invention of the e-book, collecting them as a library... except the extension had to endure a mere 20 months (or so) of flack, not 20 years, like his earlier one... -bowerbird From rvijay07 at myway.com Sun May 8 14:36:31 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sun May 8 14:36:45 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Digital Library of India Message-ID: <20050508213631.6877F12CE4@mprdmxin.myway.com> This is certainly good policy. I was just sharing general suggestions/ideas. I am a newbie to this project. Heard of it over two years ago or so, started using it a few weeks ago. Then joined the mailing list. Now I really like the idea behind this project. For now I made 10 extra CDs of the Best E-Books ISO and intend to share with those close to me who will enjoy/surely use it. I also intend to promote this product by word of mouth (for eg., what did you do over the weekend ? I read a great novel for free, (then provide the link etc.,) and also on the net on message discussions. There are still so many who are not aware of this project, including some students that I have met. If each of us encourage one person every week or every month(I plan to do this) to use the Gutenberg Project and he/she in turn encourages others the same way, then I feel automatically there will be more volunteers/resources for this project. Down the road, if I have the time and resources I will certainly do my best to contribute more in other areas. Vijay --- On Sun 05/08, Geoff Horton < geoff.horton@gmail.com > wrote: From: Geoff Horton [mailto: geoff.horton@gmail.com] To: rvijay07@myway.com, gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 17:23:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Digital Library of India <ago but out of touch). However, this project is directly financed by
the Govt. of India, with several persons of repute contributing their
time/expertise. Hence, I expect this project to grow quite
significantly. Even a few volunteers can't keep up with this
project.>>

Perhaps not. But Project Gutenberg is, as far as I can tell, pretty
much of the "if you want it done, you'd better do it yourself" mindset
(which is fine by me). In other words, don't expect someone else to do
it if you don't want to.
_______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Sun May 8 15:21:41 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sun May 8 15:21:58 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Thanks from a Newbie. Message-ID: <20050508222141.9E27A6056D@mprdmxin.myway.com> This is truly a wonderful and noble project. Thanks to Prof. Hart and all the other volunteers here who contribute (or have contributed) to this project. Warm Regards, Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sun May 8 15:33:31 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sun May 8 15:33:33 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Special ISO CD Collections Suggestion. In-Reply-To: <20050508191627.7FBB13944@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050508191627.7FBB13944@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <20050508223331.GA23185@pglaf.org> On Sun, May 08, 2005 at 03:16:27PM -0400, rvijay07 wrote: > > I got the CD Best of Gutenberg. It is good. However, I also got another idea from the same. How about creating other similar ISO images on different subject, languages and the the entire collection ? > > For eg., > Subjectwise ISO: A CD ISO Image with just Fairy Tales etc., for Children > Language Wise ISO: A CD ISO with all the French E-Books > Other: A DVD ISO with all the Audio Books > ENTIRE COLLECTION: E-Books 1 to 600 as one ISO image and the next 60o books as anotehr ISO image and so on. (That way those with CD Burners can also take the full advantage of the collection.) We've done a few of this type, over the years. I am aiming for a few weeks to have a new service to let people automatically select what they want for their own custom CD or DVD image - that will open the door for some new ISOs, based on very easy creation. Today, it's a bit labor intensive to create a new ISO. There is complexity in selecting particular files for an eBook, then you need to make a friendly index page. A few folks have written software for this, but I don't have any of the software - and it pre-dates our XML/RSS catalog format, which is the easiest way to get a current listing of eBooks and their associated files. Anyway, stay tuned... -- Greg From holden.mcgroin at dsl.pipex.com Sun May 8 16:41:00 2005 From: holden.mcgroin at dsl.pipex.com (Holden McGroin) Date: Sun May 8 16:41:16 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Selling/Promoting The Gutenberg Project. In-Reply-To: <427E1BFE.30507@perathoner.de> References: <20050506202517.A5F0E12CCA@mprdmxin.myway.com> <427DFD8B.9040509@dsl.pipex.com> <427E1BFE.30507@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <427EA38C.6040901@dsl.pipex.com> Marcello Perathoner wrote: >>> I am a new commer to this group. Please share any thoughts/comments >>> in regards to selling/promoting the Gutenberg Project. >> >> A nice idea would be to place a search box on the front page to make >> it obvious that PG does actually give away books :-) > > That's a problem of screen real estate. > > Most new people come from google and land on a bibrec page anyway. > > People who come back already know it. Hi! It may be a problem of real estate but I do think that adding a search box to the front page should be a priority. Let me explain myself: the goal of P.G. is to give away free books. Therefore, I find it slightly bizarre that search functionality is omitted from the front page. Surely if our goal is to give away books, a search box should be in a prominent place on the front page? In terms of real estate, I have a small LCD monitor running at 1024x768 (which I believe to be the most common resolution in use today). Of the navigation bar to the left of the screen, the lower (approx.) 45% is blank on my screen. Surely, then, a search box could be placed in the navigation bar? Don't get me wrong, I really do like the P.G. home page. It's just this one omission which causes me problems. With other sites who have a goal to distribute books (e.g. Amazon.com, archive.org), a search box is featured in a prominent position on the main page. The lack of this on P.G.'s site makes it less easily usable given some experience browsing the web. The effect is quite jarring when the user is not (as expected) given an easy-to-find search box and, instead, must actually stop to browse the text on the main page to find some link which might take them to a search box. Perhaps I'm making a mountain out of a molehill but this one feature of P.G.'s home page seems (to me, at least) counter-intuitive. Thanks for your time, Holden From holden.mcgroin at dsl.pipex.com Sun May 8 16:45:44 2005 From: holden.mcgroin at dsl.pipex.com (Holden McGroin) Date: Sun May 8 16:46:01 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] ISO CD Problem. In-Reply-To: <20050508155236.277BD39CC@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050508155236.277BD39CC@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <427EA4A8.9060306@dsl.pipex.com> rvijay07 wrote: > > I got the ISO ZIP image CD from the Gutenberg Project: > http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/11220 > > It consists of several data files but all as an ISO image. > > I burned it using k3b as a data CD. However, the burned image on the CD still remains as one large ISO. I am unable to see the individual files. > > I checked the md5sum for both the zipped and unzipped ISO. They are OK. Hi! You shouldn't burn as a Data CD. In K3b, try this: 1) Open K3b 2) Go to Tools | CD | Burn CD Image... 3) Click the "Open File" icon in the top left 4) Navigate to and select the ISO file 5) Click "Start" Cheers, Holden From rvijay07 at myway.com Sun May 8 17:00:54 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sun May 8 17:01:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Selling/Promoting The Gutenberg Project. Message-ID: <20050509000054.3D57312CD7@mprdmxin.myway.com> I agree with Holden in regards to the search page. Here are other ways of Selling/Promoting the GP: 1. The Gutenberg CD/DVD makes a great FRUGAL GIFT for several occassions. 2. Discuss/mention online whenever there are significant developments at the Gutenberg Project or whenever a exciting title is added that may interest someone or a group of people. 3. Discuss this project in all the sites that discuss Freebies etc., Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sun May 8 21:17:40 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sun May 8 21:17:41 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: <427E2C8F.24339.6D24E3@localhost> References: <20050505050027.GA12192@pglaf.org> <427E2C8F.24339.6D24E3@localhost> Message-ID: <20050509041739.GA30333@pglaf.org> Here's what I've come up with. Branko's analysis of comments was immensely helpful - I never would have been able to incorporate such specific themes without his help. Any ideas, or feedback? I will send this at about 11:00 am AKDT (4:00 pm EDT), unless convinced otherwise. -- Greg -------- To: The Librarian of Congress and the US Copyright Office Date: Monday May 9 2005 Subject: Reply comments to "Orphan Works" inquiry From: Dr. Gregory B. Newby, CEO The Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation 4557 Melan Dr. S. Fairbanks, AK 99712 email: gbnewby AT pglaf.org telephone: 907-450-8663 These reply comments are on behalf of the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation (PGLAF). PGLAF is a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit that operates Project Gutenberg (PG). PG is one of the world's oldest all-electronic information providers, started in 1971 with Michael Hart's creation of an eBook of the US Declaration of Independence. Since Michael Hart's invention of eBooks, he has worked to create a movement for the creation and distribution of free electronic literature. My own involvement, which started in 1992 and became much broader with my accepting the Chairmanship of PGLAF in 2001, has emphasized addressing the technical, social and educational opportunities for the continued growth of PG's collection. Project Gutenberg currently offers over 16,000 titles, nearly all of which are in the public domain in the United States. We are very interested in the topic of Orphaned Works, and welcome The Library of Congress' efforts to understand and meet the special challenges they present. We are pleased to offer reply comments to several of the comments posted to http://www.copyright.gov/orphan/comments/ , and wish to augment or refute several of the claims we have found there. At the outset, we wish to speak to comments without an adequate understanding of existing copyright protection, or who feared that attention to orphaned works would somehow endanger their own creative and artistic output. For example, Mark R. Brown [OW0005-Brown] seems to have confused copyright with contracts, in seeking to require a publisher to return copyright to the author if the publisher elects to take his books out of print. We are sympathetic to this request, but do not think a work in its first years of copyright protection with a currently active publisher is a subject for orphaned works clarification under section 108(h) of Title 17, or the other related themes raised in the Notice of Inquiry. In the comment of Donna L. Beales [OW0009-Beales], we see fears that the law is inadequately protecting the rights of authors. While there are certainly increased opportunities for abuse, thanks in large part to recent technical advances, we strongly believe that existing copyright law is, if anything, too protective of authors. With contemporary copyright periods lasting 95 or 120 years, this is beyond the expected lifetime of contemporary authors. Moreover, our analysis shows that for those items published prior to January 1, 1923 (the current cutoff for items easily demonstrated to be in the public domain), well under 1% are still in print. In other words, there are almost no authors or works that are making any kind of money, or are otherwise benefitting authors, from that period. We believe Ms. Beales is more likely to be interested in better enforcement, and in better means to take action against known infringers. Indeed, although Project Gutenberg focuses on public domain works, we also have several hundred copyrighted works by contemporary authors. We constantly struggle to help these authors to track down and take action to stop infringers from reselling their works without permission. Surprisingly to some, the infringers are usually bona fide publishers or commercial Web sites, including large sites such as eBay and Amazon.com. Our titles by author Sam Vaknin are one example. We support the comments of Donna Daugherty/Christian Recording Studio [OW0013-Daugherty] in the call for better copyright education. Unfortunately, trade associations, notably the MPAA and RIAA, have sought to provide such education in an unbalanced and inaccurate manner. We hope that Ms. Daugherty encourages seeking to educate the public about the historical and legal basis of copyrights for a "limited time," as envisioned by the Founders -- rather than pandering to trade organizations who, for example, misrepresent "fair use" (under Title 17) as piracy, and seek to squash protected activities to further their own profiteering. The comments of Joshua J. Bowman [OW0016-Bowman] support the notion of fair use, and the freeing of orphaned works, as a means to enhance artists' creativity. We concur, and believe there are great numbers of such works. Our analysis of LoC copyright renewal records indicates that from 1923-1988, only about 10% of copyrighted items were renewed (we were surprised to find that the elimination of the requirement for renewal did not lessen the renewal rate). This means that 90% of items from 1923-1964 are public domain, but it takes copyright renewal research to prove it. Such research is described in our copyright "rule 6" at http://gutenberg.org/howto/copyright-howto , and is onerous. Another 90% of items since 1964 were similarly not renewed. How many of these items are still in print, and how many might quality as orphaned works under section 108(h)? We speculate there are at least one million items (primarily books) published since 1964 that would qualify, and another one million from 1923 to 1964 that are in the public domain, but demonstrating their copyright status is difficult. In his comments, David Creighton Samuels [OW0017-Samuels] sees the gold mine for creative work in these millions of items, but fears the mine field of trying to identify which works are truly either public domain (through copyright expiry or non-registration) or orphaned. Based on the high proportion of public domain works and orphaned works, compared to the vanishingly small proportion of works still in print and/or still generating proceeds for their copyright holders, we agree with the many comments that suggested some form of registration for continued copyright protection. Although Congress removed the requirement for renewal in the 1976 copyright act, we do not believe this prevents a requirement for registration against being declared an orphan. Many comments offered suggestions to make this more appealing to copyright holders, such as Garry Jaffe [OW0020-Jaffe] and Steve Rhode [OW0022-Rhode]. We believe that a process that protects both parties against unintentional infringement, such as that suggested by John Michael Williams [OW0010-Williams], can co-exist with copyright protection. Comments by Thomas A. Beckett/Law Offices of Thomas A. Beckett, PLLC [OW0024-Beckett] makes a similar suggestion, but also suggests a shortening of copyright terms. We support such shortening wholeheartedly: at the time of the US's creation, copyright protection lasted for 14 years with one extension. This grew, especially during the 20th century with, amazingly, fourteen separate extensions of copyright terms. The net is that the balance has shifted, so that the proportion of currently sold or widely available items under copyright protection is vastly greater than the proportion of items that are in the public domain, or otherwise available for creative and artistic use. The notion of an "active" rights-holder is very much consistent with our understanding of the Founders' intent. The Founders did not seek to have unlimited copyright terms, or unlimited expansion of copyright terms. Rather, they considered copyright to be an active granting of rights to a copyright holder, which would be balanced by active benefits to the public. The comments of Lawrence Lessig et al./Save The Music and Creative Commons [OW0643-STM-CreativeCommons] speaks to this theme quite well, and we concur with their notion. We suggest that their intentions are particularly appropriate for future shaping of copyright laws, and for the conceptual basis of the LoC's decisions concerning orphaned works. By their nature, most creators of orphaned works are difficult to find (and may be deceased or otherwise unavailable). Thus, we might not be able to expect such an active role for rights-holders from, say, 1964 or prior. Although we have managed to determine non-renewal, and therefore public domain status, for many hundreds of books through our copyright clearance procedures described at http://gutenberg.org/howto/copyright-howto , we have long recognized the difficulty in doing so. Until late 2004, when our eBook #11800, "U.S. Copyright Renewals, 1950 - 1977," became available, there was no free electronic source we know of to look for copyright renewal records. Even with this valuable resource, there are opportunities for error, due to the details and vaguaries of the copyright renewal process. Plus, eBook #11800 only covers books. Because we know how difficult non-renewal research is for books, we are particularly sympathetic to the several comments made about films and radio dramas. Such comments identify that multiple copyright holders (for performance, scores and scripts), along with vast numbers of studios that went out of business or were bought during the golden ages of radio and film, make tracking copyright holders or renewal records nearly impossible. Such comments were offered by John Lovering/WSCA-FM [OW0032-WSCA-FM] Kenn Rabin/Fulcrum Media Services [OW0030-FMS] and Jon Miller [OW0001-Miller], among others. In closing, we would like to echo the calls of comments such as those of Maureen LaWent [OW0033-LaWent], David H. Bailey [OW0026-Bailey] and Alex Krupp [OW0025-Krupp], that support the moral right of the US to foster a vibrant and growing public domain. All persons in the creative arts rely on access to the works of their predecessors to advance. A healthy, accessible and non-threatened public domain is the best possible gift a society can make to itself. Respectfully submitted, Dr. Gregory B. Newby Director and Chief Executive Officer Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation From collin at xs4all.nl Mon May 9 02:11:49 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (collin@xs4all.nl) Date: Mon May 9 02:12:12 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by 'orphan works' In-Reply-To: <20050509041739.GA30333@pglaf.org> References: <20050505050027.GA12192@pglaf.org> <427E2C8F.24339.6D24E3@localhost> <20050509041739.GA30333@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <6191.213.84.199.98.1115629909.squirrel@213.84.199.98> > Here's what I've come up with. Branko's analysis of comments > was immensely helpful - I never would have been able to incorporate > such specific themes without his help. > > Any ideas, or feedback? I will send this at about 11:00 am AKDT > (4:00 pm EDT), unless convinced otherwise. > -- Greg I think it is great. Of course you do manage to make it look like you've only looked at the first 35 comments :-), but I do not think that is necessarily bad: you put those comments in a context that makes clear what is important to PG. I've skimmed over the text at work, so haven't been able to look for errors and typos. However, from what I have seen this text is fine. From geoff.horton at gmail.com Mon May 9 03:17:18 2005 From: geoff.horton at gmail.com (Geoff Horton) Date: Mon May 9 03:17:40 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: <20050509041739.GA30333@pglaf.org> References: <20050505050027.GA12192@pglaf.org> <427E2C8F.24339.6D24E3@localhost> <20050509041739.GA30333@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <94e5f59605050903171126fc33@mail.gmail.com> The grammarian in me revolts at the use of "Plus" as a conjunction, particularly at the beginning of a sentence, but that's a minor nit-pick about an otherwise excellent submission. Geoff From scott_bulkmail at productarchitect.com Mon May 9 08:06:48 2005 From: scott_bulkmail at productarchitect.com (Scott Lawton) Date: Mon May 9 08:23:03 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments, new suggestion In-Reply-To: <427E8A60.24296.1DBA982@localhost> References: <427E2C8F.24339.6D24E3@localhost> <427E8A60.24296.1DBA982@localhost> Message-ID: Branko Collin typed: >Also, look out for the usual suspects. Perhaps you can say something >about (or in support of) JM Ockerbloom's comment. Great idea! In case anyone who is willing to submit a brief comment is still looking for ideas, here's one from JMO's (long and excellent) comment that's worth highlighting: 32, The requirement used in certain other exemptions of copies not being available at a reasonable price should not be a general requirement for the use of orphan works. A few copies of a work on the used market does not substitute for uses such as posting a work online for public access, or performance of a work, or creation of derivative works. To help drive the point home, it would be great if someone has a specific example they could cite, e.g. of a derivative work that's substantially different from print books that are listed on places like Abebooks. It's fine if the actual example uses a public domain work, then points out that the equivalent is not currently legal with orphan works. -- Cheers, Scott S. Lawton http://Classicosm.com/ - classic books http://ProductArchitect.com/ - consulting From jon_niehof at yahoo.com Mon May 9 08:32:20 2005 From: jon_niehof at yahoo.com (Jon Niehof) Date: Mon May 9 08:32:26 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments, new suggestion In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050509153221.82231.qmail@web41612.mail.yahoo.com> > To help drive the point home, it would be great if someone has > a specific example they could cite, e.g. of a derivative work > that's substantially different from print books that are > listed on places like Abebooks. It's fine if the actual > example uses a public domain work, then points out that the > equivalent is not currently legal with orphan works. The Count of Monte Cristo movie comes to mind, and the original work's not even in limited availability. Those parties pushing for ever-expanding copyright are the same who have and continue to benefit from the public domain. They keep taking and refuse to give back. Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html From nwolcott at dsdial.net Mon May 9 09:34:20 2005 From: nwolcott at dsdial.net (N Wolcott) Date: Mon May 9 09:34:40 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Book Submission Requirements Message-ID: <001401c554b4$f961a660$059495ce@gw98> A couple of weeks ago there ws a post here that included the instructions for submitting a book in the case where it did not go through DP. Listed requirements lik??e Guiguts etc. However when I look at www.gutenberg.org the only requirement I see on the submissions page is to be W3C validated if html. Am I missing something and where can I find the full requirements. ?? N Wolcott nwolcott2@post.harvard.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050509/7bae9978/attachment.html From joshua at hutchinson.net Mon May 9 09:44:32 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Mon May 9 09:44:41 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Book Submission Requirements Message-ID: <20050509164432.C1C352F99A@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Hmm... not sure how you missed the information. The FAQ section at http://www.gutenberg.org/faq/ has quite a bit on text formatted works. If you are trying to do a html version as well, the phrase that it must be W3C validatted is about it. That, and the general guidelines of keep it as clean and simple as possible. Overall, HTML is more wide open. Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: "N Wolcott" To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" Subject: [gutvol-d] Book Submission Requirements Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 12:34:20 -0400 > > A couple of weeks ago there ws a post here that included the instructions for > submitting a book in the case where it did not go through DP. Listed > requirements lik??e Guiguts etc. > > However when I look at www.gutenberg.org the only requirement I see on the > submissions page is to be W3C validated if html. Am I missing something and > where can I find the full requirements. ?? > N Wolcott nwolcott2@post.harvard.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From sly at victoria.tc.ca Mon May 9 09:47:50 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Mon May 9 09:47:59 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Book Submission Requirements In-Reply-To: <001401c554b4$f961a660$059495ce@gw98> References: <001401c554b4$f961a660$059495ce@gw98> Message-ID: Hi Norm I took a quick look through the FAQ (http://www.gutenberg.org/faq/) and didn't find a particular list. I would say more information than you need is there, perhaps just spread out a bit. I seem to recall a post-processors faq at DP that might be useful for your purposes. In my experience, each text has its own oddities and quirks, and what I check for depends directly on those. (For example, a text I'm working through right now has two distinctly different types of side-notes.) On Mon, 9 May 2005, N Wolcott wrote: > A couple of weeks ago there ws a post here that included the instructions for submitting a book in the case where it did not go through DP. Listed requirements lik??e Guiguts etc. > > However when I look at www.gutenberg.org the only requirement I see on the submissions page is to be W3C validated if html. Am I missing something and where can I find the full requirements. ?? > N Wolcott nwolcott2@post.harvard.edu > From gbnewby at pglaf.org Mon May 9 10:11:23 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Mon May 9 10:11:25 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Book Submission Requirements In-Reply-To: <001401c554b4$f961a660$059495ce@gw98> References: <001401c554b4$f961a660$059495ce@gw98> Message-ID: <20050509171123.GA17857@pglaf.org> On Mon, May 09, 2005 at 12:34:20PM -0400, N Wolcott wrote: > A couple of weeks ago there ws a post here that included the instructions for submitting a book in the case where it did not go through DP. Listed requirements lik??e Guiguts etc. > > However when I look at www.gutenberg.org the only requirement I see on the submissions page is to be W3C validated if html. Am I missing something and where can I find the full requirements. ?? Other folks already mentioned that there is a lot on formatting etc. in the FAQ at http://gutenberg.org/faq Also, DP has lots of tips on formatting. The reason you're not seeing much info about submitting items is that the first step, always, is getting copyright clearance. You'll see that http://copy.pglaf.org has some of the info you want. In the clearance emails we send out, it mentions http://upload.pglaf.org , which is where all new contributions go. That has some more detail on the pragmatic issues of getting the file(s) submitted. It's intentional that we try to get people to start with a copyright clearance, and don't go into detail on where to send the completed work until after the clearance has been processed. As always, suggestions or ideas are welcome! -- Greg From gbnewby at pglaf.org Mon May 9 10:16:38 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Mon May 9 10:16:39 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: <94e5f59605050903171126fc33@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050505050027.GA12192@pglaf.org> <427E2C8F.24339.6D24E3@localhost> <20050509041739.GA30333@pglaf.org> <94e5f59605050903171126fc33@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050509171638.GB17857@pglaf.org> On Mon, May 09, 2005 at 06:17:18AM -0400, Geoff Horton wrote: > The grammarian in me revolts at the use of "Plus" as a conjunction, > particularly at the beginning of a sentence, but that's a minor > nit-pick about an otherwise excellent submission. Fixed! Thanks... yes, we do attempt to use proper grammar, but it can be hard, when living in a sea of less-than-perfect usage. And, occasional over-hyphenation :-) Unrelated: another nit that I like to pick is the use of adverbs. "Most importantly," rather than "most important." I had an argument with editors at the MIT Press for a book I compiled way back when, with them insisting their editorial policy was that such adverbs were, in fact, adjectives. -- Greg From jwaddell at spunge.org Mon May 9 14:03:06 2005 From: jwaddell at spunge.org (jwaddell@spunge.org) Date: Mon May 9 14:03:19 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by 'orphan works' In-Reply-To: <20050509041739.GA30333@pglaf.org> References: <20050505050027.GA12192@pglaf.org> <427E2C8F.24339.6D24E3@localhost> <20050509041739.GA30333@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <44460.216.81.35.11.1115672586.squirrel@216.81.35.11> nitpick ---> "quality" should be "qualify" I think you already sent this though.... Jeff > Another 90% of items since 1964 were similarly not renewed. How many of > these items are still in print, and how many might quality as orphaned > works under section 108(h)? We speculate there are at least one million Thanks for working on this issue. From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon May 9 15:49:35 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon May 9 15:49:57 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by 'orphan works' Message-ID: <217.7d833e.2fb142ff@aol.com> jeff said: > nitpick ---> "quality" should be "qualify" thank you jeff, this made me laugh at loud! how many "proofreaders" here did that slip by? but given _enough_ eyeballs, all typos are shallow... ;+) -bowerbird p.s. of course, that's what happens when you press a deadline. but at least a response from project gutenberg got in... :+) oh yeah, i ordered a project gutenberg d.v.d a while back, and the service was prompt, friendly, and quite excellent. the d.v.d., along with a c.d. that was included free as well, is sitting here on my desk. thanks to three decades of volunteers! From rvijay07 at myway.com Mon May 9 16:27:01 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Mon May 9 16:27:17 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Special ISO CD Collections Suggestion. Message-ID: <20050509232701.16B40394F@mprdmxin.myway.com> gbnewby at pglaf.org wrote: >> We've done a few of this type, over the years. I am aiming for a few weeks to have a new service to let people automatically select what they want for their own custom CD or DVD image - that will open the door for some new ISOs, based on very easy creation. >> Today, it's a bit labor intensive to create a new ISO. There is complexity in selecting particular files for an eBook, then you need to make a friendly index page. A few folks have written software for this, but I don't have any of the software - and it pre-dates our XML/RSS catalog format, which is the easiest way to get a current listing of eBooks and their associated files. Anyway, stay tuned... -- Greg Hi Greg: Yesterday I had burned 10 CDs of the Best of the GP ISO. One coworker was very happy to get this. Another coworker asked me if there are fairy tales adn fiction in that CD, I said yes, it is a wide collection and hence these are also present. Immediately he said he didn't want the CD. Hence, the ability to create custom ISOs and others creating custom ISOs based on subject/language etc., and making them available for download makes the entire GP more convenient and attractive. Hopefully, this will encourage more people to use GP. I will certainly stay tuned in this regard. Thank You. Vijay :) _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Mon May 9 16:35:04 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Mon May 9 16:35:21 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Selling/Promoting The Gutenberg Project. Message-ID: <20050509233504.2F05E396F@mprdmxin.myway.com> Summary so Far: (1) While discussing specific topics on the net and in E-Mails, include the GP Free E-Books Links (2) Suggest the Project to atleast one new person a weekly or monthly. (There are still several who are unaware of this project). (3) Giving FREE Gutenberg CDs locally to people who will actually use them. (4) Place a search box on the front page to make it obvious that PG does actually give away books :-) (5) Use the GP site as signature in E-Mails/postings etc., (6) Encourage strategic/key people to talk and promote the project. They can reach more people efficiently. (7) The Gutenberg CD/DVD makes a great FRUGAL GIFT for several occassions. Promote this idea before special holidays/seasons (8) Discuss/mention online whenever there are significant developments at the Gutenberg Project or whenever a exciting title is added that may interest someone or a group of people. (9) Discuss this project in all the sites that discuss Freebies etc., (10) Encourage present GP users to reachout to 'potential prospects' and present them the GP. Please feel free to ask any questions regarding promoting GP here. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon May 9 19:48:10 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon May 9 19:48:46 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Special ISO CD Collections Suggestion. Message-ID: <85.274303db.2fb17aea@aol.com> vijay said: > Another coworker asked me if there are > fairy tales adn fiction in that CD, I said yes, > it is a wide collection and hence these are also present. > Immediately he said he didn't want the CD. that's too funny... :+) -bowerbird From gbnewby at pglaf.org Mon May 9 23:51:51 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Mon May 9 23:51:53 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by 'orphan works' In-Reply-To: <44460.216.81.35.11.1115672586.squirrel@216.81.35.11> References: <20050505050027.GA12192@pglaf.org> <427E2C8F.24339.6D24E3@localhost> <20050509041739.GA30333@pglaf.org> <44460.216.81.35.11.1115672586.squirrel@216.81.35.11> Message-ID: <20050510065151.GA5290@pglaf.org> On Mon, May 09, 2005 at 04:03:06PM -0500, jwaddell@spunge.org wrote: > nitpick ---> "quality" should be "qualify" Fixed, for posterity... > I think you already sent this though.... Yep. I'm to blame for the typos, misrepresentations, over-generalizations, and so forth. Everyone else gets the credit for any good stuff! -- Greg From rvijay07 at myway.com Tue May 10 01:43:42 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Tue May 10 01:44:06 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Virtual Volunteering Guidebook. Message-ID: <20050510084342.7AEA212D79@mprdmxin.myway.com> Came across this guidebook: http://www.serviceleader.org/new/virtual/2003/04/000109.php Also here are some general resources for Virtual Volunteering: http://www.serviceleader.org/new/virtual/index.php Regards to all, Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From hart at pglaf.org Tue May 10 06:53:54 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Tue May 10 06:53:55 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: <20050508075134.8DC60E0000EC@astro.systems.pipex.net> References: <20050508075134.8DC60E0000EC@astro.systems.pipex.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005, Richard Poynder wrote: >> On 6 May 2005, at 11:29, Michael Hart wrote: >> >>> We have received very good conservative legal advice that Project >>> Gutenberg is indeed a library or archive, and probably >> both, and has >>> been for over a decade. > > > Branko Collin wrote: > >> "Likewise, he encouraged libraries to "push back against the >> easy assertion that Project Gutenberg is a library."" >> >> (I am not sure what that person was on about though. Full article at >> > d>.) > > > He seemed to be claiming that people cannot make full use of books without > the assistance of traditional "gatekeepers" like publishers, teachers and > librarians. Since it does not provide these kinds of intermediaries to help > readers understand the books it offers he therefore appears to have > concluded that PG cannot be called a library. > > Richard Poynder We get messages all the time from people who want to convince the world that "it isn't and eBook/eLibrary until _I_ say it is an eBook/eLibrary." This would be just fine if they included whatever it was that they said would make the difference to them, then we could decide about using it. Recently just such a discussion ocurred about Frankenstein and about The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes, and new editions have already appeared for each of these, and yet another new edition is already in progress for each of them, each with significan improvements from different sources, as well as improvements we tend to make along the way. >From what I understand, some of this will not be settled until yet another paper edition of Frankenstein is used for a separate source edition, but that edition has not been forthcoming from the complainant. In just the opposite manner, we DO have source materials for a new Memoirs, and perhaps other Holmes works, as per the Strand magazine and the various book editions, and one way or another, there should be some more Memoirs editions on the way. Thanks!!! Michael From nwolcott at dsdial.net Tue May 10 06:43:37 2005 From: nwolcott at dsdial.net (N Wolcott) Date: Tue May 10 07:04:01 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Book Submission Requirements References: <001401c554b4$f961a660$059495ce@gw98> <20050509171123.GA17857@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <006601c55569$1c22d8e0$a09495ce@gw98> Thanks. The upload page has the deetailed requirements. the faq on the top page of gutenberg.org should perhaps mention that tools for cleaning up your text are available etc. The faq makes it all sound so simple, just giving general guidelines, and should mention the upload page for detailed requirements. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Newby" To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Book Submission Requirements > On Mon, May 09, 2005 at 12:34:20PM -0400, N Wolcott wrote: > > A couple of weeks ago there ws a post here that included the instructions for submitting a book in the case where it did not go through DP. Listed requirements lik??e Guiguts etc. > > > > However when I look at www.gutenberg.org the only requirement I see on the submissions page is to be W3C validated if html. Am I missing something and where can I find the full requirements. ?? > > Other folks already mentioned that there is a lot on > formatting etc. in the FAQ at http://gutenberg.org/faq > Also, DP has lots of tips on formatting. > > The reason you're not seeing much info about submitting > items is that the first step, always, is getting copyright > clearance. You'll see that http://copy.pglaf.org has > some of the info you want. In the clearance emails we send > out, it mentions http://upload.pglaf.org , which is > where all new contributions go. That has some more detail > on the pragmatic issues of getting the file(s) submitted. > > It's intentional that we try to get people to start with > a copyright clearance, and don't go into detail on where to send > the completed work until after the clearance has been > processed. > > As always, suggestions or ideas are welcome! > -- Greg > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From sclous at yahoo.com Tue May 10 12:52:21 2005 From: sclous at yahoo.com (Scott Clous) Date: Tue May 10 12:52:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] making CD / DVD best of 2005--how and which books? Message-ID: <20050510195221.25346.qmail@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> making CD / DVD best of 2005. Which books, and why? I am eager to create an updated CD and DVD from the 2 that already exist, including the corrected versions. My motivation is 2 fold, people for better or worse download things that they think are the most current--using robots to get the most current versions vs. just the CD, etc. and because it does make the site more useable if one download gets them some wonderful content directly--and we all would want it to be the most current (and hopefully correct) versions. Many people have broadband now, and Bittorrent makes many things easier. I know there are some challenges in getting it together, then maintaining it, because the format of presenting the content has changed. Usually, without tagging the content itself, within a field to id that content as going onto a complitation, the only other method of selection is an index of choices for the CD or DVD. To start things off, I'd like to use the existing selections, update them, and make the CD available again. I also will review the new titles, Sherlock is near and dear to all our hearts, I'm sure, and include them if possible and their popularity warrents it. It would be nice to have a method to automatically update it -- fairy tales and all -- so that the site, and this part of it appear to be current. This last goal is additional work, but might be well worth it. Do any of the volunteers or programmers have feedback on these ideas? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gbnewby at pglaf.org Tue May 10 13:23:51 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Tue May 10 13:23:53 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] making CD / DVD best of 2005--how and which books? In-Reply-To: <20050510195221.25346.qmail@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050510195221.25346.qmail@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050510202351.GA22869@pglaf.org> On Tue, May 10, 2005 at 12:52:21PM -0700, Scott Clous wrote: > making CD / DVD best of 2005. > > Which books, and why? > > I am eager to create an updated CD and DVD from the 2 > that already exist, including the corrected versions. > > My motivation is 2 fold, people for better or worse > download things that they think are the most > current--using robots to get the most current versions > vs. just the CD, etc. and because it does make the > site more useable if one download gets them some > wonderful content directly--and we all would want it > to be the most current (and hopefully correct) > versions. > > Many people have broadband now, and Bittorrent makes > many things easier. > > I know there are some challenges in getting it > together, then maintaining it, because the format of > presenting the content has changed. > > Usually, without tagging the content itself, within a > field to id that content as going onto a complitation, > the only other method of selection is an index of > choices for the CD or DVD. Note: To extract metadata, identify files, etc., try starting with the XML/RDF file at http://gutenberg.org/catalog. It's the single most important advance in our ability to automatically match files with metadata like author & title. > To start things off, I'd like to use the existing > selections, update them, and make the CD available > again. > > I also will review the new titles, Sherlock is near > and dear to all our hearts, I'm sure, and include them > if possible and their popularity warrents it. > > It would be nice to have a method to automatically > update it -- fairy tales and all -- so that the site, > and this part of it appear to be current. > > This last goal is additional work, but might be well > worth it. > > Do any of the volunteers or programmers have feedback > on these ideas? Thanks for doing this, Scott! In fact, I am looking for a list of eBook #s to include in a revised "best of," too. I'm thinking a DVD, rather than a CD, because so much more graphical content is available now. For example, I'd include most/all of our "Punch" issues and related....Scientific American, etc. I would like some new images for upcoming giveaways, too. I should have a program available soon (really, really soon - in time for Michael Hart's visit to Fairbanks in June) to "build your own" ISO. Seeding these with lists of eBook #s is the best possible start. I think that the current "Best Of" CD is probably your best starting point. While we've done many, many new eBooks since then, the best-known titles were already available for the CD. But many have been updated, and a few have had images or HTML added. Thematic listings are possible, too. Some ideas: - French language - German language - Very old books - Travels and Voyages - Children's & Reference - Early SciFi & Horror - Best-known Literature - Translated works - Women Authors What I very much expect, very very soon (no, really!!), is to be able to turn a list of eBook #s into an ISO with little manual intervention. Then, we'll be able to keep the ISO updated as the eBooks are updated. The new directory structure, to which all items are gradually moving, makes this easier. Our CD & DVD giveaway page at http://gutenberg.org/cdproject is immensely popular (and giveaways pay for themselves, because many recipients make a voluntary donation). The images are downloaded constantly. Making more of these is something I'd really like to assist with. -- Greg From rvijay07 at myway.com Tue May 10 14:45:04 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Tue May 10 14:45:19 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Selling/Promoting The Gutenberg Project. Message-ID: <20050510214504.CCFF5397F@mprdmxin.myway.com> More ideas: a) Get Librarians and Profs to refer to PG more. b) Have a copy of the PG CD/DVD available in libraries for others to make copies. Post prominent notices in this regard. c) Partner with other similar noble projects on the net for eg., http://bytesforall.org, Free Software Foundation, Freecycle etc., Comments welcome from all. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From collin at xs4all.nl Tue May 10 16:35:20 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Tue May 10 16:22:44 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: References: <20050508075134.8DC60E0000EC@astro.systems.pipex.net> Message-ID: <42816158.23229.353A972@localhost> On 10 May 2005, at 6:53, Michael Hart wrote: > On Sun, 8 May 2005, Richard Poynder wrote: > >> On 6 May 2005, at 11:29, Michael Hart wrote: > >> > >>> We have received very good conservative legal advice that Project > >>> Gutenberg is indeed a library or archive, and probably > >>> both, and has been for over a decade. > > > > Branko Collin wrote: > > > >> "Likewise, he encouraged libraries to "push back against the > >> easy assertion that Project Gutenberg is a library."" > >> > >> (I am not sure what that person was on about though. Full article > >> at > >> >> ff7 d>.) > > We get messages all the time from people who want to convince the > world that "it isn't and eBook/eLibrary until _I_ say it is an > eBook/eLibrary." And of course the next day the wheel turns half a rotation and prof. Michael S. Hart gets called a bona fide "hero of the global literacy revolution" (). :-) -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From JBuck814366460 at aol.com Wed May 11 07:24:46 2005 From: JBuck814366460 at aol.com (Jared Buck) Date: Wed May 11 07:24:56 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] making CD / DVD best of 2005--how and which books? In-Reply-To: <20050510202351.GA22869@pglaf.org> References: <20050510195221.25346.qmail@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050510202351.GA22869@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <428215AE.7090805@aol.com> So would I, I have the bandwidth (when it works, it's being crappy right now) to download the etexts and then make .isos of stuff. I'd be happy to do some thematic CD/DVDs while Scott works on the major discs. I've been needing an updated one for a while (Michael's requested updated ones anyone for a while as he asked me some time ago to send him CDs/DVDs of the new books as they come out. it's a pain in the ass to download, but well worth the time when you can make a .iso and save people a lot of download time. Jared Greg Newby wrote on 5/10/2005, 1:23 PM: > On Tue, May 10, 2005 at 12:52:21PM -0700, Scott Clous wrote: > > making CD / DVD best of 2005. > > > > Which books, and why? > > > > I am eager to create an updated CD and DVD from the 2 > > that already exist, including the corrected versions. > > > > My motivation is 2 fold, people for better or worse > > download things that they think are the most > > current--using robots to get the most current versions > > vs. just the CD, etc. and because it does make the > > site more useable if one download gets them some > > wonderful content directly--and we all would want it > > to be the most current (and hopefully correct) > > versions. > > > > Many people have broadband now, and Bittorrent makes > > many things easier. > > > > I know there are some challenges in getting it > > together, then maintaining it, because the format of > > presenting the content has changed. > > > > Usually, without tagging the content itself, within a > > field to id that content as going onto a complitation, > > the only other method of selection is an index of > > choices for the CD or DVD. > > Note: To extract metadata, identify files, etc., try > starting with the XML/RDF file at http://gutenberg.org/catalog. > It's the single most important advance in our ability to > automatically match files with metadata like author & title. > > > To start things off, I'd like to use the existing > > selections, update them, and make the CD available > > again. > > > > I also will review the new titles, Sherlock is near > > and dear to all our hearts, I'm sure, and include them > > if possible and their popularity warrents it. > > > > It would be nice to have a method to automatically > > update it -- fairy tales and all -- so that the site, > > and this part of it appear to be current. > > > > This last goal is additional work, but might be well > > worth it. > > > > Do any of the volunteers or programmers have feedback > > on these ideas? > > Thanks for doing this, Scott! In fact, I am looking > for a list of eBook #s to include in a revised > "best of," too. I'm thinking a DVD, rather than > a CD, because so much more graphical content is available > now. For example, I'd include most/all of our "Punch" > issues and related....Scientific American, etc. > > I would like some new images for upcoming giveaways, too. > I should have a program available soon (really, really > soon - in time for Michael Hart's visit to Fairbanks > in June) to "build your own" ISO. Seeding these with > lists of eBook #s is the best possible start. > > I think that the current "Best Of" CD is probably your > best starting point. While we've done many, many new > eBooks since then, the best-known titles were already > available for the CD. But many have been updated, and > a few have had images or HTML added. > > Thematic listings are possible, too. Some ideas: > - French language > - German language > - Very old books > - Travels and Voyages > - Children's & Reference > - Early SciFi & Horror > - Best-known Literature > - Translated works > - Women Authors > > What I very much expect, very very soon (no, really!!), > is to be able to turn a list of eBook #s into an ISO > with little manual intervention. Then, we'll be able > to keep the ISO updated as the eBooks are updated. The > new directory structure, to which all items are gradually > moving, makes this easier. > > Our CD & DVD giveaway page at http://gutenberg.org/cdproject > is immensely popular (and giveaways pay for themselves, because > many recipients make a voluntary donation). The images are > downloaded constantly. Making more of these is something I'd > really like to assist with. > -- Greg > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From cannona at fireantproductions.com Wed May 11 08:14:26 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Wed May 11 08:24:02 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] making CD / DVD best of 2005--how and which books? In-Reply-To: <20050510195221.25346.qmail@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050510195221.25346.qmail@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050511101221.0367ea78@mail.fireantproductions.com> I'm sure I'll have additional comments as time goes on, but, you might also look at the top 100 title list for some ideas on what else to include. Thanks! Sincerely Aaron Cannon At 02:52 PM 5/10/2005, you wrote: >making CD / DVD best of 2005. > >Which books, and why? > >I am eager to create an updated CD and DVD from the 2 >that already exist, including the corrected versions. > >My motivation is 2 fold, people for better or worse >download things that they think are the most >current--using robots to get the most current versions >vs. just the CD, etc. and because it does make the >site more useable if one download gets them some >wonderful content directly--and we all would want it >to be the most current (and hopefully correct) >versions. > >Many people have broadband now, and Bittorrent makes >many things easier. > >I know there are some challenges in getting it >together, then maintaining it, because the format of >presenting the content has changed. > >Usually, without tagging the content itself, within a >field to id that content as going onto a complitation, >the only other method of selection is an index of >choices for the CD or DVD. > >To start things off, I'd like to use the existing >selections, update them, and make the CD available >again. > >I also will review the new titles, Sherlock is near >and dear to all our hearts, I'm sure, and include them >if possible and their popularity warrents it. > >It would be nice to have a method to automatically >update it -- fairy tales and all -- so that the site, >and this part of it appear to be current. > >This last goal is additional work, but might be well >worth it. > >Do any of the volunteers or programmers have feedback >on these ideas? > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) From rvijay07 at myway.com Wed May 11 14:21:06 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Wed May 11 14:21:22 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Off Topic Discussion List Suggestion. Message-ID: <20050511212106.583403948@mprdmxin.myway.com> I suggest an Off Topic Discussion list for PG. Both volunteers and non-volunteers can become members. This will help everyone to know each other a little bit more and discuss some things of common interest. Topics such as what was the last book you red on PG etc., can be discussed. This will create a more friendly atmosphere, generate more interest in PG and benefit everyone overall in the longer run. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From bill at truthdb.org Wed May 11 23:44:15 2005 From: bill at truthdb.org (bill) Date: Wed May 11 23:42:34 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re:making CD / DVD best of 2005--how and which books? In-Reply-To: <20050511190002.C9B948C8F0@pglaf.org> References: <20050511190002.C9B948C8F0@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <4282FB3F.9010209@truthdb.org> I know this is likely not practical but I would like to see a read-only medium where the legalese was exised out of the texts and stored in a license.txt in the root of the file system. This would save a ton of space and allow for more texts within the iso.I appreciate that the legal text has changed over the years and is not consistant for all books but a notation "Licence--#01" or whatever at the head of the book would allow you to cross-reference the license file. Surely a one line system such as this would save bandwidth and storage space while maintaining whatever legal requirements that must be met. From JBuck814366460 at aol.com Wed May 11 23:50:38 2005 From: JBuck814366460 at aol.com (Jared Buck) Date: Wed May 11 23:50:59 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re:making CD / DVD best of 2005--how and which books? In-Reply-To: <4282FB3F.9010209@truthdb.org> References: <20050511190002.C9B948C8F0@pglaf.org> <4282FB3F.9010209@truthdb.org> Message-ID: <4282FCBE.5060506@aol.com> That sounds like a good idea, bill. Although probably not practical right now. At least they're at the bottom of the etexts now - they were at the top only a few years ago and people found that annoying as hell. jared bill wrote on 5/11/2005, 11:44 PM: > I know this is likely not practical but I would like to see a read-only > medium where the legalese was exised out of the texts and stored in a > license.txt in the root of the file system. This would save a ton of > space and allow for more texts within the iso.I appreciate that the > legal text has changed over the years and is not consistant for all > books but a notation "Licence--#01" or whatever at the head of the book > would allow you to cross-reference the license file. Surely a one line > system such as this would save bandwidth and storage space while > maintaining whatever legal requirements that must be met. > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From joshua at hutchinson.net Thu May 12 05:48:56 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Thu May 12 05:48:59 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re:making CD / DVD best of 2005--how and which books? Message-ID: <20050512124856.B98DEEE296@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> The future "master format" that you may hear people talk about will have something like this. PGTEI uses a divGen line to add the license when the master file is converted to text or html or PDF or ... The true ease will be in that changing one master license file will update the license in all the files in the archive. But, for legal reasons, we need the license in all the text and html files. Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: bill To: gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org Subject: [gutvol-d] Re:making CD / DVD best of 2005--how and which books? Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 02:44:15 -0400 > > I know this is likely not practical but I would like to see a read-only medium > where the legalese was exised out of the texts and stored in a license.txt in > the root of the file system. This would save a ton of space and allow for more > texts within the iso.I appreciate that the legal text has changed over the > years and is not consistant for all books but a notation "Licence--#01" or > whatever at the head of the book would allow you to cross-reference the > license file. Surely a one line system such as this would save bandwidth and > storage space while maintaining whatever legal requirements that must be met. > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From sclous at yahoo.com Thu May 12 06:58:50 2005 From: sclous at yahoo.com (Scott Clous) Date: Thu May 12 06:58:54 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: gutvol-d Digest, Vol 10, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: <20050511190003.1CB9C8C8FB@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <20050512135850.1557.qmail@web31905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The reasons people always will want a "standard" best of, is that it takes time to pick things. Also, that does make it a bit easier to mirror the isos. I want to do a CD first because getting a successful download is key, not how much stuff can be packed onto a DVD that can't be opened. Question--do most of the subscribers/downloaders live in the US, &/or are English speakers? While I would have thought at first to only have English content in a best of, my cousin who is overseas now is enjoying the German portions of the DVD! However, if the goal is to have something easy for the give away, at least on the CD I'll suggest we try for all English; Someone who speaks Spanish, etc. would be in a better place than I to answer the great works on the others, and would have a greater motivation to see it kept up. Greg--"I should have a program available soon (really, really soon - in time for Michael Hart's visit to Fairbanks in June) to "build your own" ISO. Seeding these with lists of eBook #s is the best possible start. I'm looking forward to you program, can you tell us a bit more about it, those of us who "just came in?" Greg-"I think that the current "Best Of" CD is probably your best starting point. While we've done many, many new eBooks since then, the best-known titles were already available for the CD. But many have been updated, and a few have had images or HTML added. Is there any way, other than manually to ID the books from the CD? DVD? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jwaddell at spunge.org Thu May 12 13:35:47 2005 From: jwaddell at spunge.org (jwaddell@spunge.org) Date: Thu May 12 13:35:58 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by 'orphan works' In-Reply-To: <217.7d833e.2fb142ff@aol.com> References: <217.7d833e.2fb142ff@aol.com> Message-ID: <2625.216.81.37.198.1115930147.squirrel@216.81.37.198> What can I say... it's a gift (or perhaps a curse). I notice things like that all the time. Found at least three typo/spelling errors in the book [you know the kind that went through the whole publishing process with professional proofreaders, which I guess considering the volume of words is really quite trivial] I read last night. Maybe I can find a way to turn that talent into some cash as I would find some of that useful for getting the things I actually use (food, clothing, shelter, entertainment, computer equipment, etc. :) Know anybody who needs a proofreader? > jeff said: >> nitpick ---> "quality" should be "qualify" > > thank you jeff, this made me laugh at loud! > how many "proofreaders" here did that slip by? > but given _enough_ eyeballs, all typos are shallow... ;+) > > -bowerbird > > p.s. of course, that's what happens when you press a deadline. > but at least a response from project gutenberg got in... :+) > Yes, I hope it makes a positive difference. > oh yeah, i ordered a project gutenberg d.v.d a while back, > and the service was prompt, friendly, and quite excellent. > the d.v.d., along with a c.d. that was included free as well, is > sitting here on my desk. thanks to three decades of volunteers! Great!! Enjoy.. Jeff From gbnewby at pglaf.org Thu May 12 13:36:02 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Thu May 12 13:36:03 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re:making CD / DVD best of 2005--how and which books? In-Reply-To: <20050512124856.B98DEEE296@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20050512124856.B98DEEE296@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <20050512203602.GB15727@pglaf.org> On Thu, May 12, 2005 at 07:48:56AM -0500, Joshua Hutchinson wrote: > The future "master format" that you may hear people talk about will have something like this. > > PGTEI uses a divGen line to add the license when the master file is converted to text or html or PDF or ... > > The true ease will be in that changing one master license file will update the license in all the files in the archive. > > But, for legal reasons, we need the license in all the text and html files. > > Josh > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: bill > To: gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > Subject: [gutvol-d] Re:making CD / DVD best of 2005--how and which books? > Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 02:44:15 -0400 > > > > > I know this is likely not practical but I would like to see a read-only medium > > where the legalese was exised out of the texts and stored in a license.txt in > > the root of the file system. This would save a ton of space and allow for more > > texts within the iso.I appreciate that the legal text has changed over the > > years and is not consistant for all books but a notation "Licence--#01" or > > whatever at the head of the book would allow you to cross-reference the > > license file. Surely a one line system such as this would save bandwidth and > > storage space while maintaining whatever legal requirements that must be met. Josh has it right. Just to agree and amplify: it's OK for readers & redistributors of our eBooks to move the license etc. to a separate hyperlinked file. (This is explicit in the license: http://gutenberg.org/license , then to the HOWTO) But we made a policy decision to *always* include the full license & other header stuff in the eBooks as *we* distribute them, including on CD/DVD. This is not stricly a legal requirement, but something we believe is in our best interest, because it makes it far easier for anyone who redistributes an eBook to do so with the license "intact." ** For people generating reformatted versions "on the fly," I expect to offer them an option of where/how to display the license. The minimum will be something like our first lines currently, perhaps in the "verso" location of a reformatted eBook: Please read the "legal small print," and other information about the eBook and Project Gutenberg at the bottom of this file. Included is important information about your specific rights and restrictions in how the file may be used. You can also find out about how to make a donation to Project Gutenberg, and how to get involved. The license is not a static thing. We do change it over the years. I'm sure we'll want to do some revisions as we move into PGTEI and various conversion options. So, don't feel that today's way is the "only" way. -- Greg From prosfilaes at gmail.com Thu May 12 13:57:33 2005 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Thu May 12 13:57:43 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: gutvol-d Digest, Vol 10, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: <20050512135850.1557.qmail@web31905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050511190003.1CB9C8C8FB@pglaf.org> <20050512135850.1557.qmail@web31905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6d99d1fd05051213573ae13251@mail.gmail.com> In some ways, I think of the CD as a sampler, to try and lure them in the website; the best way to make them volunteers is to get them to actively work with the website rather than a static CD, and Gutenberg's best foot forward will always be its growing website rather than a static disk. It's nice to have non-English on the CD to show the people that we are more than just English books. From jwaddell at spunge.org Thu May 12 14:13:53 2005 From: jwaddell at spunge.org (jwaddell@spunge.org) Date: Thu May 12 14:14:03 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] making CD / DVD best of 2005--how and which books? In-Reply-To: <20050510195221.25346.qmail@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050510195221.25346.qmail@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2672.216.81.37.198.1115932433.squirrel@216.81.37.198> If it were me I'd include the Sherlock Holmes audiobooks (at least on the DVD) Jeff From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu May 12 16:02:59 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Thu May 12 16:03:15 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by 'orphan works' Message-ID: <11.4534685f.2fb53aa3@aol.com> jeff said: > Know anybody who needs a proofreader? i hear jon noring is looking... ;+) -bowerbird From jon at noring.name Thu May 12 17:23:49 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Thu May 12 17:24:10 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by 'orphan works' In-Reply-To: <11.4534685f.2fb53aa3@aol.com> References: <11.4534685f.2fb53aa3@aol.com> Message-ID: <1108449522.20050512182349@noring.name> Bowerbird wrote: > Jeff asked: >> Know anybody who needs a proofreader? > i hear jon noring is looking... ;+) Smiley aside, I am looking for several proofreaders to finish the proofing of "My Antonia" by comparison of the present XHTML to the original page scans. It's been partially proofed already (errata has been submitted by several people already, including Bowerbird.) The process will be like Distributed Proofreaders -- done on a page-by-page basis -- do one page, do ten, do one hundred, whatever you have time. I'm hoping to have at least two sets of eyeballs proof each page. For the different "looks" available, refer to http://www.openreader.org/myantonia/ . Of course, anyone helping with proofing will get their name added to the "proofing team" list. Let me know in private email if you're interested in helping out with this project. The final version, once proofed, will be donated to PG (if they haven't used it already!) and will be available in other venues. Thanks! Jon Noring From servalan at ar.com.au Thu May 12 17:28:34 2005 From: servalan at ar.com.au (Pauline) Date: Thu May 12 17:29:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by 'orphan works' In-Reply-To: <1108449522.20050512182349@noring.name> References: <11.4534685f.2fb53aa3@aol.com> <1108449522.20050512182349@noring.name> Message-ID: <4283F4B2.8090900@ar.com.au> Jon Noring wrote: > The process will be like Distributed Proofreaders -- done on a > page-by-page basis Why not just put the text through DP? P From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu May 12 21:59:40 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Thu May 12 22:00:03 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by 'orphan works' Message-ID: <1db.3ba52b06.2fb58e3c@aol.com> jon said: > I am looking for several proofreaders to finish the proofing of > "My Antonia" by comparison of the present XHTML to the > original page scans. It's been partially proofed already (errata has > been submitted by several people already, including Bowerbird.) i'm sitting on 2 more errors in "my antonia", jon -- one outright error, and one consistency error -- waiting until you offer a $50 bounty for the final error. :+) i figure at some point, it will become worth that to you to be able to say with confidence your text is error-free. by the way, how do you suggest people do the proofing? (it's darn hard to proof text with the linebreaks removed!) if you can guarantee the scans will stay available for a good time to come at their current location, i would be willing to customize my proofing tool to work with 'em. let me know if you are interested... *** pourlean said: > Why not just put the text through DP? there's an idea for you, jon. it might save you 50 bucks... ;+) -bowerbird From jon at noring.name Fri May 13 00:58:04 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Fri May 13 00:58:34 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] More on "My Antonia" (was Reply comments on US issues raised by 'orphan works') Message-ID: <1377837182.20050513015804@noring.name> [Pauline, I explain later on why I have not submitted "My Antonia" to DP. But if someone from DP here says to submit the scans and the current XHTML text for final-stage proofing, then I'll do so. I'll take care of the final XHTML markup. Also, anyone here interesting in converting the markup to TEI? (It should be relatively straightforward since I use a structural/semantic markup which is relatively compatible with TEI markup principles.)] Bowerbird wrote: > Jon wrote: >> I am looking for several proofreaders to finish the proofing of "My >> Antonia" by comparison of the present XHTML to the original page >> scans. It's been partially proofed already (errata has been >> submitted by several people already, including Bowerbird.) > i'm sitting on 2 more errors in "my antonia", jon -- one outright > error, and one consistency error -- waiting until you offer a $50 > bounty for the final error. :+) Don't hold your breath waiting for your moolah. Anyway, I think you mentioned that "consistency" error before (it is an interpretation of what the typesetter did regarding spacing with respect to two classes of contractions -- and how they are done in the current XHTML is *correct* based on analyzing the 1926 second edition, which Willa Cather herself was active in its production.) It is interesting in what you've said before about the need for better errata reporting and correction mechanisms, meaning you want errata to be immediately fixed for Public Domain texts as they are found by users. Nice to see you are being consistent to your principles. I guess what you really meant to say is that "I will gladly submit my errata immediately after I am paid." Anyway, the proofers did find a couple errors (and as I noted the text has not been sufficiently proofed yet), which have been corrected in the current online text. I don't know if they corrected the errors you found, but I don't really care. And of course, I won't tell you here exactly what errors the proofers found, but for $100 I'll be happy to tell you (but I'll be nice and give you a clue: "didn't" and "liked".) Otherwise you can download the XHTML document again and run a 'diff' on it -- happy hunting! > i figure at some point, it will become worth that to you to be able > to say with confidence your text is error-free. What you are implying by this statement is that *you know* what the error-free text is supposed to be. Interesting that you apparently missed at least a couple errors. You did bring up a good point about the line break issue. This leads to my answer to Pauline's question on why I didn't use DP, and why I'm hesitant now to submit it to DP: 1) I had a project deadline where I had to get the text reasonably cleaned up and online *in a hurry* (with page scans) for demo purposes. I made that deadline, but it led me to not do it via DP. It was my intention to continue the clean-up process after the deadline -- it's only the right thing to do. However, for actual mass production of texts, DP or similar process would be used -- which I have noted a couple times before. 2) Additionally, because of the deadline, I decided to start with an HTML document which was already pretty well-proofed (it was NOT PG's version), and did various types of analysis and hand-proofing on it (including 'diff' to PG's version, which, though mangled, provided a reference point using the principle that most of the transcribed text in it is accurate -- all discrepencies between PG's and my version were then compared to the original page scans (most of the discrepencies were with PG's text, I might add.) If there were the same errors in both, then those errors would not be caught except by proofing, by running some auto-checks, and maybe by creating a third text using OCR and 'diff'ing that with the others, which is what I assume Bowerbird did.) 3) So, the source I used was already missing the original line breaks, another reason that it was probably too late to submit it DP, since I don't believe the text I've done up to now could be efficiently injected "midway" into DP's workflow; it would be a waste to have DP do it all over again when it is now in very good shape. If anyone reading this wants to help and proof a few pages using the "primitive" system I now have (e.g., just print out the pages from the page scans you would like to proof, and compare them with the online XHTML version which shows the page numbering and breaks. There are other ways to do this proofing by comparison, such as opening up two windows in your browser, one showing the page scan and the other the online XHTML text.) 4) As noted above, I would use a DP process for "mass production", but for this particular project did not for the reasons cited above. "My Antonia" is, and has always been, a demonstration project to experiment with new ideas, to get my hands "dirty" with the production process (although I've transcribed a dozen texts before), and to use it for showing to some people interested in this. Yes, it is just "one" text out of the 5000+ already done by DP, but "My Antonia" was not intended to be competitive to anyone. It is a first small and methodical step towards meeting several goals and proving some principles. It is still "beta", too, and hopefully all the ideas I want to experiment with will be implemented in a couple months (I've just started to implement what I'd like to implement.) What's been done so far has nicely assisted with the LibraryCity business plan, though, and may lead to a parallel business plan to be written by several of us in a couple months that's a little closer to the public domain text area. Btw, Bowerbird, I'm hoping to soon scan my copy of the *original* Burton edition of the Kama Sutra of Vatsyayana, and the scans will be submitted to DP as someone there requested. Like "My Antonia", I'm going to do high quality scans (at 600 dpi) and carefully clean them. This will be a tough test for your "we-don't-need-DP" approach: very small font, poor late nineteenth century typesetting, and some poorly printed pages (and this is one of the better copies of this book!) Maybe we should do a competition (you seem to love competition!): After I complete the scans, I'll submit them to both you and to DP. After the magic is done by you and DP, we'll compare the results (such as by 'diff'ing them) to look for inconsistencies which will then be compared to the original page scans. Of course, you will have to promise not to do late hours hand proofing of the text -- that'd be cheating -- you have to do it all auto-magically as you've been advocating. As some person whose name eludes may says, "The proof is in the pudding." Are you up to the challenge? Anyway, I think such an experiment is good to gauge the current state of OCR and auto-processing to clean up texts, so it is a test which will benefit everyone. In addition, the careful screening of this text during the "competition" (such as by comparing the result of the two approaches) should lead to a *very low error*, possibly *zero error* digital text version, which can then be used for quick assessment of the accuracy of new OCR and auto-post-processing algorithms. I believe the Kama Sutra scans plus zero error digital text will make a good addition for a "test suite". Jon Noring From joshua at hutchinson.net Fri May 13 05:48:50 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Fri May 13 05:48:54 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] More on "My Antonia" (was Reply comments on US issues raised by ' Message-ID: <20050513124850.0A4242F96A@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Noring" > Also, anyone here interesting in > converting the markup to TEI? (It should be relatively straightforward > since I use a structural/semantic markup which is relatively > compatible with TEI markup principles.)] > Jon, I'm currently working closely with Marcello on the PGTEI spec. I'd love to have My Antonia to convert to TEI. Either send me a .zip file of the HTML you've got or give me a link to a download site and I'll put it on my to-do list. I can probably get to it middle to late next week. Josh From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri May 13 07:39:28 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri May 13 07:39:38 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: still more on "my antonia" Message-ID: jon said: > Anyway, I think you mentioned that "consistency" error before no, this is another one. it's a place where you've deviated from the text on the scan. you _might_ say you've done it for reasons of "consistency"; however, there is no annotation to that effect in the file, as i believe you _would_ put, if that were really the case... > I guess what you really meant to say is that "I will gladly > submit my errata immediately after I am paid." yep, that's it. :+) although, if you haven't found the errors i know about by august -- that's 6 months after you put the file up -- i'll submit my error-free version to project gutenberg. at no cost. :+) (but, since there _is_ a serious point here, let me address it: what you are advocating is a system that is quite well-done, but which is _extremely_ expensive. indeed, it's _so_ costly that it simply _can_not_be_justified_ on a cost-benefit basis, especially since many promised benefits will not materialize. i'm just driving that point home to you. from the standpoint of "every text must be perfect", it might be worth it to _you_ to pay $50 to attain that perfection. but to end-users? no way. they'd rather keep that $50, and live with that one little error -- since no one has even managed to notice it so far anyway. as for source metadata, users wouldn't pay _5_ bucks for that.) > And of course, I won't tell you here > exactly what errors the proofers found do you think i can't pinpoint them myself? (and here's a hint back for you: those weren't the ones.) > What you are implying by this statement is that > *you know* what the error-free text is supposed to be. i do. because i have the scans to refer to. :+) > Interesting that you apparently > missed at least a couple errors. what makes you think i missed those errors? :+) all i said was that i was sitting on 2 errors. i did not say i was sitting on 2 and only 2. i never show all my cards if i don't need to. i only expect to get paid the $50 for the _last_ error. (although if you wait too long, i'll soon be considering a pricetag of $25 for the _next-to-last_ one as well...) > You did bring up a good point about the line break issue. > This leads to my answer to Pauline's question on why I > didn't use DP, and why I'm hesitant now to submit it to DP: just run the scans through o.c.r. again, and keep the linebreaks. that's what i did. that gives you an independent work-product, which is _really_ what you need to have to find all the errors. > it would be a waste to have DP do it all over again > when it is now in very good shape. except it might save you 75 bucks... :+) > If anyone reading this wants to help and proof a few pages using > the "primitive" system I now have (e.g., just print out the pages > from the page scans you would like to proof, and compare them with > the online XHTML version which shows the page numbering and breaks. > There are other ways to do this proofing by comparison, such as > opening up two windows in your browser, one showing the page scan > and the other the online XHTML text.) it is an abuse of volunteers to make them endure processes like that... > As noted above, I would use a DP process for "mass production", > but for this particular project did not for the reasons cited above. well, if you run it through abbyy finereader v7.x, the output is clean. this book would fly through d.p. -- i'd be surprised if it lasted over 3 hours in the queue, because the scans are clear, the text clean, and the book easy and interesting -- and you'd have a separate product, which is worth gold. so you're just not thinking very clearly here... > "My Antonia" is, and has always been, a demonstration project i guess i'm still not sure what it is you're "demonstrating" with it. you say it is a "proof of concept", but what exactly is the concept? this book is dirt-simple -- among the simplest possible 10%, i'd say. and the markup you did pales against that routinely coming from d.p. i don't see anything but ordinary-and-mundane in what you've done. (i sincerely don't mean anything derogatory in saying that, because the job you did is competent, and that is all that is really required. i just don't see anything over and above simple competence here. but if i'm missing something, please do feel free to enlighten me.) > to experiment with new ideas i don't see any. > to get my hands "dirty" with the production process > (although I've transcribed a dozen texts before), but you've just told us that you used a one-time-only process here. (good thing, too, because, as we agree, your process was primitive.) and basically, you borrowed an e-text that someone else produced! that's a good trick, when you can do it. but it won't scale very far. and it can hardly be considered to be "proof of concept". > and to use it for showing to some people interested in this. ok, well i hope it "worked"... there's one born every minute... > This will be a tough test for your "we-don't-need-DP" approach: i never said anything close to that. i think d.p. is swell. many people digitize books individually and independently, so it certainly can be done. given the right tools, it can even be easy. nonetheless, i think cooperation is dandy... but as for your test, bring it on. if you have an old book, with hard-to-o.c.r. text, i highly recommend that you buy the abbyy version specialized for old, hard-to-o.c.r. books. without that, you won't know how successful o.c.r. can be. > Maybe we should do a competition (you seem to love competition!): actually, i believe competition is so 20th-century... but i love to be challenged. and i love to expose the hype people try to spin. so bring on your test. but the way i'll work it is this: you put it through d.p., and then i'll see if i can find any errors they didn't find. if i do, i'll figure out what i'll charge you to reveal them. :+) (if _i_ were you, i'd use the money to buy finereader instead.) > Of course, you will have to promise not to do > late hours hand proofing of the text -- > that'd be cheating -- you have to do it all > auto-magically as you've been advocating. right. like i'm gonna spend a lot of my time volunteering for _you_. i take on your challenges because i can smash them so effortlessly... -bowerbird From jon at noring.name Fri May 13 10:09:57 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Fri May 13 10:10:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: still more on "my antonia" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1716314733.20050513110957@noring.name> Bowerbird said: > jon said: > although, if you haven't found the errors i know about > by august -- that's 6 months after you put the file up -- > i'll submit my error-free version to project gutenberg. > at no cost. :+) No problem. I've done the scans and you can submit those, too, or I'll do it. We don't seek any credit for the text. What we do is for the benefit of the Public and for digital preservation of the Public Domain. > (but, since there _is_ a serious point here, let me address it: > what you are advocating is a system that is quite well-done, > but which is _extremely_ expensive. indeed, it's _so_ costly > that it simply _can_not_be_justified_ on a cost-benefit basis, > especially since many promised benefits will not materialize. > i'm just driving that point home to you. from the standpoint of > "every text must be perfect", it might be worth it to _you_ to > pay $50 to attain that perfection. but to end-users? no way. > they'd rather keep that $50, and live with that one little error > -- since no one has even managed to notice it so far anyway. > as for source metadata, users wouldn't pay _5_ bucks for that.) Who says I've advocated "zero" errors? It's a nice goal, but not possible without a lot of eyeballs, some auto-processing, and some luck. But we can get the error-rate down to very low levels. I am advocating DP's system (or a next-gen version of it), for digitizing texts. It is proven, it works, and it can be improved. It also has positive social implications for getting the public involved with public domain texts, and without having anyone commit much time to help. DP can be improved, of course, but so can everything. >> And of course, I won't tell you here >> exactly what errors the proofers found > do you think i can't pinpoint them myself? > (and here's a hint back for you: those weren't the ones.) I wrote a couple comments in my prior reply which you somehow missed, acknowledgeing that you certainly could find them if you wanted to. So anyway, I guess you missed those two errors which I presented. >> What you are implying by this statement is that >> *you know* what the error-free text is supposed to be. > i do. because i have the scans to refer to. :+) As do I. As does everyone. The work that we've done is right there open to the public, warts and all, with calls for it to be improved. James Linden, who graciously hosts the openreader.org site (thanks, James!), said a lot of people have downloaded the page scans, which is great news. They are intended to be preserved for public access. I do intend to upload them at the Internet Archive as well. >> Interesting that you apparently >> missed at least a couple errors. > what makes you think i missed those errors? :+) You can say what you want, but unless you "show the pudding", no one's going to believe you. Your credibility is zero. Everything that we've done is totally open to the public -- it's right there at http://www.openreader.org/myantonia/ , just like DP is an open process. That is an important factor in digitizing public domain texts -- the process needs to be open and transparent to the public. >> You did bring up a good point about the line break issue. >> This leads to my answer to Pauline's question on why I >> didn't use DP, and why I'm hesitant now to submit it to DP: > just run the scans through o.c.r. again, and keep the linebreaks. > that's what i did. that gives you an independent work-product, > which is _really_ what you need to have to find all the errors. Yes, and I noted that in my prior reply (refering to what you probably did), which you seemed to have missed. >> it would be a waste to have DP do it all over again >> when it is now in very good shape. > except it might save you 75 bucks... :+) I'm not thinking of myself on this one. What do you plan to do with the $75 anyway? Donate it to PG? Or buy a little Happiness? >> If anyone reading this wants to help and proof a few pages using >> the "primitive" system I now have (e.g., just print out the pages >> from the page scans you would like to proof, and compare them with >> the online XHTML version which shows the page numbering and breaks. >> There are other ways to do this proofing by comparison, such as >> opening up two windows in your browser, one showing the page scan >> and the other the online XHTML text.) > it is an abuse of volunteers to make them endure processes like that... Anyone who volunteers will check out what's there and decide for themselves whether they want to help out or not. It's only abuse when something is unknowingly forced on someone. You seem to imply that people are basically stupid and easily duped, except you of course. Maybe that's not your intent, but words sometimes can be misconstrued. Except for the lack of consistent line-breaks, which would make proofing easier, what we have is actually not that primitive based on how many proofers/copyeditors already work. DP is better, of course. >> As noted above, I would use a DP process for "mass production", >> but for this particular project did not for the reasons cited above. > well, if you run it through abbyy finereader v7.x, the output is clean. I'm aware of how clean it is since I had a few pages (but not the whole book) run through abbyy 7. It still contains numerous errors, a significant number of which cannot be found/properly-auto-corrected by post-processing tools. This worship of abbyy 7 by you is perplexing. It is very, very good, but it is *not perfect* --it's just an imperfect tool to be used as part of an overall process. > this book would fly through d.p. -- i'd be surprised if it lasted over > 3 hours in the queue, because the scans are clear, the text clean, and > the book easy and interesting -- and you'd have a separate product, > which is worth gold. so you're just not thinking very clearly here... Possibly. I made the decision back in Jan./Feb. to meet a deadline. And as noted, it did not need to be ultra-clean for that demo, just clean enough. And not having the tools available to me (such as abbyy 7 OCRing for doing the whole text -- I now have some abbyy access via an acquaintance), I had to make do with what I could get my hands on at the time. >> "My Antonia" is, and has always been, a demonstration project > i guess i'm still not sure what it is you're "demonstrating" with it. > you say it is a "proof of concept", but what exactly is the concept? > this book is dirt-simple -- among the simplest possible 10%, i'd say. > and the markup you did pales against that routinely coming from d.p. > > i don't see anything but ordinary-and-mundane in what you've done. The markup is mundane, but then most markup for most books is pretty mundane. Mundane is not the issue. This document is being used as part of a bigger project dealing with the use of texts, including interpublication linking, community text annotation, blogs/vlogs, etc. You don't see that because that is not being shown on the particular entry point to the demo page. There's a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff going on elsewhere. Look again at the "mundane" markup. There's a little more there than meets the eye. > (i sincerely don't mean anything derogatory in saying that, because > the job you did is competent, and that is all that is really required. > i just don't see anything over and above simple competence here. > but if i'm missing something, please do feel free to enlighten me.) No offense is taken. This demo project is just a small part of a much bigger non-profit project, which I've actually revealed a lot about if you know how to read between the lines of my many prior messages on this. You are only seeing the tip of the iceberg, so it is understandable that you keep making wrong assumptions and beating the wrong-end of a dead horse. At this time I don't want to go into the full details of what we are doing since that would be premature. This is a project with over a half-dozen people working hard in the digital library arena. Will we succeed? I don't know, but there's a lot of activity going on behind-the-scenes, lots of people we are talking with, etc. If we succeed per our plan, PG and DP will benefit, but that's all I can say at present, not to get anyone's hopes up. If we don't succeed, then we will have learned a lot, and it will spawn a couple other more directed non-profit business ventures I'm now outlining, and which I've alluded to the last few months. I suppose you missed those hints since you seem not to have taken the time to read and comprehend what I have written. Fine, it's your right not to accurately read. In the meanwhile, finishing up "My Antonia" will benefit the public, even if it is only one text out of millions. Every text that PG/DP works on benefits the public -- each one is precious to someone in some way. That's why your playing games with "My Antonia" errata submission is probably seen by most here as self-centered and vindictive rather than helpful to the public and the goals of digitizing public domain texts. >> to experiment with new ideas > i don't see any. Laugh, pay me $100 and I'll show them to you. Of course, I'll donate the $100, half to PG and half to DP. >> to get my hands "dirty" with the production process >> (although I've transcribed a dozen texts before), > but you've just told us that you used a one-time-only process here. > (good thing, too, because, as we agree, your process was primitive.) You seem to have trouble with simple reading comprehension. The focus of this project was not on the production process of the text (except maybe for producing the scans). I've noted many times that in "mass production" my process would NOT be used. Rather a DP or DP-like production/proofing process would be used. The process I chose was based on time and resource constraints plus focusing on the needs of the demo which are NOT production-related. Did I make the right decisions then? Maybe not. But I hit the deadline for the goals I had to hit. Now I want to finish the project for the good of the Public Domain, and we are where we are. > and basically, you borrowed an e-text that someone else produced! > that's a good trick, when you can do it. but it won't scale very far. > and it can hardly be considered to be "proof of concept". I had a deadline. Yes, maybe submitting it to DP would have been the better approach. (On the other hand, I had to have full control over the process to make sure I met the deadline. DP does not work with such deadlines and it would have been *totally wrong* for me to even ask them to meet a time deadline of *mine*. DP produces digital texts as they produce them, on their timetable, as it should be. This is the core reason I was hesitant to even ask DP to help at the time. I respect what they do, and don't want to abuse their system.) But this is all water under the bridge. The focus now is to finish the proofing of "My Antonia" so it can be donated to PG (and elsewhere) as a finished product that we can back up. Your help, of course, is much appreciated. Since you already submitted a few errata, your name has already been added to the list of proofers at the "My Antonia" web site at http://www.openreader.org/myantonia/ . >> This will be a tough test for your "we-don't-need-DP" approach: > i never said anything close to that. i think d.p. is swell. > many people digitize books individually and independently, > so it certainly can be done. given the right tools, it can > even be easy. nonetheless, i think cooperation is dandy... You've stated many times that you believe your "system" will *soon* (if not now) make D.P. unnecessary. And several have taken you to task on this assertion. Human proofers/final-assemblers will always be needed to do final proofing, cleanup and markup (or structuring if not working in XML) of digital texts, at least for the next couple decades, to make them high-quality, fully usable, repurposeable texts. Yes, you can create digital texts using an automated system, and they could even look pretty clean (however that is defined), but they will still be insufficient, buggy, and not fully usable. I've given several examples already which prove this simple point, which interestingly you have not commented upon. Why? Because you can't. Until we get mature A.I. with systems that fully comprehend content in multiple languages and dialects (essentially sentient systems with the comprehension, intelligence, and *life experience* of today's proofers/copyeditors), there will still be a need for human proofing to finalize digital texts (of which D.P. is a great system to mobilize people to help with proofing/copyediting/final-assembly.) (As an aside, this brings up my thoughts to contact that guy in Utah who is the real "Rain Man". He has unbelievable talents that could be used for digitizing texts.) > but as for your test, bring it on. if you have an old book, > with hard-to-o.c.r. text, i highly recommend that you buy > the abbyy version specialized for old, hard-to-o.c.r. books. > without that, you won't know how successful o.c.r. can be. As I noted before, I have access to the latest version of the top-end abbyy 7 via an acquaintance. But since there's a per-page fee, I try to avoid asking too much help from him since he is paying for it (of course, I could pay him, I suppose -- he did volunteer OCRing but I don't want to abuse his generosity, but to save it up for when I really need it.) I suppose I can ask him to run OCR on "My Antonia" and then I'll use that as a third source to compare with the other two, as you have done (hmmm, how do *you* have access to abbyy 7? Does it run on your legacy Mac? How do you afford it?) But why not make public your abbyy 7 raw text? In addition, however, I still want human proofers to go through the "My Antonia" text in order to validate the work in a public setting. This is part (but not all) of the trustworthiness requirement -- to have several independent eyeballs go through the text to verify authenticity and completeness. > and i love to expose the hype people try to spin.... Like your hype that DP-like systems are unnecessary? > but the way i'll work it is this: you put it through d.p., > and then i'll see if i can find any errors they didn't find. > if i do, i'll figure out what i'll charge you to reveal them. :+) This "challenge" is really of interest to many. It's not just some personal interest of mine. In fact, Brewster Kahle at the Internet Archive mentioned to me a few months ago (and I assume he's already talked with Juliet and/or Charles -- didn't he also bring this up at the Dec. 2003 PG meeting which you and I attended?) that he wants a careful selection (cross-section) of already-scanned books to be highly-proofed by DP near to the *zero-error* level. These texts will then form a "test suite" to be used for future testing of various OCR and post-processing packages for text error rate estimation, and to improve open-source-based OCR applications (especially for better font handling to deal with the vagaries of older books.) Having essentially perfect digital texts to compare with creates a useful baseline for testing OCR. Now you may say we've arrived with current OCR, so his test suite is useless. He is very aware of abbyy 7 yet he wants to assemble the "test suite". What does he know about OCR that you don't? >> Of course, you will have to promise not to do >> late hours hand proofing of the text -- >> that'd be cheating -- you have to do it all >> auto-magically as you've been advocating. > right. like i'm gonna spend a lot of my time volunteering for _you_. > i take on your challenges because i can smash them so effortlessly... As noted above, this is not for *me* -- it's for starting to build a test suite to benefit everyone involved in digitizing Public Domain texts. With regards to "My Antonia", that will be donated to PG once I am satisfied the error rate is very low and can demonstrate trustworthiness. Since you've apparently already done OCR on it using abbyy 7 to create a raw text version that can be used to help locate a few remaining errors (by the procedure mentioned in my prior reply, which most already know about so it's nothing earth-shattering), then that is something I don't need to duplicate. Unnecessary duplication is a waste -- it is inefficient. Why you do not freely share the errata on "My Antonia" seems more to do with vindictiveness and selfishness rather than trying to benefit the public. I guess I'll have to ask my friend to donate some abbyy OCR scans for the project if we don't get enough proofers to help out the next month or so (I haven't really begun advertising for them yet, pending a time when I have time to help those who do volunteer.) Of course, anyone reading this who is willing to donate some abbyy 7 OCR raw text, let me know! Jon Noring From jon at noring.name Fri May 13 10:56:36 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Fri May 13 10:57:09 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] More on "My Antonia" (was Reply comments on In-Reply-To: <1115988571_32541@mail> References: <1115988571_32541@mail> Message-ID: <1072603434.20050513115636@noring.name> [both a public and private reply] Josh wrote: > Jon Noring wrote: >> Also, anyone here interesting in >> converting the markup to TEI? (It should be relatively straightforward >> since I use a structural/semantic markup which is relatively >> compatible with TEI markup principles.)] > Jon, I'm currently working closely with Marcello on the PGTEI > spec. I'd love to have My Antonia to convert to TEI. > > Either send me a .zip file of the HTML you've got or give me a > link to a download site and I'll put it on my to-do list. I can > probably get to it middle to late next week. Thanks! The valid XHTML 1.1 version in its current state (which is now of pretty low error rate, but could be improved as Bowerbird and I have been "lively" discussing), is found at: http://www.openreader.org/myantonia/ Any of the links to the "XHTML 1.1" versions (using different stylesheets) brings up the same identical XHTML 1.1 document, such as: http://www.openreader.org/myantonia/basic-design-nopagenum/myantonia.html Undoubtedly there are some things I've done in markup which could have been done better, especially with regards to "better mapability" to TEI. I certainly would like feedback on this. We can also chat by phone (on my penny) or on Skype or other free VoIP, if that will be more efficient for you to resolve anything in it which may not be clear (I'd like to know that, too.) Of course, everything in the "front matter" section will probably require more work. I'm not sure how you want to handle things like the Table of Contents. I have planned to revamp and simplify the front matter section (for now I tried to emulate the original layout of the Title Page, for example, but plan something more generic and simple for the final product since most front-matter stuff is metadata rather than content-related.) The encoding itself is pure ASCII (thus UTF-8 conformant) and all the special characters are represented by both numeric and mnemonic character entities, the manifest of which is located at the top of the document. With regards to fixing of the few remaining errors, I'll document that from now on so the TEI version can be simultaneously fixed. Thanks! Jon Noring From geoff.horton at gmail.com Fri May 13 11:50:39 2005 From: geoff.horton at gmail.com (Geoff Horton) Date: Fri May 13 11:51:35 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg Message-ID: <94e5f596050513115045ff9385@mail.gmail.com> I've been mulling over ideas for applying Natural Language Processing to catch hard-to-find errors in e-texts. I have made little practical progress, but for some reason it occurred to me to try a few carefully chosen Google searches, all restricted to site:www.gutenberg.org. "around the comer" returns 17 hits. "turn the comer" returns no hits. "to he" returns 10,700 hits, a fair number of them not representing typos. "have clone", 13 hits. "will bo", 1 hit. "to bo", 38, some legit (often using "Bo" as a proper noun) "went borne" (for "went home"), 5 hits, one of which is legit and the other being four different editions of the same work, all with the same error. "fax away", 1 hit. "coining to", 23 hits, some legit. "he docs", 7, with some repeat editions. "it docs", 9, with repeats, but offset by two hits in one work. "she docs", none. I don't know what all that proves, but I found it interesting nonetheless. From jon at noring.name Fri May 13 12:03:02 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Fri May 13 12:03:12 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg In-Reply-To: <94e5f596050513115045ff9385@mail.gmail.com> References: <94e5f596050513115045ff9385@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1753330819.20050513130302@noring.name> Geoff wrote: > I've been mulling over ideas for applying Natural Language Processing > to catch hard-to-find errors in e-texts. I have made little practical > progress, but for some reason it occurred to me to try a few carefully > chosen Google searches, all restricted to site:www.gutenberg.org. > > "around the comer" returns 17 hits. > "turn the comer" returns no hits. > "to he" returns 10,700 hits, a fair number of them not representing typos. > "have clone", 13 hits. > "will bo", 1 hit. > "to bo", 38, some legit (often using "Bo" as a proper noun) > "went borne" (for "went home"), 5 hits, one of which is legit and the > other being four different editions of the same work, all with the > same error. > "fax away", 1 hit. > "coining to", 23 hits, some legit. > "he docs", 7, with some repeat editions. > "it docs", 9, with repeats, but offset by two hits in one work. > "she docs", none. > > I don't know what all that proves, but I found it interesting nonetheless. Fascinating work! I'm not sure what it proves, either, but it does show that even though some automated post-processing based on NLP can clean up a lot of OCR errors, that such processing cannot catch them all, and in more than a few cases may even "correct" what was not an error (false positive). (Now such tools can be used to find possible errors, and then a human being makes a decision on what to do. But now we are back into the human proofing realm, using tools to make the human proofreader's life easier, rather than trying to replace the human.) In short, it shows the need for good ole' human proofing as exemplified by DP to convert raw OCR texts to finished, high-quality digital texts. The focus should be on giving the proofers better tools to do their job better and easier, and not trying to replace them. Jon Noring From sly at victoria.tc.ca Fri May 13 12:04:05 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Fri May 13 12:04:16 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg In-Reply-To: <94e5f596050513115045ff9385@mail.gmail.com> References: <94e5f596050513115045ff9385@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Interesting analysis, thanks. So where to go from here? With our current set-up, to merely generate a list of these and submit them as corrections would be somewhat overloading our volunteers. Also, usually, where you have one error in a text, there are others close by. So it would be worthwhile to take a closer look at the texts indicated by these searches, and fix more errors at once. However, this process can be rather tedious, and does not attract the attention of volunteers the same way that digitizing a new text does. Andrew On Fri, 13 May 2005, Geoff Horton wrote: > I've been mulling over ideas for applying Natural Language Processing > to catch hard-to-find errors in e-texts. I have made little practical > progress, but for some reason it occurred to me to try a few carefully > chosen Google searches, all restricted to site:www.gutenberg.org. > > "around the comer" returns 17 hits. > "turn the comer" returns no hits. > "to he" returns 10,700 hits, a fair number of them not representing typos. > "have clone", 13 hits. > "will bo", 1 hit. > "to bo", 38, some legit (often using "Bo" as a proper noun) > "went borne" (for "went home"), 5 hits, one of which is legit and the > other being four different editions of the same work, all with the > same error. > "fax away", 1 hit. > "coining to", 23 hits, some legit. > "he docs", 7, with some repeat editions. > "it docs", 9, with repeats, but offset by two hits in one work. > "she docs", none. > > I don't know what all that proves, but I found it interesting nonetheless. > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > From jon_niehof at yahoo.com Fri May 13 12:10:19 2005 From: jon_niehof at yahoo.com (Jon Niehof) Date: Fri May 13 12:10:29 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050513191019.94882.qmail@web41608.mail.yahoo.com> Geoff, I find your approach fascinating because I usually think of error-catching in posted texts as a smoothreading sort of task (I can't read anything from PG without ending up sending back a list of errors...I keep Jim busy), or at least a text-by-text verification. But, rather than searching for all errors in one book, you're searching for particular errors across the whole set--the obvious extrapolation here is some sort of tool that would blast through the whole archive and create a list of candidate errors that could then be checked over and eventually result in a list of corrections to each text. It'd be a lot of work (to develop the tool, sift through the output, and eventually apply to the texts), but it could result in a significant one-time jump in the quality of the texts that are already posted. And a serious bandwidth hit to the PG server the first time they're all pulled for checking... Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From geoff.horton at gmail.com Fri May 13 12:23:28 2005 From: geoff.horton at gmail.com (Geoff Horton) Date: Fri May 13 12:23:37 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg In-Reply-To: <20050513191019.94882.qmail@web41608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050513191019.94882.qmail@web41608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <94e5f59605051312238044fdb@mail.gmail.com> > Geoff, I find your approach fascinating because I usually think > of error-catching in posted texts as a smoothreading sort of > task That's how I do it when I'm working for PG (or PGDP). But I get frustrated when gutcheck finds stuff I should have caught, and that also causes me to worry that I've missed something else of the same sort. My original plan (which is probably what put me onto this idea in the first place) was inspired by a he/be finding program mentioned in the PGDP forum. That led me to wonder whether I could let a work proof itself (so to speak) by building a list of all pairs of words in the book and then looking at the ones which appeared only once or twice. Unfortunately, applying this to a text I just post-processed (_The King's Achievement_, not yet posted to PG) resulted in 61,920 pairs of words--46,354 of which appeared only once. So much for that theory. I could cut down the totals a bit by being smarter about the end of sentences, but I don't think it would make enough difference to make the idea workable. The key to the original program, and to what I was doing playing with the archives, is coming up with the phrases that will find the problem. For example, just searching for "clone" turns up 107 hits, many of which are legit. Searching for "be clone" turns up 19, including repeats, none of which are legit. So I think the basic idea has merit, but darned if I know how to move it into a more practical stage. Geoff From sly at victoria.tc.ca Fri May 13 12:55:22 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Fri May 13 12:55:37 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg In-Reply-To: <94e5f59605051312238044fdb@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050513191019.94882.qmail@web41608.mail.yahoo.com> <94e5f59605051312238044fdb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 May 2005, Geoff Horton wrote: > > Geoff, I find your approach fascinating because I usually think > > of error-catching in posted texts as a smoothreading sort of > > task > > That's how I do it when I'm working for PG (or PGDP). But I get > frustrated when gutcheck finds stuff I should have caught, and that > also causes me to worry that I've missed something else of the same > sort. > Geoff, don't feel bad. In my experience, there are _always_ at least one or two small things that you've overlooked that someone else can find, if they try hard enough. A while ago, Jim oversaw a "cooperative reproofing" experiment. He would select a text already in the archive, and everyone who wanted to participate would proofread it in whatever way they wished, and correct any errors found. Jim would then collate the results, make a single improved text, and assign a "score" for each contributor based on the number of errors found minus the number of "false positives". We went through a few texts this way. The interesting point is that, apparantly, with a group of 5-7 people individually examining the same text, each person usually found at least one error that none of the others did. (Although I suppose you could look closer into the fine line between what constitutes an "error" and what is only a formatting difference, etc.) Andrew From jtinsley at pobox.com Fri May 13 13:18:22 2005 From: jtinsley at pobox.com (Jim Tinsley) Date: Fri May 13 13:18:32 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg In-Reply-To: <94e5f59605051312238044fdb@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050513191019.94882.qmail@web41608.mail.yahoo.com> <94e5f59605051312238044fdb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050513201822.GA19456@panix.com> On Fri, May 13, 2005 at 03:23:28PM -0400, Geoff Horton wrote: > >The key to the original program, and to what I was doing playing with >the archives, is coming up with the phrases that will find the >problem. For example, just searching for "clone" turns up 107 hits, >many of which are legit. Searching for "be clone" turns up 19, >including repeats, none of which are legit. So I think the basic idea >has merit, but darned if I know how to move it into a more practical >stage. Hint: look hard at the source of jeebies and my discussion of the half I dropped on the floor in writing my current version. Apply both the dumb-brick logic and the too-clever-for-its-own-good logic, and you're much closer -- or should that be doser? :-) Gutcheck and GuiGuts would both have flagged all of your original stealth scannos -- with, admittedly, a considerable helping of false positives, depending on the text. Getting rid of the false positives is, as you've found, more difficult. "clone" and "modem" are very safe to flag as queries, ear / car, eat / cat and he / be are more difficult, requiring either heuristics or patterns, preferably both, and I will bow to anyone who manages tram / train! and / arid is a particularly interesting case: "and" is about seven and a half thousand times as common as "arid", and, incidentally, if you follow this through, you'll find that conjunctions are the bane of any analysis scheme for _all_ words, so there is no benefit in trying to distinguish these either by patterns or heuristics: just flag "arid" every time it appears, and move on. And so it goes. Jeebies also works for other stealth scanno pairs, if you feed it their databases, by the way; hut / but, tom / torn, eat / cat and so on. But as I said in the forums, my disappointment once I got the current scheme going was that OCR quality has improved so much, it's not as effective as it would have been 10 years ago. However, I will notch your interest up as another vote for me to finish it. :-) jim From geoff.horton at gmail.com Fri May 13 13:38:31 2005 From: geoff.horton at gmail.com (Geoff Horton) Date: Fri May 13 13:38:41 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg In-Reply-To: <20050513201822.GA19456@panix.com> References: <20050513191019.94882.qmail@web41608.mail.yahoo.com> <94e5f59605051312238044fdb@mail.gmail.com> <20050513201822.GA19456@panix.com> Message-ID: <94e5f59605051313382a481295@mail.gmail.com> > And so it goes. Jeebies also works for other stealth scanno pairs, > if you feed it their databases, by the way; hut / but, tom / torn, > eat / cat and so on. I was trying/hoping to come up with a way to catch such things without having to build the databases (Larry Wall says laziness is a programming virtue, after all). In particular, I was (and am) looking for a way to deal with the scannos where both words are common--the thought of going through a text looking at each instance of "is" to determine whether it should be "as", and vice-versa, is markedly unappealing. I really can't see vocab lists picking that up. I will go back and look at the source, though I'm not a C expert by any stretch. > But as I said in the forums, my disappointment > once I got the current scheme going was that OCR quality has > improved so much, it's not as effective as it would have been > 10 years ago. However, I will notch your interest up as another > vote for me to finish it. :-) Please do. I think the better OCR makes the problem worse, not better, because it makes the signal to noise ratio (viewing errors as the signal, which admittedly is weird) so low that it's really, really easy to see what _should_ be there rather than what actually as. Is. :) Geoff From jtinsley at pobox.com Fri May 13 13:47:32 2005 From: jtinsley at pobox.com (Jim Tinsley) Date: Fri May 13 13:47:43 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg In-Reply-To: <94e5f59605051313382a481295@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050513191019.94882.qmail@web41608.mail.yahoo.com> <94e5f59605051312238044fdb@mail.gmail.com> <20050513201822.GA19456@panix.com> <94e5f59605051313382a481295@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050513204732.GA11297@panix.com> On Fri, May 13, 2005 at 04:38:31PM -0400, Geoff Horton wrote: > >I will go back and look at the source, though I'm not a C expert by any stretch. > Well, the point is that it uses a three-word, not two-word, phrasebook where possible, and (what I forgot was not in that version of the source) clues from the sentence structure and "nearby" words. >> But as I said in the forums, my disappointment >> once I got the current scheme going was that OCR quality has >> improved so much, it's not as effective as it would have been >> 10 years ago. However, I will notch your interest up as another >> vote for me to finish it. :-) > >Please do. I think the better OCR makes the problem worse, not better, >because it makes the signal to noise ratio (viewing errors as the >signal, which admittedly is weird) so low that it's really, really >easy to see what _should_ be there rather than what actually as. Is. >:) Ah! So you're a fan of Pauline's "assisi"! :-) jim From servalan at ar.com.au Fri May 13 15:50:23 2005 From: servalan at ar.com.au (Pauline) Date: Fri May 13 15:50:46 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg In-Reply-To: <20050513204732.GA11297@panix.com> References: <20050513191019.94882.qmail@web41608.mail.yahoo.com> <94e5f59605051312238044fdb@mail.gmail.com> <20050513201822.GA19456@panix.com> <94e5f59605051313382a481295@mail.gmail.com> <20050513204732.GA11297@panix.com> Message-ID: <42852F2F.2050709@ar.com.au> Jim Tinsley wrote: > Ah! So you're a fan of Pauline's "assisi"! :-) :) For less frequently occuring scannos, I am a huge fan of guiguts (gooey front end to gutcheck) which has inbuilt & completely customisable scanno highlighting along with so many other features which assist processing texts that I wouldn't process a text without it. You can have a look at a guiguts screen shot here, showing the scanno highlighting: http://www.pgdp.net/squirrels/guiguts_screen.jpg Guiguts home page: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/thundergnat/guiguts.html & there's lots of guiguts discussion & help on the DP Forums, along with a collection thread for the scannos which post-processors find when working on texts. Collected common scannos are added to the lists which guiguts uses by default (or you can modify the scanno lists yourself if you wish). Cheers, P -- Help digitise public domain books: Distributed Proofreaders: http://www.pgdp.net "Preserving history one page at a time." Set free dead-tree books: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/servalan From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri May 13 16:17:45 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri May 13 16:18:03 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg Message-ID: <6d.45489c97.2fb68f99@aol.com> jeff said: > I've been mulling over ideas alright! someone around here is thinking for once! :+) > for applying Natural Language Processing > to catch hard-to-find errors in e-texts. oh-oh. a lapse into acronym-land. not a good sign of quality thinking... ;+) > I have made little practical progress i suggest you ditch the acronym; those things just weigh you down... :+) > but for some reason it occurred to me to > try a few carefully chosen Google searches, > all restricted to site:www.gutenberg.org. good idea. so ok, let's take a look. > "around the comer" returns 17 hits. seems like that's a stealth scanno that should be in the dictionary already, yep. is jim tinsley taking these notes down as error-reports? > "turn the comer" returns no hits. i guess we turned the corner on that one... > "to he" returns 10,700 hits, > a fair number of them not representing typos. false alarms are counterproductive; that's the big problem with gutcheck. every false alarm wastes your time. however -- in contrast to misses, which are invisible, and therefore cannot be instructive -- false alarms _do_ give you information about how to improve your process... that is why you need to treasure them, and to study them. (yes, for the acronym-lovers among us, this is signal-detection theory in action. s.d.t. to you.) > "have clone", 13 hits. have clone, will reproduce. > "will bo", 1 hit. roger wilco. > "to bo", 38, some legit (often using "Bo" as a proper noun) again, you need to examine the false alarms closely, to see if they reveal clues how to make your search more fine-grained. here, for instance, the "b" in the false alarms is capitalized, when it otherwise would not be, indicating it's a proper noun, and gives a reason to weight those instances less heavily, or indeed, if happening repeatedly in one e-text, even ignore 'em. this is where most people go bad. they hit a few false alarms, think "oh no, this isn't working", and give up. that is so wrong! as long as the number of false alarms isn't overwhelming you, it's much more cost-effective to take the hits that you got and then go to work on improving performance on the false alarms... > "went borne" (for "went home"), 5 hits, one of which is legit > and the other being four different editions of the same work, > all with the same error. at least the _errors_ are consistent! ;+) but do you see a pattern emerging here? > "fax away", 1 hit. what should it be? although "fax" _could_ be in a scanno dictionary, for "far", i'd take it out, because very few public-domain books have the word "fax" in them, do they? ;+) so look at every instance of "fax", pure and simple. > "coining to", 23 hits, some legit. any clues as to how to tell the machine to tell the difference? start digging, and dig deep. > "he docs", 7, with some repeat editions. "docs" might be in a list of stealth scannos too. but again, let's be realistic. how often does it come up legitimately? and in the rare case it does come up legitimately... > "it docs", 9, with repeats, but offset by two hits in one work. ...it might come up in that book more than one time, right? and by now, you should definitely see a certain pattern... > "she docs", none. does she? i guess she doesn't... > I don't know what all that proves, > but I found it interesting nonetheless. it proves you're getting smarter about how to find errors in an e-text. (inform jon noring you've started brewing some artificial intelligence!) um, and yes, i know the impetus for this comes from jim's approach. and i could tell you, and jim, how to go about making it even smarter. but my impression is that jim just doesn't care too much to listen... so, meanwhile, can you say -- explicitly and consciously -- what you have done here that has extended jim's notions in a meaningful and important way? and how is that related to the pattern that revealed itself? (and what is that pattern?) -bowerbird From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri May 13 16:41:42 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri May 13 16:41:59 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg Message-ID: andrew said: > The interesting point is that, apparantly, with a group of > 5-7 people individually examining the same text, > each person usually found at least one error > that none of the others did. that means all the proofers are missing some. :+) someone over on one of the d.p. forums once posted a mathematical formula that you can use in such a situation to predict how many undiscovered errors remain in that e-text... this formula is a valuable thing to be aware of, since that information is usually opaque to you. -bowerbird From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri May 13 16:57:09 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri May 13 16:57:26 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg Message-ID: <111.4a31c1b5.2fb698d5@aol.com> jon said: > such tools can be used to find possible errors, > and then a human being makes a decision on what to do. that's what the tools were always intended to do, jon. that's why we call them "tools", and not "proofreaders". > But now we are back into the human proofing realm, nobody ever left that realm except you and your misrepresentations... > using tools to make the human proofreader's life easier, > rather than trying to replace the human.) if you repeat a misrepresentation enough times, do people actually start to believe it? do you? > In short, it shows the need for good ole' human proofing > as exemplified by DP to convert raw OCR texts > to finished, high-quality digital texts. d.p. is one way to proof a text. it's not the only way. jeff just showed us another way to find lots of errors. > The focus should be on giving the proofers better tools to > do their job better and easier, and not trying to replace them. that's been my focus. and i'll be releasing an app to do just that. what have you been doing in this specific regard? -bowerbird p.s. i've got responses to your earlier posts too, jon, but this thread is a lot more interesting than yours is. From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri May 13 17:07:56 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri May 13 17:08:14 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg Message-ID: <1aa.37faaa39.2fb69b5c@aol.com> andrew said: > So where to go from here? > With our current set-up, > to merely generate a list of these > and submit them as corrections > would be somewhat overloading our volunteers. sounds like you need some better tools. or, even better yet, a thorough revamping of your error-detection and error-correction processes... you need to have a system that runs a test like this, then automatically summons the scans and the e-text, side-by-side so you can make a decision on the matter -- one small matter here, you need to do the scans -- and then lets you click a button that will automatically make the change, and generate everything necessary, like an updated change-log, new derivative versions, a post message, e-mail to that e-text's listserve, etc. by the way, a subset of this system -- the part that calls up the scan and the text for a comparison -- is what the public can use to verify an error-report. although you'd want to do these tests proactively, it also never hurts to let end-users help you out... in a post to this listserve from maybe 6-9 months ago, i detailed the complete architecture for such a system. the message was ignored. perhaps it should be revisited. -bowerbird From rvijay07 at myway.com Fri May 13 17:29:58 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Fri May 13 17:30:18 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] HandHeld & E-Books Message-ID: <20050514002958.ACCB0398D@mprdmxin.myway.com> How convenient are handhelds to read E-books ? Specially in terms of eye strain and power lasting etc., ? Reading E-Books from a desktop is strainful, specially if one is at the PC at work all day. Any other related info. welcome. Thanks in advance. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Fri May 13 17:31:36 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Fri May 13 17:31:55 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] How to add Reviews for a PG E-Book ? Message-ID: <20050514003136.99E8D398D@mprdmxin.myway.com> How to add Reviews for a PG E-Book ? This may seem simple but I am lost in this regard. Please assist. Thanks. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Fri May 13 17:37:41 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Fri May 13 17:38:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Digital Library of India Message-ID: <20050514003741.D0DEF3994@mprdmxin.myway.com> Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: >> i would think that's precisely what michael hart had in mind with that new project of his... >> and yes, it is a great idea... >> the logical extension of his earlier invention of the e-book, collecting them as a library... >> except the extension had to endure a mere 20 months (or so) of flack, not 20 years, like his earlier one... -bowerbird The early 20 years of flak was *FELT* for the most part was due to the fact that very few people had PCs and were on the net. In other words there was nothing against the project then. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Fri May 13 17:44:45 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Fri May 13 17:45:05 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Challenges for PG. Message-ID: <20050514004445.C4D813971@mprdmxin.myway.com> What are some of the challenges for PG in your opinion ? I thought of starting this topic after my recent experience. I gave the PG CD to 3 people who expressed interest. One was honest and said that she and her husband saw it for like 10 minutes and wanted to read it more. However, at work they are in front of their PC all day. Hence, to be at home again in front of the PC is strainful for their eyes/posture etc., Also quantitatively, they have limited time and hence even if they did, can read just a few of those books. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri May 13 17:45:10 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri May 13 17:45:34 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] HandHeld & E-Books Message-ID: <210.c20153.2fb6a416@aol.com> vijay said: > How convenient are handhelds to read E-books ? some people swear by them. -bowerbird From jon at noring.name Fri May 13 17:50:48 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Fri May 13 17:51:08 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg In-Reply-To: <111.4a31c1b5.2fb698d5@aol.com> References: <111.4a31c1b5.2fb698d5@aol.com> Message-ID: <1981989663.20050513185048@noring.name> Bowerbird wrote: > Jon said: >> The focus should be on giving the proofers better tools to >> do their job better and easier, and not trying to replace them. > that's been my focus. Really? Many of your prior posts have essentially implied that DP is unnecessary *today*. Here's your equation: abbyy7 + your-sooper-dooper-tools = no-more-need-for-DP This to me sounds like "replace DP by automated tools" which even those involved in DP would probably love to see happen. But I know enough that achieving this goal is a long ways off, requiring sentient-level AI (think of Commander Data in Star Trek TNG.) Of course, tools to help locate errors is *good*, but even these tools need to be used by humans with care, with eyes wide open, knowing that such tools will find false positives, and other problems. Additionally, it is not only important to find scanning errors (and this includes full Unicode character set support), but it is *equally* important to understand, and markup, the *structures* associated with all portions of the content. This is something that *has* to be done by human beings. It cannot be done automagically, at least with anything near acceptable accuracy (as shown by a few trivial examples I posted here a while back.) To produce high-quality Structured Digital Texts requires a significant expenditure of human sweat. One can't get around this fact of life. DP has figured out a clever way to mobilize a large number of willing volunteers to do most of this work (I suppose you will say these people are being duped.) Moving a hill looks formidable to one person, even if they have a bulldozer; but 10000 people with pails and shovels can move the hill in no time, with time to celebrate with a huge barbecue party in the late evening. > and i'll be releasing an app to do just that. We all look forward to your app. Is it part of an open-source project where you can leverage the help of many sharp people? Or are you a go-it-alone kind of person? Do you intend to open source your codebase, or donate it to PG/DP, so it can benefit those who need it most? Or do you plan to keep it proprietary and sell it for Big $$$ (good luck!), so PG/DP would not be able to afford it? Or are you planning for your app make DP a thing of the past? > what have you been doing in this specific regard? Discussing the general issues associated with this topic. That's a legitimate thing to do: to add to the idea pool. Successful application development is built upon the synthesis of ideas and requirements contributed by many people with different perspectives and skill sets. Nothing worthwhile is developed in a vacuum. PG succeeded as it has because Michael Hart mobilized *people* with all kinds of skill sets. He didn't write a cool app on his own. DP has succeeded beyond anyone's wildest dreams because it is built around mobilizing *people*. People are what make good things happen, not solitary figures working in a basement, out of touch with reality and with people, releasing some "app" every once in a while. This is why I keep asking you why you don't move your project to SourceForge and get a bunch of sharp people, each of whom will bring in skills you don't have, to help you build your vision? (You do have a lot of good ideas.) It just amazes me why you don't see the importance of *people* in the equation of digitizing the Public Domain. Jon Noring From geoff.horton at gmail.com Fri May 13 18:09:56 2005 From: geoff.horton at gmail.com (Geoff Horton) Date: Fri May 13 18:10:10 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg In-Reply-To: <42852F2F.2050709@ar.com.au> References: <20050513191019.94882.qmail@web41608.mail.yahoo.com> <94e5f59605051312238044fdb@mail.gmail.com> <20050513201822.GA19456@panix.com> <94e5f59605051313382a481295@mail.gmail.com> <20050513204732.GA11297@panix.com> <42852F2F.2050709@ar.com.au> Message-ID: <94e5f596050513180948dfe47e@mail.gmail.com> > :) For less frequently occuring scannos, I am a huge fan of guiguts > (gooey front end to gutcheck) which has inbuilt & completely > customisable scanno highlighting along with so many other features which > assist processing texts that I wouldn't process a text without it. I use it and second your endorsement. The infrequent scannos aren't really the problem. It's the ones where the potential mis-scan is itself a common word that are the problem. Geoff From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri May 13 18:15:07 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri May 13 18:15:25 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg Message-ID: jon niehof said: > But, rather than searching for all errors in one book, > you're searching for particular errors across the whole set bingo. jon niehof is using his brain here. good catch. now extrapolate. -bowerbird From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri May 13 18:32:31 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri May 13 18:32:52 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg Message-ID: <75.454710f0.2fb6af2f@aol.com> jon noring said: > abbyy7 + your-sooper-dooper-tools = no-more-need-for-DP well, let's do the equation right, ok? opticbook3600 (most other scanners will start you off wrong) + careful scanning (note that this is _oh_ so very important) + image correction (deskewing and zoning regularization) + abby v7 (and using the old-book version whenever needed) + super-duper-tools, used wisely, for about 4 hours/book = an error rate of 1 error every 10 pages, good enough for + continuous proofreading (with scans available for viewing) + freshly-informed-and-motivated end-users looking for errors + a comprehensive error-detection system + a comprehensive error-reporting system + a comprehensive error-correcting system + a comprehensive system designed to foster community = a steady march toward absolute perfection in the e-texts you can sprinkle in as much or as little d.p. as you want. they are the _cooks_, and not an ingredient in the recipe. and they aren't _required_ for a meal, but they sure help! a ton of dedicated people with expertise and experience! responsible for _half_ of p.g. by the time it hits #20,000! without doubt, _the_ dynamic force in digitization today! more uplifting than google, and million-books, and kahle! (well, kahle is a large factor in their success, but still)! > but it is *equally* important to understand, and markup, > the *structures* associated with all portions of the content. > This is something that *has* to be done by human beings. > It cannot be done automagically, at least with anything near > acceptable accuracy (as shown by a few trivial examples > I posted here a while back.) blah blah blah. your examples are bull. you didn't send them here, you sent 'em to ockerbloom's list, and he would not allow my response to go through, since it destroyed your positions so thoroughly. (it was _complete_; he took it as _mean_.) repost your examples if you have the courage. given the normal degree of consideration for consistent formatting, my apps can determine the structure of a text in a matter of seconds, even on my "legacy" mac, less than the acrobat splash is up... :+) -bowerbird From gbnewby at pglaf.org Fri May 13 19:22:13 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Fri May 13 19:22:15 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] HandHeld & E-Books In-Reply-To: <20050514002958.ACCB0398D@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050514002958.ACCB0398D@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <20050514022213.GA21125@pglaf.org> On Fri, May 13, 2005 at 08:29:58PM -0400, rvijay07 wrote: > > How convenient are handhelds to read E-books ? Specially in terms of eye strain and power lasting etc., ? > > Reading E-Books from a desktop is strainful, specially if one is at the PC at work all day. I used the eBook reader from ebookwise.com for several books, and would like to read more. Unfortunately, the contemporary selections don't meet my tastes that much, and you've gotta run MS Windows to run their application to convert PG eBooks or other plain .txt or .htm to something the reader groks. So, I'm left without a lot of good choices, and have (for now, anyway) continued my "dead trees" book-buying. But it's quite convenient, works really well for low-light situations but also for brightly lit places, goes for awhile between battery charges, and overall I like it quite a bit. -- Greg From mattsen at arvig.net Fri May 13 20:31:01 2005 From: mattsen at arvig.net (Chuck MATTSEN) Date: Fri May 13 20:31:17 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] HandHeld & E-Books In-Reply-To: <20050514002958.ACCB0398D@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050514002958.ACCB0398D@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <20050513223101.49f79967@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 13 May 2005 20:29:58 -0400 (EDT) "rvijay07" typed: > How convenient are handhelds to read E-books ? Specially in terms of > eye strain and power lasting etc., ? > > Reading E-Books from a desktop is strainful, specially if one is at > the PC at work all day. FWIW, I have e-books on the PC, the Palm Tungsten E PDA and the RocketBook e-book reader. I have a lot of eye strain with both the PC and the PDA, but I absolutely /love/ reading on the RocketBook reader. Very easy on the eyes, at least for me, and a convenient size. In fact, I also got it free by joining one of those 2-books-per-month for $19.95 deals where they throw the reader in gratis. Turned out to be a good deal for me, but of course YMMV. (I added a $20 256MB SmartCard and I can't imagine wanting/needing more storage, really.) -- Chuck MATTSEN / mattsen at arvig dot net / Mahnomen, MN, USA MT Lookup: http://eot.com/~mattsen/mtsearch.htm Mandriva Linux release 2006.0 (Cooker) for i586 kernel 2.6.11-8mdk-i686-up-4GB / RLU #346519 Random Thought/Quote For This Message: Society prepares the crime; the criminal commits it. From jon at noring.name Fri May 13 20:35:51 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Fri May 13 20:36:10 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Examples of the difficulty of auto-discernment of document structure/semantics (was Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg) In-Reply-To: <75.454710f0.2fb6af2f@aol.com> References: <75.454710f0.2fb6af2f@aol.com> Message-ID: <1174874336.20050513213551@noring.name> Bowerbird wrote: > jon noring said: >> but it is *equally* important to understand, and markup, >> the *structures* associated with all portions of the content. >> This is something that *has* to be done by human beings. >> It cannot be done automagically, at least with anything near >> acceptable accuracy (as shown by a few trivial examples >> I posted here a while back.) > blah blah blah. your examples are bull. > you didn't send them here, you sent 'em > to ockerbloom's list, and he would not > allow my response to go through, since > it destroyed your positions so thoroughly. > (it was _complete_; he took it as _mean_.) > repost your examples if you have the courage. Yes, you are correct. I thought I had sent the examples to this list. Courage? I'll append the whole message below! It is interesting that John Mark Ockerbloom disallowed your reply to the message appended below. So you could not argue rationally with what I wrote? Fascinating. I assume you will simply repost your reply. I look forward to seeing it, but I'm not sure if the others here want to see it knowing that John Mark Ockerbloom disallowed it on his Book People list. He's a pretty tough moderator, but I've known him to be fair. > given the normal degree of consideration for consistent formatting, > my apps can determine the structure of a text in a matter of seconds, > even on my "legacy" mac, less than the acrobat splash is up... :+) Jon Noring *************************************************************************** (O.k., here's what I posted to the Book People list on 27-Dec-2004. Of course, I hope that others here beside Bowerbird will rationally reply to the examples and general argument, whether it be criticism, support, or both.) Bowerbird wrote: > Jon Noring said: >> Anyway, no application can discern, with any high degree of >> accuracy, the underlying structure of texts -- only human eyeballs >> can do that. > this is even more silly. i've said over and over again that > typography is the translation of structure into presentation. True, but how it's been done in the real world is hit or miss, and requires the reader to also discern the context of the words surrounding the structure (example later.) And just because one can do: structure --> typography, does not mean the reverse process of typography --> structure is just as easy (to the point where it can be done by machine) because oftentimes the same typographic construct is used to represent different structures and semantics. For an example of this "multiple uses of the same typography", the venerable "italics" is a good one. Italics are used for: linguistic emphasis literal emphasis (not the same as linguistic emphasis!) names of ships titles of certain types of books and documents word used as a word foreign phrases sometimes used for headers etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. ,etc., etc., etc. Here we map all kinds of different textual structures/semantics into one output typographical construct -- italics -- since we know the reader will be able to untangle it all by understanding the textual context where the italics appears (the textual context is the actual meaning of the flow of words). (This is an example only since some would say just duplicate the italics and let humans figure it out in the final product -- which those in the accessibility community will rightfully disagree with -- but it illustrates how the same typography is used to represent different structures/semantics, which only a contextual reading can discern -- see the example below.) > in a nutshell, that is the very _job_ that a typographer does! > if you closely study the presentation of a well-prepared book, > via its typography, you can discern its structure very accurately. True (about the typographer), but again some of the discerning structure has to do with context. In addition, there is no one standard that permeates through the decades and centuries, and from country to country; even today there is a lot of experimentation with new ways to "signal" structure to the reader. I've seen some *really* odd stuff done the last few years (such as chapter headers which run vertically within the left margin! -- do they represent a header, or a sidebar of some sort?) In most cases the reader, by knowing the textual context surrounding the typographic layout, can learn (infer) what the underlying document structure is. I've seen some pretty oddball stuff done which no program in the world is yet able to discern, but humans can do so in a few moments by "figurin' it out" after reading a part of the text. Here's one very small example to illustrate what I'm saying: (exhibit 1 -- I made this up, inspired by Sherlock Holmes) ********************************************************************** ... she walked up to the door, and on the door was a small sign with a message in stark, bold black letters which read: NO SOLICITORS OR SALES PEOPLE Ignoring the sign as if it wasn't there, she knocked on the door, intending to make the sale... *********************************************************************** (exhibit 2; adapted from an Encylopaedia Britannica article) *********************************************************************** ...Government weakness allowed the mutiny to spread; and although order was eventually restored in Istanbul and more quickly elsewhere, a force from Macedonia (the Action Army) led by Mahmud Sevket Pasa marched on Istanbul and occupied the city (April 24). DISSOLUTION OF THE EMPIRE Abdulhamid was deposed and replaced by Sultan Mehmed V (ruled 1909-18), son of Abdulmecid. The constitution was amended to transfer real power to the Parliament... ********************************************************************** In both exhibits we have a phrase all in capitals, centered between what looks like two paragraphs. Without reading and understanding the context of the capitalized phrase and the surrounding text, the next question is what are they in a document structural sense? Are they title headings to a new chapter or section? If not, what are they? For Exhibit 1 it is obvious by reading and understanding the context of that particular example that it is not a header to a new section -- it is actually a snippet of text acting almost like a facsimile image of the sign on the door -- I notice this structural construct used a lot in Sherlock Holmes works, as an example.) In the second exhibit, we see that the phrase in all capitals is truly a header to a new section of the article, like a new chapter in a book. What if these exhibits were written in some unknown language using a strange non-Latin character set? Could anyone who doesn't understand the language know what the capitalized lines represent? They could be anything, really, when one does not know the meaning of what is being said... Now, how do you write a program to accurately discern what is a header to a new chapter/section, from some other sort of construct? And of course to do so not only in English with left-to-right, but how about Arabic/Hebrew(Yiddish) with right-to-left, and traditional Han with vertical writing, etc.? (Of course, one wonders if those languages and scripts use the same typographic conventions we use here in the West to differentiate document structures? I doubt it.) The above example is only one of hundreds of different kinds of typographic constructs used for multiple purposes to represent document structure, where it is assumed a human being can tell what they mean by the textual context (e.g., the italicized text example given previously illustrates this nicely.) So, in order for an automated system to truly understand the structure of documents, it has to understand the underlying meaning of the text -- it has to become a sentient reader. There is NO computer program yet, which has the required level of artificial intelligence, to do this. That's not to say there won't be in the future, but there's been billions of dollars pumped into AI research since the 1950's, and we are not much closer to true AI than we were 30 years ago (some believe the human brain is a quantum computer, that quantum computing is a necessary prerequisite to true intelligence and sentience -- we'll see...) One can certainly continue to write and refine a computer program (to "train" it so to speak) to be able to discern the structure of text documents from OCR with higher and higher accuracy. And over time the code gets to be unbelievably complex to handle the thousands of "exceptions". But it will still take a human being to peruse over the results and sometimes correct where the program got it wrong, just like OCR doesn't always get the characters right, and so requires a human being to go through and proof the text for scanning errors. I'm not sure what Bowerbird is trying to argue, but I assume he wants a system where perfectly structured (and repurposeable) books can be obtained today by some fancy push-button OCR program not requiring any human being to tweak the output at all, so we can get zillions of high-quality books and documents online by simply pressing a button. I'd love to see this, too, but I don't believe this will be possible for several decades. Books are written, and typeset, by people for people using imperfect systems, and until the programs reach the level of intelligence and sentience of human beings, we will not be able to bypass the final human proofing/hand-structuring stage to get very high quality results -- all we can do is to reduce the amount of time needed for human proofing and hand-structuring by improving OCR programs and in post-processing programs that try to determine overall structure. ***** The other point I want to make is that I really don't think it matters how good or how bad the Internet Archive's, or Google's OCR package is, because the OCRing can be done at *any time*, by *any one*, using *any kind* of OCR package, so long as the scans are available (which IA will make available.) There may only be one chance to scan a certain book (it is quite an effort to scan a book and it may not be available for rescanning), but once the scans are made and put online, they can be duplicated and mirrored all around the world. At any time in the future someone (like Bowerbird) can grab any of these scans and OCR them using *their* nifty OCR engine with "sooper-dooper-intelligence". To me the question is not the quality of Brewster's OCR package -- I don't really give a rip, to be honest, because the scans can be re-OCR'd at any time -- the real question is the quality of the scans themselves. Will they be of sufficient resolution, contrast, cleanness, and linearity (no funny curvature) to make it easier to get high-quality OCR results? The complaints over OCR is a non-issue, and why Bowerbird even cares about the quality of Brewster's OCRing is beyond me. Ten years from now, if Bowerbird is correct, we'll have wonderful programs which will take the page scans, and spit out perfectly structured, 100% proofed structured digital texts. No human being will be needed to tweak the final result. As noted above, *I'd like to see this*, but I'm not holding my breath that we will see this in 10 years, or even 50 years. But let's get the scans done right, and ready for that time when all we have to do is push a button and we get perfect rice everytime. In the meanwhile, we'll have a nice pool of source material to use for the human-driven proofing endeavors such as Distributed Proofreaders. Jon Noring From sly at victoria.tc.ca Sat May 14 00:24:15 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Sat May 14 00:24:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] How to add Reviews for a PG E-Book ? In-Reply-To: <20050514003136.99E8D398D@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050514003136.99E8D398D@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: The existing "reviews" were added to the old promo.net PG catalog. Please note that they vary quite a lot. Some are actually review, some a synopsis, many are simply excerpts from the text (which seems to me a little redundant, given that the text itself is imemdiately accessible.) Just recently, the ability was added in again for catalog editors to add these reviews. Unless we can find anyone else who has a particular interest in processing these, I'd suggest sending them to catalog {at} pglaf.org Back in November 2000, when some volunteers were discussing these (called "blurbs" at the time) I tried writing a few and found it harder then I thought to do decently. If you are interested, I could find the little list I made of what points to cover in writing a concise review or blurb. Also, if you have significant information about a particular title, that you really want to make availible for the public at large, and you have enough material for a brief article, you might want to consider wikipedia as an appropriate place. Andrew On Fri, 13 May 2005, rvijay07 wrote: > > How to add Reviews for a PG E-Book ? This may seem simple but I am lost in this regard. Please assist. > > Thanks. > > Vijay > > > > > _______________________________________________ > No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. > Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From marcello at perathoner.de Sat May 14 02:18:24 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Sat May 14 02:18:46 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] How to add Reviews for a PG E-Book ? In-Reply-To: <20050514003136.99E8D398D@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050514003136.99E8D398D@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <4285C260.1060409@perathoner.de> rvijay07 wrote: > How to add Reviews for a PG E-Book ? This may seem simple but I am > lost in this regard. Please assist. Write them up in plain text format and mail them to Andrew Sly or me. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Sat May 14 02:19:08 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sat May 14 02:19:32 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] let's look at things a bit more closely Message-ID: <12e.5df23f85.2fb71c8c@aol.com> jon said: > Who says I've advocated "zero" errors? > It's a nice goal, but not possible without a lot of eyeballs, > some auto-processing, and some luck. > But we can get the error-rate down to very low levels. gee, jon, i thought that was _my_ position! i thought that was _everybody's_ position! you're the one complaining about _errors_! so let's stop talking in vague generalities and get down to some brass tacks, alright? i reference jim tinsley, who recently said he suspects the average number of errors in p.g. e-texts released these days is _50_. since jim is the person who fields all of the error-reports, and a major whitewasher too, i'd think his estimate is better than anyone's. if we figure that book has some 100-200 pages, that's one error every 2-4 pages. now of course, some of the errors are slight, barely noticeable. that number should be lower, but the judgment of the people who are actually _doing_ the e-texts is that they would rather move on to the next one than spend more time driving down the error-rate. they are volunteers, and set their own priorities. and given that the processes are fairly thorough at present, significantly lowering the error-rate would probably require a substantial investment of volunteer time and energy, so i'm not sure that it would prove its worth on a cost-benefit basis, even if the volunteers _were_ willing to give it. (of course, the value of better tools here should not be neglected. but i feel i've made that point.) so, the question is: how do we approach perfection? tell me, jon, do you have a solution for the problem? my answer is a system of "continuous proofreading", where we involve the end-users in the advancement by incorporating their efforts as valued contributors. and i've laid out an example showing how to do that: http://users.aol.com/bowerbird/proof_wiki.html this technological part was fairly easy. what is hard is stimulating end-users out of their apathy of inertia. what i'd do is release books initially only like this -- page-by-page within our error-reporting framework, with text on one side of the screen and scan on the other -- until the general public has found a few dozen errors (or until "enough" people certify each page error-free), and only _then_ release the e-text in the usual manner... if the only way people can read the e-text originally is on a website that actively encourages and _facilitates_ the reporting of errors, and where they're told explicitly that errors might still be present, so are to be expected, then i believe that they will join in the task with gusto... so i've actually designed a plan to move to perfect e-texts. meanwhile, you are soliciting for proofreader volunteers... > I am advocating DP's system (or a next-gen version of it), > for digitizing texts. It is proven, it works well, once again, it looks like we're advocating the same thing. the difference is that i've already built models, and you haven't. and i also suggest that we make tools available to people who, for one reason or another, prefer to digitize books independently, as individuals, because that system is "proven" and it "works" too. and the difference, here too, is i've programmed apps; you haven't... > It is proven, it works, and it can be improved. this makes me smile, jon, a big smile. because, you see, i too firmly believe that distributed proofreaders can be "improved". i even spent a lot of time over on their forums, telling them exactly how. but you know what? they didn't wanna hear it. not a single word of it. true enough, they have already incorporated _many_ of my suggestions, once i left them alone for a while, and i expect that they'll eventually incorporate all of 'em, but let me tell you, they didn't want to hear one word of it! and anyone can read their forums and see it for themselves. the cult is warm and friendly until they sniff a nonbeliever, and then they turn on that person with a very ugly vengeance. so i'm not too sure i'd recommend you share thoughts with 'em. still, jon, _i_ would be interested in what you would suggest. so do feel free to post your recommendations here, would you? and no offense, jon, but you really know _very_ little about d.p. so i'm kind of curious about how you think you could make _any_ improvements on their processes. but hey, i'm willing to listen... > It also has positive social implications for > getting the public involved with public domain texts, > and without having anyone commit much time to help. i agree. those are several of the beauties of distributed processes. that charles franks idea was pure genius. and people made it work... > I do intend to upload them at the Internet Archive as well. please do let all of us know where we can upload books we scan too! i've got the scans from mabie's "books and culture" book from google. > You can say what you want, but unless you "show the pudding", > no one's going to believe you. Your credibility is zero. thanks for your report on my credibility, jon. :+) i've said there are 2 errors (at least) in your text. anytime you want me to reveal 2, just send the $75. or once you find those 2 errors yourself, and correct them, i'll be happy to confirm to you that you did indeed find them. and until that time, whatever my current rate for the 2 errors, i will pay you _4_times_as_much_ if you "call my bluff" and i cannot point out 2 errors. that would be a full $300 right now. so feel free to "call me" any time; we'll see who gets the cash... on the other hand, if i know where 12 errors are, then even if you catch 10 of them, i've still got 2 i can use to cover my bet. so unless you're very confident of what you've got, be careful! (or am i just bluffing again? hard to know if you don't call me.) > That is an important factor in digitizing public domain texts > -- the process needs to be open and transparent to the public. not really. as long as an entity delivers text or scans or both without conditions and for absolutely no cost, i'd don't care if the processes they use are "open and transparent" or not... i would strongly prefer it if the scans were of a high quality -- which, by the way, doesn't have to mean high resolution -- and for the text to be completely error-free, but, you know, since i am not _paying_ for it, i can't really make demands... i also want the exact book done by the time i want to read it. but again, beggars can't be choosers, eh? so if i really want that specific book badly enough, and no one will do it for me, i guess i'll have to do it myself, right? that is the situation that more and more people will find themselves in, over time. they'll find somebody -- probably the brewster kahle crew -- scanned the book, but they will want it in text form instead; that's why we need to give them tools to do that conversion... if you check the posts i did make to the bookpeople listserve after the turn of this year, you'll see i predicted exactly this; referencing "the avalanche of scanned books available soon"... > Yes, and I noted that in my prior reply > (refering to what you probably did), > which you seemed to have missed. i just confirmed that you were right about that, and that yes, indeed, i had done o.c.r. on your scans, and retained linebreaks. i wouldn't have bothered to confirm that, except that you seemed to miss the importance of the fact that this created an independent work-product, which is precisely what serves to best check for differences. you also showed you don't grasp the significance of this when you implied that d.p. would work on your text-file, rather than starting from scratch with some fresh o.c.r. > I'm not thinking of myself on this one. > What do you plan to do with the $75 anyway? > Donate it to PG? Or buy a little Happiness? i would put it into a savings account to purchase that version of abbyy finereader that works on older books... :+) > Anyone who volunteers will check out what's there > and decide for themselves whether they want to help out or not. > It's only abuse when something is unknowingly forced on someone. um, no, i'm just telling you why you will not get many volunteers to do that job for you. do you really expect people to do proofing the way you described? and any volunteers that you _might_ get won't last for long after that first book, because your processes waste their time and energy, rather than show _respect_ for it... and when i offered to help you out by adapting my tool for you? well, i still haven't heard your reaction to that offer... > You seem to imply that people are basically stupid > and easily duped, except you of course. no, it's precisely because people are _not_ "basically stupid" _or_ "easily duped" that they won't let you waste their time. > Maybe that's not your intent, but > words sometimes can be misconstrued. and sometimes intentionally misconstrued, to misrepresent... > Except for the lack of consistent line-breaks, > which would make proofing easier, um, it makes it _significantly_ easier. probably an order of magnitude or so... and there are other benefits to retaining the line-breaks as well. > what we have is actually not that primitive based on how > many proofers/copyeditors already work. DP is better, of course. oh please. do you really think proofers and copyeditors consistently print out all the stuff they are proofing? only the ancient ones and the stupid ones. the smart ones are actively using the machine to help them do their jobs. no wonder you think this task is difficult. you have no clue. you're going about it in a wrongheaded way, so it _is_ hard. > I'm aware of how clean it is since I had a few pages > (but not the whole book) run through abbyy 7. put your o.c.r. output up, and we'll let people judge for themselves. if you put up half of the pages, i'll give you the other half to put up. it might be interesting to see if there are any differences based on any different settings we might have used on some of the features... > I'm aware of how clean it is since I had a few pages > (but not the whole book) run through abbyy 7. > It still contains numerous errors i never said abbyy was perfect. my rough memory is that it averaged 1-2 errors per page, but that a simple spell-check would pinpoint most of them... of course, a simple spellcheck is _not_ the best tool in my chest... > a significant number of which > cannot be found/properly-auto-corrected > by post-processing tools. and that's where you're wrong. and i'll document the figures at some point down the line... also, when i release my tool, sometime at the end of spring, you will see how wrong you are... correcting this text to high accuracy -- again, 1 error every 10-20 pages -- should take a moderately-skilled user roughly 4 hours, tops. compare that to how long it took you to do the scanning? which reminds me: how about a tally of precisely how many hours have now gone into the making of your "my antonia" book? breaking it down by each specific task would be tremendously enlightening to a lot of people. and i think people will be downright amazed that your cost-per-book (for this one book!) is so frighteningly large, well beyond the pale of what most of us would consider reasonable, even for what "could" be considered a prototype. > This worship of abbyy 7 by you is perplexing. of course, you have no experience with it, do you? i listen to people who do lots and lots of scanning. to me, the amazing thing is that you want to persist in your belief that this job is _difficult_, but then you are so resistant to factors that make it _easy_. it's almost as if you _want_ to believe that it's hard. > It is very, very good, that's a very, very good description... > but it is *not perfect* ...but it's not a perfect description. i would say abbyy v7 is _first-rate_. and then, when it's combined with the right scanner -- again, for your info, the plustek opticbook3600 -- and the scans are subjected to intelligent clean-up, that combination can give you _excellent_. output... _then_, with the right post-o.c.r. tools, a person can create _superior_ results. (which i would define operationally as 1 error or less for every 20-40 pages.) > --it's just an imperfect tool i again notice insistence that this tool is "imperfect". of course it's not perfect, nothing ever is, but it's still a _lot_ less imperfect than you lead people to believe... > --it's just an imperfect tool > to be used as part of an overall process. and you have very little idea what that overall process should look like. > Possibly. I made the decision back in Jan./Feb. to meet a deadline. d.p. could have met your deadline a whole lot faster than you did. once the book got in their queue, anyway. sometimes that can take a while. which is why, as i mentioned above, many people will increasingly find it's faster just to do a book themselves... > The markup is mundane, but then most markup for most books > is pretty mundane. Mundane is not the issue. if that was true, you would have marked up my test-suite a long time ago. but that was a challenge that you ignored... > This document is being used as part of a bigger project > dealing with the use of texts, including interpublication linking, > community text annotation, blogs/vlogs, etc. but you have none of that on your site. > You don't see that because that is not being shown > on the particular entry point to the demo page. i see, so it's a "proof of concept" for someone else, not for us. > There's a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff going on elsewhere. perhaps you're selling some new clothes to the emperor? :+) > Look again at the "mundane" markup. > There's a little more there than meets the eye. i know exactly what's there, and why it's there. it's still mundane. i suggest you go and look at the markup manual they've developed over at d.p. > This demo project is just a small part of > a much bigger non-profit project, which > I've actually revealed a lot about if you know how to > read between the lines of my many prior messages on this yes, i know how to read between your lines very well, jon. > At this time I don't want to go into the full details > of what we are doing since that would be premature. so much for the "open" part of this "open project", eh? > That's why your playing games with "My Antonia" > errata submission is probably seen by most here > as self-centered and vindictive rather than helpful to > the public and the goals of digitizing public domain texts. that's the way you'd like to spin it, i'm quite sure. and -- as you constantly like to remind everyone, _you_ believe perception is as important as reality. so you're trying to create the _perception_ that i am "self-centered and vindictive". good luck. _i_ think people realize that i won't be your pawn. meanwhile, i'm not the one writing business plans. > Laugh, pay me $100 and I'll show them to you. will you pay me $400 if they aren't really "new ideas"? :+) > it would have been *totally wrong* for me to even > ask them to meet a time deadline of *mine* again, you show you have no knowledge of the d.p. processes. a first-time producer gets to move to the head of the queue. you sacrificed the book, did the scans, and were willing to post-process the book. all you needed was the proofreading, and that would have been done in a matter of a couple hours. that's not "taking advantage" of d.p. that's why they're there. that's what pourlean has been trying to tell you, repeatedly... > The focus now is to finish the proofing of "My Antonia" you have proofed it to within an inch or two of its life, jon. the fact that you still don't consider it "finished" leads me to believe that you really _do_ advocate zero errors. and that leads us back to where we started this post, right? it's one more trip i've made on the noring merry-go-round. you have no sense of hitting the point of diminishing returns. > Since you already submitted a few errata, > your name has already been added to > the list of proofers at the "My Antonia" web site at > http://www.openreader.org/myantonia/ . please remove it. i don't wish to be associated with the page. > You've stated many times that you believe your > "system" will *soon* (if not now) make D.P. unnecessary. no. that's a misrepresentation of my position. d.p. will always be a cool thing for people who want to give only a small amount of time in support of e-texts. it will always be a cool thing for the people who want to embed themselves in a community of like-minded others. it will always be a cool thing for books that need some specialized treatment -- math, tables, greek, and so on. it will always be a cool thing in the demonstration of how distributed processes can bring about great results. it will always be a cool thing because it's proving ground for tools that seek to facilitate the digitization of books. d.p. will always be a cool thing for any number of reasons... if we give individual people powerful tools that help them digitize books on their own, then it will not be necessary for them to work through d.p. if they choose not to do that. but that doesn't make d.p. itself "unnecessary". with a thousand or more active proofers, and a total roster that's no approaching 20,000, d.p. will be around a long time. they will also be a big creator of e-texts, and i salute them... > Human proofers/final-assemblers will always be needed > to do final proofing, cleanup and markup > (or structuring if not working in XML) of digital texts, > at least for the next couple decades post-o.c.r. tools need human beings to operate them intelligently. what i've said is that for a simple book -- like "my antonia" -- a moderately-skilled person who has the kind of tool i'll release in 8 weeks or so can do the post-o.c.r. processing in one evening. 8 weeks is much sooner than "the next couple decades". it's like, you know, the next couple of _months_... :+) this tool will _not_ do the type of markup you think is necessary. part of what i will be proving -- with some excellent pudding -- over the course of the next 6 months, is that you are wrong, jon, when you maintain that your type of markup is necessary. it's not. > to make them high-quality, fully usable, repurposeable texts. my e-books will be high-quality, fully usable, and "repurposeable" (what does that mean, anyway?) exemplars, fully capable of the benefits that you promise (but will have a hard time delivering), and they will do so without any of your horrendous markup costs. so i'd suggest you make that sale to the emperor real soon now. in a short few months, you will never be able to close the deal... > (hmmm, how do *you* have access to abbyy 7? um, i think i'll decline to tell you, let you use that as a way to demonstrate your i.q. > Does it run on your legacy Mac? not v7, nope. not even close. i went to a computer rental place to do the o.c.r. and at just $3/hour, it wasn't too expensive either; it's cheap 'cause it caters to kids playing online games, meaning it has big screens, fast machines, and fat pipes. so i'm lucky i live here in l.a., where the kids are depraved; you might not be so lucky in utah, where the kids are chaste. anyway, i'll make my money back when you cough up the $75... :+) or maybe i'll have to eat my investment if somebody else reports my errors to you first. that's a danger you run when you decide to hold out. :+) > How do you afford it? i don't mind paying a few bucks to know what i'm talking about. it saves me from saying some stupid things. you should try it... > But why not make public your abbyy 7 raw text? first of all, multiple copies of the same product don't help much. you need independent products to cross-check against each other. which means that you should go and do the o.c.r. yourself, jon. second -- and more important -- why should i? you keep thinking i am gonna donate my time, money, and energy to help you build up material you can use in your "business plans", and to attack the "trustworthiness" of project gutenberg e-texts. as usual, you're wrong. > Now you may say we've arrived with current OCR, > so his test suite is useless. He is very aware of abbyy 7 > yet he wants to assemble the "test suite". > What does he know about OCR that you don't? well, i'm not sure. why doesn't brewster tell us himself? i'm also curious about why his crew isn't using abbyy v7, most especially that version geared towards older books. why use inferior technology? in the long run, it's _not_ cheaper. unless you don't consider the true costs of correcting the errors. maybe it is a big mistake to lead brewster to believe that he can get the errors corrected by distributed proofreaders for nothing. -bowerbird From rvijay07 at myway.com Sat May 14 02:38:48 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sat May 14 02:39:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] HandHeld & E-Books Message-ID: <20050514093848.968EC5C405@mprdmxin.myway.com> Thanks for the helpful response. What kind of a power supply does the RocketBook reader use and how long does it last ? Also for how long one has to be a member of the 2 books per month deal to get the rocket reader ? Here is another related question. Are these two books a month actially E-books ? Can one resell E-Books under copyright on ebay etc., like regular books ? Thanks. Vijay --- On Fri 05/13, Chuck MATTSEN < mattsen@arvig.net > wrote: From: Chuck MATTSEN [mailto: mattsen@arvig.net] To: rvijay07@myway.com, gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:31:01 -0500 Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] HandHeld & E-Books On Fri, 13 May 2005 20:29:58 -0400 (EDT)
"rvijay07" typed:

> How convenient are handhelds to read E-books ? Specially in terms of
> eye strain and power lasting etc., ?
>
> Reading E-Books from a desktop is strainful, specially if one is at
> the PC at work all day.

FWIW, I have e-books on the PC, the Palm Tungsten E PDA and the
RocketBook e-book reader. I have a lot of eye strain with both the PC
and the PDA, but I absolutely /love/ reading on the RocketBook reader.
Very easy on the eyes, at least for me, and a convenient size. In
fact, I also got it free by joining one of those 2-books-per-month for
$19.95 deals where they throw the reader in gratis. Turned out to be a
good deal for me, but of course YMMV. (I added a $20 256MB SmartCard
and I can't imagine wanting/needing more storage, really.)

--
Chuck MATTSEN / mattsen at arvig dot net / Mahnomen, MN, USA
MT Lookup: http://eot.com/~mattsen/mtsearch.htm
Mandriva Linux release 2006.0 (Cooker) for i586
kernel 2.6.11-8mdk-i686-up-4GB / RLU #346519

Random Thought/Quote For This Message:
Society prepares the crime; the criminal commits it.
_______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From geoff.horton at gmail.com Sat May 14 03:32:17 2005 From: geoff.horton at gmail.com (Geoff Horton) Date: Sat May 14 03:32:53 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Examples of the difficulty of auto-discernment of document structure/semantics (was Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg) In-Reply-To: <1174874336.20050513213551@noring.name> References: <75.454710f0.2fb6af2f@aol.com> <1174874336.20050513213551@noring.name> Message-ID: <94e5f59605051403327c6b6037@mail.gmail.com> FWIW, I am not envisioning coming up with anything that can replace human eyeballs. As has been mentioned by others (probably Jon, but I'm too lazy to go back and find out), I'm looking for tools to help those eyeballs work better. Geoff From mattsen at arvig.net Sat May 14 03:33:11 2005 From: mattsen at arvig.net (Chuck MATTSEN) Date: Sat May 14 03:33:40 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: HandHeld & E-Books In-Reply-To: <20050514093848.968EC5C405@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050514093848.968EC5C405@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <20050514053311.1af62b93@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 14 May 2005 05:38:48 -0400 (EDT) "rvijay07" typed: > Thanks for the helpful response. What kind of a power supply does the > RocketBook reader use and how long does it last ? Also for how long > one has to be a member of the 2 books per month deal to get the > rocket reader ? > > Here is another related question. Are these two books a month > actially E-books ? Can one resell E-Books under copyright on ebay > etc., like regular books ? It's a rechargeable battery system w/adapter included; roughly 8 hours of reading per charge. The deal I took advantage of was through Filament, which is one of the many faces of Fictionwise/eBookwise and a few other incarnations. There may be better bargains out there with respect to getting the RocketBook reader on its own, but I knew that a number of titles I wanted were available through the Filament deal anyway, so I went with it. It's a 12-month commitment for the 2-books-per-month scheme. Works for me -- YMMV. It's www.filamentbooks.com for the 12-month deal, or www.ebookwise.com has the reader for $129 with a $30 credit toward books (which may be a better deal for some folks). Anyway, I'm not specifically recommending either; just mentioning two places I know of ... I'm sure there are others. Of course, the two books are e-books, though your selection may be somewhat limited in comparison to the broader library of e-books available. Beyond the two I get per month, the vast majority of what I've been reading and collecting have either been PG editions or what the Baen sci-fi library makes available, though I've scoured a number of the other sites for titles here and there. As someone mentioned (Greg?), the software to do some of the conversions from other formats to the RocketBook format is for Windows, which pains me no end, since I'd rather reside in GNU/Linux all the time, but I do still have a dual-boot setup so that works for me for now. The transferability of any of the e-Books depends upon their licensing, of course ... I don't profess to be up on the legalities of resale in any venue. -- Chuck MATTSEN / mattsen at arvig dot net / Mahnomen, MN, USA MT Lookup: http://eot.com/~mattsen/mtsearch.htm Mandriva Linux release 2006.0 (Cooker) for i586 kernel 2.6.11-8mdk-i686-up-4GB / RLU #346519 Random Thought/Quote For This Message: Well-timed silence hath more eloquence than speech. -- Martin Fraquhar Tupper From rvijay07 at myway.com Sat May 14 04:06:50 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sat May 14 04:07:19 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: HandHeld & E-Books Message-ID: <20050514110650.B2AB6396F@mprdmxin.myway.com> Great post. Thanks for sharing. I am a Linux user as well. No windows. Hence, this seems to be a great limitation for products like the rocketreader. Hope they comeup with alternative solutions in the future. Vijay --- On Sat 05/14, Chuck MATTSEN < mattsen@arvig.net > wrote: From: Chuck MATTSEN [mailto: mattsen@arvig.net] To: rvijay07@myway.com, gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 05:33:11 -0500 Subject: Re: HandHeld & E-Books On Sat, 14 May 2005 05:38:48 -0400 (EDT)
"rvijay07" typed:

> Thanks for the helpful response. What kind of a power supply does the
> RocketBook reader use and how long does it last ? Also for how long
> one has to be a member of the 2 books per month deal to get the
> rocket reader ?
>
> Here is another related question. Are these two books a month
> actially E-books ? Can one resell E-Books under copyright on ebay
> etc., like regular books ?

It's a rechargeable battery system w/adapter included; roughly 8 hours
of reading per charge.

The deal I took advantage of was through Filament, which is one of the
many faces of Fictionwise/eBookwise and a few other incarnations.
There may be better bargains out there with respect to getting the
RocketBook reader on its own, but I knew that a number of titles I
wanted were available through the Filament deal anyway, so I went with
it. It's a 12-month commitment for the 2-books-per-month scheme.
Works for me -- YMMV. It's www.filamentbooks.com for the 12-month
deal, or www.ebookwise.com has the reader for $129 with a $30 credit
toward books (which may be a better deal for some folks). Anyway, I'm
not specifically recommending either; just mentioning two places I know
of ... I'm sure there are others.

Of course, the two books are e-books, though your selection may be
somewhat limited in comparison to the broader library of e-books
available. Beyond the two I get per month, the vast majority of what
I've been reading and collecting have either been PG editions or what
the Baen sci-fi library makes available, though I've scoured a number
of the other sites for titles here and there.

As someone mentioned (Greg?), the software to do some of the
conversions from other formats to the RocketBook format is for Windows,
which pains me no end, since I'd rather reside in GNU/Linux all the
time, but I do still have a dual-boot setup so that works for me for
now.

The transferability of any of the e-Books depends upon their licensing,
of course ... I don't profess to be up on the legalities of resale in
any venue.

--
Chuck MATTSEN / mattsen at arvig dot net / Mahnomen, MN, USA
MT Lookup: http://eot.com/~mattsen/mtsearch.htm
Mandriva Linux release 2006.0 (Cooker) for i586
kernel 2.6.11-8mdk-i686-up-4GB / RLU #346519

Random Thought/Quote For This Message:
Well-timed silence hath more eloquence than speech.
-- Martin Fraquhar Tupper
_______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From geoff.horton at gmail.com Sat May 14 05:29:12 2005 From: geoff.horton at gmail.com (Geoff Horton) Date: Sat May 14 05:29:17 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: HandHeld & E-Books In-Reply-To: <20050514110650.B2AB6396F@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050514110650.B2AB6396F@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <94e5f59605051405294a54cc23@mail.gmail.com> Can the conversion software be made to run under WINE? Geoff From mattsen at arvig.net Sat May 14 05:32:57 2005 From: mattsen at arvig.net (Chuck MATTSEN) Date: Sat May 14 05:33:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: HandHeld & E-Books In-Reply-To: <94e5f59605051405294a54cc23@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050514110650.B2AB6396F@mprdmxin.myway.com> <94e5f59605051405294a54cc23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050514073257.58be3d57@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 14 May 2005 08:29:12 -0400 Geoff Horton typed: > Can the conversion software be made to run under WINE? Haven't tried it myself (frankly, I've not had much luck with running Windows apps under Wine). -- Chuck MATTSEN / mattsen at arvig dot net / Mahnomen, MN, USA MT Lookup: http://eot.com/~mattsen/mtsearch.htm Mandriva Linux release 2006.0 (Cooker) for i586 kernel 2.6.11-8mdk-i686-up-4GB / RLU #346519 Random Thought/Quote For This Message: Some people think they are worth a lot of money just because they have it. - -Fannie Hurst, writer [1889-1968] From jon_niehof at yahoo.com Sat May 14 06:02:01 2005 From: jon_niehof at yahoo.com (Jon Niehof) Date: Sat May 14 06:02:06 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: HandHeld & E-Books In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050514130201.95483.qmail@web41628.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck MATTSEN wrote: > The transferability of any of the e-Books depends upon their > licensing, of course ... I don't profess to be up on the > legalities of resale in any venue. In the US, doctrine of first sale has yet to be overturned, despite many attempts to do so and many licenses that ignore it. Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From bruce at zuhause.org Sat May 14 07:25:04 2005 From: bruce at zuhause.org (Bruce Albrecht) Date: Sat May 14 07:25:12 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Google Print In-Reply-To: <20050514130201.95483.qmail@web41628.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050514130201.95483.qmail@web41628.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <17030.2624.726788.211747@celery.zuhause.org> Now that Google has an arrangement to scan materials from several libraries, they should be getting a large number of public domain texts in their system. There's been at least one project in DP based on a Google Print source, so we know that their images are potentially good enough for our OCR. I have been looking for books in their system that can be used by DP without any success. Therefore, I encourage everybody to go to Google Print and ask them for three search filters: Search for "by this author only" Search for "by this title only" Search for "this work is public domain" For the "public domain" entry, please give the rationale that you tried to look up your favorite long dead author (died prior to 1922), and could only find entries that were listed as copyrighted material only because the publisher of the book slapped on an introduction sometime in the last 30 years, and this prevented you from reading the book itself, which is in the public domain. The following is the URL for making suggestions to Google about the Google Print service: http://services.google.com/inquiry/print_feedback From matthew at mc.clintock.com Sat May 14 07:48:28 2005 From: matthew at mc.clintock.com (Matthew McClintock) Date: Sat May 14 07:48:37 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: HandHeld & E-Books In-Reply-To: <20050514053311.1af62b93@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050514093848.968EC5C405@mprdmxin.myway.com> <20050514053311.1af62b93@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On May 14, 2005, at 5:33 AM, Chuck MATTSEN wrote: > As someone mentioned (Greg?), the software to do some of the > conversions from other formats to the RocketBook format is for > Windows, > which pains me no end, since I'd rather reside in GNU/Linux all the > time, but I do still have a dual-boot setup so that works for me for > now. If the eBookwise-1150 really can read the RocketBook format as their website states ( http://www.ebookwise.com/servlet/mw? t=help_uploadcontent.htm&si=43 ) then you can use rbmake ( http:// rbmake.sourceforge.net/ ) on linux. My site, manybooks.net, uses it to provide Project Gutenberg texts in RB format, and folks _seem_ to be able to read them. Unfortunately I don't have an eBookwise-1150 to test it out. Anyone care to try it and let me know how it works for them? -Matt -- http://mc.clintock.com http://manybooks.net -- From Bowerbird at aol.com Sat May 14 08:59:04 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sat May 14 08:59:18 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: HandHeld & E-Books Message-ID: <7f.5e303462.2fb77a48@aol.com> chuck said: > Unfortunately I don't have an eBookwise-1150 to test it out. > Anyone care to try it and let me know how it works for them? actually, considering all that chuck has done for rocketbookers, perhaps y'all should chip in together and buy him a test machine. -bowerbird From Bowerbird at aol.com Sat May 14 09:29:08 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sat May 14 09:29:17 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Examples of the difficulty of auto-discernment of document structure/semantics (was Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg) Message-ID: <1a0.33d1f11a.2fb78154@aol.com> geoff said: > FWIW, I am not envisioning coming up with > anything that can replace human eyeballs. nobody is. don't be confused by noring's straw-man. > As has been mentioned by others (probably Jon, > but I'm too lazy to go back and find out), I'm > looking for tools to help those eyeballs work better. right. by, for instance, directing those eyeballs to the places where they _need_ to focus, and by _not_ directing their attention to the places where they _don't_ need to focus (false alarms). that's patently obvious to anyone with a brain. but the thing about straw-men is _no_brain_! of course, eyeballs aren't the only things that must do work in this progress. fingers do too, in the summoning of files, correcting of text, and subsequent saving of files. all that work is rather inconsequential if you're doing it for a single file. but if you're doing it for 15,000? then you need tools that do that automatically. otherwise, your error-correction workflow becomes subject to errors itself, as well as something worse -- administrator burnout. -bowerbird p.s. got schiz on the spelling of your name, eh? From hacker at gnu-designs.com Sat May 14 09:53:54 2005 From: hacker at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Sat May 14 09:59:32 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: HandHeld & E-Books In-Reply-To: <94e5f59605051405294a54cc23@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050514110650.B2AB6396F@mprdmxin.myway.com> <94e5f59605051405294a54cc23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Can the conversion software be made to run under WINE? Take a look at Plucker[1] for reading offline ebooks. We've been using it since 1998 for the same thing (as well as web content, HOWTO documents, technical manuals, converted pdf files, rss feeds and more). Our userbase spans hundreds of thousands of users in all corners of the globe (yes, literally). The content conversion tools run under Linux, OSX, Windows and other platforms and can be found in Python, C++, Java, and Perl flavors. The various handheld-side readers run on PalmOS, PocketPC and on Linux-based PDAs. There are commandline and GUI conversion programs to convert the content to Plucker format which run under all of the OS' mentioned, as well as an "email-only" interface called "Pler" that can convert the content for those who lack the platform necessary to convert the content. The viewer itself (the component on the handheld device) is currently translated to 16 different languages (ca, cs, da, de, en, es, fo, fr, it, ja, no, pl, ru, th, tr, zh_CN) to support many non-English users. Plucker is also the only format out there (out of the 17 different handheld reader formats currently available) that is 100% openly documented[2] that supports rich formatting found in web content (images, tags, tables, stylesheets, colors, etc.). The other free formats support compression and text, and maybe images, but nothing close to what we support. We also support anti-alias fonts for easier reading on tired eyes, which you can see some samples of here: http://code.plkr.org/aa/ Its also Free Software, covered by the GNU GPL, which means you can rebrand it and sell it if you wish (obviously in compliance with the license, of course). There are dozens of commercial companies who are using Plucker (viewer, format and distiller components, or a combination of all three) in their core product suites now, including schools, healthcare and educational institutions. Take a look at some custom works converted to Plucker format: http://www.plkr.org/samples http://code.plkr.org/ [1] http://www.plkr.org [2] http://cvs.plkr.org/index.cgi/*checkout*/docs/DBFormat.html David A. Desrosiers desrod@gnu-designs.com http://gnu-designs.com From alex at awstudios.net Sat May 14 12:16:12 2005 From: alex at awstudios.net (Alex Wilson) Date: Sat May 14 12:16:24 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] HandHeld & E-Books In-Reply-To: <20050514002958.ACCB0398D@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: On 5/13/05 8:29 PM, "rvijay07" wrote: > How convenient are handhelds to read E-books ? Specially in terms of eye > strain and power lasting etc., ? They're not bad as far as eye strain. Better than a CRT monitor, maybe not as good as a laptop LCC. Of course not as good on the eyes as a paper book, but I have no complaints about my Palm Tungsten T. For convenience sake I've always got a small library with me with public domain texts, Fictionwise and Peanut Press (or whatever they're calling themselves/who bought them out most recently) purchases, a searchable dictionary (MSDict), and some of my own work. I mostly use Palm Reader (and drop book for converting), and AvantGo, which came with my handheld, for Word and Excel documents. You can adjust the font size in both I believe, which would reduce eyestrain for anyone who has problem with smaller type. And--it used to be the case anyway--with Palm Reader you can purchase a $20 "pro" version with extra font choices, and some of them you might find easy on the mind. Palm devices hold a charge for a looong time. Just make sure you don't have any bluetooth or wireless card turned on cuz that's a big power drain. I imagine some of the newfangled stuff they put in Palms these days (camera, etc) would also be a big power drain. But I'm reading on the bus, waiting in line, waiting for others on shopping days, waiting to pick people up for the airport, probably half an hour a day easily and if I forget to charge the thing it will still have over half a charge after a week. On trips shorter than a week, where there's usually a lot of waiting around and reading, I usually don't even bother bringing the charger. My current model is about two years old, I believe, and the battery still holds a significant charge. Alex. -- http://www.telltaleweekly.org - Funding a Free Audiobook Library http://www.alexwilson.com - Alex Wilson Studios LLC From collin at xs4all.nl Sat May 14 13:16:47 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Sat May 14 13:04:12 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] HandHeld & E-Books In-Reply-To: References: <20050514002958.ACCB0398D@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <428678CF.15477.3BE523@localhost> On 14 May 2005, at 15:16, Alex Wilson wrote: > On 5/13/05 8:29 PM, "rvijay07" wrote: > > > How convenient are handhelds to read E-books ? Specially in terms of > > eye strain and power lasting etc., ? > > They're not bad as far as eye strain. Better than a CRT monitor, maybe > not as good as a laptop LCC. Of course not as good on the eyes as a > paper book, What does that mean, "eye strain"? How are CRTs "bad" for the eyes, and print books "good"? What is the medical term for the condition known as "eye strain"? What will happen if you have too much "eye strain"? As far as I know, "eye strain" may as well be all old wives tales. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From hacker at gnu-designs.com Sat May 14 13:10:30 2005 From: hacker at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Sat May 14 13:11:35 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] HandHeld & E-Books In-Reply-To: <428678CF.15477.3BE523@localhost> References: <20050514002958.ACCB0398D@mprdmxin.myway.com> <428678CF.15477.3BE523@localhost> Message-ID: > What does that mean, "eye strain"? How are CRTs "bad" for the eyes, > and print books "good"? What is the medical term for the condition > known as "eye strain"? What will happen if you have too much "eye > strain"? Monitors are 75-100dpi, typically.. even printed documents are much higher dpi (300dpi at the low-end). What we read on paper is significantly-higher dpi than the monitor you read that text on. David A. Desrosiers desrod@gnu-designs.com http://gnu-designs.com From Bowerbird at aol.com Sat May 14 13:23:43 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sat May 14 13:23:55 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: eye strain Message-ID: <1ee.3bc0bea9.2fb7b84f@aol.com> branko said: > What does that mean, "eye strain"? don't worry about it. it's one of those old-people things... ;+) -bowerbird From grythumn at gmail.com Sat May 14 14:24:57 2005 From: grythumn at gmail.com (Robert Cicconetti) Date: Sat May 14 14:25:08 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] HandHeld & E-Books In-Reply-To: References: <20050514002958.ACCB0398D@mprdmxin.myway.com> <428678CF.15477.3BE523@localhost> Message-ID: <15cfa2a505051414247b64bc11@mail.gmail.com> On 5/14/05, David A. Desrosiers wrote: > Monitors are 75-100dpi, typically.. even printed documents are > much higher dpi (300dpi at the low-end). What we read on paper is > significantly-higher dpi than the monitor you read that text on. If that is the criteria, then most Palms are definately subpar; they average around 160x160 and 2"x2".. around 80 dpi. Also, the small resolution means very few characters per line. The higher-end Palms and WinCE devices have higher resolution, but rarely have larger screens. Ebook readers tend to have much larger screens. Some people have trouble with refresh rates.. anything over ~72 is good for me, but 60 hz (on a CRT) gives me a headache very quickly. Most LCDs (when not displaying grayscale) exhibit very little flicker. The eInk devices do not require refreshing the display constantly, but they are slow when updating the display. R C From collin at xs4all.nl Sat May 14 14:53:55 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Sat May 14 14:41:17 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] HandHeld & E-Books In-Reply-To: References: <428678CF.15477.3BE523@localhost> Message-ID: <42868F93.25373.94D4E2@localhost> On 14 May 2005, at 16:10, David A. Desrosiers wrote: > > What does that mean, "eye strain"? How are CRTs "bad" for the eyes, > > and print books "good"? What is the medical term for the condition > > known as "eye strain"? What will happen if you have too much "eye > > strain"? > > Monitors are 75-100dpi, typically.. even printed documents are > much higher dpi (300dpi at the low-end). What we read on paper is > significantly-higher dpi than the monitor you read that text on. I am sorry, I am trying hard to understand, but I don't see how this is an answer to my question. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From Bowerbird at aol.com Sat May 14 14:53:33 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sat May 14 14:53:47 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: rare, which drives the price up Message-ID: <128.5cd8c42d.2fb7cd5d@aol.com> jon noring said: > Anyway, the proofers did find a couple errors > (and as I noted the text has not been sufficiently proofed yet), and when will "sufficiency" be reached? :+) (sorry, folks, this post of jon's is so juicy, i have to respond twice!) > Anyway, the proofers did find a couple errors > (and as I noted the text has not been sufficiently proofed yet), > which have been corrected in the current online text. > I don't know if they corrected the errors you found as i told you before, no, you still haven't gotten all the errors. you might have found 2. great! but there are still 2 more. :+) > I don't know if they corrected the errors you found > but I don't really care. oh, i think you care _very_much_ about finding every last one. that's why you are still soliciting for even more proofreaders... > And of course, I won't tell you here > exactly what errors the proofers found it's trivial to find the changes you made. > but for $100 I'll be happy to tell you and for $100, i will spell "trivial" for you. :+) > (but I'll be nice and give you a clue: "didn't" and "liked".) > Otherwise you can download the XHTML document again > and run a 'diff' on it -- happy hunting! "hunting"? there's no need to go "hunting". just drop two files on the comparison app. and "diff"? please. what a clumsy-ass tool. in a case like this, with only a couple changes, that will not matter much. but as a programmer, i've written several apps that present the output in a way that's much friendlier than that of "diff" -- not to mention a whole heckuva lot smarter -- absolutely necessary if the comparison gets sticky. (e.g., ok, already, i don't need to see the differences that were created by the change to british spellings.) > You can say what you want, but unless you "show the pudding", > no one's going to believe you. Your credibility is zero. and the flack you're desperately throwing up is trivial to defeat. aside from the two changes that you so generously "hinted" about, i see you also added the character entity for the trademark symbol. gotta get that trademark on "trusted edition", don't you? after all, you want people to be sure which e-texts are "trustworthy", right? as for one correction made, from "liked" to "like", well, that error occurred on page 363, did it not? indeed, it is the very top line on page 363, right? now if you look at the scan i used for my proofing demo, at > http://users.aol.com/bowerbird/proof_wiki.html which i put up a few months back, you'll see i used page 363! what a surprise! but maybe that was just, like, a very rare coincidence, eh?, that the very page on which there is one of the few errors remaining would be the same page -- deep into the book -- that i would use in my public demo of a proofing interface? yeah, maybe it was, jon, maybe it was. or maybe i was merely toying with you. you won't know unless you "call my bluff" on those 2 errors that i say are still in your text, will you? there's a $300 payoff in it for you if i am bluffing, as opposed to a mere $75 payoff for me if i'm not... it's pretty hard to resist a 4-to-1 differential, isn't it? (and for your $75, you'll finally have error-free text, which -- despite your serious efforts -- has eluded you for months. of course, project gutenberg will have the exact same text.) but act fast! this is a limited-time offer! or before you know it, the price of the next-to-last error might jump to $40, and the price of the last one up to $60, for a grand total for the pair of $100. you just never know. after all, these errors are _rare_. that drives the price up... -bowerbird p.s. by the way, a u.r.l. for that d.p. forum i said you should see is: > http://www.pgdp.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=128023#128023 (this forum is for d.p. members only, which jon is, but anybody else can visit as well, just by registering as a member first; that's free. heck, stick around and proof a couple pages, and see if you like it...) From hacker at gnu-designs.com Sat May 14 15:19:19 2005 From: hacker at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Sat May 14 15:19:55 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] HandHeld & E-Books In-Reply-To: <42868F93.25373.94D4E2@localhost> References: <428678CF.15477.3BE523@localhost> <42868F93.25373.94D4E2@localhost> Message-ID: > I am sorry, I am trying hard to understand, but I don't see how this > is an answer to my question. Between dpi and refresh rates, the human eye has to constantly "refocus" and uses a lot more muscles than with other configurations, hence leading to "eye-strain". David A. Desrosiers desrod@gnu-designs.com http://gnu-designs.com From collin at xs4all.nl Sat May 14 16:32:45 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Sat May 14 16:20:07 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] HandHeld & E-Books In-Reply-To: References: <42868F93.25373.94D4E2@localhost> Message-ID: <4286A6BD.14708.EF55C4@localhost> On 14 May 2005, at 18:19, David A. Desrosiers wrote: > > I am sorry, I am trying hard to understand, but I don't see how this > > is an answer to my question. > > Between dpi and refresh rates, the human eye has to constantly > "refocus" and uses a lot more muscles than with other configurations, > hence leading to "eye-strain". Refresh rate, perhaps, but why DPI? -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From rvijay07 at myway.com Sat May 14 17:31:23 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sat May 14 17:31:39 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] An Error, eye strain, solution. Message-ID: <20050515003123.23F295C5C2@mprdmxin.myway.com> I have beenr eading the E-Books as such in my browser last week. The fonts were a little extra small. Hence, after three days I endedup with red, watery and irritated eyes. Maybe I must read the E-Books by opening them in Open Office with larger fonts. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From traverso at dm.unipi.it Sat May 14 17:38:33 2005 From: traverso at dm.unipi.it (Carlo Traverso) Date: Sat May 14 17:38:49 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] An Error, eye strain, solution. In-Reply-To: <20050515003123.23F295C5C2@mprdmxin.myway.com> (rvijay07@myway.com) References: <20050515003123.23F295C5C2@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <200505150038.j4F0cXI28340@pico.dm.unipi.it> >>>>> "rvijay07" == rvijay07 writes: rvijay07> I have beenr eading the E-Books as such in my browser rvijay07> last week. The fonts were a little extra small. Hence, rvijay07> after three days I endedup with red, watery and rvijay07> irritated eyes. Maybe I must read the E-Books by opening rvijay07> them in Open Office with larger fonts. rvijay07> Vijay You don't need to leave the browser to enlarge the fonts; browsers usually support enlarging the font (control+ in mozilla). Carlo From hacker at gnu-designs.com Sat May 14 17:45:11 2005 From: hacker at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Sat May 14 17:45:44 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] An Error, eye strain, solution. In-Reply-To: <200505150038.j4F0cXI28340@pico.dm.unipi.it> References: <20050515003123.23F295C5C2@mprdmxin.myway.com> <200505150038.j4F0cXI28340@pico.dm.unipi.it> Message-ID: > You don't need to leave the browser to enlarge the fonts; browsers > usually support enlarging the font (control+ in mozilla). The new (CVS) builds of Mozilla allow you to use a custom stylesheet on a per-site basis, so you can change how certain aspects of a website simply by providing custom styling on a per-site basis. David A. Desrosiers desrod@gnu-designs.com http://gnu-designs.com From JBuck814366460 at aol.com Sat May 14 17:47:19 2005 From: JBuck814366460 at aol.com (Jared Buck) Date: Sat May 14 17:47:33 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] An Error, eye strain, solution. In-Reply-To: <20050515003123.23F295C5C2@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050515003123.23F295C5C2@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <42869C17.4060201@aol.com> You can change the font your browser displays such things in. The setting to do so depends on the browser you use. I'm a Firefox user, but other people use IE, Netscape, Mozilla, or even Opera. Which one do you use? rvijay07 wrote on 5/14/2005, 5:31 PM: > > I have beenr eading the E-Books as such in my browser last week. The > fonts were a little extra small. Hence, after three days I endedup > with red, watery and irritated eyes. Maybe I must read the E-Books by > opening them in Open Office with larger fonts. > > Vijay > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. > Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From rvijay07 at myway.com Sat May 14 17:56:22 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sat May 14 17:56:41 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] An Error, eye strain, solution. Message-ID: <20050515005622.B78EB3957@mprdmxin.myway.com> I am using Mozilla. Pressing Ctrl + did help change the fonts. However, making the background a less brighter color may also help in reducing the strain I feel. Is there a way to do this in the browser ? I am unable to find any options for this in my Mozilla 1.7.2. This Mozilla is a Debian Package. Also are there E-book readers for the desktop for Linux users ? What advantages do they offer ? I would also appreciate their web-sites. Thanks. Vijay --- On Sat 05/14, Jared Buck < JBuck814366460@aol.com > wrote: From: Jared Buck [mailto: JBuck814366460@aol.com] To: rvijay07@myway.com Cc: gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:47:19 -0700 Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] An Error, eye strain, solution. You can change the font your browser displays such things in. The
setting to do so depends on the browser you use. I'm a Firefox user,
but other people use IE, Netscape, Mozilla, or even Opera. Which one do
you use?

rvijay07 wrote on 5/14/2005, 5:31 PM:

>
> I have beenr eading the E-Books as such in my browser last week. The
> fonts were a little extra small. Hence, after three days I endedup
> with red, watery and irritated eyes. Maybe I must read the E-Books by
> opening them in Open Office with larger fonts.
>
> Vijay
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
> Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gutvol-d mailing list
> gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org
> http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d
>


_______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From distributedmel at gmail.com Sat May 14 18:04:17 2005 From: distributedmel at gmail.com (Melissa Er-Raqabi) Date: Sat May 14 18:04:31 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird Message-ID: Could you please take private your ongoing discussions of whose penis is bigger? I signed up for this list to read discussions of Gutenberg by its volunteers. Or was I wrong about what the name of the list implies? There is just so much noise on this list that I'm tempted to unsubscribe AGAIN, and you know what? I'm a Gutenberg Volunteer, and this list could be a very useful one to me. But you both give me a headache. Jon, why don't you join Bowerbird's Yahoo Group, which seems not to have a lot of traffic, and you two can chat to your heart's content? Or is it having people watch that really turns you two on? Can you please be quiet, PLEASE? From rvijay07 at myway.com Sat May 14 20:36:12 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sat May 14 20:36:33 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What is the last good NON PG E-book(s) you came across ? Message-ID: <20050515033612.3DCEA605F9@mprdmxin.myway.com> This thread may offer more book ideas for PG while being a learning experience for all. Here is one for starters: The Complete Horse Tamer: http://www.rarey.com/sites/jsrarey/jsrbook.html and a related site: http://www.rarey.com/sites/jsrarey/ Vijay :) _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From alex at awstudios.net Sat May 14 19:39:23 2005 From: alex at awstudios.net (Alex Wilson) Date: Sat May 14 20:41:01 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] HandHeld & E-Books In-Reply-To: <428678CF.15477.3BE523@localhost> Message-ID: On 5/14/05 4:16 PM, "Branko Collin" wrote: > On 14 May 2005, at 15:16, Alex Wilson wrote: >> On 5/13/05 8:29 PM, "rvijay07" wrote: >> >>> How convenient are handhelds to read E-books ? Specially in terms of >>> eye strain and power lasting etc., ? >> >> They're not bad as far as eye strain. Better than a CRT monitor, maybe >> not as good as a laptop LCC. Of course not as good on the eyes as a >> paper book, > > What does that mean, "eye strain"? As far as I know it's a subjective phrase. > How are CRTs "bad" for the eyes, > and print books "good"? I don't think CRTs are bad for the eyes, and I don't think print books are good for the eyes. Both tire my eyes out eventually, and CRTs do it quicker than (typical print size of) printed media. > What is the medical term for the condition > known as "eye strain"? I don't know if there is one. And because I view it as subjective, I chose to talk about it in relative terms: on a scale of CRT-to-LCD-to-print reading, my Palm device lands somewhere between CRT and LCD reading. On a larger scale, I'd probably put driving a car for long periods of time, reading in low light, and focusing on tiny glasses-screws as causing more eye strain than CRTs, if that helps. > What will happen if you have too much "eye > strain"? I can't speak for anyone else, but when I feel my eyes have been working to hard, I have to blink more often, I have trouble focusing my eyesight, I'd rather stop reading than continue, and I generally would rather have my eyes closed. Sometimes headaches and overall tiredness follows, but tired eyes alone are enough of a pain without other symptoms. > As far as I know, "eye strain" may as well be all old wives tales. If you're talking about an actual medical condition (where, say, working your eyes too much will lead to damaged eyesight in the long run), then I have no idea whether that's true or not. Sounds like common sense, but I'm no doctor. But my eyes get tired after working too hard. That's what I call eye strain, and that's what I was addressing in the original post. YMMV. Alex. -- http://www.telltaleweekly.org - Funding a Free Audiobook Library http://www.alexwilson.com - Alex Wilson Studios LLC From rvijay07 at myway.com Sat May 14 22:01:31 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sat May 14 22:01:52 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Did this happen to you ? Message-ID: <20050515050131.78B683966@mprdmxin.myway.com> Recently, searches are taking longer at the PG site at times. A few days ago, in the evening when I tried a search, it said something like server overloaded and request to try again. This is a good sign that more people are using PG. Vijay :) _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From erinm at mwt.net Sat May 14 22:06:39 2005 From: erinm at mwt.net (Erin M) Date: Sat May 14 22:04:32 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4286D8DF.7040602@mwt.net> The request is seconded. All the ego boxing is sidetracking to the purpose of the list. -erin Melissa Er-Raqabi wrote: >Can you please be quiet, PLEASE? > > From rvijay07 at myway.com Sat May 14 22:06:11 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sat May 14 22:06:27 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Selling/Promoting The Gutenberg Project. Message-ID: <20050515050611.409813966@mprdmxin.myway.com> Here is another suggestion that came to my mind. An ebook reader with the best of PG CD can be a great gift for a sick relative or someone who likes to travel etc., Ebook readers, handhelds along with PG CD/DVD, can be made available on a loan basis to sick patients and in hospital libraries etc., Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Sat May 14 22:11:14 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sat May 14 22:11:34 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Share your PG reading Wish List. Message-ID: <20050515051114.06866396C@mprdmxin.myway.com> Since, there are several ebooks at PG, I think sharing these lists will be a great learning experience for all. Here is my PG reading wish list: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/11555 http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/12021 * Daily Strengths for daily * The art of money getting * Grimm's Fairy tales The World for sale Lessons in Life * Philosophy of Misery Making both ends meet Living alone * True Riches University of Hard Knocks We can't have everything * From Wealth to Poverty The Price of Things The Healing of Nations Towards the Goal * Problems of Poverty On Compromise The key to peace Masters of Space Top of the World The Cost of Shelter Quit your worrying. My book of Indoor Games Common Sense, How to Exercise It Lives of the most remarkable Criminals Self-Development and the way to power An Iron Will. Fifteen years in Hell. The Vainty of Human Wishes * The Bed-Book of Happiness The Pleasures of Ignorance. A Book of Nonsense * Beautiful Thoughts The Pleasures of a Single Life Unhappy far-off things The Tree of Heaven Homestead on the Hillside Homes And How To Make Them Principles of Home Decoration, by Candace Wheeler The Consolation of Philosophy * Certain Success Cassell's Vegetarian Cookery [Subtitle: A Manual Of Cheap And Wholesome Diet] Things to Make * The Art of Soul-Winning The House in Good Taste Half Portions The Fun of Getting Thin * Outwitting our nerves Diet and Health Great Fortunes, and How They Were Made In Time Of Emergency The Chemistry of Food and Nutrition Success Mastery of Self for Wealth power Success. What Peace means Disease and its causes A Course in Wood Turning The Chemistry of Food and Nutrition http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/5/2/3/15237/15237-h/15237-h.htm Vegetarian Cookery Book http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/13887 Cassell's Vegetarian Cookery http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/14594 Why Worry http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/8554 _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From sly at victoria.tc.ca Sun May 15 00:40:08 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Sun May 15 00:40:30 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Did this happen to you ? In-Reply-To: <20050515050131.78B683966@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050515050131.78B683966@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2005, rvijay07 wrote: > Recently, searches are taking longer at the PG site at times. A few days ago, in the evening when I tried a search, it said something like server overloaded and request to try again. > > This is a good sign that more people are using PG. Yes, this has been a good deal more common over the last few months. According to Marcello, sometimes a cause of this can be people who use robots which request all 15,000+ bibliographic records from the catalog in quick succession. Apparantly also an issue was people linking to many of the images included in some of our html files, in such a way that when many people tried to view _their_ website, all the images would be requested from the main PG site. I believe these two examples are really more of some misusing the PG archives than of a positive increase in attention. However, I do believe that normal, "single user downloading an ebook" activity is increasing as well. It's nice to have the "Top 100" as a reminder that many PG files are constantly being downloaded every day. Because sometimes, if you are dealing with rather obscure material, you can start to wonder "Is anybody ever really going to look at this once it's posted?" Andrew From marcello at perathoner.de Sun May 15 00:44:12 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Sun May 15 00:44:33 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4286FDCC.3070802@perathoner.de> Melissa Er-Raqabi wrote: > Could you please take private your ongoing discussions of whose penis > is bigger? I signed up for this list to read discussions of Gutenberg > by its volunteers. Or was I wrong about what the name of the list > implies? What about a new list for size wars? I see that gutvol-p, for gutvol-penis-wars, is already taken. I propose gutvol-t, for gutvol-testosterone. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From ke at gnu.franken.de Sat May 14 21:58:53 2005 From: ke at gnu.franken.de (Karl Eichwalder) Date: Sun May 15 01:07:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Off Topic Discussion List Suggestion. In-Reply-To: <20050511212106.583403948@mprdmxin.myway.com> (rvijay's message of "Wed, 11 May 2005 17:21:06 -0400 (EDT)") References: <20050511212106.583403948@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: "rvijay07" writes: > I suggest an Off Topic Discussion list for PG. Just post here--gutvol-d is an umbrella list. -- http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/ | ,__o | _-\_<, | (*)/'(*) Key fingerprint = F138 B28F B7ED E0AC 1AB4 AA7F C90A 35C3 E9D0 5D1C From marcello at perathoner.de Sun May 15 01:52:20 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Sun May 15 01:52:43 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Did this happen to you ? In-Reply-To: References: <20050515050131.78B683966@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <42870DC4.30401@perathoner.de> Andrew Sly wrote: >> Recently, searches are taking longer at the PG site at times. A few >> days ago, in the evening when I tried a search, it said something >> like server overloaded and request to try again. >> >> This is a good sign that more people are using PG. > > Yes, this has been a good deal more common over the last few months. > > According to Marcello, sometimes a cause of this can be people who > use robots which request all 15,000+ bibliographic records from the > catalog in quick succession. Yes. If you access the site in the middle of a robot attack, the overload message is more probable. I try to kill off all robots that work during peak hours, but it's an uphill battle. > Apparantly also an issue was people > linking to many of the images included in some of our html files, in > such a way that when many people tried to view _their_ website, all > the images would be requested from the main PG site. That has been taken care of. You cannot inline PG images from third-party websites any more. > However, I do believe that normal, "single user downloading an ebook" > activity is increasing as well. According to Alexa, currently we are serving 0.002 % of all pages viewed on the internet. A year ago that was 0.001 %. We have more than doubled the pages we are serving. gutenberg.org is a top-5000 site now! See: http://www.gutenberg.org/internal/stats/alexa user: internal pass: books -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From rvijay07 at myway.com Sun May 15 03:47:01 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sun May 15 03:47:25 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Off Topic Discussion List Suggestion. Message-ID: <20050515104701.8FFE939B0@mprdmxin.myway.com> Karl Eichwalder ke at gnu.franken.de >>> Just post here--gutvol-d is an umbrella list. Normally members of a list prefer to stay on Topic, specially where Volunteers are participating. Very off-topic posts may start complaints etc., Hence, having another site/group for off topic discussions in preferable. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Sun May 15 04:17:35 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sun May 15 04:17:59 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What is the last good NON PG E-book(s) you came across ? Message-ID: <20050515111735.CD35D5C630@mprdmxin.myway.com> Look at this collection !!! http://www.etext.org/Fiction/ Here is a related Site: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/5116/ Vijay :) _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Sun May 15 05:08:54 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sun May 15 05:08:56 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What is the last good NON PG E-book(s) you came across ? Message-ID: <20050515120854.1BD825C445@mprdmxin.myway.com> A few more collections !!! http://www.freeonlinereading.com/links.htm http://www.talewins.com/Browzer/novels.htm http://www.bygosh.com/thebestnovels.htm http://www.bibliomania.com/ http://www.e-book.com.au/freebooks.htm http://www.free-online-novels.com/ _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From Bowerbird at aol.com Sun May 15 10:34:35 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sun May 15 10:34:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: well, yeah, sometimes even i feel like screaming Message-ID: <213.d8203a.2fb8e22b@aol.com> melissa said: > Could you please take private your ongoing > discussions of whose penis is bigger? ... > Can you please be quiet, PLEASE? yeah, sometimes i too get so bored with the tedium of the noring merry-go-round that i also absolutely feel like screaming. that observation i made about noring not knowing when he's passed the point of diminishing returns is quite applicable to his listserve discussions too. i _do_ realize when i'm testing subscriber patience, however, so i should be smarter about terminating. sometimes i opt out, as when i declined to respond to his challenges earlier on the bookpeople list, but then he mentions it months later, as if he had "won". if jon weren't so tenacious about spreading his "project gutenberg e-texts are untrustworthy" message to every nook and cranny of cyberspace, i probably wouldn't feel the need to address him. (but yes, i believe this campaign of his _does_ make what he says relevant to p.g. volunteers, and thus germane to this listserve in particular. it's certainly not a "private discussion" anymore, let alone one about "penis size", as you've put it.) but i suppose i should let it go, since -- unlike jon -- i do _not_ believe perception equals reality -- it's just temporary confusion -- so i do not think his attempts to manufacture a reality by creating the perceptions he wants to spin actually "work". so he's harmless. he thinks he's effective. he's not. on the other hand, even though jon resorts to personal attack at times, which i give back to him in spades, at least he mixes in a good dose of on-topic thinking in his threads too. so compared to the number of people on this list who dish attacks _exclusively_ in their replies to me, without ever even _touching_ the matters under discussion -- and your message here is an example -- jon's posts have _some_ redeeming value... even if his thinking is often badly muddled, at least he is trying to _do_ some thinking. how many other _thoughtful_ conversations happen on this list? i can't remember many. (kudos to vijay for his jump-start attempts; the enthusiasm of new converts is a real kick. it's just too bad there isn't a wiki that could help them negotiate a road already well-trod, get them up to speed before they lose steam.) i mean, the project gutenberg e-text library is one of _the_ shining examples of the potential to bring literacy into 21st-century cyberspace, which means it should be tremendously exciting, but you wouldn't know it from _this_ listserve, as it more closely resembles an old ghost-town. so, melissa, how about you? what is _your_ thinking on how the error-rate in the e-texts can be lowered? after all, some of them bear your name. surely you want them to be right? what do you think about jeff's google experiment? how do you think the project could be promoted? what issues do _you_ think need to be discussed? i've found the best way to get a listserve back on-topic is to post cogent messages, and not complaints about the other people. light a candle instead of cursing darkness. that's what i try to do. i am sure that you could've learned something from my posts, including the recent rounds, if you wanted. i'm sure that some people managed to do so. but also, of course, if you desire to remain oblivious, you can stop reading my messages. and if you're already not reading them, then it takes a mere quarter-second to poof a post. surely the burden of pressing the delete key can't be all _that_ pressing on you, can it? and hey, if it _is_, then perhaps you could learn how to use filters in your e-mail app. that way, you don't even have to press a key. there's no reason for you to _unsubscribe_. or were you just using a little hyperbole to make your point? it's fine if you were; i'm fond of using a little hyperbole myself. but i don't want to be insensitive to your request, even if you didn't pose it politely. so i'll cut back the frequency of my posts addressed to jon, to no more than 1 a day, so as not to overwhelm any e-mailboxes... so thanks for your feedback, melissa, and i hope to hear some input from you on more substantive issues as they come up here... -bowerbird p.s. so how big is _your_ penis? From jon at noring.name Sun May 15 12:40:15 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Sun May 15 12:40:30 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Untrustworthy explaines (was "screaming") In-Reply-To: <213.d8203a.2fb8e22b@aol.com> References: <213.d8203a.2fb8e22b@aol.com> Message-ID: <1971537302.20050515134015@noring.name> Bowerbird wrote: > Melissa said: >> Could you please take private your ongoing discussions of whose >> penis is bigger? ... Can you please be quiet, PLEASE? The problem I face at this moment is that indeed this thread between Bowerbird and me is sounding a lot like a school yard comparison of whose is bigger. I'll let the few others, who may have been following this thread, decide upon relative blame. So I had decided to simply cease replying on this thread, even to Bowerbird's message (not the one I'm replying to here) which prompted Melissa and others to say 'enough!' Even so, from my perspective Bowerbird makes a few statements in his last "apology" reply which I deem to be very misleading, not only about me, but to the PG community (which I would think most who've followed Bowerbird's messages over time see through.) All but one I won't reply to, letting each in the PG community decide for themselves whether or not any of his statements are misleading. But, there is one misleading statement, fully relevant to discussion on gutvol-d, which I do wish to briefly comment upon: > if jon weren't so tenacious about spreading his "project gutenberg > e-texts are untrustworthy" message to every nook and cranny of > cyberspace, i probably wouldn't feel the need to address him. The context of this statement is utterly misleading. My thoughts on this matter are far more complex than his pithy and intentionally misleading statement given above (trying to paint me as anti-PG -- in Scientology, the most nasty of all the religious cults, this technique of dealing with criticism is known as "dead-agenting".) For example, the DP portion of the PG collection is trustworthy. In addition, there are texts in the non-DP portion which are trustworthy. But there is a portion of the PG collection which I deem not to be trustworthy, as I define that word (which is a topic to itself, and one which I won't explain here.) And I have always proposed a solution (if I were anti-PG, why would I suggest a solution which fits into current the PG/DP practice?) One portion of the PG collection which I deem untrustworthy is that portion where the source information is not recorded (for most of the early PG texts, and up until very recently, it was a general policy that source information NOT be recorded, for reasons which I still don't understand, but giving Michael Hart the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume at the time it made logical sense.) Rather than explain in full detail (a whole treasise in effect) why not recording source info is Not Good, let me cite two examples: 1) Recent research by NetWorker strongly indicated that Mary Shelley's 'Frankenstein' at PG was copied from a modern (1961) and somewhat edited edition published by Bantam. If we see this in one text, then other pre-DP PG texts may also be derived from copyrighted edited editions. This is not good for reasons I need not explain. Of course, recording source information does not guarantee that someone did not use a modern edited edition. But it is a step in the right direction and *forces* accountability. It also tells the volunteer base that "this is important", and most volunteers will take it to heart as being important in all their activities, since all the volunteers are dedicated folk who believe in the mission of PG and won't do anything to harm it. Of course, better yet is to have the page scans of the source book available alongside the digital version. 2) The etext of "The Perfumed Garden of Sheik Nefzaoui", published by Sir Richard F. Burton in the late 1800's, is found at a few sites on the Internet (it is not a PG etext, but was produced in the same manner, so its example also applies to early PG texts.) This etext edition is derived from a substantially censored/expurgated (and itself public domain!) edition from the early 20th century. Since the etext is being paraded as the original (it is simply described as "Burton's Perfumed Garden"), this is unintentionally misleading to those who read the text and believe it is authentic. How can one trust an etext if it may not be derived from, and authoritative to, an *acceptable* source edition? This is only a partial answer to the trustworthiness aspects. There's more to it than the above, but I'll mercifully end it here. Now what is the solution? The minimal solution is for PG and its volunteers to: 1) Check through each of the non-DP texts, and determine whether source information is recorded in the document. If not, contact the individual(s) who transcribed the book and ask them to submit that information for inclusion in the etext. 2) For those books whose provenance is still not known after (1), PG should *request* the DP community to place these books on the "redo" fast track queue. (I know that DP is redoing a lot of older PG texts, but a *humble request* from the PG leaders to make it a priority is a good idea and will likely be acknowledged with speeding up the pace.) For each text, DP folk should locate a *reasonably* authoritative public domain edition and use that for transcribing. Trust is further added in that page scans will be available. In addition, by DP doing this, further trust is added since the process is done in public view. The best, maximal solution is simply to redo all the pre-DP books by DP, with careful assessment of the sources used (this is especially good to do since most of the popular classics are found in the pre-DP collection.) The already done texts can be used, such as by employing Bowerbird's advanced text comparison tools (I'm taking his word that he has such powerful tools) to aid in the proofing process of the updated, redone digital texts. > i mean, the project gutenberg e-text library is one of _the_ shining > examples of the potential to bring literacy into 21st-century > cyberspace, which means it should be tremendously exciting, but you > wouldn't know it from _this_ listserve, as it more closely resembles > an old ghost-town. PG's e-text library is a great example of "people power". And this understanding of the power of volunteers working together for a common purpose led Charles Franks to develop the next generation system: Distributed Proofreaders. I believe that those wanting to help digitize the public domain, and this includes tool development, should focus their energies in assisting DP any way they can, both in their current system, and to help DP move to the next-generation system. It is the DP approach which I believe is the best way to achieve digitizing the entire public domain with high quality, trustworthiness, and uniformity/consistency. Bowerbird certainly does have some good ideas which can be used to improve the DP system, and they need to be evaluated on their merit. Jon Noring From ds at dougschroeder.com Sat May 14 14:32:55 2005 From: ds at dougschroeder.com (Doug Schroeder) Date: Sun May 15 14:01:46 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] bowerturkey Message-ID: <8717E267C6767348AD6234EA0CC628C508E12B@NTXBEUS01.exchange.xchg> bowerturkey, Please just go away on you own this time. How many more cycles of you getting booted and returning should I be expecting? Alternatively, you could just grow up a little. One made-up word for you: vaporware. I'd have no problem with you if you actually DID SOMETHING. I think I know many other people (some coders) with your personality set. They back it up, however, and thus I like their attitudes. (And yes, I have enough to figure you out, every other post is your opinion on something.) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3516 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050514/2de22f86/attachment.bin From jtinsley at pobox.com Sun May 15 14:18:17 2005 From: jtinsley at pobox.com (Jim Tinsley) Date: Sun May 15 14:18:27 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050515211817.GA694@panix.com> On Sat, May 14, 2005 at 06:04:17PM -0700, Melissa Er-Raqabi wrote: >Could you please take private your ongoing discussions of whose penis >is bigger? I signed up for this list to read discussions of Gutenberg >by its volunteers. Or was I wrong about what the name of the list >implies? > >There is just so much noise on this list that I'm tempted to >unsubscribe AGAIN, and you know what? I'm a Gutenberg Volunteer, and >this list could be a very useful one to me. But you both give me a >headache. Jon, why don't you join Bowerbird's Yahoo Group, which seems >not to have a lot of traffic, and you two can chat to your heart's >content? Or is it having people watch that really turns you two on? > >Can you please be quiet, PLEASE? Thanks for trying, Melissa, but I'm afraid that neither Jon nor Bowerbird, in their very different ways, actually understand what we're doing here, so I'm afraid the only way to get our list back is to change the character of it, and limit membership to people who do, or impose very narrow moderation parameters. Greg, I will reluctantly now support a move in this direction. jim From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sun May 15 14:39:26 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sun May 15 14:39:27 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: <20050515211817.GA694@panix.com> References: <20050515211817.GA694@panix.com> Message-ID: <20050515213926.GA29498@pglaf.org> On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 05:18:17PM -0400, Jim Tinsley wrote: > On Sat, May 14, 2005 at 06:04:17PM -0700, Melissa Er-Raqabi wrote: > >Could you please take private your ongoing discussions of whose penis > >is bigger? I signed up for this list to read discussions of Gutenberg > >by its volunteers. Or was I wrong about what the name of the list > >implies? > > > >There is just so much noise on this list that I'm tempted to > >unsubscribe AGAIN, and you know what? I'm a Gutenberg Volunteer, and > >this list could be a very useful one to me. But you both give me a > >headache. Jon, why don't you join Bowerbird's Yahoo Group, which seems > >not to have a lot of traffic, and you two can chat to your heart's > >content? Or is it having people watch that really turns you two on? > > > >Can you please be quiet, PLEASE? > > Thanks for trying, Melissa, but I'm afraid that neither Jon nor > Bowerbird, in their very different ways, actually understand what > we're doing here, so I'm afraid the only way to get our list > back is to change the character of it, and limit membership to > people who do, or impose very narrow moderation parameters. > > Greg, I will reluctantly now support a move in this direction. If we take this direction, next step is to basic form moderation guidelines and find at least two volunteer moderators (not me), who will provide rapid turnaroud time. gutvol-d is by far the most valuable general forum PG has, so we don't want to toss the baby with the bathwater. (Ok, maybe a few *particular* babies, already named :-) If someone knows of an easy way to block per-address messages from particular individuals via Mailman, please clue me in. This doesn't seem to be a feature of their "topics" facility. Personally, I simply don't read or respond to anything that Jon or BB writes, and haven't for quite some time. I guess we get enough newcomers to the lists that there is a constant influx of people willing to respond. I would use Procmail to filter such messages (all modern mail clients have similar filtering capability), and probably should, but since I get well over 600 spam messages in an average day just dump it with the rest of the crud. -- Greg From jtinsley at pobox.com Sun May 15 15:07:53 2005 From: jtinsley at pobox.com (Jim Tinsley) Date: Sun May 15 15:08:05 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: <20050515213926.GA29498@pglaf.org> References: <20050515211817.GA694@panix.com> <20050515213926.GA29498@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <20050515220753.GA17403@panix.com> On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 02:39:26PM -0700, Greg Newby wrote: >On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 05:18:17PM -0400, Jim Tinsley wrote: >> On Sat, May 14, 2005 at 06:04:17PM -0700, Melissa Er-Raqabi wrote: >> >Could you please take private your ongoing discussions of whose penis >> >is bigger? I signed up for this list to read discussions of Gutenberg >> >by its volunteers. Or was I wrong about what the name of the list >> >implies? >> > >> >There is just so much noise on this list that I'm tempted to >> >unsubscribe AGAIN, and you know what? I'm a Gutenberg Volunteer, and >> >this list could be a very useful one to me. But you both give me a >> >headache. Jon, why don't you join Bowerbird's Yahoo Group, which seems >> >not to have a lot of traffic, and you two can chat to your heart's >> >content? Or is it having people watch that really turns you two on? >> > >> >Can you please be quiet, PLEASE? >> >> Thanks for trying, Melissa, but I'm afraid that neither Jon nor >> Bowerbird, in their very different ways, actually understand what >> we're doing here, so I'm afraid the only way to get our list >> back is to change the character of it, and limit membership to >> people who do, or impose very narrow moderation parameters. >> >> Greg, I will reluctantly now support a move in this direction. > >If we take this direction, next step is to basic form moderation >guidelines and find at least two volunteer moderators (not me), >who will provide rapid turnaroud time. Alas, not me, either. I'm conscious of the moral necessity for those who advocate a result to dig in and make it happen, but I'm just too buried in useful work to take the time. Of course, constant moderation is an awfully "nice" option, but whoever does it will necessarily take time out of doing useful work; maybe we should take that into consideration--is it worth tying someone or two someones up with a daily chore just to be "nice"? Where is the justification? If I won't take time to do it, why should I pass that burden to someone else? > >gutvol-d is by far the most valuable general forum PG has, so >we don't want to toss the baby with the bathwater. (Ok, maybe > a few *particular* babies, already named :-) > Heh. Remember, Michael predicted this, before the list was formed, back in '99. Guess the rest of us were a touch too idealistic to believe the day would come. But I think it has: why should any real volunteer want to post here anymore, with the threat of being dragged down into a mudfight? I never posted here much, but it was once a pleasant neighborhood, with valuable contributions. How say the rest of you -- should we erase the graffiti? jim From erinm at mwt.net Sun May 15 16:30:59 2005 From: erinm at mwt.net (Erin M) Date: Sun May 15 16:28:46 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Moderating the list. Was "Dear Jon and Bowerbird" In-Reply-To: <20050515220753.GA17403@panix.com> References: <20050515211817.GA694@panix.com> <20050515213926.GA29498@pglaf.org> <20050515220753.GA17403@panix.com> Message-ID: <4287DBB3.8050301@mwt.net> I moderated a news list for 4 years. Anyway, I gave everyone a notice when signing up that I disliked playing censor, so either self-censor or get the boot. One warning and only one. Worked quite well. The general warning was sent that the participant was either 1)filling up mailboxes with off-topic posts 2) using disrespectful language against one or more members of the list 3) generally acting like a troll or worse, a spammer. That one warning was generally enough. I think I only had to outright ban one person in 4 years. The point of this being, perhaps a very marginally involved moderator would be enough? So what guidelines are then acceptable? It would be easier to find a low-involvement moderator than someone who will scan everything daily... -erin From cannona at fireantproductions.com Sun May 15 17:03:02 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Sun May 15 17:03:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: <20050515213926.GA29498@pglaf.org> References: <20050515211817.GA694@panix.com> <20050515213926.GA29498@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050515185545.03706298@mail.fireantproductions.com> I for one would hate to see this list get lost in the noise, so I'm willing to help out with moderation. Perhaps with a little bit of moderation, we can bring the list back up to the level it was at when it was first created. I've already got a busy schedule, with Chiropractic school and my family, not to mention the work I already do for PG, but I do check my e-mail frequently and could at least help. Of course, I could never do it alone, nor would I want to. So, if a few more folks want to come forward, we could probably make this work. This is of course assuming that the members of this list will have me. Aaron Cannon At 04:39 PM 5/15/2005, you wrote: >On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 05:18:17PM -0400, Jim Tinsley wrote: > > On Sat, May 14, 2005 at 06:04:17PM -0700, Melissa Er-Raqabi wrote: > > >Could you please take private your ongoing discussions of whose penis > > >is bigger? I signed up for this list to read discussions of Gutenberg > > >by its volunteers. Or was I wrong about what the name of the list > > >implies? > > > > > >There is just so much noise on this list that I'm tempted to > > >unsubscribe AGAIN, and you know what? I'm a Gutenberg Volunteer, and > > >this list could be a very useful one to me. But you both give me a > > >headache. Jon, why don't you join Bowerbird's Yahoo Group, which seems > > >not to have a lot of traffic, and you two can chat to your heart's > > >content? Or is it having people watch that really turns you two on? > > > > > >Can you please be quiet, PLEASE? > > > > Thanks for trying, Melissa, but I'm afraid that neither Jon nor > > Bowerbird, in their very different ways, actually understand what > > we're doing here, so I'm afraid the only way to get our list > > back is to change the character of it, and limit membership to > > people who do, or impose very narrow moderation parameters. > > > > Greg, I will reluctantly now support a move in this direction. > >If we take this direction, next step is to basic form moderation >guidelines and find at least two volunteer moderators (not me), >who will provide rapid turnaroud time. > >gutvol-d is by far the most valuable general forum PG has, so >we don't want to toss the baby with the bathwater. (Ok, maybe >a few *particular* babies, already named :-) > >If someone knows of an easy way to block per-address messages >from particular individuals via Mailman, please clue me in. This >doesn't seem to be a feature of their "topics" facility. > >Personally, I simply don't read or respond to anything that Jon or BB >writes, and haven't for quite some time. I guess we get enough >newcomers to the lists that there is a constant influx of people willing >to respond. I would use Procmail to filter such messages (all modern >mail clients have similar filtering capability), and probably should, >but since I get well over 600 spam messages in an average day just dump >it with the rest of the crud. > -- Greg > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) From jmk at his.com Sun May 15 17:24:55 2005 From: jmk at his.com (Janet Kegg) Date: Sun May 15 17:24:39 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: <20050515220753.GA17403@panix.com> References: <20050515211817.GA694@panix.com> <20050515213926.GA29498@pglaf.org> <20050515220753.GA17403@panix.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2005 18:07:53 -0400, you wrote: > >How say the rest of you -- should we erase the graffiti? I don't see the need. I don't find it hard to just ignore the exchanges that have become tedious. I glance at the list of emails that filter into my gutvol mailbox and mark some of them read. -- Janet From sly at victoria.tc.ca Sun May 15 17:50:44 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Sun May 15 17:50:58 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Question regarding naming for CSS In-Reply-To: References: <20050515211817.GA694@panix.com> <20050515213926.GA29498@pglaf.org> <20050515220753.GA17403@panix.com> Message-ID: Ok, new topic of discussion. I'm putting the finishing touches on a book for PG. There will be an html file made as well as plain text. This book includes a decent amount of quoted letters and other documents in it. Fairly often, there are headers and/or footers to these which are aligned to be close to the right margin. So I made a simple CSS declaration for these: .dateheader {text-align: right; margin-right:2em;} However, as I progressed through, the name "dateheader" began to seem little inaccurate. The content is also sometimes the name of a place or a person, or a brief phrase. Any suggestions for a more general (but still accurate) name I could use for this CSS selector? Here are a few example of where I have used this class:

PRETORIA, April 20, 1879.

My last letter had not been gone many hours by the mail express when Lanyon ran into my room, to tell me that the Boer camp was actually broken up and the Boers dispersing.

==================

The Committee can add nothing to the above, and feel that there will not be one man among the thousands who have joined the Reform movement who will not find it consistent with honour and humanity to co-operate loyally in the carrying out of the Committee's decision.

By order of the Committee.

==================

'Notice is hereby given that this Committee adheres to the National Union Manifesto, and reiterates its desire to maintain the independence of the Republic. The fact that rumours are in course of circulation to the effect that a force has crossed the Bechuanaland border renders it necessary to take active steps for the defence of Johannesburg and preservation of order. The Committee earnestly desire that the inhabitants should refrain from taking any action which can be construed as an overt act of hostility against the Government. By order of the Committee,

'J. PERCY FITZPATRICK,
'Secretary.'

==================

JOHANNESBURG, S.A.R.,
24th March, 1899.

GENTLEMEN,

In response to the invitation from the Government of the South African Republic conveyed to us by Mr. E. Lippert, we beg to submit the enclosed memorandum upon the franchise question.

==================

ARTICLE XX.

This Convention will be ratified by a Volksraad of the South African Republic within the period of six months after its execution, and in default of such ratification this Convention shall be null and void.

Signed in duplicate in London this 27th day of February, 1884.

HERCULES ROBINSON.
S.J.P. KRUGER.
S.J. DU TOIT.
N.J. SMIT.

From joshua at hutchinson.net Sun May 15 17:59:36 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Sun May 15 17:59:47 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird Message-ID: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Tinsley" > > How say the rest of you -- should we erase the graffiti? > Well, I think we can all agree most of the problem is one particular person. As someone who has been "dragged into a mudfight" with this person before, I know how easy it is. All of his negative qualities not-withstanding ... he is an amazingly good troll. Jon, while in this instance is posting a high noise-to-signal ratio, has on many occasions posted some very well thoughtout and useful information. While some out there may disagree with how far he wants PG to go on the meta-data front, he has some very good ideas in this area and has shown a willingness to discuss constructively. The other person in the matter has not shown any of these good qualities. I think we should ban bowerbird permanently from the list. In my opinion, the noise on this list drops to a very low level when he goes away for short periods. While no one will be surprised that I advocate banning bowerbird, I think this is something he has brought upon himself. Josh From brandon at corruptedtruth.com Sun May 15 18:01:49 2005 From: brandon at corruptedtruth.com (Brandon Galbraith) Date: Sun May 15 18:02:06 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050515185545.03706298@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <20050515211817.GA694@panix.com> <20050515213926.GA29498@pglaf.org> <6.2.1.2.0.20050515185545.03706298@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <4287F0FD.5030704@corruptedtruth.com> I would be more then willing to help with this task. -brandon Aaron Cannon wrote: > I for one would hate to see this list get lost in the noise, so I'm > willing to help out with moderation. Perhaps with a little bit of > moderation, we can bring the list back up to the level it was at when > it was first created. I've already got a busy schedule, with > Chiropractic school and my family, not to mention the work I already > do for PG, but I do check my e-mail frequently and could at least > help. Of course, I could never do it alone, nor would I want to. So, > if a few more folks want to come forward, we could probably make this > work. This is of course assuming that the members of this list will > have me. > > Aaron Cannon > > > At 04:39 PM 5/15/2005, you wrote: > >> On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 05:18:17PM -0400, Jim Tinsley wrote: >> > On Sat, May 14, 2005 at 06:04:17PM -0700, Melissa Er-Raqabi wrote: >> > >Could you please take private your ongoing discussions of whose penis >> > >is bigger? I signed up for this list to read discussions of Gutenberg >> > >by its volunteers. Or was I wrong about what the name of the list >> > >implies? >> > > >> > >There is just so much noise on this list that I'm tempted to >> > >unsubscribe AGAIN, and you know what? I'm a Gutenberg Volunteer, and >> > >this list could be a very useful one to me. But you both give me a >> > >headache. Jon, why don't you join Bowerbird's Yahoo Group, which >> seems >> > >not to have a lot of traffic, and you two can chat to your heart's >> > >content? Or is it having people watch that really turns you two on? >> > > >> > >Can you please be quiet, PLEASE? >> > >> > Thanks for trying, Melissa, but I'm afraid that neither Jon nor >> > Bowerbird, in their very different ways, actually understand what >> > we're doing here, so I'm afraid the only way to get our list >> > back is to change the character of it, and limit membership to >> > people who do, or impose very narrow moderation parameters. >> > >> > Greg, I will reluctantly now support a move in this direction. >> >> If we take this direction, next step is to basic form moderation >> guidelines and find at least two volunteer moderators (not me), >> who will provide rapid turnaroud time. >> >> gutvol-d is by far the most valuable general forum PG has, so >> we don't want to toss the baby with the bathwater. (Ok, maybe >> a few *particular* babies, already named :-) >> >> If someone knows of an easy way to block per-address messages >> from particular individuals via Mailman, please clue me in. This >> doesn't seem to be a feature of their "topics" facility. >> >> Personally, I simply don't read or respond to anything that Jon or BB >> writes, and haven't for quite some time. I guess we get enough >> newcomers to the lists that there is a constant influx of people willing >> to respond. I would use Procmail to filter such messages (all modern >> mail clients have similar filtering capability), and probably should, >> but since I get well over 600 spam messages in an average day just dump >> it with the rest of the crud. >> -- Greg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gutvol-d mailing list >> gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >> http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > > > > -- > E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com > Skype: cannona > MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail > address.) > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > From joshua at hutchinson.net Sun May 15 18:05:22 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Sun May 15 18:05:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Question regarding naming for CSS Message-ID: <20050516010522.A7E1E10969A@ws6-4.us4.outblaze.com> I'm guessing, based on your examples, that you want the CSS to be structural. Personally, I'd just mark it as .right {text-align: right; margin-right:2em;} But that is naming according to presentation as opposed to structural. Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Sly" To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" Subject: [gutvol-d] Question regarding naming for CSS Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 17:50:44 -0700 (PDT) > > Ok, new topic of discussion. > > I'm putting the finishing touches on a book for PG. > There will be an html file made as well as plain text. > This book includes a decent amount of quoted letters > and other documents in it. Fairly often, there are > headers and/or footers to these which are aligned > to be close to the right margin. > > So I made a simple CSS declaration for these: > > .dateheader {text-align: right; margin-right:2em;} > > However, as I progressed through, the name "dateheader" > began to seem little inaccurate. The content is also > sometimes the name of a place or a person, or a brief > phrase. > > Any suggestions for a more general (but still accurate) > name I could use for this CSS selector? > > > Here are a few example of where I have used this class: > > >

> PRETORIA, April 20, 1879. >

> >

My last letter had not been gone many hours by the mail express when > Lanyon ran into my room, to tell me that the Boer camp was actually > broken up and the Boers dispersing.

> > ================== > >

The Committee can add nothing to the above, and feel that there will > not be one man among the thousands who have joined the Reform > movement who will not find it consistent with honour and humanity to > co-operate loyally in the carrying out of the Committee's decision.

> >

> By order of the Committee.

> > ================== > >

'Notice is hereby given that this Committee adheres to the National > Union Manifesto, and reiterates its desire to maintain the > independence of the Republic. The fact that rumours are in course of > circulation to the effect that a force has crossed the Bechuanaland > border renders it necessary to take active steps for the defence > of Johannesburg and preservation of order. The Committee earnestly > desire that the inhabitants should refrain from taking any action > which can be construed as an overt act of hostility against the > Government. By order of the Committee,

> >

> 'J. PERCY FITZPATRICK,
> 'Secretary.'

> > ================== > >

> JOHANNESBURG, S.A.R.,
> 24th March, 1899.

> >

GENTLEMEN,

> >

In response to the invitation from the Government of the South > African Republic conveyed to us by Mr. E. Lippert, we beg to submit > the enclosed memorandum upon the franchise question.

> > ================== > >

ARTICLE XX.

> >

This Convention will be ratified by a Volksraad of the South African > Republic within the period of six months after its execution, and in > default of such ratification this Convention shall be null and void.

> >

Signed in duplicate in London this 27th day of February, 1884.

> >

> HERCULES ROBINSON.
> S.J.P. KRUGER.
> S.J. DU TOIT.
> N.J. SMIT.

> > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From jmk at his.com Sun May 15 18:11:13 2005 From: jmk at his.com (Janet Kegg) Date: Sun May 15 18:10:59 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Question regarding naming for CSS In-Reply-To: References: <20050515211817.GA694@panix.com> <20050515213926.GA29498@pglaf.org> <20050515220753.GA17403@panix.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2005 17:50:44 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >Ok, new topic of discussion. > >I'm putting the finishing touches on a book for PG. >There will be an html file made as well as plain text. >This book includes a decent amount of quoted letters >and other documents in it. Fairly often, there are >headers and/or footers to these which are aligned >to be close to the right margin. > >So I made a simple CSS declaration for these: > >.dateheader {text-align: right; margin-right:2em;} > >However, as I progressed through, the name "dateheader" >began to seem little inaccurate. The content is also >sometimes the name of a place or a person, or a brief >phrase. > >Any suggestions for a more general (but still accurate) >name I could use for this CSS selector? I suggest .alignright Also useful for signatures. (I actually use .ar -- I like short and easy to type.) -- Janet From JBuck814366460 at aol.com Sun May 15 18:17:25 2005 From: JBuck814366460 at aol.com (Jared Buck) Date: Sun May 15 18:17:44 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050515185545.03706298@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <20050515211817.GA694@panix.com> <20050515213926.GA29498@pglaf.org> <6.2.1.2.0.20050515185545.03706298@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <4287F4A5.6050501@aol.com> I don't mind checking the posts on here on an occasional basis to help out if needed. This list gets a lot less traffic than other mailing lists I subscribe to, so it wouldn't be a problem for me to look into helping out by modding a bit, on top of the other things I do for PG. Jared Aaron Cannon wrote on 5/15/2005, 5:03 PM: > I for one would hate to see this list get lost in the noise, so I'm > willing > to help out with moderation. Perhaps with a little bit of moderation, we > can bring the list back up to the level it was at when it was first > created. I've already got a busy schedule, with Chiropractic school > and my > family, not to mention the work I already do for PG, but I do check my > e-mail frequently and could at least help. Of course, I could never > do it > alone, nor would I want to. So, if a few more folks want to come > forward, > we could probably make this work. This is of course assuming that the > members of this list will have me. > > Aaron Cannon > > > At 04:39 PM 5/15/2005, you wrote: > >On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 05:18:17PM -0400, Jim Tinsley wrote: > > > On Sat, May 14, 2005 at 06:04:17PM -0700, Melissa Er-Raqabi wrote: > > > >Could you please take private your ongoing discussions of whose > penis > > > >is bigger? I signed up for this list to read discussions of > Gutenberg > > > >by its volunteers. Or was I wrong about what the name of the list > > > >implies? > > > > > > > >There is just so much noise on this list that I'm tempted to > > > >unsubscribe AGAIN, and you know what? I'm a Gutenberg Volunteer, and > > > >this list could be a very useful one to me. But you both give me a > > > >headache. Jon, why don't you join Bowerbird's Yahoo Group, which > seems > > > >not to have a lot of traffic, and you two can chat to your heart's > > > >content? Or is it having people watch that really turns you two on? > > > > > > > >Can you please be quiet, PLEASE? > > > > > > Thanks for trying, Melissa, but I'm afraid that neither Jon nor > > > Bowerbird, in their very different ways, actually understand what > > > we're doing here, so I'm afraid the only way to get our list > > > back is to change the character of it, and limit membership to > > > people who do, or impose very narrow moderation parameters. > > > > > > Greg, I will reluctantly now support a move in this direction. > > > >If we take this direction, next step is to basic form moderation > >guidelines and find at least two volunteer moderators (not me), > >who will provide rapid turnaroud time. > > > >gutvol-d is by far the most valuable general forum PG has, so > >we don't want to toss the baby with the bathwater. (Ok, maybe > >a few *particular* babies, already named :-) > > > >If someone knows of an easy way to block per-address messages > >from particular individuals via Mailman, please clue me in. This > >doesn't seem to be a feature of their "topics" facility. > > > >Personally, I simply don't read or respond to anything that Jon or BB > >writes, and haven't for quite some time. I guess we get enough > >newcomers to the lists that there is a constant influx of people willing > >to respond. I would use Procmail to filter such messages (all modern > >mail clients have similar filtering capability), and probably should, > >but since I get well over 600 spam messages in an average day just dump > >it with the rest of the crud. > > -- Greg > > > >_______________________________________________ > >gutvol-d mailing list > >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > > > -- > E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com > Skype: cannona > MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail > address.) > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From jon at noring.name Sun May 15 18:27:01 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Sun May 15 18:27:23 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> Josh wrote: > Jim Tinsley wrote: >> How say the rest of you -- should we erase the graffiti? > Well, I think we can all agree most of the problem is one > particular person. As someone who has been "dragged into a > mudfight" with this person before, I know how easy it is. All of > his negative qualities not-withstanding ... he is an amazingly good > troll. > Jon, while in this instance is posting a high noise-to-signal > ratio, has on many occasions posted some very well thoughtout and > useful information. While some out there may disagree with how far > he wants PG to go on the meta-data front, he has some very good > ideas in this area and has shown a willingness to discuss > constructively. As Melissa pointed out, and which was very insightful, just parsing the name of 'gutvol-d' means it is a general discussion list for PG volunteers. It does appear the original charter for the group is for those who are active PG volunteers to "talk shop". That is, to talk about how to handle issues met today in doing volunteer work for PG, whatever it may be. (Such as "how do I do this?"). This probably should not include, in hindsight, some of my messages which mostly deal with "where should PG go in the future" or the related "how should PG change to meet new goals" type of messages. I apologize to everyone here for not staying within the charter for gutvol-d. Now Greg did start another group to discuss what I think are "organizational/governance" issues. (The name of that group eludes me -- it's been pretty inactive for quite a while.) I'm not sure if the "future-oriented" ideas are intended to fit into that group -- I sort of think not. If not, then a new group, maybe called 'gutfuture', could be created to discuss these types of thoughts, ideas and proposals. Jon (p.s., thanks Josh.) From jon at noring.name Sun May 15 18:56:27 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Sun May 15 18:56:45 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Question regarding naming for CSS In-Reply-To: References: <20050515211817.GA694@panix.com> <20050515213926.GA29498@pglaf.org> <20050515220753.GA17403@panix.com> Message-ID: <944674083.20050515195627@noring.name> Andrew asked: > I'm putting the finishing touches on a book for PG. > There will be an html file made as well as plain text. > This book includes a decent amount of quoted letters > and other documents in it. Fairly often, there are > headers and/or footers to these which are aligned > to be close to the right margin. > > So I made a simple CSS declaration for these: > > .dateheader {text-align: right; margin-right:2em;} > > However, as I progressed through, the name "dateheader" > began to seem little inaccurate. The content is also > sometimes the name of a place or a person, or a brief > phrase. > > Any suggestions for a more general (but still accurate) > name I could use for this CSS selector? I don't have any specific suggestion. But one approach might be to investigate how you'd tag that in TEI, then build your class library based on that. Another powerful feature of using the 'class' attribute in XHTML is that one can specify multiple classes in the same 'class' attribute value (the 'class' attribute type is NMTOKENS.) I've found this sometimes gives greater flexibility in both structural markup and in applying CSS styling via selectors. This might help you in the particular markup problem you posed, but not sure. If it might, read on... For those not familiar with multiple classes, here's an example (not targeted to Andrew's specific problem.) This example comes right out of the proposed OEBPS 1.2.1 specification document I'm now working on:

Following XHTML 1.1, the Core/Common attribute style is deprecated in Basic 1.2. It may be removed in a future version of this specification. Thus, for future upgradeability of documents, it is strongly recommended the style attribute not be used in Basic 1.2 documents; instead, use either the style element or external style sheets.

For the seen above, the following syntax is used: the first 'class' value item in the list says if it is an element or attribute, the second gives whether it is required or optional, and the third describes its status in the spec (normal, deprecated or removed), for a total of 12 combinations. CSS can be independently applied to these classes, such as the color 'red' for attributes, normal font style for optional, and italic for deprecated. Instead of having to deal with 12 different CSS selectors, we only have to deal with three. Something tells me, Andrew, that your problem might be nicely solved using the multiple class approach. Worth thinking about at least. Jon Noring From jon at noring.name Sun May 15 19:21:33 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Sun May 15 19:22:23 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Question regarding naming for CSS In-Reply-To: References: <20050515211817.GA694@panix.com> <20050515213926.GA29498@pglaf.org> <20050515220753.GA17403@panix.com> Message-ID: <419086060.20050515202133@noring.name> Janet wrote: > Andrew asked: >> I'm putting the finishing touches on a book for PG. >> There will be an html file made as well as plain text. >> This book includes a decent amount of quoted letters >> and other documents in it. Fairly often, there are >> headers and/or footers to these which are aligned >> to be close to the right margin. >> >> So I made a simple CSS declaration for these: >> >> .dateheader {text-align: right; margin-right:2em;} >> >> However, as I progressed through, the name "dateheader" >> began to seem little inaccurate. The content is also >> sometimes the name of a place or a person, or a brief >> phrase. > I suggest .alignright > > Also useful for signatures. (I actually use .ar -- I like short and > easy to type.) In some ways simply following visual presentation in the markup makes life a whole lot easier. On the other hand, if the purpose of the markup is to semantically identify what a piece of text is (such as a date, or an addressee), then using class values which are presentation-agnostic is preferred. To a blind person, visual layout, especially when the visual layout is NOT communicated to them, is meaningless. For most of us gifted with good eyesight, we sort of take it for granted that typographic layout is usually intended to visually communicate the structure of documents and the semantics of content. Without such visual layout (that is, when the content is scrunched into a steady stream of look-alike words like Greek was written at the time of Christ), it is a lot harder for the reader to discern things such as "this is a header to a new section", "this is a new chapter", etc. Tyopgraphic layout conventions do vary from era to era and from country to country. They even vary in the same era/country. People are pretty good at figuring out the structures/semantics associated with particular typographic conventions in a book given to them, provided they can understand the language. It gets a lot tougher if one does not know the language, obviously! (Or the book uses a typographic convention they know well.) In addition, when we markup the structure and semantics of content, the content is much easier to repurpose, such as to visually present it per the typographic conventions the reader prefers, or is used to. The content is much more flexible with regards to reflowing and adapting to other conventions (and to adapt to electronic reading systems as well which is one reason why PDF is so despised since it does NOT adapt to the end-user's hardware limitations.) And of course this should improve accessibility (text-to-speech), especially if a standardized markup vocabulary is used which focuses strictly on structure and semantics, such as a tight subset of TEI (as Sebastian Rahz advocates), the Digital Talking Book standard, and others. Jon Noring From cjc at gutenberg.net.au Sun May 15 19:58:27 2005 From: cjc at gutenberg.net.au (Col Choat) Date: Sun May 15 19:58:32 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: <20050515220753.GA17403@panix.com> Message-ID: I have only TODAY resubscribed after a long absence only to find all this rubbish still happening. Please, Jim, erase the graffiti! I am sure that I have missed a lot of useful information and discussion, but on balance I just couldn't stand it and it wasted a lot of my time even when I just tried to read enough to decide whether I was reading rubbish or not. Col Choat Heh. Remember, Michael predicted this, before the list was formed, back in '99. Guess the rest of us were a touch too idealistic to believe the day would come. But I think it has: why should any real volunteer want to post here anymore, with the threat of being dragged down into a mudfight? I never posted here much, but it was once a pleasant neighborhood, with valuable contributions. How say the rest of you -- should we erase the graffiti? jim From cannona at fireantproductions.com Sun May 15 20:16:52 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Sun May 15 20:18:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> References: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050515215042.02f06c90@mail.fireantproductions.com> I personally don't feel that discussions about the future of Project Gutenberg are out of place here. After all, most of the future direction of PG depends on the volunteers. I also don't feel that Jon has been especially inflammatory in his writings. As Josh said, it's easy to get sucked into a flame war with bowerbird (I am also guilty of posting a couple messages that served no purpose other than that of making a bad situation worse), but I feel that the many contributions of Jon to this list outweigh his small laps in judgement. Also, for those of you who don't remember, it's not a question of whether or not we should ban bowerbird. That decision was already made by Greg. Unfortunately, due to what I believe to be an accidental oversight, when the list was moved to the new server, that ban was not moved with it. The other mistake was made when that ban was not put back in place once it was realized that it had been omitted. Of course, this is all speculation, and I might be way off on my reasoning. Sincerely Aaron Cannon At 08:27 PM 5/15/2005, you wrote: >Josh wrote: > > Jim Tinsley wrote: > > >> How say the rest of you -- should we erase the graffiti? > > > Well, I think we can all agree most of the problem is one > > particular person. As someone who has been "dragged into a > > mudfight" with this person before, I know how easy it is. All of > > his negative qualities not-withstanding ... he is an amazingly good > > troll. > > > Jon, while in this instance is posting a high noise-to-signal > > ratio, has on many occasions posted some very well thoughtout and > > useful information. While some out there may disagree with how far > > he wants PG to go on the meta-data front, he has some very good > > ideas in this area and has shown a willingness to discuss > > constructively. > >As Melissa pointed out, and which was very insightful, just parsing >the name of 'gutvol-d' means it is a general discussion list for PG >volunteers. It does appear the original charter for the group is for >those who are active PG volunteers to "talk shop". That is, to talk >about how to handle issues met today in doing volunteer work for PG, >whatever it may be. (Such as "how do I do this?"). > >This probably should not include, in hindsight, some of my messages >which mostly deal with "where should PG go in the future" or the >related "how should PG change to meet new goals" type of messages. I >apologize to everyone here for not staying within the charter for >gutvol-d. > >Now Greg did start another group to discuss what I think are >"organizational/governance" issues. (The name of that group eludes me >-- it's been pretty inactive for quite a while.) I'm not sure if the >"future-oriented" ideas are intended to fit into that group -- I sort >of think not. If not, then a new group, maybe called 'gutfuture', could >be created to discuss these types of thoughts, ideas and proposals. > >Jon > >(p.s., thanks Josh.) > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) From sly at victoria.tc.ca Sun May 15 20:22:03 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Sun May 15 20:22:22 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Question regarding naming for CSS In-Reply-To: <419086060.20050515202133@noring.name> References: <20050515211817.GA694@panix.com> <20050515213926.GA29498@pglaf.org> <20050515220753.GA17403@panix.com> <419086060.20050515202133@noring.name> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2005, Jon Noring wrote: > > In some ways simply following visual presentation in the markup makes > life a whole lot easier. Yes indeed it does. I must admit that with this particular book "The Transvaal from within" I have defined a "center" class, which I have used throughout for many various header types of material. And before you get too distressed, let me say that I have already used a structured hierarchy from h1 to h5, for headers which clearly fall into certain divisions. But there are enough places where it's a puzzle to say if a certain section is a subsidiary of a previous one, or a new section of equal importance, or even something that the type-setter decided to center on a whim, that I decided a plain

would do just fine. As an aside, this volume also caught my attention for having two distinctly, and functionally different types of side-notes. Andrew From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sun May 15 20:44:24 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sun May 15 20:44:26 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050515215042.02f06c90@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> <6.2.1.2.0.20050515215042.02f06c90@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <20050516034424.GA8679@pglaf.org> On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 10:16:52PM -0500, Aaron Cannon wrote: > ... > Also, for those of you who don't remember, it's not a question of whether > or not we should ban bowerbird. That decision was already made by > Greg. Unfortunately, due to what I believe to be an accidental oversight, > when the list was moved to the new server, that ban was not moved with > it. The other mistake was made when that ban was not put back in place > once it was realized that it had been omitted. Of course, this is all > speculation, and I might be way off on my reasoning. It wasn't accidental, and I apologize that it causes so much difficulty for the many people who are unable to simply ignore (intellectually or technically) certain postings from certain people. BB was never banned - he was simply put under moderation. Putting him under moderation was my decision, made after considerable complaints and debate (sound familiar?). Removing the moderation was someone else's decision - you can guess who. Putting the whole list under moderation is viable, but only with clear moderation guidelines and at least two active moderators (active means multiple times per day). I still think modern, thinking people should just be able to ignore messages from people they don't care to hear from -- or seek technical facilities for helping them to do so. But clearly there is more call for stronger measures, which remove such responsibilities from all list subscribers and instead shunt them to a few centralized individuals. -- Greg From ke at gnu.franken.de Sun May 15 22:53:06 2005 From: ke at gnu.franken.de (Karl Eichwalder) Date: Sun May 15 22:54:27 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Who Are the Noise Makers? In-Reply-To: <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> (Jon Noring's message of "Sun, 15 May 2005 19:27:01 -0600") References: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> Message-ID: Jon Noring writes: > This probably should not include, in hindsight, some of my messages > which mostly deal with "where should PG go in the future" or the > related "how should PG change to meet new goals" type of messages. I > apologize to everyone here for not staying within the charter for > gutvol-d. Nonsense ;) Please continue to post your improvement proposal here. Neither your technical background info nor even bowerbird's articles are offending or disturbing or "noise" - all these poeple who start meta discussions are the noise markers. These noise marker must learn to accept criticisms on their work. -- http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/ | ,__o | _-\_<, | (*)/'(*) Key fingerprint = F138 B28F B7ED E0AC 1AB4 AA7F C90A 35C3 E9D0 5D1C From Bowerbird at aol.com Sun May 15 23:41:43 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sun May 15 23:42:04 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: you guys crack me up Message-ID: <80.27b96da0.2fb99aa7@aol.com> i told you jim didn't want to get smarter. you guys crack me up. :+) and fascism is alive and well in the united states in the 21st century, from the white house on down. but there is no shortage of soapboxes in cyberspace; and with google pulling everything together for people, it is more difficult to be invisible than to be found, so _try_ to relegate my free speech to your "protest zone". just try... -bowerbird From marcello at perathoner.de Mon May 16 01:30:12 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Mon May 16 01:30:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Question regarding naming for CSS In-Reply-To: References: <20050515211817.GA694@panix.com> <20050515213926.GA29498@pglaf.org> <20050515220753.GA17403@panix.com> Message-ID: <42885A14.90809@perathoner.de> Andrew Sly wrote: > Any suggestions for a more general (but still accurate) > name I could use for this CSS selector? This are TEI markup examples for your case. Maybe you can glean sensible names from those. Great Marlborough Street November 11, 1848 My dear Sir,

I am sorry to say that absence from town and other circumstances have prevented me from earlier enquiring...

perhaps you will favour me with a sight of it when convenient.

I remain, &c. &c. H. Colburn

and his heart was going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes.

Trieste-Zürich-Paris, 1914–1921
-- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From jmdyck at ibiblio.org Mon May 16 01:33:57 2005 From: jmdyck at ibiblio.org (Michael Dyck) Date: Mon May 16 01:34:28 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] organizational/governance issues References: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> Message-ID: <42885AF5.E299CDA2@ibiblio.org> Jon Noring wrote: > > Now Greg did start another group to discuss what I think are > "organizational/governance" issues. (The name of that group eludes me > -- it's been pretty inactive for quite a while.) "pg-planning" planning@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/planning "A planning discussion for changes to the PG organizational structure." http://www.gutenberg.org/events/planning.shtml Active March to May 2004, pretty much. As I recall, we didn't make much progress. Not even consensus on a PG mission statement. -Michael Dyck From marcello at perathoner.de Mon May 16 01:43:34 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Mon May 16 01:44:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: <20050516034424.GA8679@pglaf.org> References: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> <6.2.1.2.0.20050515215042.02f06c90@mail.fireantproductions.com> <20050516034424.GA8679@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <42885D36.1060508@perathoner.de> Greg Newby wrote: > Putting the whole list under moderation is viable, but only > with clear moderation guidelines and at least two active > moderators (active means multiple times per day). I think, if technically feasible, to put certain person(s) under moderation would suffice. Or even to ban them altogether. This way you don't need much moderation and one person can easily do it. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From marcello at perathoner.de Mon May 16 01:56:54 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Mon May 16 01:57:15 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: you guys crack me up In-Reply-To: <80.27b96da0.2fb99aa7@aol.com> References: <80.27b96da0.2fb99aa7@aol.com> Message-ID: <42886056.5050205@perathoner.de> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > and fascism is alive and well in the united states > in the 21st century, from the white house on down. You lose. Godwin's Law: prov. [Usenet] ?As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.? There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful. Godwin himself has discussed the subject. See also Formosa's Law. http://www.catb.org/%7Eesr/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html > but there is no shortage of soapboxes in cyberspace; > and with google pulling everything together for people, > it is more difficult to be invisible than to be found, so > _try_ to relegate my free speech to your "protest zone". How's your blog? Doesn't seem to get much traffic if you are still here. It's bad for your ego to see that nobody wants to hear you, eh? -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From shimmin at uiuc.edu Mon May 16 07:34:48 2005 From: shimmin at uiuc.edu (Robert Shimmin) Date: Mon May 16 07:34:54 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Heebee Jeebees on Gutenberg In-Reply-To: <75.454710f0.2fb6af2f@aol.com> References: <75.454710f0.2fb6af2f@aol.com> Message-ID: <4288AF88.4020308@uiuc.edu> > opticbook3600 (most other scanners will start you off wrong) After soliciting reviews of it on the DP forums and getting several positive ones, this my mixed review of the opticbook. (1) Scanning into the gutter: The opticbook's main selling point is the position of its glass. At the very edge of the device, you can open a book only 90 degrees and flatten half of it against the glass, in principle eliminating gutter shadow. In practice, though, it doesn't catch the outer half-centimeter of the glass anyway. While there are books you can scan with the opticbook that you couldn't scan with an ordinary flatbed, there are still books with gutters too narrow to do with the opticbook. (2) Book handling: With an ordinary flatbed, the book it pretty much held in place by its own weight, although you can get better results by applying some pressure from above. And you only have to reposition the book for every other page. With the opticbook, you have to turn the book every page, and, for the half of the book where the heavy side is hanging off the end, you have to hold the book in position more physically than for the usual flatbed configuration. While I have never destroyed a book with normal flatbed scanning, the second book I scanned with the opticbook did not survive the process. (To be fair, it wouldn't have survived the process with an ordinary flatbed, but with an ordinary flatbed, I would not have even tried ...) (3) Speed: this is where the optibook really shines. Even doing only one page at a time, I have reached scanning speeds of about 300 octavo pages per hour. And if you have a book where you can use the opticbook like an ordinary flatbed, scanning two pages at a time, well, I'll leave the numbers as an exercise to the reader. If you have the money and want to have another tool in your scanner arsenal, it's not a waste. But it's not a magic bullet, either. The most demanding scanning project I've done to date, the large-format illustrations in Robert Hooke's Micrographia, required using scans from both my opticbook and my HP scanjet 4600 (the thin, transparent series), follwed by about 12 hours of image manipulation, to get the results I got. Neither scanner alone could have delivered those images. -- RS From jon at noring.name Mon May 16 07:59:07 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Mon May 16 07:59:34 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Question regarding naming for CSS In-Reply-To: <42885A14.90809@perathoner.de> References: <20050515211817.GA694@panix.com> <20050515213926.GA29498@pglaf.org> <20050515220753.GA17403@panix.com> <42885A14.90809@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <1601825289.20050516085907@noring.name> Marcello wrote: > Andrew Sly wrote: >> Any suggestions for a more general (but still accurate) >> name I could use for this CSS selector? > This are TEI markup examples for your case. Maybe you can glean sensible > names from those. > > ... > >
>

> perhaps you will favour me with a sight > of it when convenient.

> > I remain, &c. &c. > H. Colburn > >
Another TEI example of handling a letter is given at: http://www.tei-c.org/P4X/DS.html#DSOC Here's the example given:
Letter XIV: Miss Clarissa Harlowe to Miss Howe Thursday evening, March 2.

On Hannah's depositing my long letter ...

An interruption obliges me to conclude myself in some hurry, as well as fright, what I must ever be,

Yours more than my own, Clarissa Harlowe
As I think about it, this can be mapped to XHTML 1.1 as

Thursday evening, March 2.

On Hannah's depositing my long letter ...

An interruption obliges me to conclude myself in some hurry, as well as fright, what I must ever be,

Yours more than my own,

Clarissa Harlowe

(I added a
into the mix, even though the TEI example does not include it. I like symmetry of divisions and makes it a little easier for interesting CSS styling (but not necessary.) Also, the in TEI is mapped to "title" in the letter-level
. If the is intended to be displayed, it would instead be placed into an XHTML

(or whatever) right below div.letter.) CSS styling then follows this standardized markup. Thanks, Marcello, I was thinking this morning how to markup letters and other types of communications using XHTML and TEI. These are commonly found in many books, so much so they deserved their own 'standardized' format (just like verse), and TEI did not let us down on this. Jon Noring From collin at xs4all.nl Mon May 16 08:52:09 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Mon May 16 09:03:13 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re:making CD / DVD best of 2005--how and which books? In-Reply-To: <4282FB3F.9010209@truthdb.org> References: <20050511190002.C9B948C8F0@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <4288DDC9.16040.640A29@localhost> On 12 May 2005, at 2:44, bill wrote: > I know this is likely not practical but I would like to see a > read-only medium where the legalese was exised out of the texts and > stored in a license.txt in the root of the file system. This would > save a ton of space and allow for more texts within the iso. An alternative is not to use the trademark "Project Gutenberg". Once you have removed the licenses, you can do what you want with most of the books. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon May 16 09:21:57 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon May 16 09:22:20 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: feedback report on the opticbook3600 Message-ID: <1f8.9ddc9df.2fba22a5@aol.com> robert said: > In practice, though, it doesn't catch > the outer half-centimeter of the glass anyway. thanks, robert, for getting that feedback from people from distributed proofreaders on the opticbook3600... the outer half-centimeter? that's cutting things very close, isn't it? :+) the point is, no other scanner does better today. > With an ordinary flatbed, the book it pretty much > held in place by its own weight, although you can get > better results by applying some pressure from above. and even when you _do_ apply some pressure from above to an ordinary flatbed, you will not get results that are as good as those you get from the opticbook3600, right? so this is the same point as above. > And you only have to reposition the book for every other page. > With the opticbook, you have to turn the book every page, and, > for the half of the book where the heavy side is hanging off the end, > you have to hold the book in position more physically than for > the usual flatbed configuration. ok, that's true. but you get a better scan. so this, too, is the same point as above. there is a problem with the software that comes with the 3600, in that it won't flip _half_ of the pages, which is what you want. you either have to flip _all_ of them, or _none_ of them, neither of which is a suitable option. so you need to do the image-flip in a separate program, after you've done the scanning. (you can also scan the odd pages in a separate pass from the even ones.) there are other shortcomings in the software; i can't remember what they are now; the hope is that they will be fixed over time. and when it comes to its hardware, the scanner shines. carlo had a web-page with a pair of scans, of the same picture, one from the opticbook3600, the other from his other scanner. the difference was quite striking. this is an excellent scanner. > If you have the money and want to have > another tool in your scanner arsenal, it's not a waste. > But it's not a magic bullet, either. whether or not it's worthwhile to buy the opticbook3600 if you already have another scanner might be questionable. depends on how much your time is worth, because you'll be spending it correcting of scannos that you wouldn't have to. for anyone setting out to buy a scanner, or wanting the best, the consensus from everyone i know is that this is the one... this is really the crux of the matter. if anyone wants to say that highly-accurate o.c.r. is not possible, the first question i would have for them is whether they're using the optic3600; if they aren't, then i would chalk up their inferior results to the use of inferior hardware, and give their claim no credence. at least one highly-experienced person that i know says that, with the opticbook3600, careful attention to the scanning, proper correction of the images, abbyy finereader v7.x, and a beta version of one of the post-o.c.r. correction-programs that will be coming out soon, he's getting excellent results, ones that are superior to what he got with previous scanners, to the point he is within sight of _approaching_ perfection. as far as i'm concerned, as i've said here many times before, an accuracy-rate of 1 error every 10 pages is "good enough" to put an e-text out to the general public for "final" proofing. i am sure we can attain, and surpass, that level of accuracy... (in the past year, i heard the first report of a person who had actually achieved perfection in the scanning of an entire book; spellcheck did find one word, but it was wrong in the original.) so even if the opticbook3600 isn't "a magic bullet" by itself, it might well be the important piece of _hardware_ within a _system_ that could be described as "a magic bullet" in toto. it is too soon to _assert_ that, especially with any certainty, but it's not too soon to consider the possibility it might be so. but even _that_ is largely beside the point, which i will state once again in closing: no other scanner does better today. again, robert, thanks for getting all that feedback! -bowerbird From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon May 16 09:24:49 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon May 16 09:24:56 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: you guys crack me up Message-ID: <14.455980ac.2fba2351@aol.com> marcello said: > You lose. > Godwin's Law: prov. i didn't mention the h-word or the n-word. you did. i talked about george w. and republicans, and the censors on this very listserve... if i wrote a book, would you burn it? -bowerbird From gbnewby at pglaf.org Mon May 16 09:33:07 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Mon May 16 09:33:09 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] organizational/governance issues In-Reply-To: <42885AF5.E299CDA2@ibiblio.org> References: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> <42885AF5.E299CDA2@ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <20050516163307.GD1372@pglaf.org> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 01:33:57AM -0700, Michael Dyck wrote: > Jon Noring wrote: > > > > Now Greg did start another group to discuss what I think are > > "organizational/governance" issues. (The name of that group eludes me > > -- it's been pretty inactive for quite a while.) > > "pg-planning" > planning@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/planning > > "A planning discussion for changes to the PG organizational structure." > http://www.gutenberg.org/events/planning.shtml > > Active March to May 2004, pretty much. > As I recall, we didn't make much progress. > Not even consensus on a PG mission statement. > > -Michael Dyck Actually, MH & I made a *lot* of progress during that time, as did many other groups & individuals. There wasn't much discussion on the pg-planning list, though. We created several new key documents in http://gutenberg.org/about and provided added clarity on various things. These documents were announced over many (like 6) months of newsletters, but never got a whole lot of response or discussion, and none that I recall on gutvol-d. -- Greg From marcello at perathoner.de Mon May 16 09:45:29 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Mon May 16 09:45:42 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] organizational/governance issues In-Reply-To: <20050516163307.GD1372@pglaf.org> References: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> <42885AF5.E299CDA2@ibiblio.org> <20050516163307.GD1372@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <4288CE29.9020304@perathoner.de> Greg Newby wrote: > We created several new key documents in > http://gutenberg.org/about > and provided added clarity on various things. These > documents were announced over many (like 6) months > of newsletters, but never got a whole lot of response > or discussion, and none that I recall on gutvol-d. I don't read the newsletter at all because its too confusing. If those documents would have been posted on this list, maybe they'd got more discussion. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From lee at novomail.net Mon May 16 10:06:52 2005 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Mon May 16 10:07:05 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Question regarding naming for CSS (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 10, Issue 25_ In-Reply-To: <20050516012725.7764C8C8E4@pglaf.org> References: <20050516012725.7764C8C8E4@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <4288D32C.2080208@novomail.net> On Sun, 15 May 2005 21:11:13 -0400, Janet Kegg wrote: > On Sun, 15 May 2005 17:50:44 -0700 (PDT), Andrew Sly wrote: > > > Ok, new topic of discussion. > > > > I'm putting the finishing touches on a book for PG. There will be > > an html file made as well as plain text. This book includes a > > decent amount of quoted letters and other documents in it. Fairly > > often, there are headers and/or footers to these which are aligned > > to be close to the right margin. > > > > So I made a simple CSS declaration for these: > > > > .dateheader {text-align: right; margin-right:2em;} > > > > However, as I progressed through, the name "dateheader" began to > > seem little inaccurate. The content is also sometimes the name of a > > place or a person, or a brief phrase. > > > > Any suggestions for a more general (but still accurate) name I > > could use for this CSS selector? > > > I suggest .alignright > > Also useful for signatures. (I actually use .ar -- I like short and > easy to type.) > > -- Janet One of the problems with marking the text with a class that describes the presentation (aside from the fact that it's not structural) is that it implies a presentation which may not actually be correct. Note that Andrew does not say that this text is to be right aligned, but "aligned to be close to the right margin." Consider the last example given (modified to be a generic block so as to not imply "paragraphness"):
HERCULES ROBINSON.
S.J.P. KRUGER.
S.J. DU TOIT.
N.J. SMIT.
In this particular case, we don't want the text to be right-aligned, we want it to be left-aligned, but shifted significantly out towards the right margin. In the pirate community I have seen these types of blocks identified as being of type "headfoot", presumably because it is primarily used for headers and footers of correspondence. I also know that TEI has an element for this type of thing (although the precise name escapes me at the moment, and I'm far to lazy to go look it up); assuming that the element name is "signature", you could use a class name, for example, of "TEI_signature", indicating that if it were a TEI element it would be the "signature" element. More important than the actual class name used is the notion that it ought to be the same as everyone else uses, so that some uniformity of naming is achieved. Myself, I'd probably opt for "headfoot", not because it's the best or most descriptive, but simply because it seems to have some currency. Now a quick word about the use of the

element. Despite what many people seem to think, the

element is _not_ a generic block element, it is to be used to indicate paragraphs. Clearly the aforementioned signature block is not a paragraph, and should not be identified as one, particulaly as there already is in common use an element designed _to be_ a generic block element:

. Personally, when I encounter a class name like "dateheader" which is obviously intended to move text near the right margin but maintain left alignment, I change the CSS definition to remove the alignment attribute, and instead add the style "margin-left:65%". This moves the block well to the right-side of the viewport, but also scales well when the window is resized. I also like my paragraphs to be indented, so my default CSS includes "p { text-indent:3em }". Now if you combine these two styles, and make the aforementioned signature block a

element, you would get something like this (imagine the whole block being moved 2/3 of the way across the page: HERCULES ROBINSON. S.J.P. KRUGER. S.J. DU TOIT. N.J. SMIT. The answer to this problem is simple: if your English professor wouldn't call it a paragraph, use the

tag instead. From gbnewby at pglaf.org Mon May 16 10:54:20 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Mon May 16 10:54:22 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] organizational/governance issues In-Reply-To: <4288CE29.9020304@perathoner.de> References: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> <42885AF5.E299CDA2@ibiblio.org> <20050516163307.GD1372@pglaf.org> <4288CE29.9020304@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <20050516175420.GA5471@pglaf.org> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 06:45:29PM +0200, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Greg Newby wrote: > > >We created several new key documents in > > http://gutenberg.org/about > >and provided added clarity on various things. These > >documents were announced over many (like 6) months > >of newsletters, but never got a whole lot of response > >or discussion, and none that I recall on gutvol-d. > > I don't read the newsletter at all because its too confusing. We've been seeking newsletter editors for a *long* time. > If those documents would have been posted on this list, maybe they'd got > more discussion. Feel free to open such a discussion. The documents are at http://gutenberg.org/about are a good starting point. There is always time for more discussion, and updated documents. -- Greg From sly at victoria.tc.ca Mon May 16 11:01:34 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Mon May 16 11:01:58 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Question regarding naming for CSS (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 10, Issue 25_ In-Reply-To: <4288D32C.2080208@novomail.net> References: <20050516012725.7764C8C8E4@pglaf.org> <4288D32C.2080208@novomail.net> Message-ID: First, a brief disclaimer. I would guess that at least 80% of the people who contribute texts with html markup to PG do not agree with choices made the majority of others who do so. So, rather than make some futile attemp to define a subset of "PG HTML" it made sense to just recomend simplicity and markup that is valid as per w3c standards. I've had to accept that despite some markup I disagree with by others, endless conversations, such as can happen here on this list, will do nothing to change it. ============== Use of a
instead of a

: Your concerns make sense. However, I believe, the last time I checked, that in xhtml 1.0 you are not allowed to have #PCData directly within a div. That is, a div is intended to delimit a section of the document, but its contents must still be in their own block-level elements. A generic

still seems to be the obvious choice in this scenario. Right-aligning a list of names: Yes, you are very observant to see that for the list of names quoted below, it is not a totally accurate realization to align its contents to the right. However, I have not found a ideal way to handle a block like this easily, and, with many other projects waiting, I would like to get this done, without spending weeks messing around with markup and styling (which is the amount of time it would take--and still end up with a less-than-idealistic result). For comparison, I have another text which I have been trying to prepare, very carefully, and precisely in regard to markup and styling, which has been stalled for over a year now, and I just feel bogged down whenever I approach it. Thanks for listening, Andrew On Mon, 16 May 2005, Lee Passey wrote: > One of the problems with marking the text with a class that describes > the presentation (aside from the fact that it's not structural) is that > it implies a presentation which may not actually be correct. Note that > Andrew does not say that this text is to be right aligned, but "aligned > to be close to the right margin." Consider the last example given > (modified to be a generic block so as to not imply "paragraphness"): > >

> HERCULES ROBINSON.
> S.J.P. KRUGER.
> S.J. DU TOIT.
> N.J. SMIT.
> > In this particular case, we don't want the text to be right-aligned, we > want it to be left-aligned, but shifted significantly out towards the > right margin. > > In the pirate community I have seen these types of blocks identified as > being of type "headfoot", presumably because it is primarily used for > headers and footers of correspondence. I also know that TEI has an > element for this type of thing (although the precise name escapes me at > the moment, and I'm far to lazy to go look it up); assuming that the > element name is "signature", you could use a class name, for example, of > "TEI_signature", indicating that if it were a TEI element it would be > the "signature" element. > > More important than the actual class name used is the notion that it > ought to be the same as everyone else uses, so that some uniformity of > naming is achieved. Myself, I'd probably opt for "headfoot", not because > it's the best or most descriptive, but simply because it seems to have > some currency. > > Now a quick word about the use of the

element. > > Despite what many people seem to think, the

element is _not_ a > generic block element, it is to be used to indicate paragraphs. Clearly > the aforementioned signature block is not a paragraph, and should not be > identified as one, particulaly as there already is in common use an > element designed _to be_ a generic block element:

. > > Personally, when I encounter a class name like "dateheader" which is > obviously intended to move text near the right margin but maintain left > alignment, I change the CSS definition to remove the alignment > attribute, and instead add the style "margin-left:65%". This moves the > block well to the right-side of the viewport, but also scales well when > the window is resized. > > I also like my paragraphs to be indented, so my default CSS includes "p > { text-indent:3em }". Now if you combine these two styles, and make the > aforementioned signature block a

element, you would get something > like this (imagine the whole block being moved 2/3 of the way across the > page: > > HERCULES ROBINSON. > S.J.P. KRUGER. > S.J. DU TOIT. > N.J. SMIT. > > The answer to this problem is simple: if your English professor wouldn't > call it a paragraph, use the

tag instead. > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Mon May 16 11:12:47 2005 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Mon May 16 11:13:05 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] An Error, eye strain, solution. In-Reply-To: <20050515003123.23F295C5C2@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050515003123.23F295C5C2@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 May 2005 20:31:23 -0400 (EDT), "rvijay07" wrote: | | I have beenr eading the E-Books as such in my browser last week. The fonts were a little extra small. Hence, after three days I endedup with red, watery and irritated eyes. Maybe I must read the E-Books by opening them in Open Office with larger fonts. Do you need VDU Glasses? http://tinyurl.com/c3lh, -- Dave Fawthrop From shimmin at uiuc.edu Mon May 16 11:26:36 2005 From: shimmin at uiuc.edu (Robert Shimmin) Date: Mon May 16 11:26:46 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: feedback report on the opticbook3600 In-Reply-To: <1f8.9ddc9df.2fba22a5@aol.com> References: <1f8.9ddc9df.2fba22a5@aol.com> Message-ID: <4288E5DC.70406@uiuc.edu> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > there is a problem with the software that comes with the 3600, > in that it won't flip _half_ of the pages, which is what you want. > you either have to flip _all_ of them, or _none_ of them, neither > of which is a suitable option. so you need to do the image-flip > in a separate program, after you've done the scanning. (you can > also scan the odd pages in a separate pass from the even ones.) I have never faced this problem, because I've never used the software that comes with the optibook. I just let Abbyy (ver. 5) drive the scanner, and with the 'Detect image orientation (during recognition)' option selected, everything comes out right-side-up. -- RS From jmdyck at ibiblio.org Mon May 16 12:15:28 2005 From: jmdyck at ibiblio.org (Michael Dyck) Date: Mon May 16 12:15:55 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] newsletter editors References: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> <42885AF5.E299CDA2@ibiblio.org> <20050516163307.GD1372@pglaf.org> <4288CE29.9020304@perathoner.de> <20050516175420.GA5471@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <4288F150.A9BF1E0C@ibiblio.org> Greg Newby wrote: > > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 06:45:29PM +0200, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > > > > I don't read the newsletter at all because its too confusing. > > We've been seeking newsletter editors for a *long* time. Given that Part 2 of the weekly newsletter is now generated automatically, and Part 1 ("Founder's Comments") is written/compiled by Michael Hart, it's unclear what a newsletter editor would *do*. Is there a job description somewhere? -Michael Dyck From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon May 16 12:25:47 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon May 16 12:26:01 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: feedback report on the opticbook3600 Message-ID: <85.27b42699.2fba4dbb@aol.com> robert said: > I have never faced this problem, > because I've never used the software > that comes with the optibook. > I just let Abbyy (ver. 5) drive the scanner right. so you're using another program to do the flipping. that was one of the options i mentioned. :+) > and with the 'Detect image orientation (during recognition)' > option selected, everything comes out right-side-up. cool. :+) i think you would think more highly of the scanner if you coupled it with version 7 of abbyy finereader. a chain is only as strong as its weakest link... -bowerbird From marcello at perathoner.de Mon May 16 12:37:32 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Mon May 16 12:37:41 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] organizational/governance issues In-Reply-To: <20050516175420.GA5471@pglaf.org> References: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> <42885AF5.E299CDA2@ibiblio.org> <20050516163307.GD1372@pglaf.org> <4288CE29.9020304@perathoner.de> <20050516175420.GA5471@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <4288F67C.8040806@perathoner.de> Greg Newby wrote: >>I don't read the newsletter at all because its too confusing. > > We've been seeking newsletter editors for a *long* time. There are 2 reasons for my not volunteering ... the other one is: I'm not a native speaker :-) > Feel free to open such a discussion. The documents > are at http://gutenberg.org/about are a good starting point. > There is always time for more discussion, and updated > documents. First lets get under moderation. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From traverso at dm.unipi.it Mon May 16 12:56:24 2005 From: traverso at dm.unipi.it (Carlo Traverso) Date: Mon May 16 12:56:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: feedback report on the opticbook3600 In-Reply-To: <1f8.9ddc9df.2fba22a5@aol.com> (Bowerbird@aol.com) References: <1f8.9ddc9df.2fba22a5@aol.com> Message-ID: <200505161956.j4GJuOZ22339@pico.dm.unipi.it> >>>>> "Bowerbird" == Bowerbird writes: Bowerbird> there is a problem with the software that comes with Bowerbird> the 3600, in that it won't flip _half_ of the pages, Bowerbird> which is what you want. you either have to flip _all_ Bowerbird> of them, or _none_ of them, neither of which is a Bowerbird> suitable option. so you need to do the image-flip in a Bowerbird> separate program, after you've done the scanning. (you Bowerbird> can also scan the odd pages in a separate pass from the Bowerbird> even ones.) Are you sure that you have really tried it? One of the options is to rotate 90 deg clockwise the odd pages and counterclockwise the even ones (or conversely, I don't remember exactly); so that if you scan one page at a time they come up correctly. or maybe mine is a more recent software version? I doubt, since I bought it one month after it was announced. Carlo From gbnewby at pglaf.org Mon May 16 14:03:37 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Mon May 16 14:03:39 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] newsletter editors In-Reply-To: <4288F150.A9BF1E0C@ibiblio.org> References: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> <42885AF5.E299CDA2@ibiblio.org> <20050516163307.GD1372@pglaf.org> <4288CE29.9020304@perathoner.de> <20050516175420.GA5471@pglaf.org> <4288F150.A9BF1E0C@ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <20050516210337.GA12822@pglaf.org> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 12:15:28PM -0700, Michael Dyck wrote: > Greg Newby wrote: > > > > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 06:45:29PM +0200, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > > > > > > I don't read the newsletter at all because its too confusing. > > > > We've been seeking newsletter editors for a *long* time. > > Given that Part 2 of the weekly newsletter is now generated > automatically, and Part 1 ("Founder's Comments") is written/compiled > by Michael Hart, it's unclear what a newsletter editor would *do*. > Is there a job description somewhere? Alice Wood used to be the newsletter editor, for a year or so. Michael picked this task up again reluctantly. The ideal scenario is for him to send in some "founder's comments" to the Part I newsletter editor, but not to do the whole thing. The main activity of the newsletter editor is to produce a weekly newsletter (also a monthly, but that's just extracted from the prior month's weeklies). The schedule is for a draft to go out on Sunday or Monday, then the newsletter to be released noon Wednesday (all US Central Time). The specific features etc. are up to the editor. We have ongoing needs for announcements, requests, etc., but the rest is open: how-tos, book reviews, quotes, interviews, events... It would also be nice to have active management of our newsletter archives, too. Qualifications include: - excellent attention to detail - proficient in written English - able to interact well via email (periodic phone calls as needed) - available during the deadline "crunch" times - proficient in "plain text" formating - interest in literary works - able to accept input & suggestions from many constituents My estimate is this would start at 6-10 hours per week. The time commitment could shrink (due to better efficiency and some automation) or grow (due to greater involvement in PG activities, and further outreach). It's feasible for there to be a team doing this, or a "main" editor plus some backup editors. Inquiries or suggestions welcome! -- Greg From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon May 16 14:38:54 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon May 16 14:39:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: feedback report on the opticbook3600 Message-ID: <204.1b793b9.2fba6cee@aol.com> carlo said: > Are you sure that you have really tried it? i haven't tried it at all. never seen one of the scanners myself. i was just posting one of the problems that i've been told about. and most people solve the problem pretty easily, just by doing the flips in another program, so it's not a show-stopper, it is just a sign that the software quality lags the hardware quality. carlo, i think d.p. should take up a collection and buy you a copy of that version of abbyy finereader specialized for older books. you are the best person there in terms of being skilled enough to make an evaluation about whether abbyy's claims stand up... -bowerbird p.s. actually, i don't know why p.g. and/or d.p. hasn't already cut a deal with abbyy to be one of their major beta-testers, but i'm the black sheep around here, nobody listens to me... From bubblegirl at optusnet.com.au Mon May 16 19:10:19 2005 From: bubblegirl at optusnet.com.au (Season BubbleGirl) Date: Mon May 16 19:10:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] newsletter editors Message-ID: <200505170209.j4H29bHb014458@mail16.syd.optusnet.com.au> Book reviews? Can I write some? Season BubbleGirl Author of A Doggy Diary and the explosive autobiography coming soon. www.bubblegirl.net - where individuality truly shines! Music Mash, puzzles, scrabble, Aussie's Playing Up, jokes, free ebooks -----Original Message----- From: "Greg Newby" Sent: 05/17/2005 6:33:37 AM To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] newsletter editors On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 12:15:28PM -0700, Michael Dyck wrote: > Greg Newby wrote: > > > > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 06:45:29PM +0200, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > > > > > > I don't read the newsletter at all because its too confusing. > > > > We've been seeking newsletter editors for a *long* time. > > Given that Part 2 of the weekly newsletter is now generated > automatically, and Part 1 ("Founder's Comments") is written/compiled > by Michael Hart, it's unclear what a newsletter editor would *do*. > Is there a job description somewhere? Alice Wood used to be the newsletter editor, for a year or so. Michael picked this task up again reluctantly. The ideal scenario is for him to send in some "founder's comments" to the Part I newsletter editor, but not to do the whole thing. The main activity of the newsletter editor is to produce a weekly newsletter (also a monthly, but that's just extracted from the prior month's weeklies). The schedule is for a draft to go out on Sunday or Monday, then the newsletter to be released noon Wednesday (all US Central Time). The specific features etc. are up to the editor. We have ongoing needs for announcements, requests, etc., but the rest is open: how-tos, book reviews, quotes, interviews, events... It would also be nice to have active management of our newsletter archives, too. Qualifications include: - excellent attention to detail - proficient in written English - able to interact well via email (periodic phone calls as needed) - available during the deadline "crunch" times - proficient in "plain text" formating - interest in literary works - able to accept input & suggestions from many constituents My estimate is this would start at 6-10 hours per week. The time commitment could shrink (due to better efficiency and some automation) or grow (due to greater involvement in PG activities, and further outreach). It's feasible for there to be a team doing this, or a "main" editor plus some backup editors. Inquiries or suggestions welcome! -- Greg _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From nwolcott at dsdial.net Mon May 16 21:30:16 2005 From: nwolcott at dsdial.net (N Wolcott) Date: Mon May 16 21:49:24 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird References: Message-ID: <020d01c55a9b$bc0e1f40$f99495ce@gw98> I really feel guilty responding to this thread. But one way to solve the problem would be to limit all posts to 200 characters or some other agreeable number, with all additional material to be in an attachment, with a similar but longer allowable content. This may put some water on the flames, as by losing visibility the flame may go out. Another tack would be to require all posts to be either a question about a volunteer work in progress or an answer to the question. Either or both of these might return the list to some of its previous utility. Some questions one might ask are 1)how long should it take to get copyrightclearance on my project? 2) Where can I find canned examples of css I can use in my book which has sidebars in it? and similar sort of stuff. We don't need to discuss the future of unicode, or the lack thereof. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Col Choat" To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 10:58 PM Subject: RE: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird > I have only TODAY resubscribed after a long absence only to find all this > rubbish still happening. Please, Jim, erase the graffiti! I am sure that I have > missed a lot of useful information and discussion, but on balance I just > couldn't stand it and it wasted a lot of my time even when I just tried to read > enough to decide whether I was reading rubbish or not. > > > Col Choat > > Heh. Remember, Michael predicted this, before the list was > formed, back in '99. Guess the rest of us were a touch too > idealistic to believe the day would come. But I think it has: > why should any real volunteer want to post here anymore, with > the threat of being dragged down into a mudfight? I never > posted here much, but it was once a pleasant neighborhood, > with valuable contributions. > > How say the rest of you -- should we erase the graffiti? > > jim > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From prosfilaes at gmail.com Mon May 16 22:04:44 2005 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Mon May 16 22:05:01 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: <020d01c55a9b$bc0e1f40$f99495ce@gw98> References: <020d01c55a9b$bc0e1f40$f99495ce@gw98> Message-ID: <6d99d1fd05051622044218b409@mail.gmail.com> On 5/16/05, N Wolcott wrote: > Another tack would be to require all posts to be either a question about a > volunteer work in progress or an answer to the question. > > Either or both of these might return the list to some of its previous > utility. > > Some questions one might ask are 1)how long should it take to get > copyrightclearance on my project? 2) Where can I find canned examples of > css I can use in my book which has sidebars in it? and similar sort of > stuff. We don't need to discuss the future of unicode, or the lack thereof. I think it important to have a list where discussions beyond 1) and 2) can be asked. We need to have a list where we can discuss the future of Unicode in PG, and things like that. It can cause extended arguments, but it can be checked politely, and those people who can't take a hint that enough is enough can be blocked. But I would really hate to limit the only place where indepth discussions on where PG is going and should be going can be held. As a sidenote, if that policy was adopted, it's likely that those still independently producing books would be left out of the loop of any such discussions, as they would be only held on DP's forums. From jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com Tue May 17 00:06:09 2005 From: jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com (Jonathan Ingram) Date: Tue May 17 00:06:29 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050517070609.31916.qmail@web33005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- David Starner wrote: > On 5/16/05, N Wolcott wrote: > > Another tack would be to require all posts to be either a question about a > > volunteer work in progress or an answer to the question. > > > > Either or both of these might return the list to some of its previous > > utility. > > > > Some questions one might ask are 1)how long should it take to get > > copyrightclearance on my project? 2) Where can I find canned examples of > > css I can use in my book which has sidebars in it? and similar sort of > > stuff. We don't need to discuss the future of unicode, or the lack thereof. > > I think it important to have a list where discussions beyond 1) and 2) > can be asked. We need to have a list where we can discuss the future > of Unicode in PG, and things like that. It can cause extended > arguments, but it can be checked politely, and those people who can't > take a hint that enough is enough can be blocked. But I would really > hate to limit the only place where indepth discussions on where PG is > going and should be going can be held. I've seen very little productive discussion on this site in the time I've been signed up to it. In contrast, the DP forums are very active, and have seen a wide range of interesting (and in general polite) discussion on the future of DP material. Those of you who are not yet signed up to DP should come over and browse our archives. -- Jon Ingram __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tb at baechler.net Tue May 17 00:15:49 2005 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Tue May 17 00:15:07 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] newsletter editors In-Reply-To: <4288F150.A9BF1E0C@ibiblio.org> References: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> <42885AF5.E299CDA2@ibiblio.org> <20050516163307.GD1372@pglaf.org> <4288CE29.9020304@perathoner.de> <20050516175420.GA5471@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050517001045.02b7e6d0@baechler.net> Hi. Michael Hart is requesting people to fill in for him to do part one. My understanding is that he wants someone to take it over entirely. Personally, I miss the former portion done by Alice Wood. I would still be interested in editing this part of the newsletter, but people stopped responding to my email. I was in communication with Greg, Michael and a few others but I was never told what I was supposed to do or how. I gathered that I was supposed to draft something, but I was never told just how this would be sent to the list or if I was allowed to post to the newsletter list. I almost never read part one now either because it isn't organized well and is mostly a boiler plate of the same thing in every weekly issue. I would like to informally interview DP people, posters, book producers, etc on a weekly or monthly basis. Nothing fancy, just something less formal than a full interview. Hopefully some clear guidelines can be given to me to work out something like this. I think there is still room for more from the PG newsletter if it is done and organized correctly. At 12:15 PM 5/16/2005 -0700, you wrote: >Given that Part 2 of the weekly newsletter is now generated >automatically, and Part 1 ("Founder's Comments") is written/compiled >by Michael Hart, it's unclear what a newsletter editor would *do*. >Is there a job description somewhere? From rvijay07 at myway.com Tue May 17 03:47:57 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Tue May 17 03:48:22 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Another Collection Message-ID: <20050517104757.D84DB5C532@mprdmxin.myway.com> >From the site: It is my desire that any and all of the files on this site receive the widest dissemination possible on a non-commercial, non-profit basis. Linking and copying via the Web is allowed and encouraged, as long as no changes are made. It would be appreciated if JRBooksOnline.com were cited as the source for material originating at this site. http://www.jrbooksonline.com/ _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From mattsen at arvig.net Tue May 17 04:30:46 2005 From: mattsen at arvig.net (Chuck MATTSEN) Date: Tue May 17 04:31:14 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Another Collection In-Reply-To: <20050517104757.D84DB5C532@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050517104757.D84DB5C532@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <20050517063046.2144aa5f@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 17 May 2005 06:47:57 -0400 (EDT) "rvijay07" typed: > >From the site: > It is my desire that any and all of the files on this site receive > the widest dissemination possible on a non-commercial, non-profit > basis. Linking and copying via the Web is allowed and encouraged, as > long as no changes are made. It would be appreciated if > JRBooksOnline.com were cited as the source for material originating > at this site. > > http://www.jrbooksonline.com/ A great site, I suppose, if one is looking for examples of Nazi/white supremacist propaganda for study; otherwise, it's a big PASS. -- Chuck MATTSEN / mattsen at arvig dot net / Mahnomen, MN, USA MT Lookup: http://eot.com/~mattsen/mtsearch.htm Mandriva Linux release 2006.0 (Cooker) for i586 kernel 2.6.11-8mdk-i686-up-4GB / RLU #346519 Random Thought/Quote For This Message: Respect must be earned, not commanded. From jhowse at nf.sympatico.ca Tue May 17 09:05:42 2005 From: jhowse at nf.sympatico.ca (JHowse) Date: Tue May 17 04:35:59 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Another Collection In-Reply-To: <20050517104757.D84DB5C532@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050517090408.053f0ae0@pop1.nf.sympatico.ca> At 06:47 AM 17/05/05 -0400, you wrote: > >From the site: >It is my desire that any and all of the files on this site receive the >widest dissemination possible on a non-commercial, non-profit >basis. Linking and copying via the Web is allowed and encouraged, as long >as no changes are made. It would be appreciated if JRBooksOnline.com were >cited as the source for material originating at this site. > > http://www.jrbooksonline.com/ not a site I'd want to be connected to though. JH ================================================================================ "I'm not likely to write a great novel or compose a song or save a baby from a burning building...but I can help make sure that there is an electronic library of free knowledge available for future people to access."--jhutch. Preserving History One Page at a Time!! Celebrating our 6750th book posted to Project Gutenberg Join Project Gutenberg's Distributed Proofreaders http://www.pgdp.net/c/ ================================================================================ From rvijay07 at myway.com Tue May 17 05:08:49 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Tue May 17 05:08:53 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Another Collection Message-ID: <20050517120849.9E9AF5C570@mprdmxin.myway.com> I believe that PG has started a trend. There is if I can say an explosion of sites with all different varieties of collections of ebooks/etexts. There is so much out there, is expected to exponentially grow and lead to information explosion (infact this is already happening). Discussions, opinions here are helpful in selecting the good ones and ignoring the rest. Vijay --- On Tue 05/17, Chuck MATTSEN < mattsen@arvig.net > wrote: From: Chuck MATTSEN [mailto: mattsen@arvig.net] To: rvijay07@myway.com, gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 06:30:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Another Collection On Tue, 17 May 2005 06:47:57 -0400 (EDT)
"rvijay07" typed:

> >From the site:
> It is my desire that any and all of the files on this site receive
> the widest dissemination possible on a non-commercial, non-profit
> basis. Linking and copying via the Web is allowed and encouraged, as
> long as no changes are made. It would be appreciated if
> JRBooksOnline.com were cited as the source for material originating
> at this site.
>
> http://www.jrbooksonline.com/

A great site, I suppose, if one is looking for examples of Nazi/white
supremacist propaganda for study; otherwise, it's a big PASS.

--
Chuck MATTSEN / mattsen at arvig dot net / Mahnomen, MN, USA
MT Lookup: http://eot.com/~mattsen/mtsearch.htm
Mandriva Linux release 2006.0 (Cooker) for i586
kernel 2.6.11-8mdk-i686-up-4GB / RLU #346519

Random Thought/Quote For This Message:
Respect must be earned, not commanded.
_______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From joshua at hutchinson.net Tue May 17 05:14:38 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Tue May 17 05:14:40 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird Message-ID: <20050517121438.E51494F468@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Starner" > > I think it important to have a list where discussions beyond 1) and 2) > can be asked. We need to have a list where we can discuss the future > of Unicode in PG, and things like that. It can cause extended > arguments, but it can be checked politely, and those people who can't > take a hint that enough is enough can be blocked. But I would really > hate to limit the only place where indepth discussions on where PG is > going and should be going can be held. > I agree wholeheartedly with David. The topics under discussion have almost never been the problem. It is the person(s) involved in the discussions that has been the problem. Remove the problem, not the discussions. And we do need to have a wide range of topics. For instance, I'm working on TEI, which I think is of vital importance to the future of PG (some may disagree). Discussions of TEI lead naturally into discussions of Unicode, graphic image formats, CSS, and other markup formats. Josh From erinm at mwt.net Tue May 17 06:25:16 2005 From: erinm at mwt.net (Erin M) Date: Tue May 17 06:23:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] newsletter editors In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050517001045.02b7e6d0@baechler.net> References: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> <42885AF5.E299CDA2@ibiblio.org> <20050516163307.GD1372@pglaf.org> <4288CE29.9020304@perathoner.de> <20050516175420.GA5471@pglaf.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20050517001045.02b7e6d0@baechler.net> Message-ID: <4289F0BC.8060508@mwt.net> Tony, I just sent a draft to Michael for the newsletter yesterday. A little reorganization, cleaning up mostly. But I like your ideas. Perhaps a team is the answer... Anyway, I too lack the responses to know what all to do. But I think Michael is just after some rough drafts to get an idea if the volunteer volunteering can actually do the job before handing it over. So send him something. Forgive the possible double posting of both you and the list. But my posts don't seem to go through to the list in most of the time.-erin Tony Baechler wrote: > Hi. Michael Hart is requesting people to fill in for him to do part > one. My understanding is that he wants someone to take it over > entirely. Personally, I miss the former portion done by Alice Wood. > I would still be interested in editing this part of the newsletter, > but people stopped responding to my email. I was in communication > with Greg, Michael and a few others but I was never told what I was > supposed to do or how. I gathered that I was supposed to draft > something, but I was never told just how this would be sent to the > list or if I was allowed to post to the newsletter list. I almost > never read part one now either because it isn't organized well and is > mostly a boiler plate of the same thing in every weekly issue. I > would like to informally interview DP people, posters, book producers, > etc on a weekly or monthly basis. Nothing fancy, just something less > formal than a full interview. Hopefully some clear guidelines can be > given to me to work out something like this. I think there is still > room for more from the PG newsletter if it is done and organized > correctly. > > At 12:15 PM 5/16/2005 -0700, you wrote: > >> Given that Part 2 of the weekly newsletter is now generated >> automatically, and Part 1 ("Founder's Comments") is written/compiled >> by Michael Hart, it's unclear what a newsletter editor would *do*. >> Is there a job description somewhere? > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > From jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com Tue May 17 09:44:47 2005 From: jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com (Jonathan Ingram) Date: Tue May 17 09:44:54 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050517164447.94225.qmail@web33004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Joshua Hutchinson wrote: > ... snip ... > > I agree wholeheartedly with David. The topics under discussion have almost > never been the problem. It is the person(s) involved in the discussions that > has been the problem. Remove the problem, not the discussions. > > And we do need to have a wide range of topics. For instance, I'm working on > TEI, which I think is of vital importance to the future of PG (some may > disagree). Discussions of TEI lead naturally into discussions of Unicode, > graphic image formats, CSS, and other markup formats. There are quite a few of us who would find it interesting to talk about these topics on gutvol-d if we knew that it wouldn't descend into pointless mudslinging within a day. I personally know of at least five DP volunteers who no longer follow gutvol-d because of the tone of recent posts. -- Jon Ingram __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From hart at pglaf.org Tue May 17 09:58:58 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Tue May 17 09:58:59 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] newsletter editors In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050517001045.02b7e6d0@baechler.net> References: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> <42885AF5.E299CDA2@ibiblio.org> <20050516163307.GD1372@pglaf.org> <4288CE29.9020304@perathoner.de> <20050516175420.GA5471@pglaf.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20050517001045.02b7e6d0@baechler.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005, Tony Baechler wrote: > Hi. Michael Hart is requesting people to fill in for him to do part one. My > understanding is that he wants someone to take it over entirely. Personally, > I miss the former portion done by Alice Wood. I would still be interested in > editing this part of the newsletter, but people stopped responding to my > email. I was in communication with Greg, Michael and a few others but I was > never told what I was supposed to do or how. I gathered that I was supposed > to draft something, but I was never told just how this would be sent to the > list or if I was allowed to post to the newsletter list. I almost never read > part one now either because it isn't organized well and is mostly a boiler > plate of the same thing in every weekly issue. I would like to informally > interview DP people, posters, book producers, etc on a weekly or monthly > basis. Nothing fancy, just something less formal than a full interview. > Hopefully some clear guidelines can be given to me to work out something like > this. I think there is still room for more from the PG newsletter if it is > done and organized correctly. > > At 12:15 PM 5/16/2005 -0700, you wrote: >> Given that Part 2 of the weekly newsletter is now generated >> automatically, and Part 1 ("Founder's Comments") is written/compiled >> by Michael Hart, it's unclear what a newsletter editor would *do*. >> Is there a job description somewhere? We don't have a set of rules for how an editor should write newsletters, each editor, including Alice, George, Greg, and Michael, has simply done the newsletters as they think best. You are encouraged to write in any manner you like, and to keep writing even when there are others writing, no need for only one way of doing things. Michael From hart at pglaf.org Tue May 17 09:59:24 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Tue May 17 09:59:25 2005 Subject: PT2 Re: [gutvol-d] newsletter editors In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050517001045.02b7e6d0@baechler.net> References: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> <42885AF5.E299CDA2@ibiblio.org> <20050516163307.GD1372@pglaf.org> <4288CE29.9020304@perathoner.de> <20050516175420.GA5471@pglaf.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20050517001045.02b7e6d0@baechler.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005, Tony Baechler wrote: > Hi. Michael Hart is requesting people to fill in for him to do part one. My > understanding is that he wants someone to take it over entirely. Personally, > I miss the former portion done by Alice Wood. I would still be interested in > editing this part of the newsletter, but people stopped responding to my > email. I was in communication with Greg, Michael and a few others but I was > never told what I was supposed to do or how. I gathered that I was supposed > to draft something, but I was never told just how this would be sent to the > list or if I was allowed to post to the newsletter list. I almost never read > part one now either because it isn't organized well and is mostly a boiler > plate of the same thing in every weekly issue. I would like to informally > interview DP people, posters, book producers, etc on a weekly or monthly > basis. Nothing fancy, just something less formal than a full interview. > Hopefully some clear guidelines can be given to me to work out something like > this. I think there is still room for more from the PG newsletter if it is > done and organized correctly. As for the organization of PT1, the complaints are self-defeating: if it is really mostly boilerplate, then the organization is obvious to anyone who had read it before, not to mention a table of contents. The portions that change the most from week to week are also obvious, and thus whether it is your desire to only read the parts that change, or to only read the weekly review of new eBooks, it is quite simple, you know where to look. Michael From lee at novomail.net Tue May 17 10:17:37 2005 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Tue May 17 10:17:47 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: gutvol-d Digest, Vol 10, Issue 28 In-Reply-To: <20050516190013.1550E8C8EF@pglaf.org> References: <20050516190013.1550E8C8EF@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <428A2731.70906@novomail.net> On Mon, 16 May 2005 11:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Andrew Sly wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2005, Lee Passey wrote: > > > One of the problems with marking the text with a class that > > describes the presentation (aside from the fact that it's not > > structural) is that it implies a presentation which may not > > actually be correct. Note that Andrew does not say that this text > > is to be right aligned, but "aligned to be close to the right > > margin." Consider the last example given (modified to be a generic > > block so as to not imply "paragraphness"): > > > >
> HERCULES ROBINSON.
>> S.J.P. KRUGER.
>> S.J. DU TOIT.
>> N.J. SMIT.
> > > > In this particular case, we don't want the text to be > > right-aligned, we want it to be left-aligned, but shifted > > significantly out towards the right margin. > > > > In the pirate community I have seen these types of blocks > > identified as being of type "headfoot", presumably because it is > > primarily used for headers and footers of correspondence. I also > > know that TEI has an element for this type of thing (although the > > precise name escapes me at the moment, and I'm far to lazy to go > > look it up); assuming that the element name is "signature", you > > could use a class name, for example, of "TEI_signature", indicating > > that if it were a TEI element it would be the "signature" element. > > > > More important than the actual class name used is the notion that > > it ought to be the same as everyone else uses, so that some > > uniformity of naming is achieved. Myself, I'd probably opt for > > "headfoot", not because it's the best or most descriptive, but > > simply because it seems to have some currency. > > > > Now a quick word about the use of the

element. > > > > Despite what many people seem to think, the

element is _not_ a > > generic block element, it is to be used to indicate paragraphs. > > Clearly the aforementioned signature block is not a paragraph, and > > should not be identified as one, particulaly as there already is in > > common use an element designed _to be_ a generic block element: > >

. > > > > Personally, when I encounter a class name like "dateheader" which > > is obviously intended to move text near the right margin but > > maintain left alignment, I change the CSS definition to remove the > > alignment attribute, and instead add the style "margin-left:65%". > > This moves the block well to the right-side of the viewport, but > > also scales well when the window is resized. > > > > I also like my paragraphs to be indented, so my default CSS > > includes "p { text-indent:3em }". Now if you combine these two > > styles, and make the aforementioned signature block a

element, > > you would get something like this (imagine the whole block being > > moved 2/3 of the way across the page: > > > > HERCULES ROBINSON. S.J.P. KRUGER. S.J. DU TOIT. N.J. SMIT. > > > > The answer to this problem is simple: if your English professor > > wouldn't call it a paragraph, use the

tag instead. > > First, a brief disclaimer. > > I would guess that at least 80% of the people who contribute texts > with html markup to PG do not agree with choices made the majority of > others who do so. > > So, rather than make some futile attemp to define a subset of "PG > HTML" it made sense to just recomend simplicity and markup that is > valid as per w3c standards. > > I've had to accept that despite some markup I disagree with by > others, endless conversations, such as can happen here on this list, > will do nothing to change it. Yes, but by the very nature of your original question, you have demonstrated that you are not one of those who have an irrational commitment to a particular syntax. You wanted to know if there was a better class name than "dateheader" for your particular usage. I quite liked Marcello's suggestion to make it TEI-like, which would be (using his example):
Great Marlborough Street
November 11, 1848
My dear Sir,
This may be a little more complex than you want to use, so you could just substitute "TEI_opener" for "dateheader" when it appears before the block, and "TEI_closer" when it appears after the block. For a list of correspondences between XHTML and TEI that I have been developing (it is clearly not complete) see http://www.passkeysoft.com/~lee/tei2xhtml.html. > ============== > > > Use of a
instead of a

: > > Your concerns make sense. However, I believe, the last time I > checked, that in xhtml 1.0 you are not allowed to have #PCData > directly within a div. That is, a div is intended to delimit a > section of the document, but its contents must still be in their own > block-level elements. A generic

still seems to be the obvious > choice in this scenario. This didn't seem right to me so I went out to W3C.org and checked out the XHTML 1.1 DTD. In fact,

can contain any %flow element, which includes just about everything -- including #PCDATA. You may have been confused by the changes to the element which now can contain only %block elements. I stick to my original suggestion that

should only be used for paragraphs, and

should be used for any other generic block-level element for which some other element is not appropriate. > Right-aligning a list of names: > > Yes, you are very observant to see that for the list of names quoted > below, it is not a totally accurate realization to align its contents > to the right. However, I have not found a ideal way to handle a block > like this easily, and, with many other projects waiting, I would like > to get this done, without spending weeks messing around with markup > and styling (which is the amount of time it would take--and still end > up with a less-than-idealistic result). Have you tried not using the "text-align:right" attribute, and using the "margin-left:65%" attribute instead? I think you'll find it's exactly what you're looking for. > For comparison, I have another text which I have been trying to > prepare, very carefully, and precisely in regard to markup and > styling, which has been stalled for over a year now, and I just feel > bogged down whenever I approach it. I feel your pain :-). I'm nowhere near an expert on styling, so when I encounter a problem like this I try to mark up the text with as much structural precision as possible (using
and ) and then just hope that someone else will come along and figure out the presentation. > Thanks for listening, > Andrew From joseph.gruber at gmail.com Tue May 17 11:04:08 2005 From: joseph.gruber at gmail.com (Joseph R. Gruber) Date: Tue May 17 11:04:16 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: <20050517164447.94225.qmail@web33004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050517164447.94225.qmail@web33004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Why not create PG forums? On 5/17/05, Jonathan Ingram wrote: > > > --- Joshua Hutchinson wrote: > > ... snip ... > > > > I agree wholeheartedly with David. The topics under discussion have > almost > > never been the problem. It is the person(s) involved in the discussions > that > > has been the problem. Remove the problem, not the discussions. > > > > And we do need to have a wide range of topics. For instance, I'm working > on > > TEI, which I think is of vital importance to the future of PG (some may > > disagree). Discussions of TEI lead naturally into discussions of > Unicode, > > graphic image formats, CSS, and other markup formats. > > There are quite a few of us who would find it interesting to talk about > these > topics on gutvol-d if we knew that it wouldn't descend into pointless > mudslinging within a day. I personally know of at least five DP volunteers > who > no longer follow gutvol-d because of the tone of recent posts. > > -- > Jon Ingram > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail Mobile > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > -- Joseph R. Gruber joseph.gruber@gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050517/6fff1628/attachment.html From joshua at hutchinson.net Tue May 17 11:06:36 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Tue May 17 11:06:43 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird Message-ID: <20050517180636.700689E91D@ws6-2.us4.outblaze.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph R. Gruber" > > Why not create PG forums? > I second that. Forums are nice both for easier moderation and easier checking of old topics. If I forget where I put a message from a Listserve, it is a pain in the patoot to find that information again. Josh From jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com Tue May 17 11:36:53 2005 From: jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com (Jonathan Ingram) Date: Tue May 17 11:37:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050517183653.29215.qmail@web33006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Joseph R. Gruber" wrote: > Why not create PG forums? We just tend to use the DP forums... you're welcome to come and join us :). -- Jon Ingram __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue May 17 11:49:44 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Tue May 17 11:49:55 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird Message-ID: jon said: > We just tend to use the DP forums... > you're welcome to come and join us :). jon, meet joe gruber. joe, since you're a regular over at d.p., i assume you already know jon ingram. -bowerbird From jon at noring.name Tue May 17 11:50:04 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Tue May 17 11:50:17 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and prposed future-tech-developments group/forum (was "Dear Jon") In-Reply-To: <20050517164447.94225.qmail@web33004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: 6667 <20050517164447.94225.qmail@web33004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <385311089.20050517125004@noring.name> Jon Ingram wrote: > Joshua Hutchinson wrote: >> ... For instance, I'm working on TEI, which I think is of vital >> importance to the future of PG (some may disagree). Discussions of >> TEI lead naturally into discussions of Unicode, graphic image >> formats, CSS, and other markup formats. > There are quite a few of us who would find it interesting to talk > about these topics on gutvol-d if we knew that it wouldn't descend > into pointless mudslinging within a day. Two issues brought up in the above comments: 1) PGTEI -- I agree with Josh about the vital importance of PGTEI to the future of PG, DP, and other similar structured digital text projects. As far as I am concerned, this is the core technology for the future of public domain text digitization. From my fairly coarse (not detailed) look at the PGTEI 0.3, I am quite impressed -- and excited -- with how it is progressing. Btw Josh, has any "formal" working group been put together to continue with PGTEI development? Or is it mostly Marcello and you? Is there a dedicated PGTEI mailing list or forum anywhere? 2) Where can we discuss topics of a future-technical-development nature, of which PGTEI is one of them? As I noted in a prior reply (a sort of "hindsight is 20-20" message), I think that discussion of such fairly technical and futuristic topics should NOT be done on gutvol-d, which I think needs to be reserved for "talking shop" and "general help" topics by PG's volunteers -- to discuss the "here and now" of PG's activities. I've been perusing (catching up on) the various forums at DP's site and it does not appear there's a forum which would be a good match for PGTEI and other future-tech-development topics. There is the DP forum "Future Features", but this appears dedicated primarily to suggesting and discussing new features of the DP system, so it has a more general, and more proofing-level focus. Topics such as PGTEI are more "under-the-hood" and fundamental in nature. So, assuming enough others agree with my assessment, where should the future-tech-development group/forum be placed (at lists.pglaf.org or as a DP forum), and what to call it? ***** Now to discuss a somewhat related point, and one I probably need to post to the appropriate DP forum since it is about the DP forums. But I'll mention it here as well since it is germane to any discussion of where to host a proposed group/forum. DP's forum system has a lot of good features, but it also has problems that I think inhibit participation by some people (including yours truly). Because many of us have to monitor a large number of groups/ forums/blogs all over the Internet, we prefer to have all new updates centralized and sent to us. Mailing lists are excellent in that any new messages are sent to us via email, which we process in one place in our email client, and which we can save offline in the format of our choice (e.g., I subscribe to 50+ mailing lists/groups, and I don't have to visit 50 different sites with 50 different interfaces to look for any updates.) Also, RSS syndication has become the rage for the same reason -- it is a very convenient way for end-users to be keep updated on new community content (such as blogs and DP-like community forums) without having to laboriously visit a large number of sites, each of which has their own way of organizing the community content. Thus, I hope that the DP forums will implement an RSS feed for each of its forums, for those of us who wish to keep updated on discussion. (It does appear possible to add RSS feeds to phpbb, at least from a cursory Google search I just did.) Jon Noring From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue May 17 12:17:46 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Tue May 17 12:18:01 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] no, the problem is Message-ID: <1ff.1c812c3.2fbb9d5a@aol.com> josh said: > the problem is no, the problem is that you are rabidly intolerant of anyone who disagrees with your basic premises, especially if they can muster arguments cogently, and you will stoop to character assassination and full-blown censorship and all types of ugly tactics to avoid having the clothes of your emperor exposed. _that's_ the problem. your self-concept is wrapped up in doing e-books, and you take criticism personally, and very badly, and turn with a vengeance on anyone who gives it. and here's a wrap-up of the arguments that i make: a. the x.m.l. approach is full of implementation holes. b. when those holes are filled, it'll be overly complex. c. the complexity will drive away scads of volunteers. d. it will also make library-maintenance a nightmare. e. x.s.l.t. conversions are largely vaporware at present. f. even after they move out of vapor, they'll be plagued. g. trailing-edge users will get nosed out in the process. h. resultant confusions will drive away more volunteers. i. few of the benefits x.m.l. promises will materialize. j. the benefits won't come close to justifying the costs. k. somebody will have to come in and pick up the pieces. l. much simpler methodologies will actually work better. m. the workflows of the past don't scale to the present. n. some volunteers have worked themselves to burn-out. o. that burn-out now makes them incapable of reflection. p. without reflective thought, the project is floundering. q. floundering is the worst thing that can happen _now_. r. google, toronto, and million-books make e-books fly. s. all the errors in the library need to be fixed right now. t. the energy and resources of new people is not nurtured. u. we can use the help of end-users in attaining our goals. v. we need to make all end-users feel a part of the project. w. people question the past without knowing their history. x. a trailing-edge focus is the reason for the success of p.g. y. the viewer-program is the most important puzzle-piece. z. rabid intolerance retards progress, and mean people suck. i'm often scapegoated as "the problem" here, but the truth is that before i came, and every time i go away -- whether it's by my own volition or as a consequence of being "moderated" -- this listserve largely withers into a mass of nothingness. in an attempt to "avoid the troll", other p.g. listserves were set up that excluded me or which i had no interest in joining, and those listserves have -- without exception -- faded away. one of the only things that unites people here is picking on me. (indeed, the only other one coming to mind is picking on pg2, and even that one didn't produce _nearly_ as much unanimity.) i say things that you don't want to hear. i say them because they are things that you _need_ to hear. i am your wake-up call, and you dearly want to keep sleeping. "moderating" me will not work, because it is of no consequence to me that you do not want to hear what i say. i say it anyway. so if your refusal to hear it persists, you will have to ban me. but even if you ban me, i will not be quiet. because the world needs to know that you people -- who should be "the experts" -- don't know what you're talking about, and they need to know that you cannot deliver on all your promises. so i will tell the world. i tried to straighten you out here, in the privacy of your own listserve, but if you won't hear my message here, i will make it public instead, so its amplification via the public makes it audible to you regardless... so you pick your poison, private or public, it makes no difference to me. indeed, it'll waste much less of my time to go the public route instead... you're not doing me any favor, at all, by "allowing" me to stay here. i'm doing you the favor by being here. i've got better things to do... -bowerbird From marcello at perathoner.de Tue May 17 12:41:05 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue May 17 12:41:16 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and prposed future-tech-developments group/forum (was "Dear Jon") In-Reply-To: <385311089.20050517125004@noring.name> References: 6667 <20050517164447.94225.qmail@web33004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <385311089.20050517125004@noring.name> Message-ID: <428A48D1.5050207@perathoner.de> Jon Noring wrote: > Btw Josh, has any "formal" working group been put together to > continue with PGTEI development? Or is it mostly Marcello and you? > Is there a dedicated PGTEI mailing list or forum anywhere? No. But we will consider input from anybody. > 2) Where can we discuss topics of a future-technical-development > nature, of which PGTEI is one of them? > > As I noted in a prior reply (a sort of "hindsight is 20-20" message), > I think that discussion of such fairly technical and futuristic > topics should NOT be done on gutvol-d, which I think needs to be > reserved for "talking shop" and "general help" topics by PG's > volunteers -- to discuss the "here and now" of PG's activities. gutvol-p (provided is put under moderation) > Thus, I hope that the DP forums will implement an RSS feed for each > of its forums, for those of us who wish to keep updated on discussion. > (It does appear possible to add RSS feeds to phpbb, at least from a > cursory Google search I just did.) I second that. I'm not a regular DP forum member because I hate the software. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From marcello at perathoner.de Tue May 17 13:03:53 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue May 17 13:04:04 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] no, the problem is In-Reply-To: <1ff.1c812c3.2fbb9d5a@aol.com> References: <1ff.1c812c3.2fbb9d5a@aol.com> Message-ID: <428A4E29.1090204@perathoner.de> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > one of the only things that unites people here is picking on me. Not only here. > i say things that you don't want to hear. Very true. > it is of no consequence > to me that you do not want to hear what i say. You already gave us ample proof of that. > but if you won't hear my message here, i will make it public instead, > so its amplification via the public makes it audible to you regardless... Yeah. Like the blog you set up at: http://journals.aol.com/bowerbird/bowerbirdseyeview/ and that got 87 hits since its creation on November 12, 2004. > you're not doing me any favor, at all, by "allowing" me to stay here. > i'm doing you the favor by being here. i've got better things to do... Like getting some traffic to your blog? -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From distributedmel at gmail.com Tue May 17 13:09:16 2005 From: distributedmel at gmail.com (Melissa Er-Raqabi) Date: Tue May 17 13:09:24 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] no, the problem is In-Reply-To: <428A4E29.1090204@perathoner.de> References: <1ff.1c812c3.2fbb9d5a@aol.com> <428A4E29.1090204@perathoner.de> Message-ID: Last time he went away from the DP forums, he threatedned to tell the world the truth about DP--is that the one? Is it worth going to read, Marcello? Mel > > Yeah. Like the blog you set up at: > > http://journals.aol.com/bowerbird/bowerbirdseyeview/ > > and that got 87 hits since its creation on November 12, 2004. From joshua at hutchinson.net Tue May 17 13:19:41 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Tue May 17 13:19:49 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and prposed future-tech-developments group/forum (was "Dear Message-ID: <20050517201941.635C02F9C3@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Noring" > > Jon Ingram wrote: > > Joshua Hutchinson wrote: > > > 1) Btw Josh, has any "formal" working group been put together to > continue with PGTEI development? Or is it mostly Marcello and you? > Is there a dedicated PGTEI mailing list or forum anywhere? > Formal only in the sense that I bug Marcello mercilessly with reports (though I've laid off him recently). In the meantime, anyone that *wants* in on things can message me backline. I've got lots of stuff up on a server that I can point you to for testing/comments. Quick-n-Dirty update: TEI -> Text: working on how we want to deal with unicode characters. Otherwise, pretty much ready for public comment. TEI -> HTML: little things keep showing up, ie, support for overline styles need to be added, the XML header causes IE to enter "quirks" mode which can create some strangeness in rendering, svg is converted to png instead of passing the SVG directly to the browser for rendering (this may need to stay this way because of non-universal SVG support in browsers). Almost ready to open a call for CSS contributions to create a PG standard style. I hope to have a few alternate styles available at launch, too. TEI -> PDF: this one has the most "weirdness" PDF tables are just a large pain in the patoot. They require special massaging that the other two formats don't need. SVG is again converted to PNG and inserted into the PDF instead of a vector based insert which would scale better (I think this is what is happening ... need to check with Marcello on this one). The overline style doesn't work here either. I'm holding off major movement on PGTEI until the new DP version rollout is done. Some of the minds I want to tap most are going to be busy dealing with new DP fun. > I've been perusing (catching up on) the various forums at DP's site > and it does not appear there's a forum which would be a good match for > PGTEI and other future-tech-development topics. I'd say Future Features for now. After the DP rollout, I may beg the powers-that-be for a new forum topic for TEI. Josh (aka JHutch on the DP Forums) From marcello at perathoner.de Tue May 17 13:20:01 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue May 17 13:20:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] no, the problem is In-Reply-To: References: <1ff.1c812c3.2fbb9d5a@aol.com> <428A4E29.1090204@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <428A51F1.40307@perathoner.de> Melissa Er-Raqabi wrote: > Last time he went away from the DP forums, he threatedned to tell the > world the truth about DP--is that the one? > > Is it worth going to read, Marcello? No. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From jon at noring.name Tue May 17 13:27:44 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Tue May 17 13:27:58 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and prposed future-tech-developments group/forum (was "Dear Jon") In-Reply-To: <428A48D1.5050207@perathoner.de> References: 6667 <20050517164447.94225.qmail@web33004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <385311089.20050517125004@noring.name> <428A48D1.5050207@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <1192266075.20050517142744@noring.name> Marcello wrote: > Jon Noring wrote: >> Btw Josh, has any "formal" working group been put together to >> continue with PGTEI development? Or is it mostly Marcello and you? >> Is there a dedicated PGTEI mailing list or forum anywhere? > No. But we will consider input from anybody. Where again is the site hosting the latest PGTEI documents (and DTD if one has been put together)? (This request is not only for me, but for others interested in PGTEI.) I also invite an announcement of the latest PGTEI draft version to The eBook Community ('ebook-community') and 'xml-ebook', both at YahooGroups. >> Thus, I hope that the DP forums will implement an RSS feed for each >> of its forums, for those of us who wish to keep updated on discussion. >> (It does appear possible to add RSS feeds to phpbb, at least from a >> cursory Google search I just did.) > I second that. I'm not a regular DP forum member because I hate the > software. Well, I guess I'm not the only one. I just posted a similar "plea" on DP's 'General' forum asking for RSS syndication of their forums, and Jon Ingram immediately replied in support. So that's three of us... DP is definitely fast moving and very active (which is not seen if one only monitors gutvol-*), and RSS syndication of its several forums will benefit a lot of people who will be able to more easily keep abreast of new developments. Jon Noring From shimmin at uiuc.edu Tue May 17 13:35:04 2005 From: shimmin at uiuc.edu (Robert Shimmin) Date: Tue May 17 13:35:14 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and prposed future-tech-developments group/forum (was "Dear In-Reply-To: <20050517201941.635C02F9C3@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20050517201941.635C02F9C3@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <428A5578.7040409@uiuc.edu> > TEI -> PDF: this one has the most "weirdness" If I recall correctly, this has been done up to now by converting TEI to TeX (a good feature, in any case), and then using other people's software to do TeX to PDF. For my edification, do the troubles show up in the conversion to TeX, or the second conversion to PDF? -- RS From marcello at perathoner.de Tue May 17 13:47:25 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue May 17 13:47:37 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and prposed future-tech-developments group/forum (was "Dear In-Reply-To: <428A5578.7040409@uiuc.edu> References: <20050517201941.635C02F9C3@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> <428A5578.7040409@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <428A585D.9080304@perathoner.de> Robert Shimmin wrote: > If I recall correctly, this has been done up to now by converting TEI to > TeX (a good feature, in any case), and then using other people's > software to do TeX to PDF. For my edification, do the troubles show up > in the conversion to TeX, or the second conversion to PDF? The problem is that many features of TEI are not one-to-one mappable onto other formats. The easiest format to map is HTML. TXT (nroff) and PDF (TeX) are much harder. In TXT you can often sneak by because its a "Low-Fidelity" format. PDF is a very "High-Fidelity" format where every quirk shows up mercilessly. "Other people's software" is pdflatex. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From marcello at perathoner.de Tue May 17 13:52:58 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue May 17 13:53:09 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and prposed future-tech-developments group/forum (was "Dear Jon") In-Reply-To: <1192266075.20050517142744@noring.name> References: 6667 <20050517164447.94225.qmail@web33004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <385311089.20050517125004@noring.name> <428A48D1.5050207@perathoner.de> <1192266075.20050517142744@noring.name> Message-ID: <428A59AA.8040801@perathoner.de> Jon Noring wrote: > Where again is the site hosting the latest PGTEI documents (and DTD if > one has been put together)? (This request is not only for me, but for > others interested in PGTEI.) Start at: http://www.gutenberg.org/tei/ -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From joshua at hutchinson.net Tue May 17 13:53:37 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Tue May 17 13:53:45 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and prposed future-tech-developments group/forum (was "Dear Message-ID: <20050517205337.753AB109B75@ws6-4.us4.outblaze.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Shimmin" > > > TEI -> PDF: this one has the most "weirdness" > > If I recall correctly, this has been done up to now by converting TEI to TeX > (a good feature, in any case), and then using other people's software to do > TeX to PDF. For my edification, do the troubles show up in the conversion to > TeX, or the second conversion to PDF? > Yes, that is exactly how the process goes (Marcello can probably dig into the nitty-gritty better than I). The problem is that a table marked up like this: A REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLYREALLY LONG TEXT STRING
The TEI -> HTML just creates a normal HTML table and the browser will wrap the cell to the width it has to work with. The TEI -> Text will line wrap pretty well on its own, too (I believe the tbl processor in groff handles this?) The TEI -> PDF will just run the table off the edge of the page. You can add a rend attribute to the table with some LaTeX table commands that will help, but the conversion doesn't try to line wrap automatically. Also, the LaTeX table formatting requires you to put the width that you want the cell to be in the table, which requires you to do a lot more thinking and preparing on each table. For some of the monster table texts in DP, this exercise would quickly make a grown man cry with boredom and frustration. Josh From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue May 17 14:17:06 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Tue May 17 14:17:23 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] no, the problem is Message-ID: <195.3f5bb8f4.2fbbb952@aol.com> melissa said: > Last time he went away from the DP forums, > he threatedned to tell the world the truth about DP > --is that the one? "threatened"? to "tell the truth"? are there some desperate housewives over at d.p.? that's quite a vivid imagination you've got, melissa. there are some problems with the d.p. workflow -- some rather glaring ones, when you consider how many people are laboring under those flows, who should see where they need improvement -- and i will make independent digitizers _smarter_ about what chronology they should use instead, but that's hardly an expose on "entertainment tonight"... so you're just more noise here, intended as a smear. and speaking of gutvol-d as an "umbrella" listserve, i'm wondering how many of the subscribers here are interested in the slightest bit about the specifics of .tei markup, of the type permeating the threads today? it's another example of the techies chasing people away. -bowerbird From rvijay07 at myway.com Tue May 17 15:00:41 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Tue May 17 15:00:57 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Severe Resistance to EBooks. Message-ID: <20050517220041.320E93958@mprdmxin.myway.com> I spoke to about 10 people in the last week that I personally know. The aged are hesitant to stay long infront of the Computer due to eye strain etc., Those who go to school etc., are busy with their studies. In general society still hasn't got comfortable with the idea of EBooks. It is something that they will read if they have to or have no other choice it appears. Even I myself started liking EBooks only like a month ago. Hence, PG may have a bumpy growth as and when more people get comfortable with using EBooks. These people by the way are not familar with ebook readers as well and the advantages that they offer. Share your comments/experiences in this regard. Regards, Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From donovan at abs.net Tue May 17 15:05:23 2005 From: donovan at abs.net (D Garcia) Date: Tue May 17 15:02:52 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG Forums In-Reply-To: <20050517183653.29215.qmail@web33006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050517183653.29215.qmail@web33006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200505171805.24186.donovan@abs.net> On Tuesday 17 May 2005 02:36 pm, Jonathan Ingram wrote: > --- "Joseph R. Gruber" wrote: > > Why not create PG forums? > > We just tend to use the DP forums... you're welcome to come and join us :). Since DP and PG have related but usually separate concerns, it would be of benefit for PG to have its own forums where those can be given focus. [Yes, I changed the Subject mid-thread, since the subject changed.] From collin at xs4all.nl Tue May 17 15:25:05 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Tue May 17 15:12:18 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and prposed future-tech-developments group/forum (was "Dear Jon") In-Reply-To: <428A59AA.8040801@perathoner.de> References: <1192266075.20050517142744@noring.name> Message-ID: <428A8B61.29451.34EA233@localhost> On 17 May 2005, at 22:52, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Jon Noring wrote: > > > Where again is the site hosting the latest PGTEI documents (and DTD > > if one has been put together)? (This request is not only for me, but > > for others interested in PGTEI.) > > Start at: > > http://www.gutenberg.org/tei/ The other day there was a flurry of PGTEIization at Distributed Proofreaders. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to host the results at http://www.gutenberg.org/tei/ too. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From rvijay07 at myway.com Tue May 17 16:13:27 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Tue May 17 16:13:45 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] An Error, eye strain, solution. Message-ID: <20050517231327.A851F397E@mprdmxin.myway.com> Dave Fawthrop wrote: >> Do you need VDU Glasses? http://tinyurl.com/c3lh, Thanks for the great link, I shared this with some of my friends. My eye strain was more due to using smaller fonts. Larger fonts are more comfortable to read. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From joshua at hutchinson.net Tue May 17 16:32:37 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Tue May 17 16:32:37 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and prposed future-tech-developments group/forum (was "Dear Jon") In-Reply-To: <428A8B61.29451.34EA233@localhost> References: <1192266075.20050517142744@noring.name> <428A8B61.29451.34EA233@localhost> Message-ID: <428A7F15.7090107@hutchinson.net> Branko Collin wrote: >On 17 May 2005, at 22:52, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > > >>Jon Noring wrote: >> >> >> >>>Where again is the site hosting the latest PGTEI documents (and DTD >>>if one has been put together)? (This request is not only for me, but >>>for others interested in PGTEI.) >>> >>> >>Start at: >> >> http://www.gutenberg.org/tei/ >> >> > >The other day there was a flurry of PGTEIization at Distributed >Proofreaders. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to host the results at >http://www.gutenberg.org/tei/ too. > > > I have some extra space on the pglaf.org server now. After the DP roll-out, I'm gonna bring up the TEI subject again and I'll have plenty of space to have lots of examples and tests (instead of struggling to fit everything with the 10mb my ISP gave me). I don't want to get the ball rolling on this right now, because of the DP stuff. JHutch PS I promise I won't "pull a bowerbird" and never actually produce the files I'm talking about! From lofstrom at lava.net Tue May 17 16:45:28 2005 From: lofstrom at lava.net (Karen Lofstrom) Date: Tue May 17 16:45:42 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Severe Resistance to EBooks. In-Reply-To: <20050517220041.320E93958@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050517220041.320E93958@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005, rvijay07 wrote: > I spoke to about 10 people in the last week that I personally know. The > aged are hesitant to stay long infront of the Computer due to eye strain > etc., I spend a lot of time reading at the computer, but it is NOT my favorite reading mode. I read e-books on a PDA. It works fine for me, because I'm extremely near-sighted. I just take off my glasses, hold the PDA a few inches from my nose, and scroll away. Many people do read on PDAs. If you carry one anyway, why not add a few dozen novels to read if you're stuck in line somewhere? Of course, PDAs aren't the final answer. The screen is too small and low-resolution for many. A tablet computer might work -- the Simputer? If I had the money, I'd buy a Librie and use free software hacks to get it to display English, or get a Cybook. -- Karen Lofstrom From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue May 17 17:10:48 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Tue May 17 17:11:12 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Severe Resistance to EBooks. Message-ID: <97.5fa9830c.2fbbe208@aol.com> vijay said: > Share your comments/experiences in this regard. our experiences over decades are the same as yours in the last ten days. so at this point, there remains little motivation for us to rehash them. all of the problems are well-known, and most are out of our control... so we go on, and wait for the world to change, as we know that it will, since we see that the youngsters are very different from their parents. and we make wishes that the oldsters die sooner rather than later... ;+) we hope for a return to the early days of the personal computer revolution, when the technology was disruptive in nature and changing life every day; but alas, that made some of the principals filthy rich and now they seem to want to do what the privileged have always done, resist and retard progress that threatens to have even any slight negative impact on their pursestrings. so even though we hope for some radical transformation, we are realistic, and realize that the change is far more likely to come much more gradually. finally, we hope that e-books catch on in china -- how can they not? -- because nothing mobilizes american capitalists like a communist threat. one more note, i guess. i wish we could "leap-frog" new eyes like yours, to help them focus past what we _already_ know, and on into the future... -bowerbird From ds at dougschroeder.com Tue May 17 16:01:23 2005 From: ds at dougschroeder.com (Doug Schroeder) Date: Tue May 17 17:52:41 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] no, the problem is Message-ID: <8717E267C6767348AD6234EA0CC628C508E134@NTXBEUS01.exchange.xchg> bowerturkey: > there are some problems with the d.p. workflow > -- some rather glaring ones, when you consider > how many people are laboring under those flows, Key issue, people are working. You (and I) are not. Go away or actually release that software you threatened to do some 2-3 years ago. Since I don't contribute, I usually keep my mouth closed. Oh, what's your USER ID over at DP, we could ruin a forum over there and you could brag about how many pages you proof. Greg, Enough already. Just kick his arse out of here. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3794 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050517/5aa3ff6a/attachment.bin From rvijay07 at myway.com Tue May 17 18:42:28 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Tue May 17 18:42:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Last Book. Message-ID: <20050518014228.F11B5603A1@mprdmxin.myway.com> What is the last book you read at PG ? Hopefully, this discussion will be a learning experience for all. Thanks. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Tue May 17 18:44:03 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Tue May 17 18:44:23 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] FREE CD/DVD info. request. Message-ID: <20050518014403.C55C16039F@mprdmxin.myway.com> Just out of curiosity. How many FREE CDs/DVDs are requested every day/week at PG on average ? Any other related info. welcome. Thanks. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Tue May 17 18:47:52 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Tue May 17 18:48:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Preliminary PGvol Wiki Thread. Message-ID: <20050518014752.2A68B6038D@mprdmxin.myway.com> Please share all the general/basic knowledge that newbie volunteers can/must learn so that they get a head start in regards to the PG. Hopefully, this will also avoid repeat questions here. Once we have a page or two of this info., this can either be E-mailed to newbies who join here or perhaps be hosted somewhere. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From cjc at gutenberg.net.au Tue May 17 18:50:17 2005 From: cjc at gutenberg.net.au (Col Choat) Date: Tue May 17 18:50:39 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Severe Resistance to EBooks. In-Reply-To: <20050517220041.320E93958@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: >In general society still hasn't got comfortable with the idea of EBooks. It is something that they will read if they have to >or have no other choice it appears. Don't worry, I have nearly perfected my 'hologram reader'. You close your eyes, think of the ebook title and the words start scrolling on the inside of your eyelids as a hologram. Now if I can only get the data transfer perfected! I make ebooks so that they will be there whenever there is a breakthrough in technology. Whatever the technology, it seems that we will always need the basic etext as a starting point. Since Michael Hart started it all we now have:-- html images tei xml mp3 human voice ebook readers pda hologram reader (maybe next week) etc. etc Of course, we always need to build on the digital text files. That is why I like making them. Col Choat From gbnewby at pglaf.org Tue May 17 22:26:40 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Tue May 17 22:26:41 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG Forums In-Reply-To: <200505171805.24186.donovan@abs.net> References: <20050517183653.29215.qmail@web33006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200505171805.24186.donovan@abs.net> Message-ID: <20050518052640.GB16261@pglaf.org> On Tue, May 17, 2005 at 06:05:23PM -0400, D Garcia wrote: > On Tuesday 17 May 2005 02:36 pm, Jonathan Ingram wrote: > > --- "Joseph R. Gruber" wrote: > > > Why not create PG forums? > > > > We just tend to use the DP forums... you're welcome to come and join us :). > > Since DP and PG have related but usually separate concerns, it would be of > benefit for PG to have its own forums where those can be given focus. You mean we should have BBS types of stuff, rather than just a mailing list? Or, are you saying that the gutvol-d (et al.) is a good complement to the DP forums? I must be looking in the wrong places when I visit the DP forums. Maybe you need to keep on top of them to be useful, since I seem to mostly find older threads, not the active ones. But I'd love to track a few active ones...better go looking some more. -- Greg From servalan at ar.com.au Tue May 17 22:35:05 2005 From: servalan at ar.com.au (Pauline) Date: Tue May 17 22:35:35 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG Forums In-Reply-To: <20050518052640.GB16261@pglaf.org> References: <20050517183653.29215.qmail@web33006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200505171805.24186.donovan@abs.net> <20050518052640.GB16261@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <428AD409.7050900@ar.com.au> Greg Newby wrote: > I must be looking in the wrong places when I visit the DP > forums. Maybe you need to keep on top of them to be useful, > since I seem to mostly find older threads, not the active ones. > But I'd love to track a few active ones...better go looking > some more. You need to be a registered user to be able to read most of the DP Forum content. You can register at DP here: http://www.pgdp.net Once registered, the Forums are here: http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2 There already is a Project Gutenberg Forum for those interested in discussing PG issues. If you think you have a registered account, but a dog has eaten the password, you can email dphelp pgdp.net & someone will help you extract it from the dog. Cheers, P -- Help digitise public domain books: Distributed Proofreaders: http://www.pgdp.net "Preserving history one page at a time." Set free dead-tree books: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/servalan From tb at baechler.net Tue May 17 22:40:25 2005 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Tue May 17 22:39:38 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] newsletter editors In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050517001045.02b7e6d0@baechler.net> <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> <42885AF5.E299CDA2@ibiblio.org> <20050516163307.GD1372@pglaf.org> <4288CE29.9020304@perathoner.de> <20050516175420.GA5471@pglaf.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20050517001045.02b7e6d0@baechler.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050517222418.025d9e20@baechler.net> Hi. So, should I just put something together as a draft and post it here or send it to someone in particular? The problem I had last time is that I had someone else who also wanted to do the newsletter asking me what to do. I had to explain that I have no control over the PG lists and in fact really had no more idea of what to do than they did. George was surprised that I never got replies back in regards to questions I had asked. I think that a team effort is probably best since I do not want to take over MH's portion of the newsletter. The part I would do would probably not be very large and would hopefully mostly consist of features sent in by others. I would act as an editor, not a writer. As I understand it, we are talking about editors here, and an editor simply fixes errors in text written by others. I might write a paragraph editorial, but I am not one for verbosity in my writing. The only other difficulty I could see is that I would probably prefer to send my portion out on Tuesday or Wednesday nights as opposed to Wednesday at noon. This means that I would have to receive submissions by Tuesday afternoon so I could fix them in time. That would be subject to change of course and would depend on how much material I would get. If I have a regular group of submitters such as someone to report on DP, someone to review a book or two and someone to comment on a particularly interesting book posted in the last week, I would definitely set my deadline for each week to Tuesday morning. If I only have something trickle in on an irregular basis, this could be extended to Tuesday at midnight or early Wednesday morning. I realize that posting the newsletter to the lists on this time schedule doesn't comply with the PG policy of posting all parts by noon on Wednesday, but the new books part is produced automatically now and I would not really be dealing with that at all, so I don't think my portion is as time-sensitive. If this is something that Michael and Greg would like to see me go further on, I will try to put something together. I unfortunately can't manage the newsletter web archives at this time, and again I would not want to do part one or whatever part becomes MH's portion. At 09:58 AM 5/17/2005 -0700, you wrote: >We don't have a set of rules for how an editor should write newsletters, >each editor, including Alice, George, Greg, and Michael, has simply done >the newsletters as they think best. You are encouraged to write in any >manner you like, and to keep writing even when there are others writing, >no need for only one way of doing things. From gbnewby at pglaf.org Tue May 17 22:40:47 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Tue May 17 22:40:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Severe Resistance to EBooks. In-Reply-To: <20050517220041.320E93958@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050517220041.320E93958@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <20050518054047.GC16261@pglaf.org> On Tue, May 17, 2005 at 06:00:41PM -0400, rvijay07 wrote: > > I spoke to about 10 people in the last week that I personally know. The aged are hesitant to stay long infront of the Computer due to eye strain etc., > > Those who go to school etc., are busy with their studies. > > In general society still hasn't got comfortable with the idea of EBooks. It is something that they will read if they have to or have no other choice it appears. > > Even I myself started liking EBooks only like a month ago. Hence, PG may have a bumpy growth as and when more people get comfortable with using EBooks. These people by the way are not familar with ebook readers as well and the advantages that they offer. > I question whether this is resistance to eBooks, or just a combination of (a) not liking to read much, or to read older literature; and (b) lack of technical facility or equipment. For (a), I admit that most of my pleasure reading is in contemporary stuff. If I could get all the titles I'd like for my EBookWise reader, I would...but instead I purchase dead trees, mostly via mail order. But I do read through several PG eBooks per month, and skim several more per week. Here, we're all (presumably) interested in reading. But there are lots of people who only read one or a few books per year, if that. In the US, the advertised literacy rate of 97% always seemed a little generous to me, given how few people seem to spend any significant quantity of time with a book. For (b), I sit in front of one of my 1600x1200 20.1" LCD displays (one at home, identical one at work)....or the screen on my rather expensive 17" Powerbook. When I need to use someone else's ~14" laptop, or an older smaller CRT, I get eye strain almost immediately. Between my chair, my desk, my monitor, my keyboard, etc., plus high-speed Internet all around, I've got a pretty darned satisfactory environment for reading stuff on computers. I use ad blockers in my Web browsers, and know how to use them to zoom in, download to a file for later reading, etc. Where does all this put me? Pretty average for our high-end volunteers and readers, I'd imagine. But for folks on a modem, with a small monitor, poor ergonomics, and (most importantly) little ability to really take control of their computers, I can see where just doing email would be miserable... (And often is!! Who doesn't know people who change email addresses periodically, just to escape the spam they can't deal with anymore?) Between (a) and (b), I'm not surprised that many people have little interest in reading eBooks on their computers. Add to that the difficulty of finding one -- or even knowing if the book you want is out there -- and even those predisposed to read eBooks on their computers might not realize they're out there (and, at PG, free!). -- Greg PS: This isn't to say that eBooks aren't the Last Great Hope to save Civilization, and all that good stuff!! I'm still in this to help empower people through literacy. But I see how eBooks still have a ways to go before their role challenges their dead trees counterparts for vast numbers of the world's population. We just need to keep a'workin. From sly at victoria.tc.ca Tue May 17 22:59:47 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Tue May 17 23:00:07 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] FREE CD/DVD info. request. In-Reply-To: <20050518014403.C55C16039F@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050518014403.C55C16039F@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005, rvijay07 wrote: > Just out of curiosity. How many FREE CDs/DVDs are requested every day/week at PG on average ? > > Any other related info. welcome. > It might be worth noticing that, according to the Top 100 downloads, over the last seven days, the Project Gutenberg "10K" DVD was download 1195 times, and the August 2003 "Best Of" CD 587 times. This is only downloads from the main site, not the requested items that are sent out in the mail. Andrew From JBuck814366460 at aol.com Tue May 17 23:14:27 2005 From: JBuck814366460 at aol.com (Jared Buck) Date: Tue May 17 23:14:49 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Severe Resistance to EBooks. In-Reply-To: <20050518054047.GC16261@pglaf.org> References: <20050517220041.320E93958@mprdmxin.myway.com> <20050518054047.GC16261@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <428ADD43.2070400@aol.com> I had a Palm Tungsten E that I did a lot of ebook reading on (those PDAs are perfect for reading ebooks because they're the size of a paperback book) but I was really irresponsible and left it at school once :( Haven't seen it since. I have a bad habit of leaving stuff around, even something as expensive as that Palm Tungsten. I do agree with the fact that ebooks are more of a novelty right now, partly due to the fact that handhelds (and some ebook readers) are nOT CHEAP. Plus, people like to have devices that can do several things, and PDAs do that. They just cost a pretty penny for most models. My Tungsten cost me nearly 200 dollars. Jared Greg Newby wrote on 5/17/2005, 10:40 PM: > On Tue, May 17, 2005 at 06:00:41PM -0400, rvijay07 wrote: > > > > I spoke to about 10 people in the last week that I personally know. > The aged are hesitant to stay long infront of the Computer due to eye > strain etc., > > > > Those who go to school etc., are busy with their studies. > > > > In general society still hasn't got comfortable with the idea of > EBooks. It is something that they will read if they have to or have no > other choice it appears. > > > > Even I myself started liking EBooks only like a month ago. Hence, PG > may have a bumpy growth as and when more people get comfortable with > using EBooks. These people by the way are not familar with ebook > readers as well and the advantages that they offer. > > > > I question whether this is resistance to eBooks, or just > a combination of (a) not liking to read much, or to read > older literature; and (b) lack of technical facility or > equipment. > > For (a), I admit that most of my pleasure reading is in > contemporary stuff. If I could get all the titles I'd > like for my EBookWise reader, I would...but instead I > purchase dead trees, mostly via mail order. But I do > read through several PG eBooks per month, and skim several > more per week. > > Here, we're all (presumably) interested in reading. But > there are lots of people who only read one or a few books > per year, if that. In the US, the advertised literacy rate > of 97% always seemed a little generous to me, given how > few people seem to spend any significant quantity of time with > a book. > > For (b), I sit in front of one of my 1600x1200 20.1" LCD > displays (one at home, identical one at work)....or the > screen on my rather expensive 17" Powerbook. When I need > to use someone else's ~14" laptop, or an older smaller CRT, > I get eye strain almost immediately. Between my chair, > my desk, my monitor, my keyboard, etc., plus high-speed > Internet all around, I've got a pretty darned satisfactory > environment for reading stuff on computers. > > I use ad blockers in my Web browsers, and know how to use > them to zoom in, download to a file for later reading, etc. > Where does all this put me? Pretty average for our high-end > volunteers and readers, I'd imagine. > > But for folks on a modem, with a small monitor, poor > ergonomics, and (most importantly) little ability to really > take control of their computers, I can see where just doing > email would be miserable... (And often is!! Who doesn't > know people who change email addresses periodically, just to > escape the spam they can't deal with anymore?) > > Between (a) and (b), I'm not surprised that many people have > little interest in reading eBooks on their computers. Add > to that the difficulty of finding one -- or even knowing > if the book you want is out there -- and even those predisposed > to read eBooks on their computers might not realize they're > out there (and, at PG, free!). > -- Greg > > PS: This isn't to say that eBooks aren't the Last Great > Hope to save Civilization, and all that good stuff!! I'm > still in this to help empower people through literacy. But > I see how eBooks still have a ways to go before their role > challenges their dead trees counterparts for vast numbers > of the world's population. We just need to keep a'workin. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From scottsch at ncweb.com Tue May 17 23:19:05 2005 From: scottsch at ncweb.com (Scott Schmucker) Date: Tue May 17 23:19:10 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] FREE CD/DVD info. request. In-Reply-To: <20050518014403.C55C16039F@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050518014403.C55C16039F@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <428ADE59.6060208@ncweb.com> In the past seven days, ~80 requests were received. That does not provide much of an average, since there are significant fluctuations over time, both random and publicity based. But that should at least give an order of magnitude estimate. As Andrew pointed out, a huge number of copies of the CD and DVD are downloaded as well. Requests for physical copies seem to be the minority, as should be expected. - Scott rvijay07 wrote: >Just out of curiosity. How many FREE CDs/DVDs are requested every day/week at PG on average ? > >Any other related info. welcome. > >Thanks. > >Vijay > > > > >_______________________________________________ >No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. >Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com > > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > > > From traverso at dm.unipi.it Tue May 17 23:40:31 2005 From: traverso at dm.unipi.it (Carlo Traverso) Date: Tue May 17 23:40:26 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG Forums In-Reply-To: <20050518052640.GB16261@pglaf.org> (message from Greg Newby on Tue, 17 May 2005 22:26:40 -0700) References: <20050517183653.29215.qmail@web33006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200505171805.24186.donovan@abs.net> <20050518052640.GB16261@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <200505180640.j4I6eVT14508@pico.dm.unipi.it> PG had a forum-like Volunteers' Board at http://promo.net/pg/vol/wwwboard/ but it has become inactive and was officially discontinued on November 28, 2003 The archives are still available at the same address. Carlo From marcello at perathoner.de Wed May 18 00:32:49 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed May 18 00:33:10 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and prposed future-tech-developments group/forum (was "Dear Jon") In-Reply-To: <428A8B61.29451.34EA233@localhost> References: <1192266075.20050517142744@noring.name> <428A8B61.29451.34EA233@localhost> Message-ID: <428AEFA1.5080802@perathoner.de> Branko Collin wrote: >>>Where again is the site hosting the latest PGTEI documents (and DTD >>>if one has been put together)? (This request is not only for me, but >>>for others interested in PGTEI.) >> >>Start at: >> >> http://www.gutenberg.org/tei/ > > The other day there was a flurry of PGTEIization at Distributed > Proofreaders. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to host the results at > http://www.gutenberg.org/tei/ too. I'd prefer to host only milestone documents and not ongoing discussions on the web site. That said, where are the results of that digiTEIzation, so I can take a look? -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed May 18 01:17:43 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed May 18 01:18:07 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] FREE CD/DVD info. request. Message-ID: on the d.v.d. i got, the links to the e-texts from the author/title .html indexes fail... i didn't even try to figure out why, because i can manage, but if this is a problem that everyone has, it probably should be fixed... -bowerbird From rvijay07 at myway.com Wed May 18 01:29:53 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Wed May 18 01:30:14 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for Consideration. Message-ID: <20050518082953.A077160416@mprdmxin.myway.com> One of the drawbacks of PG is that it is considered mainly a fiction/literature type collection. In this regard it is good to add some Technical Books. The easiest way to do this would be to (a) Harvest Technical Books that are already hosted on other sites and then add them here. Proofreading them based on user feedback is suggested. (b) Provide a link to such a Project on PG. In this regard here is one site for consideration: http://www.freeprogrammingresources.com Lots of EBooks and other materials for programmers. Created/Maintained by a very enthusiastic person. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com Wed May 18 02:33:01 2005 From: jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com (Jonathan Ingram) Date: Wed May 18 02:33:22 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] no, the problem is In-Reply-To: <8717E267C6767348AD6234EA0CC628C508E134@NTXBEUS01.exchange.xchg> Message-ID: <20050518093301.12957.qmail@web33014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Doug Schroeder wrote: > bowerturkey: > > > there are some problems with the d.p. workflow > > -- some rather glaring ones, when you consider > > how many people are laboring under those flows, > > Key issue, people are working. You (and I) are not. Aside from the mudslinging, I thought I'd mention that the workflow at DP will be changing soon. Until now, books have done through two general proofing rounds. This is now being split into 2 pure proofreading rounds, and 2 formatting-and-final-overview rounds. This is because we're now processing books which require a lot of formatting, and we find that people find it difficult to concentrate both on proofreading and formatting. After this transition has been successfully completed, we will introduce further mini-rounds for specific content (Greek, tables, music, etc.) which requires specific talents to proofread. -- Jon Ingram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com Wed May 18 02:41:04 2005 From: jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com (Jonathan Ingram) Date: Wed May 18 02:41:26 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for Consideration. In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050518094104.77465.qmail@web33002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- rvijay07 wrote: > > One of the drawbacks of PG is that it is considered mainly a > fiction/literature type collection. In this regard it is good to add some > Technical Books. While the site you link to has some interesting content, I'd prefer to see PG remain primarily a repository of public domain material -- and this in no way stops us from increasing the amount of non-fiction texts. Indeed, there are many non-fiction texts going through DP at the moment, in many subject areas, from dictionaries to bell-ringing, cookery to history. Sadly the overly long length of modern copyright terms mean that we won't see a large influx of public domain computer programming material for a while. -- Jon Ingram __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Wed May 18 03:30:08 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Wed May 18 03:30:37 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for Consideration. Message-ID: <20050518103008.B324412D6E@mprdmxin.myway.com> There are Linux Books that are sold as HardCopy but the EBooks are free to distribute I believe. Also, since the other site is distributing these books without trouble, wouldn't it be safe to assume that these IT EBooks are also Public Domain ? If they can be verified to be Public Domain, then can't they be hosted here ? Thanks. Vijay --- On Wed 05/18, Jonathan Ingram < jonathan_ingram@yahoo.com > wrote: From: Jonathan Ingram [mailto: jonathan_ingram@yahoo.com] To: rvijay07@myway.com, gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 02:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for Consideration. --- rvijay07 wrote:
>
> One of the drawbacks of PG is that it is considered mainly a
> fiction/literature type collection. In this regard it is good to add some
> Technical Books.

While the site you link to has some interesting content, I'd prefer to see PG
remain primarily a repository of public domain material -- and this in no way
stops us from increasing the amount of non-fiction texts. Indeed, there are
many non-fiction texts going through DP at the moment, in many subject areas,
from dictionaries to bell-ringing, cookery to history.

Sadly the overly long length of modern copyright terms mean that we won't see a
large influx of public domain computer programming material for a while.

--
Jon Ingram


__________________________________________________
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_______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Wed May 18 03:31:16 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Wed May 18 03:31:38 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! Message-ID: <20050518103116.50C3D12D76@mprdmxin.myway.com> Has anyone here tried this software ? http://www.spacejock.com/yRead.html Please share your experience/comments. Vijay :) _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From collin at xs4all.nl Wed May 18 04:14:10 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Wed May 18 04:01:35 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Severe Resistance to EBooks. In-Reply-To: <20050518054047.GC16261@pglaf.org> References: <20050517220041.320E93958@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <428B3FA2.27711.26C5AA@localhost> On 17 May 2005, at 22:40, Greg Newby wrote: > On Tue, May 17, 2005 at 06:00:41PM -0400, rvijay07 wrote: > > > I spoke to about 10 people in the last week that I personally know. [snip] > I question whether this is resistance to eBooks, or just > a combination of (a) not liking to read much, or to read > older literature; and (b) lack of technical facility or > equipment. I think annecdotal evidence is no evidence at all. It is useless to discuss the growing or lessening popularity of ebooks in general based on a few of Vijay's personal observations. Those personal observations can be fun to talk about in their own right, but they are not evidence of a trend. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From beacybooks at bigpond.com Wed May 18 04:06:09 2005 From: beacybooks at bigpond.com (Tom Harris) Date: Wed May 18 04:06:39 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Bye Bye References: <195.3f5bb8f4.2fbbb952@aol.com> Message-ID: <025501c55b99$98bdb2e0$f45b8b90@tombr8f71av6f6> Bye Bye, This list could be so good, but the pricks have spoiled it again. I'll give it a try in another year I suppose. I must have proofed 10 books at least for Gutenberg, why not a list for proven contributors only? Regards Tom Harris BeacyBooks beacybooks@bigpond.com From collin at xs4all.nl Wed May 18 04:22:07 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Wed May 18 04:09:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! In-Reply-To: <20050518103116.50C3D12D76@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <428B417F.31227.2E0E1C@localhost> On 18 May 2005, at 6:31, rvijay07 wrote: > Has anyone here tried this software ? > http://www.spacejock.com/yRead.html Please don't post unqualified links, that's rude. What does the software you refer to do? What is it called? Why are you interested in it? -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From collin at xs4all.nl Wed May 18 04:22:07 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Wed May 18 04:09:37 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for Consideration. In-Reply-To: <20050518082953.A077160416@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <428B417F.18689.2E0E03@localhost> On 18 May 2005, at 4:29, rvijay07 wrote: > One of the drawbacks of PG is that it is considered mainly a > fiction/literature type collection. By whom? Why is that a drawback? > In this regard it is good to add some Technical Books. Why? > The easiest way to do this would be to (a) > Harvest Technical Books that are already hosted on other sites and > then add them here. Proofreading them based on user feedback is > suggested. (b) Provide a link to such a Project on PG. I think people should add whatever they want to add. If you feel like adding technical books, please go ahead. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From marcello at perathoner.de Wed May 18 04:11:28 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed May 18 04:11:53 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for Consideration. In-Reply-To: <20050518094104.77465.qmail@web33002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050518094104.77465.qmail@web33002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <428B22E0.20905@perathoner.de> Jonathan Ingram wrote: > Sadly the overly long length of modern copyright terms mean that we won't see a > large influx of public domain computer programming material for a while. Many FSF books are copylefted. One I should definitely like to see in the collection is: Free Software Free Society selected essays of Richard M. Stallman My paper copy says: "Permission is granted to make and distribute verbatim copies of this book provided the copyright notice and this notice are preserved on all copies." -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From jtinsley at pobox.com Wed May 18 04:33:20 2005 From: jtinsley at pobox.com (Jim Tinsley) Date: Wed May 18 04:33:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG Forums In-Reply-To: <200505180640.j4I6eVT14508@pico.dm.unipi.it> References: <20050517183653.29215.qmail@web33006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200505171805.24186.donovan@abs.net> <20050518052640.GB16261@pglaf.org> <200505180640.j4I6eVT14508@pico.dm.unipi.it> Message-ID: <20050518113320.GA14091@panix.com> On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 08:40:31AM +0200, Carlo Traverso wrote: > >PG had a forum-like Volunteers' Board at >http://promo.net/pg/vol/wwwboard/ but it has become inactive and was >officially discontinued on November 28, 2003 > >The archives are still available at the same address. I can't recommend emulating it; at least, not _simply_ emulating it. The rules of the board were that "This Board is for posting any question or information about how to create Project Gutenberg E-Texts." and "Off-topic subjects include anything that is NOT about creating PG e-texts,". I moderated it ruthlessly; personal insults, opinion, advocacy, posts from clueless newbies who thought they were gurus, and indeed anything that did not fit the moderation parameters comfortably just went to the Big Bit-Bucket In The Sky without a second thought. It was a place where newcomers could browse or ask questions and make contact -- with me, if no-one else -- and try to get their heads around what PG was. Remember, PG was very opaque before that: the _only_ two-way communication was private mail. Then the Board and gutvol-d started up, and quickly settled into a pattern: the Board was the shopfront-window for passers-by who might be interested in walking in; gutvol-d was the back-room for the regulars. And please note, by "regulars" I mean people who were actually contributing to PG, who knew what they were talking about from experience, and who had a stake in the outcome. Monday-morning Quarterbacks weren't really in evidence. The Board had value in hooking people up with useful work, and with answering newbie questions, and it did good. Nowadays, however, people can find useful work to do all the time at DP, and all the newbie questions are answered in the FAQ, which was largely comprised of questions that had been asked on the Board. Its functions had become obsolete, and an attempt to revive it would, I think, be futile. jim From jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com Wed May 18 04:34:38 2005 From: jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com (Jonathan Ingram) Date: Wed May 18 04:35:02 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for Consideration. In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050518113439.44990.qmail@web33014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Jonathan Ingram wrote: > > > Sadly the overly long length of modern copyright terms mean that we won't > see a > > large influx of public domain computer programming material for a while. > > Many FSF books are copylefted. Indeed, but this is a very different thing from being public domain. -- Jon Ingram __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From jtinsley at pobox.com Wed May 18 04:41:38 2005 From: jtinsley at pobox.com (Jim Tinsley) Date: Wed May 18 04:42:01 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Bye Bye In-Reply-To: <025501c55b99$98bdb2e0$f45b8b90@tombr8f71av6f6> References: <195.3f5bb8f4.2fbbb952@aol.com> <025501c55b99$98bdb2e0$f45b8b90@tombr8f71av6f6> Message-ID: <20050518114138.GB14091@panix.com> On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 09:06:09PM +1000, Tom Harris wrote: >Bye Bye, > >This list could be so good, but the pricks have spoiled it again. I'll give >it a try in another year I suppose. Sorry to hear that, Tom, but I do understand. I'd have dropped gutvol-d long ago except that I feel a duty to stay with it, even if I no longer read most of it. >I must have proofed 10 books at least for Gutenberg, why not a list for >proven contributors only? I'd second that, except that (a) it'd be really hard to separate out "proven contributors" by definition or observation -- too many borderline cases -- and (b) we don't want to exclude newbies who really do want to learn and make real contributions: remember, we were all newbies once. jim From rvijay07 at myway.com Wed May 18 04:58:06 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Wed May 18 04:58:30 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Severe Resistance to EBooks. Message-ID: <20050518115806.6D4485C4AF@mprdmxin.myway.com> Branko Collin collin at xs4all.nl wrote: >>> I think annecdotal evidence is no evidence at all. It is useless to discuss the growing or lessening popularity of ebooks in general based on a few of Vijay's personal observations. >>> Those personal observations can be fun to talk about in their own right, but they are not evidence of a trend. Very true of the above and agreed. I have also read about postts on web-sites in regards to people preferring real books and to stay away from ebooks as they are not good for eyes. So as a NEWBIE, I just wanted to know more in this regard from those with more experience. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Wed May 18 05:10:01 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Wed May 18 05:10:05 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! Message-ID: <20050518121001.CA3485C4BF@mprdmxin.myway.com> Branko Collin collin at xs4all.nl wrote: >>> Please don't post unqualified links, that's rude. What does the software you refer to do? What is it called? Why are you interested in it? This is in reference to my post regarding eye strain from reading EBooks. This FREE software is supposed to read aloud ebooks in text format so that one can hear them. After a hard days work in front of the PC, it would be nice to *LISTEN* to PG ebooks close my eyes and relax a little. Also, audio files take longer to download. So for those who like to listen to audio but with a slow internet connection, this software is a blessing (Provided it works). This is the first time that I came across such a software. (Such small ideas may also help in promoting PG to older people, people with eye problems etc., etc.,) So was looking for opinions from others who may have experience in this (or other similar but better software). I sincerely thank again all those who responded to my questions here so far, they have all greatly helped me learn. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From joshua at hutchinson.net Wed May 18 05:35:22 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Wed May 18 05:35:25 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for Consideration. Message-ID: <20050518123522.077A92FA1C@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> What is our official stance on stuff like this? There are some pretty useful documents out there that we could probably add to the collection under the circumstances Marcello describes. Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcello Perathoner" To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for Consideration. Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:11:28 +0200 > > Jonathan Ingram wrote: > > > Sadly the overly long length of modern copyright terms mean that we won't > > see a > > large influx of public domain computer programming material for a while. > > Many FSF books are copylefted. One I should definitely like to see in the > collection is: > > Free Software Free Society > > selected essays of > > Richard M. Stallman > > > My paper copy says: > > "Permission is granted to make and distribute verbatim copies of this book > provided the copyright notice and this notice are preserved on all copies." > > > -- Marcello Perathoner > webmaster@gutenberg.org > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From collin at xs4all.nl Wed May 18 06:15:00 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Wed May 18 06:02:08 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Severe Resistance to EBooks. In-Reply-To: <20050518115806.6D4485C4AF@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <428B5BF4.10745.956D55@localhost> On 18 May 2005, at 7:58, rvijay07 wrote: > Branko Collin collin at xs4all.nl wrote: > > >>> I think annecdotal evidence is no evidence at all. It is useless > >>> to > discuss the growing or lessening popularity of ebooks in general based > on a few of Vijay's personal observations. > > >>> Those personal observations can be fun to talk about in their own > right, but they are not evidence of a trend. > > Very true of the above and agreed. I have also read about postts on > web-sites in regards to people preferring real books and to stay away > from ebooks as they are not good for eyes. So as a NEWBIE, I just > wanted to know more in this regard from those with more experience. I read a story once about a Distributed Proofreaders volunteer who got into a conversation on a plane with the lady sitting next to him. It turned out that the stack of papers on her lap was actually a book she had printed out from Project Gutenberg. IIRC, it was a book that she had looked for for a long time, but could not find, until it turned up at PG. It is success stories like these that motivate me to be a volunteer. The failure stories,... well, they are sad and certainly should be taken as a lesson of how we can improve things. But in the end, we provide a service for people who appreciate our product, not for those who don't. Also, keep in mind that what PG produces is the raw material. We produce very basic ebooks that everybody has access to. Third parties can then take (most of) these raw materials and add value to them in some way. We are constantly working to make the life of these third parties easier. For instance, we are working on a format for meta-data, so that (in theory at least) it would be easier to produce richer versions of our etexts. Also, we produce MARK records, so that libraries and such have an easier time classifying our etexts. There are many more examples of this. Perhaps you should show your friends not the raw materials, but the end products. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From collin at xs4all.nl Wed May 18 06:21:02 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Wed May 18 06:08:09 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! In-Reply-To: <20050518121001.CA3485C4BF@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <428B5D5E.9396.9AF29E@localhost> On 18 May 2005, at 8:10, rvijay07 wrote: > Branko Collin collin at xs4all.nl wrote: > > >>> Please don't post unqualified links, that's rude. What does the > software you refer to do? What is it called? Why are you interested in > it? > > This is in reference to my post regarding eye strain from reading > EBooks. This FREE software is supposed to read aloud ebooks in text > format so that one can hear them. After a hard days work in front of > the PC, it would be nice to *LISTEN* to PG ebooks close my eyes and > relax a little. Also, audio files take longer to download. So for > those who like to listen to audio but with a slow internet connection, > this software is a blessing (Provided it works). This is the first > time that I came across such a software. (Such small ideas may also > help in promoting PG to older people, people with eye problems etc., > etc.,) So was looking for opinions from others who may have experience > in this (or other similar but better software). I haven't tried the program myself. Were you aware by the way that Project Gutenberg produces its own audiobooks? See http://www.gutenberg.org/audio/ for lists of computer and human read audiobooks. This doesn't solve your bandwidth problems, but perhaps there are other solutions for that. If you made a wishlist of the books you wanted, perhaps somebody could send you a CD. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From collin at xs4all.nl Wed May 18 06:33:49 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Wed May 18 06:20:56 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Policing the list Message-ID: <428B605D.10068.A6A7DC@localhost> I have seen solutions offered for preventing the posting of flame- inducing postings to this list, but found them mostly severely over the top. If this were not a mailing list but a village, I am sure we would have simple solutions for dealing with the village idiot. None of those would entail building a second village, or having a curfew or whatever. The simplest solution would be to temporarily moderate the troublemakers. That way you do not drive away the people that have just as much right to be here as the troublemakers, and you do not discipline the troublemakers in excess. Banning the troublemakers on the other hand would only be an option if they even cause the police too much work. As an aside, I wish people would excercise a little more constraint when stumbling across Bowerbird's ramblings. The Bird cannot help being an idiot. You can. I started filtering out the flunkeys, and currently have the following addresses in my blocklist: Shimmin, Jon Noring, JWaddell, Gutenberg9443, Joshua, CannonA, Brandon, and Doug Schroeder. These are all people who felt it necessary to engage with the Bird and make this list a worse place to be, when instead they could have shown constraint. The reason I am for policing still is because new list members of course don't know the trolls yet, and so may unwittingly engage in unnecessary flame wars. By moderating the trolls, you make it easier for the others to behave. Just my 2 cents, of course. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From sly at victoria.tc.ca Wed May 18 08:05:48 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Wed May 18 08:05:55 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for Consideration. In-Reply-To: <20050518082953.A077160416@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050518082953.A077160416@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005, rvijay07 wrote: > One of the drawbacks of PG is that it is considered mainly a fiction/literature type collection. In this regard it is good to add some Technical Books. rvijay, I know you asked about what kind of things a new volunteer might want to be aware of about PG. This is one of them. There are regularly people who come in and say "The problem with PG is that [fill in the blank]" As if they hope that "some people" will go ahead and fix this "obvious deficiency". Here I can give Jon Noring credit. He has views of what would make PG better, and he is _actively trying to do something about it_. It might help you to realize that the most involved PG volunteers may not be posting here a great deal because they have a lot to do. In fact I would say that they always have a large backlog of tasks to do. If you have some partcular texts that you would like to see added to the collection, which you believe can be freely distributed, go ahead and look at getting PG copyright clearance, then preparing the texts for PG. You are bound to have questions along the way, and we are happy to help here. Just ask. Andrew From sly at victoria.tc.ca Wed May 18 08:16:35 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Wed May 18 08:16:40 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Bye Bye In-Reply-To: <20050518114138.GB14091@panix.com> References: <195.3f5bb8f4.2fbbb952@aol.com> <025501c55b99$98bdb2e0$f45b8b90@tombr8f71av6f6> <20050518114138.GB14091@panix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005, Jim Tinsley wrote: > I'd second that, except that (a) it'd be really hard to separate > out "proven contributors" by definition or observation -- too > many borderline cases -- and (b) we don't want to exclude newbies > who really do want to learn and make real contributions: remember, > we were all newbies once. Indeed. If you look back on the recently mentioned old web-board, you can find posts from some newby called "Andrew Sly" asking questions about handling italics, paragraphs with only one quote mark, extra space in contractions, etc. :) Andrew From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed May 18 10:00:53 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed May 18 10:01:17 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! Message-ID: <141.459fb1a2.2fbccec5@aol.com> vijay said: > Has anyone here tried this software ? > http://www.spacejock.com/yRead.html text-to-speech is nice, but perhaps even more relevant here is his viewer-program: > http://www.spacejock.com/yBook.html i haven't tried it, because it's p.c.-only, but ybook gets fairly good reviews, and it has a 2-up facing-pages interface, which i like. it will download the p.g. catalog for display, and then let you download individual e-texts, so it's a cutting-edge illustration of how people will soon be able to relate to project gutenberg as a _library_, and not just a bunch of e-texts... -bowerbird From hart at pglaf.org Wed May 18 10:12:14 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Wed May 18 10:16:54 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Severe Resistance to EBooks. In-Reply-To: <20050518054047.GC16261@pglaf.org> References: <20050517220041.320E93958@mprdmxin.myway.com> <20050518054047.GC16261@pglaf.org> Message-ID: > On Tue, May 17, 2005 at 06:00:41PM -0400, rvijay07 wrote: >> >> I spoke to about 10 people in the last week that I personally know. The aged >> are hesitant to stay long infront of the Computer due to eye strain etc., That's just the opposite of the comments I get from from those with aging eyesight. . .they tell me it is MUCH easier to read when they get to choose the font and size. >> Those who go to school etc., are busy with their studies. Schools here are moving more and more to eBooks, see New York Times article referenced in today's PT1 Newsletter that just went out. >> In general society still hasn't got comfortable with the idea of EBooks. It >> is something that they will read if they have to or have no other choice it >> appears. With the price of books going through the roof, and the price of computers so unbelievably low, the cost/benefit ratio alone will be enough. However, I think a LOT of this has to do with a generation gap thing, that will become more and more obvious as time goes on. The next generations will look at screens more than paper, not that they aren't doing that already. >> Even I myself started liking EBooks only like a month ago. Hence, PG may >> have a bumpy growth as and when more people get comfortable with using >> EBooks. These people by the way are not familar with ebook readers as well >> and the advantages that they offer. I don't think most people are familiar with eBook readers at all. More than twice as many people seem to read from PDAs as eBook readers, and about the same read from PPC's as eBook readers, not to mention those who use desktops and laptops. The percentages will continue to grow, esp. as schools required iBooks, laptops, etc. Michael From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed May 18 10:16:16 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed May 18 10:16:59 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Severe Resistance to EBooks. Message-ID: branko said: > I think annecdotal evidence is no evidence at all. then why call it "evidence" at all? it is indeed a certain type of evidence, and as long as you understand and accept its limitations, it's useful. > It is useless to discuss the growing or > lessening popularity of ebooks in general > based on a few of Vijay's personal observations. it would be unwise to trust his short-term observations over our long-term observations if the two conflicted, but so far i would say they've been in close alignment... perhaps it upsets some people here that a person does not need to be an expert to realize the important issues, but that's the way this particular situation is... > Those personal observations can be fun to talk about > in their own right, but they are not evidence of a trend. they are _not_ much fun to talk about any more, are they? isn't that why nobody's really responding to vijay's posts? they've already been discussed to death on the listserves. but perhaps it's not good for us to be so jaded, and thus reminders of the issues by seeing them through new eyes might be just the ticket for waking us from complacency. for instance, notice how the issue of the viewer-program surfaces so often in vijay's observations? that's a focus that i think is extremely important to the end-readers, but most of the "experts" here just gloss over it entirely... -bowerbird From hart at pglaf.org Wed May 18 10:27:37 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Wed May 18 10:27:38 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] newsletter editors In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050517222418.025d9e20@baechler.net> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050517001045.02b7e6d0@baechler.net> <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> <42885AF5.E299CDA2@ibiblio.org> <20050516163307.GD1372@pglaf.org> <4288CE29.9020304@perathoner.de> <20050516175420.GA5471@pglaf.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20050517001045.02b7e6d0@baechler.net> <5.2.0.9.0.20050517222418.025d9e20@baechler.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005, Tony Baechler wrote: > Hi. So, should I just put something together as a draft and post it here or > send it to someone in particular? Yes, please send your drafts of me and Greg, and anyone else you would like to have proofreading for you. . .I can supply a list of some, if you like, and after a few iterations we will hopefully have something ready to send to everyone. > The problem I had last time is that I had someone else who also wanted to do > the newsletter asking me what to do. I had to explain that I have no control > over the PG lists and in fact really had no more idea of what to do than they > did. After a while, you can send directly to the lists, just as George and Alice did before. > George was surprised that I never got replies back in regards to > questions I had asked. Any time you don't get a reply from me, please resend directly to me, with !@! starting the subject line. . .keep resending. > I think that a team effort is probably best since I > do not want to take over MH's portion of the newsletter. This can either be totally your own newsletter edition, or we can work together, however you like it best, or we can even keep doing separate newsletters. > The part I would do would probably not be very large and would hopefully > mostly consist of features sent in by others. I would act as an editor, not > a writer. As I understand it, we are talking about editors here, and an > editor simply fixes errors in text written by others. I might write a > paragraph editorial, but I am not one for verbosity in my writing. You might upset some editors there, I just had some flaming responses from a few last month when they said this is only proofreading, not editing. This sounds as if you would not be comfortable doing the entire thing. Just let us know what is best for you. > The only other difficulty I could see is that I would probably prefer to send > my portion out on Tuesday or Wednesday nights as opposed to Wednesday at If you send to me Tuesday nights, I can work that in at Wednesday noon, should be just fine. > noon. This means that I would have to receive submissions by Tuesday > afternoon so I could fix them in time. That would be subject to change of > course and would depend on how much material I would get. If I have a > regular group of submitters such as someone to report on DP, someone to > review a book or two and someone to comment on a particularly interesting > book posted in the last week, I would definitely set my deadline for each > week to Tuesday morning. If I only have something trickle in on an irregular > basis, this could be extended to Tuesday at midnight or early Wednesday > morning. You are free to make your own deadlines for yourself, and for submissions. > I realize that posting the newsletter to the lists on this time > schedule doesn't comply with the PG policy of posting all parts by noon on > Wednesday, but the new books part is produced automatically now and I would > not really be dealing with that at all, so I don't think my portion is as > time-sensitive. Anyone creating a newsletter is welcome to their own deadlines, except for the progress reports, which should go on Wed. noons. > If this is something that Michael and Greg would like to see me go further > on, I will try to put something together. I unfortunately can't manage the > newsletter web archives at this time, and again I would not want to do part > one or whatever part becomes MH's portion. We can work that out however we like, don't worry about it. Michael > > At 09:58 AM 5/17/2005 -0700, you wrote: > >> We don't have a set of rules for how an editor should write newsletters, >> each editor, including Alice, George, Greg, and Michael, has simply done >> the newsletters as they think best. You are encouraged to write in any >> manner you like, and to keep writing even when there are others writing, >> no need for only one way of doing things. > From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed May 18 10:30:04 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed May 18 10:30:18 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] so, jim, please tell me what it is that you do Message-ID: <1f3.9fc7a59.2fbcd59c@aol.com> jim said: > And please note, by "regulars" I mean > people who were actually contributing to PG, > who knew what they were talking about from experience, > and who had a stake in the outcome. > Monday-morning Quarterbacks weren't really in evidence. well, jim, since you have said that i am one of the people who don't know what it is that y'all _do_ here, perhaps you would like to explain to us all what it is that you think i fail to comprehend in sufficient detail? because i think i understand it just fine. i even believe i can provide some solutions that you've been unable to provide yourself, such as the he/be thing discussed recently, just to give one concrete example. or, since this thread was talking about the promo boards, a few of the "challenges" that you laid out there, years ago, if you haven't gotten them solved yet. i fully realize that a lot of the people who criticize you and your processes do not fully understand what you're doing, and that wears a person down after a while. but when you put me in that category, i think you are making a big mistake... like the far-too-numerous false-alarms in gutcheck, which cause you to ignore the alarms entirely and therefore miss the times when the alarm was true, i think you've come to ignore everybody's criticism, chalking it up to "you don't know what we do here, and you certainly don't know as much about it as i do", and therefore miss out on some poignant feedback... so by all means, tell me what it is that you do that is so difficult to grasp that i don't get it... -bowerbird From gbnewby at pglaf.org Wed May 18 11:07:46 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Wed May 18 11:07:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] so, jim, please tell me what it is that you do In-Reply-To: <1f3.9fc7a59.2fbcd59c@aol.com> References: <1f3.9fc7a59.2fbcd59c@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050518180746.GB12205@pglaf.org> I'll write a quick intro to what Jim does. Meet Jim: Jim Tinsley is one of the 5 or so main people who do eBook "whitewashing." In other words, he does the final checks and posts eBooks, and announces them via the Posted list (http://lists.pglaf.org). Of currently active Project Gutenberg volunteers, only Jim & Brett Fishburn have been doing this activity longer than me, and I'm the only one who's done it longer than Michael. Jim is the main person (one of just a few) who handle our 20+ error reports each week. He's written some of our key behind-the-scenes programs, such as gutcheck. (Brett and I wrote most of the others.) There are only a handful of people who consistently spend 20+ hours per week on PG, directly contributing to our mission (creation & distribution of literature in electronic form). Combined with such folks who spend most of their time with DP, I'd guess there are 20-30 people in "leadership" roles -- where leading is by *doing*. There are numerous other people who spend that amount of time (or more), but are content with more focused tasks -- like proofreading. Such folks are the backbone. Jim, and the other leaders, are at the helm. And, in the immortal words of Arlo Guthrie, "all you need to do to join" is to contribute your efforts consistently and willingly, and with good capability for interacting with others. Beyond being one of those relatively few people (but there are always openings for more!), Jim is one of our foremost experts in character sets, automated error checking, and a few other topics. -- Greg From marcello at perathoner.de Wed May 18 11:14:31 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed May 18 11:15:19 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for Consideration. In-Reply-To: <20050518113439.44990.qmail@web33014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050518113439.44990.qmail@web33014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <428B8607.9030401@perathoner.de> Jonathan Ingram wrote: > --- Marcello Perathoner wrote: > >>Jonathan Ingram wrote: >> >> >>>Sadly the overly long length of modern copyright terms mean that we won't >> >>see a >> >>>large influx of public domain computer programming material for a while. >> >>Many FSF books are copylefted. > > > Indeed, but this is a very different thing from being public domain. We distribute a lot of books that are not PD. Practically copyleft is the same as if the author grants PG the right to distribute the book. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed May 18 11:41:48 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed May 18 11:42:01 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] so, jim, please tell me what it is that you do Message-ID: greg said: > I'll write a quick intro to what Jim does. Meet Jim: thanks, greg. but i know what jim does. i've known what jim does for a long time. i'm even one of a probably-small number of people who has gone through the source-code of gutcheck and chuckled at jim's humorous comments there... i'm sure jim does _more_ than i know about, perhaps even more than you know about, greg, but of the things you've told us that he does, all of those are things that _i_ already knew... i don't know how many hours jim spends doing it, but he does _so_much_ that i would be _amazed_ if he wasn't spending lots and lots of hours doing it. i don't know how he finds enough to do it all, frankly. i wasn't knocking jim, and his valuable contributions. but he was knocking me. so i wanted to know why. more to the point, though, i think jim was saying that i don't understand what _everyone_ there does -- not just him personally -- and he might have meant a "mission statement" sense as well as actual tasks. (or maybe not, i'm only speculating.) again, while i am sure there is a dizzying array of a myriad of tasks necessary to keep the big machine whirring away, some of which i am blithely unaware, i firmly believe that i have a _very_ solid grasp of steps necessary to digitize a paper-copy of a book into a full-fledged, high-powered electronic-book, and to do that in the high-volume way intended to create the cyberspace library of the future which will make every book available to every person in every place on the globe at every hour of every day. furthermore, i've had a very solid grasp on all that for several decades now. but i'm still not too old of a dog to learn new tricks, if you can teach any... so teach, if you think there's something i need to learn. because _i_ am always willing to hear someone tell me the things that they think that _i_ need to hear... -bowerbird From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed May 18 11:45:27 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed May 18 11:45:44 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: 20+ hours per week on PG Message-ID: <82.2852db1e.2fbce747@aol.com> greg said: > There are only a handful of people who > consistently spend 20+ hours per week on PG i just had to respond briefly to this statement. there are a few dozen people over at distributed proofreaders who report they work anywhere from 20-40 hours each week... -bowerbird From collin at xs4all.nl Wed May 18 13:12:56 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Wed May 18 13:00:04 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for Consideration. In-Reply-To: <428B8607.9030401@perathoner.de> References: <20050518113439.44990.qmail@web33014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <428BBDE8.29876.2141A88@localhost> > Jonathan Ingram wrote: > > --- Marcello Perathoner wrote: > >>Jonathan Ingram wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Sadly the overly long length of modern copyright terms mean that we > >>>won't see a large influx of public domain computer programming > >>>material for a while. > >> > >>Many FSF books are copylefted. > > > > Indeed, but this is a very different thing from being public domain. We need copyrighted books, because in a hundred years, when their copyright has run out, we will be the only ones still publishing them. PG is not just a library, it is also an archive. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From collin at xs4all.nl Wed May 18 13:12:56 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Wed May 18 13:00:07 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] so, jim, please tell me what it is that you do In-Reply-To: <20050518180746.GB12205@pglaf.org> References: <1f3.9fc7a59.2fbcd59c@aol.com> Message-ID: <428BBDE8.32735.2141A6B@localhost> On 18 May 2005, at 11:07, Greg Newby wrote: [snip] You are talking to the troll. Please stop. If you want to interact with the troll somehow, I stand by my earlier recommendation: moderate it. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From jwaddell at spunge.org Wed May 18 13:24:50 2005 From: jwaddell at spunge.org (jwaddell@spunge.org) Date: Wed May 18 13:25:03 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Policing the list In-Reply-To: <428B605D.10068.A6A7DC@localhost> References: <428B605D.10068.A6A7DC@localhost> Message-ID: <2163.216.81.37.40.1116447890.squirrel@216.81.37.40> I guess Mr. Branko Collin will never see this since he has apparently filtered me [along with a number of other people] out of his world. Curiouser, and curioser.....I wonder what he's missed due to his chosen blindness.....[perhaps nothing important] hmmmm. By the way, I'm quite a newbie as far as contributing to Gutenburg is concerned, I wonder if my previous questions such 1) the proper way to take a physical book in my possession and get it transcibed into gutenburg 2) is there a digital camera I can get that will be able to take pictures to run through ocr properly or is a flatbed scanner the only viable method. And I'm sure I've asked other questions that seemed to fall on deaf ears, perhaps now I know why.... So my question becomes: how do I use this list for the discussion of PG if the people currently involved in PG ignore me because I was once inconsiderate enough to engage someone who was using the list (even if their usage is considered a hazard to most user's of the list)? For now I will stay on this list in the hopes that I'll be able to contribute both to it and to the project as a whole.... It may be that it's only a pipe dream and I'll have to find some other way to utilize my limited time. Sincerely, Jeff Waddell jwaddell@spunge.org > > I started filtering out the flunkeys, and currently have the > following addresses in my blocklist: Shimmin, Jon Noring, JWaddell, > Gutenberg9443, Joshua, CannonA, Brandon, and Doug Schroeder. These > are all people who felt it necessary to engage with the Bird and make > this list a worse place to be, when instead they could have shown > constraint. From geoff.horton at gmail.com Wed May 18 13:30:52 2005 From: geoff.horton at gmail.com (Geoff Horton) Date: Wed May 18 13:31:03 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Policing the list In-Reply-To: <2163.216.81.37.40.1116447890.squirrel@216.81.37.40> References: <428B605D.10068.A6A7DC@localhost> <2163.216.81.37.40.1116447890.squirrel@216.81.37.40> Message-ID: <94e5f59605051813307ccd1e4b@mail.gmail.com> > 2) is there a digital > camera I can get that will be able to take pictures to run through ocr > properly or is a flatbed scanner the only viable method. Here's one way to use a camera to prep material for OCR: http://www.geoffhorton.com/pictureocr/instructions.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed May 18 14:38:48 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed May 18 14:39:03 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] bowerbird addresses jon noring's "challenges" Message-ID: ok, let me get to jon's "challenges" before i'm banned here... :+) yes, it's long. as the saying goes, "the difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer." jon says that what i am doing is "impossible". as you'll see, it's just a determined application of some good old common sense... but explaining it all made this long. sorry. if you don't feel like reading it, just go on to the next post. but then don't come around crying later, saying i didn't explain it... *** jon said: > For an example of this "multiple uses of the same typography", > the venerable "italics" is a good one. Italics are used for: > linguistic emphasis > literal emphasis (not the same as linguistic emphasis!) > names of ships > titles of certain types of books and documents > word used as a word > foreign phrases > sometimes used for headers > etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. ,etc., etc., etc. well, my first reaction is that you've got a pretty good list going there, jon, i'm impressed. italics certainly seem to be a workhorse, don't they? my second reaction is, wow, this list must just be the tip of the iceberg! because _look_ at all those etc.s at the end of the list! even one etc. means that "there are more items in this list", so _8_ (count 'em, 8!) must mean that there are _lots_and_lots_ of more items in this list! so now you've got my curiosity inflamed, jon! please, could you give us the _complete_ list, the one that has all of those etc.s fully delineated? considering how overloaded italics are, how do humans figure them out? but you know what? we do. personally, i can't remember a single time -- not a single one -- where i was ever _confused_ about why something was italicized. so of course, my response is to "just italicize them as the p-book did, and let the reader sort 'em out, just like the readers of the p-book did". so the full list isn't necessary, jon, except you've really got me curious! i can't even _remember_ the last time i say 8 etc.s in a row like that! as for "accessibility" concerns, i think those readers are just as capable as sighted readers at filling in the semantic inferences of the story, and i will not give them less credit than they deserve. it would be insulting. if sight-impaired readers tell me they want elucidation of these things, i'll be responsive. but in the absence of that, i will assume capability... for the intellectually curious, though, yeah, it would certainly be possible to write routines that could make a good prediction about which one of the possible meanings were the one that was responsible for the italics. and with the right set of look-up tables, the predictions might be sharp. in that regard, aside from "signs" in the current case, a block element would include: notes, invitations, death-threats, placards, notices, flyers, correspondence, diary-entries, suicide-notes, love-letters, cease-and-desist notices, warnings, equations, eviction notices, lyrics, poems, newspaper-clippings, quotations, out-of-order signs, magazine/journal articles, pull-quotes, ledgers, tables, and what else? *** so this italics example is like other variables that _freak_jon_out_, and which would be terribly expensive and time-consuming to code, but for which there is _simply_no_demand_from_the_users_ to have, so it makes no sense for us to worry about doing the coding of them. for the few people -- academics or dilettantes or pedants or whatever -- who are concerned with this specificity of detail, let _them_ do the work. *** in spite of lots more verbiage about how the whole idea is impossible, jon's only other real "challenge" was involving the detection of headers. first of all, let me say that people are very good at recognizing headers, just as they are very good at figuring out the specific reason for italics within the context of a story. so one form of my reaction could be to say, "don't worry about it, because the readers be able to figure it out fine." however, the headers in a book _do_ need to be detectable by a viewer-app, to make them big and bold, create a hotlinked table of contents, and so on. so, for headers, we _do_ need to think about how they can be signified. fortunately, this is very easy to do. zen markup language call for headers to be indicated unequivocally by a set of 4 or more empty lines preceding them, so detection is simple. use more and fewer blank lines to indicate headers of different levels. problem solved. a hotlinked table of contents is created automatically, and placed in a "contents" menu on the menubar for further convenience; headers are displayed in big and bold text, just like readers expect, and sections begin on fresh screens in the best practice of typography, etc. of course, this requires that the person who creates the digitized text takes a concrete action on each header -- i.e., puts in those blank lines. since that's such a dirt-simple task, i don't consider it to be a big deal. it shouldn't take but just a few minutes, even in a rather-complex book; time well spent in the _4_hours_ i allotted to digitize the average book. besides, in the grand tradition of "zen markup language" philosophy, these blank lines are _something_that_people_already_do_anyway_, for the most part. it's only natural to give a header "breathing room". it feels like the right thing to do. indeed, one of the formatting rules for project gutenberg e-texts is to precede a header with blank lines. although i don't recall what the guidelines specify about the _number_ of blank lines to use -- especially with headers of different levels -- most e-texts end up being able to be evaluated by using this variable... *** jon _might_ have been referring to auto-recognition in o.c.r. output. no problem. because headers _are_ so important, i spent some time on recognizing them, and it ends up that i can now handle that very well too. if you've scanned the book with the right settings, the information about the "space above" a specific line -- in terms of number of blank lines -- might well be available to your routines, so they can judge on that basis. but even if that information is missing -- as, for instance, it is when you copy text out of a .pdf, which often loses all info about blank lines -- it's still possible to evaluate a line to determine whether it's a header. my program has a 30-item checklist to determine if a line is a header, and -- even though i haven't optimized it yet -- it works like a charm... i'll eventually run it against the p.g. library, and check its performance. maybe i'll find i don't even need to optimize it. but if i do, then i will. (the optimization would involve a multiple-regression on the 30 items; in the non-optimized checklist, most items are weighted fairly equally.) in regard to jon's made-up example, i don't usually bother to deal with fabricated tests, because they are easily manipulated, and my concern is how well my routines work on actual e-texts, not on fake examples. nonetheless, jon's examples look to be representative of real-life text, so i will answer them. i won't give full details on the whole checklist, because i'm still debating whether or not to keep it as "a trade secret". but i can reveal enough of it to deal with the two examples jon gives. so let's look at jon's first example: > Here's one very small example to illustrate what I'm saying: > > (exhibit 1 -- I made this up, inspired by Sherlock Holmes) > > ****************************************************** > > ... she walked up to the door, and on the door was a small sign with > a message in stark, bold black letters which read: > > NO SOLICITORS OR SALES PEOPLE > > Ignoring the sign as if it wasn't there, she knocked on the door, > intending to make the sale... > > ********************************************************* this example -- which is not a header, but a sign -- is recognizable to my checklist as not-a-header, because the paragraph that precedes it ends in a colon. if a paragraph ends with a colon, that indicates that some kind of block-text follows, so we can be assured that that section has not been terminated. real paragraphs simply do not end with a colon. i made this point over on one of the forums at distributed proofreaders, when people were wondering what to do in the absence of typographical indication of a block-quote. although the item -- a diary entry -- was clearly understood by a reader to be distinct from the regular body-text, it was set in the same type, so the question was whether it should be marked as a block-quote. it ends up the typographical indication _was_ indeed present -- and big as day in that colon -- they just didn't see it, because they weren't knowledgeable about this typographical nicety... *** > (exhibit 2; adapted from an Encylopaedia Britannica article) > > ********************************************************* > > ...Government weakness allowed the mutiny to spread; and although > order was eventually restored in Istanbul and more quickly elsewhere, > a force from Macedonia (the Action Army) led by Mahmud Sevket Pasa > marched on Istanbul and occupied the city (April 24). > > DISSOLUTION OF THE EMPIRE > > Abdulhamid was deposed and replaced by Sultan Mehmed V (ruled > 1909-18), son of Abdulmecid. The constitution was amended to transfer > real power to the Parliament... > > ********************************************************* jon reports this is a header, and it would almost certainly be recognized as such by my 30-item checklist, since it fits very many of the criteria. there does remain a possibility that it would be judged not-a-header, depending on if the other lines in the file that are judged to be headers exhibited similarities to this one. my thrust is to look not just at a line in isolation, but within the context of all lines (and headers) in the file, since headers almost always bear some kind of similarity to each other, particularly headers at the same level. however, given the information that i have, for this line in isolation, yes, i would likely call it a header. there is another consideration here as well that might have relevance. given an outline-structure that includes several _levels_ of headers, some minor-level headings might not get full "header" treatment, e.g., they might not start on a new page, or be listed in the table of contents. (a table of contents that stretches over more than 4 pages starts to lose its value as a tool that gives the reader an overview of the book. in that case, the main table of contents would include major sections, and then each major section would start with its sub-contents page. sorry to get so picayune here, but remember that i was "challenged".) since jon "adapted" this from an encyclopedia article, that is likely to be the case here. this line certainly isn't a major-level heading, but it's impossible to know where it fits in the hierarchy of levels, not without solid reference to a fuller analysis of the entire file. whether or not this line might be one of those minor-level headings is something i cannot say without knowing the outline of the whole book. but i include it here to give you an idea of the depth of my analyses... back to the line, though, and the things that help identify it as a header. some obvious indicators from the checklist that i can mention here are the all-caps nature of the line, the absence of trailing punctuation, and -- as you should've gleaned -- a properly-closed paragraph preceding it. *** i'll end with an observation. when i set out to create my header checklist, i expected there might be a half-dozen indicators. i found two-and-a-half. thus i found the task is surprisingly simple. in retrospect, i realized why. headers are -- by their very essence -- _intended_to_be_conspicuous_. if a header doesn't "stick out", it is -- by definition -- not doing its job. because they are _designed_ to be obvious, they become very easy to find. indeed, this allowed me to develop a brain-dead way to find the headers -- and in the process of doing so, create an outline of the publication -- one that works with surprising efficiency with all kinds of documents: delete all the lines from the book with any non-bold characters, and the lines that remain will likely constitute the book's outline. try it some time, with any kind of document -- paper or electronic; for instance, although i couldn't get to the site to confirm it, in the past i have found that this approach works perfectly on noring's own website: > http://www.xml-ebook.org/group/xml-ebook-guidelines.html pulling out the oversized text is another good way to go about the task. of course, once you've thought about it, it's rather obvious -- is it not? -- that headers tend to be big and/or bold. in retrospect, it's all too simple. that observation made me think that structures which were trying to be _inconspicuous_ might be the ones that were really the hard ones to find. but i was wrong about this. it ends up that, if you consciously _look_for_ the lines that are trying to be "inconspicuous", they're easy to find as well. a good example is _footnotes_. they _try_ to hide, putting themselves at the bottom of the page, and rendering themselves in a smaller point-size. pretty sneaky little devils, aren't they? but not too smart, it ends up. because if you _look_ for inconspicuous -- small type, at page-bottom -- it's remarkably easy to find footnotes too. even if you have stripped out the fontsize information from your o.c.r. file -- which, just by the way, is an _incredibly_stupid_ thing to do, even though many "experts" do it, including the good people over at distributed proofreaders -- you can _still_ recognize the footnotes easily, since their smaller type meant that their lines end up having more characters than a line of body-text. so if you count the characters, to look for longish lines, there they are! (this assumes that you've kept the original linebreaks, which the good people over at distributed proofreaders _do_, but other "experts" do not. what can i say?, except that if you make _enough_ stupid decisions, yes, you too _can_ make the digitization job _difficult_, if you _want_ to...) *** anyway, jon, i hope that answers your "challenge" on header-recognition. it's an easy task. i know you've spent years telling people that it is hard, that it's a job requiring "artificial intelligence" that will not be available for the next two or three decades -- "if then" -- but you are plain wrong. indeed, i put up an entry in my blog some time back on this very topic, announcing "the fastest-growing quiz sensation in america", which is the game "am i a header?", where i ask people to submit lines to me and have me guess whether or not that line is a header. come play sometime! my blog is at: http://journals.aol.com/bowerbird/bowerbirdseyeview oh, and jon, if you have any more "challenges" for me, let me know, but hurry up, because you never know when i'll be banned from here. oh, and also, if you ever want to take up my "challenge" to you, and mark up that test-suite of mine, you should -- of course -- feel free. and i'm still waiting for that list, from you and/or networker, on what kinds of semantic structures you think need to be marked up. -bowerbird p.s. it wasn't my "logic" that john ockerbloom had a problem with. he just didn't want me to say that "my resolution for 2005 is to get off of the jon noring merry-go-round, because it's so senseless to keep on debating the same old stuff over and over and over and over." but since people _here_ want you and i to get off the merry-go-round, i'm guessing their only objection is that i haven't done a better job of keeping my resolution... From nwolcott at dsdial.net Wed May 18 17:13:33 2005 From: nwolcott at dsdial.net (N Wolcott) Date: Wed May 18 17:15:07 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Sayonara Message-ID: <010001c55c07$c336c480$609495ce@gw98> At least it will be as soon as I find out how to. N Wolcott nwolcott2@post.harvard.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050518/0055cafb/attachment-0001.html From JBuck814366460 at aol.com Wed May 18 18:24:49 2005 From: JBuck814366460 at aol.com (Jared Buck) Date: Wed May 18 18:25:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Sayonara In-Reply-To: <010001c55c07$c336c480$609495ce@gw98> References: <010001c55c07$c336c480$609495ce@gw98> Message-ID: <428BEAE1.7050202@aol.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050518/54b4caec/attachment.html From cannona at fireantproductions.com Thu May 19 08:26:30 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Thu May 19 08:29:06 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Policing the list In-Reply-To: <2163.216.81.37.40.1116447890.squirrel@216.81.37.40> References: <428B605D.10068.A6A7DC@localhost> <2163.216.81.37.40.1116447890.squirrel@216.81.37.40> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050519101106.03032930@mail.fireantproductions.com> I encourage you to stick around. There is a lot of garbage on this list, but things do get done here as well. No really. They do. :) Also, as to your first question (not sure if you've been answered yet or not, nor how much information your looking for) the process is quite simple. First you clear the copyright by submitting the images of the TP&V. Then you decide whether you want to produce the book your self or not. If you don't want to do it your self, you can send it off to Distributed Proofers, and they will slice it up, scan it, and run it through the site (eventually; they've got a nice backlog going out there). If you want to do it your self, then you've got a lot of options. You can type it, scan it, or whatever else you'd care to do to get it into the computer. Then get it proofed a couple times (preferably at least once by someone other than yourself) and then submit it with the clearance line for posting. Like I said, I don't know if this is the kind of information you were looking for, but if you have any further questions, don't hesitate to ask. You might also take a look at the FAQ. http://www.gutenberg.org/faq/ Sincerely Aaron Cannon At 03:24 PM 5/18/2005, you wrote: >I guess Mr. Branko Collin will never see this since he has apparently >filtered me [along with a number of other people] out of his world. >Curiouser, and curioser.....I wonder what he's missed due to his chosen >blindness.....[perhaps nothing important] hmmmm. By the way, I'm quite a >newbie as far as contributing to Gutenburg is concerned, I wonder if my >previous questions such 1) the proper way to take a physical book in my >possession and get it transcibed into gutenburg 2) is there a digital >camera I can get that will be able to take pictures to run through ocr >properly or is a flatbed scanner the only viable method. And I'm sure >I've asked other questions that seemed to fall on deaf ears, perhaps now I >know why.... > >So my question becomes: how do I use this list for the discussion of PG >if the people currently involved in PG ignore me because I was once >inconsiderate enough to engage someone who was using the list (even if >their usage is considered a hazard to most user's of the list)? For now I >will stay on this list in the hopes that I'll be able to contribute both >to it and to the project as a whole.... It may be that it's only a pipe >dream and I'll have to find some other way to utilize my limited time. > >Sincerely, > >Jeff Waddell >jwaddell@spunge.org > > > > > > I started filtering out the flunkeys, and currently have the > > following addresses in my blocklist: Shimmin, Jon Noring, JWaddell, > > Gutenberg9443, Joshua, CannonA, Brandon, and Doug Schroeder. These > > are all people who felt it necessary to engage with the Bird and make > > this list a worse place to be, when instead they could have shown > > constraint. > > > > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) From cannona at fireantproductions.com Thu May 19 08:53:15 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Thu May 19 09:27:29 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] newsletter editors In-Reply-To: <4289F0BC.8060508@mwt.net> References: <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> <42885AF5.E299CDA2@ibiblio.org> <20050516163307.GD1372@pglaf.org> <4288CE29.9020304@perathoner.de> <20050516175420.GA5471@pglaf.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20050517001045.02b7e6d0@baechler.net> <4289F0BC.8060508@mwt.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050519105142.01cb2e28@mail.fireantproductions.com> In case you all are unaware, there is a wiki setup for the purpose of editing the newsletter. Not sure if this helps, but just thought I'd mention it. Sincerely Aaron Cannon At 08:25 AM 5/17/2005, you wrote: >Tony, > >I just sent a draft to Michael for the newsletter yesterday. A little >reorganization, cleaning up mostly. But I like your ideas. Perhaps a team >is the answer... Anyway, I too lack the responses to know what all to do. >But I think Michael is just after some rough drafts to get an idea if the >volunteer volunteering can actually do the job before handing it over. So >send him something. > >Forgive the possible double posting of both you and the list. But my posts >don't seem to go through to the list in most of the time.-erin > >Tony Baechler wrote: > >>Hi. Michael Hart is requesting people to fill in for him to do part >>one. My understanding is that he wants someone to take it over >>entirely. Personally, I miss the former portion done by Alice Wood. >>I would still be interested in editing this part of the newsletter, but >>people stopped responding to my email. I was in communication with Greg, >>Michael and a few others but I was never told what I was supposed to do >>or how. I gathered that I was supposed to draft something, but I was >>never told just how this would be sent to the list or if I was allowed to >>post to the newsletter list. I almost never read part one now either >>because it isn't organized well and is mostly a boiler plate of the same >>thing in every weekly issue. I would like to informally interview DP >>people, posters, book producers, etc on a weekly or monthly >>basis. Nothing fancy, just something less formal than a full >>interview. Hopefully some clear guidelines can be given to me to work >>out something like this. I think there is still room for more from the >>PG newsletter if it is done and organized correctly. >> >>At 12:15 PM 5/16/2005 -0700, you wrote: >> >>>Given that Part 2 of the weekly newsletter is now generated >>>automatically, and Part 1 ("Founder's Comments") is written/compiled >>>by Michael Hart, it's unclear what a newsletter editor would *do*. >>>Is there a job description somewhere? >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>gutvol-d mailing list >>gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >>http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d >> > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) From cannona at fireantproductions.com Thu May 19 09:25:32 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Thu May 19 09:27:32 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Policing the list In-Reply-To: <428B605D.10068.A6A7DC@localhost> References: <428B605D.10068.A6A7DC@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050519112247.030d2458@mail.fireantproductions.com> LOL! That must make the list extremely quiet. :)Still, I can't say that I blame you. Wait, I'm on that list. In that case, who am I talking to? Aaron Cannon At 08:33 AM 5/18/2005, you wrote: >I started filtering out the flunkeys, and currently have the >following addresses in my blocklist: Shimmin, Jon Noring, JWaddell, >Gutenberg9443, Joshua, CannonA, Brandon, and Doug Schroeder. These >are all people who felt it necessary to engage with the Bird and make >this list a worse place to be, when instead they could have shown >constraint. > >The reason I am for policing still is because new list members of >course don't know the trolls yet, and so may unwittingly engage in >unnecessary flame wars. By moderating the trolls, you make it easier >for the others to behave. > >Just my 2 cents, of course. > > >-- >branko collin >collin@xs4all.nl >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu May 19 09:38:45 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Thu May 19 09:39:27 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Policing the list Message-ID: <143.454c065d.2fbe1b15@aol.com> branko said: > I started filtering out the flunkeys, and currently > have the following addresses in my blocklist: > Shimmin, Jon Noring, JWaddell, Gutenberg9443, > Joshua, CannonA, Brandon, and Doug Schroeder. you forgot marcello and david starner, two of my favorites. -bowerbird From hart at pglaf.org Thu May 19 10:23:36 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu May 19 10:23:38 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Policing the list In-Reply-To: <2163.216.81.37.40.1116447890.squirrel@216.81.37.40> References: <428B605D.10068.A6A7DC@localhost> <2163.216.81.37.40.1116447890.squirrel@216.81.37.40> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005 jwaddell@spunge.org wrote: > I guess Mr. Branko Collin will never see this since he has apparently > filtered me [along with a number of other people] out of his world. > Curiouser, and curioser.....I wonder what he's missed due to his chosen > blindness.....[perhaps nothing important] hmmmm. By the way, I'm quite a > newbie as far as contributing to Gutenburg is concerned, I wonder if my > previous questions such 1) the proper way to take a physical book in my > possession and get it transcibed into gutenburg 2) is there a digital > camera I can get that will be able to take pictures to run through ocr > properly or is a flatbed scanner the only viable method. And I'm sure > I've asked other questions that seemed to fall on deaf ears, perhaps now I > know why.... > > So my question becomes: how do I use this list for the discussion of PG > if the people currently involved in PG ignore me because I was once > inconsiderate enough to engage someone who was using the list (even if > their usage is considered a hazard to most user's of the list)? For now I > will stay on this list in the hopes that I'll be able to contribute both > to it and to the project as a whole.... It may be that it's only a pipe > dream and I'll have to find some other way to utilize my limited time. Use the list as you see fit, as everyone else does. However, some see fit to try to decide how others will use the list, and that doesn't fly nearly as well as Branko's solution of simply ignoring those he doesn't want to see. Noring has his own eBook list on which I participate, but I notice that not all my contributions make it to the list with any notice that "moderation" was taking place. I think Bowerbird also has his own place, but not technically a listserv. In any case, if you want to be sure _I_ see a message, just start the subject line with !@! and keep resending until I answer; not all emails get here promptly. . .yesterday while I was on the phone with Greg Newby one of his messages from May 8 came through, and it was sent from the same machine I use for email, so go fiture. email is NOT 100%. . .sorry to say. So. . .the real answer is just do as you think best, and 99% of the time that will be ok. Michael > > Sincerely, > > Jeff Waddell > jwaddell@spunge.org > > >> >> I started filtering out the flunkeys, and currently have the >> following addresses in my blocklist: Shimmin, Jon Noring, JWaddell, >> Gutenberg9443, Joshua, CannonA, Brandon, and Doug Schroeder. These >> are all people who felt it necessary to engage with the Bird and make >> this list a worse place to be, when instead they could have shown >> constraint. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From hart at pglaf.org Thu May 19 11:01:33 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu May 19 11:01:34 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Severe Resistance to EBooks. In-Reply-To: <428B5BF4.10745.956D55@localhost> References: <428B5BF4.10745.956D55@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005, Branko Collin wrote: > > On 18 May 2005, at 7:58, rvijay07 wrote: >> Branko Collin collin at xs4all.nl wrote: >> >>>>> I think annecdotal evidence is no evidence at all. It is useless >>>>> to >> discuss the growing or lessening popularity of ebooks in general based >> on a few of Vijay's personal observations. >> >>>>> Those personal observations can be fun to talk about in their own >> right, but they are not evidence of a trend. >> >> Very true of the above and agreed. I have also read about postts on >> web-sites in regards to people preferring real books and to stay away >> from ebooks as they are not good for eyes. So as a NEWBIE, I just >> wanted to know more in this regard from those with more experience. > > I read a story once about a Distributed Proofreaders volunteer who > got into a conversation on a plane with the lady sitting next to him. > It turned out that the stack of papers on her lap was actually a book > she had printed out from Project Gutenberg. IIRC, it was a book that > she had looked for for a long time, but could not find, until it > turned up at PG. Anecdotal evidence is better than none, particularly when the "solid" evidence has been based on a small sample, as it usually is. Here is one example of how this can go both ways: A decade or so ago I gave to presentations in the same lecture hall in the same month, each time to over 300 people. As usual, one of the first things I do is to ask, "How many of you know about Project Gutenberg before signing up for this conference?" In the first case, virtually everyone raised their hands, which was a total shock to me. I found out later that at least one person had not raised his hand. I was elated. . .!!! But it didn't last for long. . . . The next time not a single hand went up!!! I just goes to show you not to be fooled even by large samples. Last week a good friend gave just such a presentation in Fresno, to a small room full of librarians, and she was shocked to find that not one of them was familiar with eBooks, much less PG. During another conversation on this subject with someone at Ohio State, I mentioned that I presumed no one there knew PG since I had never received any emails from anyone@osu.edu The response was that she simply stuck her head out the door and asked very quietly [librarian voice] down the hallway if anyone was familiar with PG. . .and over a dozen positive responses came immediately, and a few more later from those who were engaged on the phone at the time. So, whatever you hear, I would take it with a grain of salt. ;-) Michael From rvijay07 at myway.com Thu May 19 15:33:12 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Thu May 19 15:33:51 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Article: Paperbooks on their way out. Message-ID: <20050519223312.5F15D60360@mprdmxin.myway.com> I am posting this in regards to my post Severe resistance to EBooks. This article paints an entirely different story. http://www.abqtrib.com/albq/bu_columnists/article/0,2565,ALBQ_19837_3776298,00.html Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From erinm at mwt.net Thu May 19 16:22:13 2005 From: erinm at mwt.net (Erin M) Date: Thu May 19 16:20:26 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] test mail Message-ID: <428D1FA5.4010003@mwt.net> please don't reply. thanks! From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu May 19 21:08:54 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Thu May 19 21:09:38 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: why do you think Message-ID: jim said: > why do you think that was a reference to _you_? well, because in an earlier post (sunday, may 15, 2:18pm), you said: > Thanks for trying, Melissa, but I'm afraid that > neither Jon nor Bowerbird, in their very different ways, > actually understand what we're doing here why did you say that, jim? what is it that you think i don't understand about what you are doing here? -bowerbird From rvijay07 at myway.com Fri May 20 00:02:37 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Fri May 20 00:03:19 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] My Challenges with EBook Readers. Message-ID: <20050520070237.EB905603F6@mprdmxin.myway.com> I tried to get a few EBook Readers. So far not one off them worked. Trying to get more technical help at this site: http://tinyurl.com/8g826 If anyone has any comments here, they are welcome. VJ _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Fri May 20 01:00:53 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Fri May 20 01:01:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Books I like to add to PG. Message-ID: <20050520080053.8978D3955@mprdmxin.myway.com> Knowing Knoppix http://www.pjls16812.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/knowing-knoppix/index.html Great Classic Online Book on Linux http://www.icon.co.za/~psheer/book/index.html Online Unix Course http://wks.uts.ohio-state.edu/unix_course/intro-1.html Fortran Ebooks http://www.engineering.usu.edu/cee/faculty/gurro/Classes/Classes_Fall2002/Fortran77/Fortran77Course.html#Online%20free%20books _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Fri May 20 02:14:37 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Fri May 20 02:15:21 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! Message-ID: <20050520091437.6E78E39F1@mprdmxin.myway.com> "Festival is a general multi-lingual speech synthesis system developed at CSTR. It offers a full text to speech system with various APIs, as well an environment for development and research of speech synthesis techniques. It is written in C++ with a Scheme-based command interpreter for general control." http://freshmeat.net/projects/festival/ Debian users can just go: # apt-get install festival also related package festival-doc Disclaimer: There is a lot of technology out there already. It is for the user to explore, try and customize the software for individual needs. I created a small 4G partition for my Debian OS which is almost full and perhaps this could be one of the reasons that most ebook readers didn't work for me. Also, my PC is over 6 years old and lacks internal/external speakers. So, I can't try this software immediately, but hope to try it down the road. Sharing this info. here for general interest./info./discussion. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From tb at baechler.net Fri May 20 04:09:57 2005 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Fri May 20 04:09:39 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] so, jim, please tell me what it is that you do In-Reply-To: <20050518180746.GB12205@pglaf.org> References: <1f3.9fc7a59.2fbcd59c@aol.com> <1f3.9fc7a59.2fbcd59c@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050520040520.045ab8f0@baechler.net> Hi Greg. Can I borrow this for my draft of the newsletter when I get around to doing it? This is exactly the type of thing I'm looking for. I would be interested in the same type of information about the other whitewashers. Joe, David W, David P and Carlo come immediately to mind, but I'm sure there are others I've overlooked. It would be nice to run something like this as a monthly feature. While this is not yet an official call for newsletter content, if anyone else wants to write something like what Greg wrote or can point me to additional information which I can use, I would appreciate it. Also, I don't intend to leave out the key leaders at DP or just the ordinary volunteers, but since the whitewashers are the ones actually doing the posting, and since I get posts from them regularly on the posted list, it seems like a good place to start. At 11:07 AM 5/18/2005 -0700, you wrote: >I'll write a quick intro to what Jim does. Meet Jim: > >Jim Tinsley is one of the 5 or so main people who do eBook >"whitewashing." In other words, he does the final >checks and posts eBooks, and announces them via >the Posted list (http://lists.pglaf.org). (snip) From sclous at yahoo.com Fri May 20 14:16:27 2005 From: sclous at yahoo.com (Scott Clous) Date: Fri May 20 14:17:20 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] unsubscribe In-Reply-To: <20050518113348.6D1928C912@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <20050520211627.30588.qmail@web31906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- gutvol-d-request@lists.pglaf.org wrote: > Send gutvol-d mailing list submissions to > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > visit > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to > gutvol-d-request@lists.pglaf.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > gutvol-d-owner@lists.pglaf.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it > is more specific > than "Re: Contents of gutvol-d digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: PGTEI and prposed future-tech-developments > group/forum > (was "Dear Jon") (Marcello Perathoner) > 2. re: FREE CD/DVD info. request. > (Bowerbird@aol.com) > 3. Technical Collection for Consideration. > (rvijay07) > 4. RE: no, the problem is (Jonathan Ingram) > 5. Re: Technical Collection for Consideration. > (Jonathan Ingram) > 6. Re: Technical Collection for Consideration. > (rvijay07) > 7. Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! > (rvijay07) > 8. Re: Severe Resistance to EBooks. (Branko > Collin) > 9. Bye Bye (Tom Harris) > 10. Re: Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! > (Branko Collin) > 11. Re: Technical Collection for Consideration. > (Branko Collin) > 12. Re: Technical Collection for Consideration. > (Marcello Perathoner) > 13. Re: PG Forums (Jim Tinsley) > > From: Marcello Perathoner > To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion > > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:32:49 +0200 > Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and prposed > future-tech-developments group/forum > (was "Dear Jon") > > Branko Collin wrote: > > >>>Where again is the site hosting the latest PGTEI > documents (and DTD > >>>if one has been put together)? (This request is > not only for me, but > >>>for others interested in PGTEI.) > >> > >>Start at: > >> > >> http://www.gutenberg.org/tei/ > > > > The other day there was a flurry of PGTEIization > at Distributed > > Proofreaders. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to > host the results at > > http://www.gutenberg.org/tei/ too. > > I'd prefer to host only milestone documents and not > ongoing discussions > on the web site. > > That said, where are the results of that > digiTEIzation, so I can take a > look? > > > > -- > Marcello Perathoner > webmaster@gutenberg.org > > > > From: Bowerbird@aol.com > CC: > To: gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org, Bowerbird@aol.com > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 04:17:43 EDT > Subject: re: [gutvol-d] FREE CD/DVD info. request. > > > on the d.v.d. i got, the links to the e-texts > from the author/title .html indexes fail... > > i didn't even try to figure out why, because > i can manage, but if this is a problem that > everyone has, it probably should be fixed... > > -bowerbird > > > From: "rvijay07" > To: gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 04:29:53 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for > Consideration. > > > One of the drawbacks of PG is that it is considered > mainly a fiction/literature type collection. In this > regard it is good to add some Technical Books. The > easiest way to do this would be to > (a) Harvest Technical Books that are already hosted > on other sites and then add them here. Proofreading > them based on user feedback is suggested. > (b) Provide a link to such a Project on PG. > > In this regard here is one site for consideration: > http://www.freeprogrammingresources.com > > Lots of EBooks and other materials for programmers. > Created/Maintained by a very enthusiastic person. > > Vijay > > _______________________________________________ > No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. > Make My Way your home on the Web - > http://www.myway.com > > > > > From: Jonathan Ingram > To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion > > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 02:33:01 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: RE: [gutvol-d] no, the problem is > > --- Doug Schroeder wrote: > > bowerturkey: > > > > > there are some problems with the d.p. workflow > > > -- some rather glaring ones, when you consider > > > how many people are laboring under those flows, > > > > Key issue, people are working. You (and I) are > not. > > Aside from the mudslinging, I thought I'd mention > that the workflow at DP will > be changing soon. Until now, books have done through > two general proofing > rounds. This is now being split into 2 pure > proofreading rounds, and 2 > formatting-and-final-overview rounds. This is > because we're now processing > books which require a lot of formatting, and we find > that people find it > difficult to concentrate both on proofreading and > formatting. After this > transition has been successfully completed, we will > introduce further > mini-rounds for specific content (Greek, tables, > music, etc.) which requires > specific talents to proofread. > > -- > Jon Ingram > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > From: Jonathan Ingram > CC: > To: rvijay07@myway.com, > Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion > > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 02:41:04 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for > Consideration. > > --- rvijay07 wrote: > > > > One of the drawbacks of PG is that it is > considered mainly a > > fiction/literature type collection. In this regard > it is good to add some > > Technical Books. > > While the site you link to has some interesting > content, I'd prefer to see PG > remain primarily a repository of public domain > material -- and this in no way > stops us from increasing the amount of non-fiction > texts. Indeed, there are > many non-fiction texts going through DP at the > moment, in many subject areas, > from dictionaries to bell-ringing, cookery to > history. > > Sadly the overly long length of modern copyright > terms mean that we won't see a > large influx of public domain computer programming > material for a while. > > -- > Jon Ingram > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > From: "rvijay07" > CC: gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > To: jonathan_ingram@yahoo.com > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:30:08 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for > Consideration. > > > There are Linux Books that are sold as HardCopy but > the EBooks are free to distribute I believe. > > Also, since the other site is distributing these > books without trouble, wouldn't it be safe to assume > that these IT EBooks are also > Public Domain ? If they can be verified to be Public > Domain, then can't they be hosted here ? > > Thanks. > > Vijay > > > > --- On Wed 05/18, Jonathan Ingram < > jonathan_ingram@yahoo.com > wrote: > From: Jonathan Ingram [mailto: > jonathan_ingram@yahoo.com] > To: rvijay07@myway.com, gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 02:41:04 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for > Consideration. > > --- rvijay07 wrote:
>
> > One of the drawbacks of PG is that it is considered > mainly a
> fiction/literature type collection. In > this regard it is good to add some
> Technical > Books.

While the site you link to has some > interesting content, I'd prefer to see PG
remain > primarily a repository of public domain material -- > and this in no way
stops us from increasing the > amount of non-fiction texts. Indeed, there > are
many non-fiction texts going through DP at > the moment, in many subject areas,
from > dictionaries to bell-ringing, cookery to > history.

Sadly the overly long length of > modern copyright terms mean that we won't see > a
large influx of public domain computer > programming material for a while.

--
Jon > Ingram


__________________________________________________
Do > You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the > best spam protection around >
http://mail.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________ > No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. > Make My Way your home on the Web - > http://www.myway.com > > > > > From: "rvijay07" > To: gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:31:16 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text > Format !!! > > > Has anyone here tried this software ? > http://www.spacejock.com/yRead.html > > Please share your experience/comments. > > Vijay :) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. > Make My Way your home on the Web - > http://www.myway.com > > > > > From: "Branko Collin" > To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion > > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:14:10 +0200 > Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Severe Resistance to EBooks. > > On 17 May 2005, at 22:40, Greg Newby wrote: > > On Tue, May 17, 2005 at 06:00:41PM -0400, rvijay07 > wrote: > > > > > I spoke to about 10 people in the last week that > I personally know. > [snip] > > I question whether this is resistance to eBooks, > or just > > a combination of (a) not liking to read much, or > to read > > older literature; and (b) lack of technical > facility or > > equipment. > > I think annecdotal evidence is no evidence at all. > It is useless to > discuss the growing or lessening popularity of > ebooks in general > based on a few of Vijay's personal observations. > > Those personal observations can be fun to talk about > in their own > right, but they are not evidence of a trend. > > -- > branko collin > collin@xs4all.nl > > > From: "Tom Harris" > To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" > > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:06:09 +1000 > Subject: [gutvol-d] Bye Bye > > Bye Bye, > > This list could be so good, but the pricks have > spoiled it again. I'll give > it a try in another year I suppose. > > I must have proofed 10 books at least for Gutenberg, > why not a list for > proven contributors only? > > Regards > > Tom Harris BeacyBooks beacybooks@bigpond.com > > > > From: "Branko Collin" > To: gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:22:07 +0200 > Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text > Format !!! > > > On 18 May 2005, at 6:31, rvijay07 wrote: > > > Has anyone here tried this software ? > > http://www.spacejock.com/yRead.html > > Please don't post unqualified links, that's rude. > What does the > software you refer to do? What is it called? Why are > you interested > in it? > > -- > branko collin > collin@xs4all.nl > > > From: "Branko Collin" > To: gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:22:07 +0200 > Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for > Consideration. > > > On 18 May 2005, at 4:29, rvijay07 wrote: > > > One of the drawbacks of PG is that it is > considered mainly a > > fiction/literature type collection. > > By whom? Why is that a drawback? > > > In this regard it is good to add some Technical > Books. > > Why? > > > The easiest way to do this would be to (a) > > Harvest Technical Books that are already hosted on > other sites and > > then add them here. Proofreading them based on > user feedback is > > suggested. (b) Provide a link to such a Project on > PG. > > I think people should add whatever they want to add. > If you feel like > adding technical books, please go ahead. > > -- > branko collin > collin@xs4all.nl > > > From: Marcello Perathoner > To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion > > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:11:28 +0200 > Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for > Consideration. > > Jonathan Ingram wrote: > > > Sadly the overly long length of modern copyright > terms mean that we won't see a > > large influx of public domain computer programming > material for a while. > > Many FSF books are copylefted. One I should > definitely like to see in > the collection is: > > Free Software Free Society > > selected essays of > > Richard M. Stallman > > > My paper copy says: > > "Permission is granted to make and distribute > verbatim copies of this > book provided the copyright notice and this notice > are preserved on all > copies." > > > -- > Marcello Perathoner > webmaster@gutenberg.org > > > > From: Jim Tinsley > CC: > To: traverso@dm.unipi.it, > Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion > > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:33:20 -0400 > Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] PG Forums > > On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 08:40:31AM +0200, Carlo > Traverso wrote: > > > >PG had a forum-like Volunteers' Board at > >http://promo.net/pg/vol/wwwboard/ but it has become > inactive and was > >officially discontinued on November 28, 2003 > > > >The archives are still available at the same > address. > > I can't recommend emulating it; at least, not > _simply_ > emulating it. The rules of the board were that "This > > Board is for posting any question or information > about > how to create Project Gutenberg E-Texts." and > "Off-topic > subjects include anything that is NOT about creating > > PG e-texts,". I moderated it ruthlessly; personal > insults, > opinion, advocacy, posts from clueless newbies who > thought > they were gurus, and indeed anything that did not > fit the > moderation parameters comfortably just went to the > Big > Bit-Bucket In The Sky without a second thought. It > was > a place where newcomers could browse or ask > questions and > make contact -- with me, if no-one else -- and try > to get > their heads around what PG was. Remember, PG was > very opaque > before that: the _only_ two-way communication was > private > mail. > > Then the Board and gutvol-d started up, and quickly > settled > into a pattern: the Board was the shopfront-window > for > passers-by who might be interested in walking in; > gutvol-d > was the back-room for the regulars. And please note, > by > "regulars" I mean people who were actually > contributing to > PG, who knew what they were talking about from > experience, > and who had a stake in the outcome. Monday-morning > Quarterbacks > weren't really in evidence. > > The Board had value in hooking people up with useful > work, and > with answering newbie questions, and it did good. > Nowadays, however, > people can find useful work to do all the time at > DP, and all > the newbie questions are answered in the FAQ, which > was largely > comprised of questions that had been asked on the > Board. Its > functions had become obsolete, and an attempt to > revive it would, > I think, be futile. > > jim > > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Fri May 20 14:35:05 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Fri May 20 14:36:08 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Digital Library of India Message-ID: Dave, I looked, and a lot of these are in English. My question would be about copyright. How can we find out whether it's clear? Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050520/392bcbfe/attachment.html From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Fri May 20 15:16:57 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Fri May 20 15:17:57 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Severe Resistance to EBooks. Message-ID: <1c7.28fb5a3d.2fbfbbd9@aol.com> In a message dated 5/18/2005 5:58:35 AM Mountain Daylight Time, rvijay07@myway.com writes: >stay away from ebooks as they are not good for eyes. So as a NEWBIE, I just >wanted to know more in this regard from those with more experience. I bought a Rocket ebook reader about seven years ago. I bought it because we were trying to set up an epublishing company, and I had to have the Rocket to check how everything looked. As it happened, that particular company fell through. But I fell in love with the Rocket about 3 seconds after I took it out of the book. For years one of my major fears has been that it would expire before I do. Last winter EBookWise, a branch of FictionWise, came out with the FictionWise 1500. It is totally compatable with Rocket and with several other formats, including plain text and Word. So now I have two ebook readers and feel safer. I NEVER read treebooks in bed anymore. With a dedicated ebook reader you can read with the room light off. You can turn around however you want to and you can turn pages by pushing a button; you can set the machine so that you can push the button with your right hand or with your left hand. I'm to the point now that I'd really rather read an old ebook than a new treebook, unless the treebook is one that I particularly want to read or it has a lot of illustrations, as both Rocket and 1500 are bad with illustrations. But with the 1500 you can buy even bestsellers and read them. If you pay a little more money you can join the FictionWise library and check out books. You can't keep them overdue because they quit working when they're due. I love ebooks. I REALLY REALLY REALLY love ebooks. Once upon a time we were out travelling and my husband suddenly decided he absolutely had to stop and write a poem. Now, my husband is one of those really strange guys who are REAL poets, so his stopping to write a poem didn't mean fifteen minutes. It meant about four hours--and I HADN'T TAKEN A BOOK WITH ME! I spent all that time wandering around the truckstop and reading a small road atlas which was the only thing I could buy at the truckstop to read. Now I do not leave the house without 50 books in my purse (Rocket) or 250 books in my purse (1500)--and I have a very small purse. I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY love ebooks. As for eyes, mine are bad because I'm 61 and have spent a large portion of my life outdoors in the South or in the Rocky Mountains without sunglasses (cataracts) and because I have bad genes (corneal dystrophy). But the only way ebooks could hurt your eyes would be if you forget to blink. In that case, use some eyedrops and then return to the book. Oh yes--I now have that epublishing company. I had thought I could do four books a month and am averaging two, but that's okay. IT'S MINE! Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050520/2769138d/attachment.html From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Fri May 20 15:25:56 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Fri May 20 15:26:55 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] HandHeld & E-Books Message-ID: <127.5ca8ba1a.2fbfbdf4@aol.com> In a message dated 5/13/2005 9:31:16 PM Mountain Daylight Time, mattsen@arvig.net writes: (I added a $20 256MB SmartCard and I can't imagine wanting/needing more storage, really.) I can't either, but people who do can add more SmartCards and switch cards when they want to. Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050520/5b544f35/attachment-0001.html From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Fri May 20 15:31:28 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Fri May 20 15:32:26 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: HandHeld & E-Books Message-ID: <12f.5da54b2c.2fbfbf40@aol.com> In a message dated 5/14/2005 4:33:25 AM Mountain Daylight Time, mattsen@arvig.net writes: The transferability of any of the e-Books depends upon their licensing, of course ... I don't profess to be up on the legalities of resale in any venue It also depends on whether the ebook is encrypted. I don't think you got an actual Rocket; I think you got one of the 1500s. Rocket originally could do encrypted books, but . . . forget the sad story. Anyway anything you can read on Rocket now is unencrypted. I suppose you COULD put it on EBay, but it would be silly, because the purchaser could go get his the same place, and at the same price, that you got yours, so you wouldn't make any moneh. You can get encrypted books for the 1500. You cannot sell or give away an encrypted book unless you sold or gaveaway the reader at the same time, unless you know some really smart hacker. But it's cheaper and far less timeconsuming to just buy the book. Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050520/4b793ced/attachment.html From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Fri May 20 15:32:53 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Fri May 20 15:33:53 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: HandHeld & E-Books Message-ID: In a message dated 5/14/2005 6:33:11 AM Mountain Daylight Time, mattsen@arvig.net writes: Haven't tried it myself (frankly, I've not had much luck with running Windows apps under Wine). Go to eBookWise.com. There is a long list of FAQs there. It should answer all the questions everybody was asking. I don't know anything about Wine but it probably wouldn't work. Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050520/2fa7f200/attachment.html From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Fri May 20 15:36:10 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Fri May 20 15:37:09 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: eye strain Message-ID: <1a4.385594f2.2fbfc05a@aol.com> In a message dated 5/14/2005 2:24:05 PM Mountain Daylight Time, Bowerbird@aol.com writes: don't worry about it. it's one of those old-people things... ;+) Does it ever cross your mind that some of us ARE old people? Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050520/c4bad8bf/attachment.html From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Fri May 20 15:48:14 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Fri May 20 15:49:10 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Dear Jon and Bowerbird Message-ID: <29.7395bc39.2fbfc32e@aol.com> In a message dated 5/15/2005 3:39:45 PM Mountain Daylight Time, gbnewby@pglaf.org writes: If we take this direction, next step is to basic form moderation guidelines and find at least two volunteer moderators (not me), who will provide rapid turnaroud time. Greg, I'll do this as part of my job, if you like, but I don't have time to do it as volunteer work. Just tell me what to do. Obviously I have a pretty good idea whom to do it to. I'd want to set up a different screen name to do it under, though, having gotten into a few flame wars myself under my own screen name. Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050520/8ca04714/attachment.html From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Fri May 20 15:52:09 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Fri May 20 15:53:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: you guys crack me up Message-ID: In a message dated 5/16/2005 12:42:08 AM Mountain Daylight Time, Bowerbird@aol.com writes: it is more difficult to be invisible than to be found, so _try_ to relegate my free speech to your "protest zone". I would recognize your writing style as easily as I do Mark Twain's, and a lot less happily. Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050520/581c5481/attachment.html From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Fri May 20 15:56:24 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Fri May 20 15:57:21 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] newsletter editors Message-ID: <1fe.20419ae.2fbfc518@aol.com> In a message dated 5/16/2005 3:03:53 PM Mountain Daylight Time, gbnewby@pglaf.org writes: Qualifications include: - excellent attention to detail - proficient in written English - able to interact well via email (periodic phone calls as needed) - available during the deadline "crunch" times - proficient in "plain text" formating - interest in literary works - able to accept input & suggestions from many constituents My estimate is this would start at 6-10 hours per week. The time commitment could shrink (due to better efficiency and some automation) or grow (due to greater involvement in PG activities, and further outreach). It's feasible for there to be a team doing this, or a "main" editor plus some backup editors. This also I could do as part of my job but can't afford to do as volunteer. If we can get a volunteer that's better. Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050520/456773e7/attachment.html From rvijay07 at myway.com Fri May 20 16:16:04 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Fri May 20 16:17:01 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Digital Library of India Message-ID: <20050520231604.86D3D5C32B@mprdmxin.myway.com> Dear Dr. Raj Reddy: Thank you very much for your efforts towards the Digital Library of India. Kindly clarify/advice on the copyright status of the DLI project/books for Volunteers of the Gutenberg Project www.gutenberg.org (This E-Mail is also being forwarded to the PG volunteers list at http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d which you are invited to join) Thank You in advance for your time, understanding and consideration. Sincerely Yours, Vijay --- On Fri 05/20, < Gutenberg9443@aol.com > wrote: From: [mailto: Gutenberg9443@aol.com] To: hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk, rvijay07@myway.com, gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:35:05 EDT Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Digital Library of India >> I looked, and a lot of these are in English. My question would be about copyright. How can we find out whether it's clear? Anne _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From rvijay07 at myway.com Fri May 20 16:32:05 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Fri May 20 16:33:03 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! Message-ID: <20050520233205.769105C32F@mprdmxin.myway.com> Here is a personal response that I got for this topic. I am sharing the entire message here for general info./discussion as it has good points/experience. However, not revealing the volunteer info. Thanks in advance for understanding. Vijay Yes, it works pretty well. Intonation is odd at times, especially for names, but that's inherent in using a machine to do the reading: it's a really hard problem to duplicate all the rules of thumb a human use in deciding pronunciation. I've fed it plaintext gutenberg files and it works fine. A word of advice: edit out the PG licence and other stuff from the beginning of the file, or it'll take forever reading every punctuation mark and url out: "haitch tee tee pee colon slash slash doubleyew doubleyew doubleyew period pee gee ell aye eff period owe are gee slash" etc. The default reading spead is a litttle slow for my taste, but the timing can be tweaked in various ways, if I read the manual correctly. Another option might be to output to an audio file and run software to reduce the duration of the silences between words. There's speech compression software that does this, apparently, though I don't know a source for it. _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From collin at xs4all.nl Fri May 20 17:23:05 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Fri May 20 17:11:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and prposed future-tech-developments group/forum (was "Dear Jon") In-Reply-To: <428AEFA1.5080802@perathoner.de> References: <428A8B61.29451.34EA233@localhost> Message-ID: <428E9B89.18616.35397D4@localhost> On 18 May 2005, at 9:32, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Branko Collin wrote: > > > The other day there was a flurry of PGTEIization at Distributed > > Proofreaders. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to host the results at > > http://www.gutenberg.org/tei/ too. > > I'd prefer to host only milestone documents and not ongoing > discussions on the web site. > > That said, where are the results of that digiTEIzation, so I can take > a look? See . I don't know if you need to log in. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From cannona at fireantproductions.com Fri May 20 16:56:33 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Fri May 20 18:17:59 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" In-Reply-To: <427D6F81.6329.25CB924@localhost> References: <427A94E4.8030700@uiuc.edu> <427D6F81.6329.25CB924@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050520183214.036f7b90@mail.fireantproductions.com> I realize that it has been a while since this message was posted, but I wanted to briefly comment. Project Gutenberg isn't a library? Who cares. Perhaps the distinction is a big one for the ivory tower types, but for the average reader, and maybe even many of the serious readers, it just doesn't matter. What matters is that person X found their favorite book from childhood, person Y found several great texts that they can adapt to teach English to their students, and person Z discovered a new favorite author. That being said, I still think we should preserve as much of the source information as is practical. It would have been interesting to see his reasons for saying that PG is not a library, unfortunately, either he provided none, or they were not included in the article. However, I don't hold out much hope that they would have been terribly enlightening, considering that elsewhere in his talk he said, "Wisdom precedes knowledge, which precedes information... I'm trying to invert the standard hierarchy." If that were true, it would open the door for a whole new world of excuses. "Yes I'm illiterate. I was born that way." Or perhaps I just missed his point. Aaron Cannon At 06:46 PM 5/7/2005, you wrote: >On 6 May 2005, at 11:29, Michael Hart wrote: > > > We have received very good conservative legal advice that Project > > Gutenberg is indeed a library or archive, and probably both, and has > > been for over a decade. > >"Likewise, he encouraged libraries to "push back against the easy >assertion that Project Gutenberg is a library."" > >(I am not sure what that person was on about though. Full article at >d>.) > >-- >branko collin >collin@xs4all.nl >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Fri May 20 18:23:21 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Fri May 20 18:24:25 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Reply comments on US issues raised by "orphan works" Message-ID: <126.5d7cb4ad.2fbfe789@aol.com> In a message dated 5/20/2005 7:17:10 PM Mountain Daylight Time, cannona@fireantproductions.com writes: It would have been interesting to see his reasons for saying that PG is not a library, unfortunately, either he provided none, or they were not included in the article. I missed the whole post. However, legally PG is both a library and a publisher. Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050520/8522d894/attachment.html From radicks at bellsouth.net Fri May 20 18:15:14 2005 From: radicks at bellsouth.net (Dick Adicks) Date: Fri May 20 18:24:35 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG for Mac users Message-ID: Is there a sub-group to help Mac users to create e-texts that will communicate successfully with PCs? Are there individual volunteers who use Macs and can advise others? Dick Adicks From geoff.horton at gmail.com Fri May 20 18:31:55 2005 From: geoff.horton at gmail.com (Geoff Horton) Date: Fri May 20 18:32:52 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG for Mac users In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94e5f5960505201831222dcc76@mail.gmail.com> > Is there a sub-group to help Mac users to create e-texts that will > communicate successfully with PCs? Are there individual volunteers who use > Macs and can advise others? Might I ask why anything special is needed? It would seem to me that since PG uses plaintext and HTML, no special effort is needed. But I don't use a Mac, so perhaps there's something I don't know. Geoff From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Fri May 20 19:01:44 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Fri May 20 19:02:49 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: HandHeld & E-Books Message-ID: In a message dated 5/14/2005 8:48:43 AM Mountain Daylight Time, matthew@mc.clintock.com writes: Unfortunately I don't have an eBookwise-1150 to test it out. Anyone care to try it and let me know how it works for them? I've downloaded and read a few books on your site, and I just checked a couple more. They work fine on the Rocket. I've found that some Rocket books can't be put into the 1500 for reasons I don't understand; however, these download into the 1500 just fine and so presumably will work in them. I can't easily get at the 1500 right now, but if there's a problem I'll let you know. Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050520/d4d01dbe/attachment.html From cannona at fireantproductions.com Fri May 20 19:27:07 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Fri May 20 19:28:09 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] World Health Organization Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050520212430.01c34f70@mail.fireantproductions.com> I'm wondering if anyone has considered getting permission to add the publications of the World Health Organization to our catalog? From their web site: "Become a WHO publishing partner Information about health is fundamental to saving lives and making us all healthier. To reach more readers with its information, WHO is seeking partners to reproduce and/or translate the books and reports in this catalogue. Royalties are modest and can be waived in the case of non-profit editions or those intended for developing countries. For further information, please contact: Knowledge Management and Sharing, World Health Organization, CH-1211 Geneva 27, Switzerland, Tel: +41 22 7912460, Fax: +41 22 7914806 pubrights@who.int http://www.who.int/publications/en/ -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri May 20 20:03:41 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri May 20 20:04:47 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG for Mac users Message-ID: dick said: > Is there a sub-group to help Mac users to create e-texts > that will communicate successfully with PCs? not really. but i write mac software for that purpose, so if you're ready to start making e-texts, let me know. the e-texts you make will work on any platform. > Are there individual volunteers who use Macs > and can advise others? i do, and i can. just backchannel me. -bowerbird From marcello at perathoner.de Sat May 21 02:11:58 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Sat May 21 02:13:04 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG for Mac users In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <428EFB5E.6000303@perathoner.de> Dick Adicks wrote: > Is there a sub-group to help Mac users to create e-texts that will > communicate successfully with PCs? Are there individual volunteers who use > Macs and can advise others? There's the issue of character sets. I think the Mac uses a proprietary character set (as does windows). If you export the text to utf-8 before sending it in, you should not have any problems. Then there's the issue of support tools. There exist some PG tools to help you check your work but AFAIK they work on windows. You may want to read the FAQ www.gutenberg.org/faq/ and the DP fora and maybe contact Jim Tinsley, who wrote some of the tools. And steer clear of people on this list who claim to be Mac programmers. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From rvijay07 at myway.com Sat May 21 03:31:29 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sat May 21 03:32:37 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City Message-ID: <20050521103129.432943984@mprdmxin.myway.com> Hello everyone: Here is my attempt to add a book to the PG collection and a response in this regard. Steve, the Author of the site soliandearth.org is confident that this book is Public Domain. Can this book be added to the PG Collection ? Please advice. Thanks in advance. Sincerely, Vijay Definition of Public Domain for Reference: http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/okbooks.html --- On Sat 05/21, Steve Solomon < stsolomo@soilandhealth.org > wrote: From: Steve Solomon [mailto: stsolomo@soilandhealth.org] To: rvijay07@myway.com Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 19:16:11 +1000 Subject: Re: Email from the soilandhealth.org web site >>Vijay, If you are a PG member then you are for sure familiar with the rules of Public Domain. Alive/dead has nothing to do with it. It would be miraculous if Borsodi lives in the same body he lived in when he was being Ralph Borsodi !Steve Original Message From: To: Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 12:05 PM
Subject: >> Greetings Steve ! I see that the book below (Flight From the City) is Public Domain. Can you please provide the related proof since I believe that the Author is still alive. http://soilandhealth.org/03sov/0302hsted/030204borsodi/030204borsoditoc.html I am presently a PG Volunteer and would like to see this book added to the gutenberg.org collection/library. Hence my request. Thank you in advance. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From jmk at his.com Sat May 21 04:45:27 2005 From: jmk at his.com (Janet Kegg) Date: Sat May 21 04:46:02 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City In-Reply-To: <20050521103129.432943984@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050521103129.432943984@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: I followed the link you gave for "Flight from the City" and see the ebook posted states it is "copyright 1933". So it is not in the public domain in the U.S. and cannot be added to PG. For your information, the general rule for PG is that the book was published in 1922 or earlier. On Sat, 21 May 2005 06:31:29 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: > >Hello everyone: > >Here is my attempt to add a book to the PG collection and a response in this regard. > >Steve, the Author of the site soliandearth.org is confident that this book is Public Domain. > >Can this book be added to the PG Collection ? Please advice. > >Thanks in advance. > >Sincerely, > >Vijay > >Definition of Public Domain for Reference: >http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/okbooks.html > > > --- On Sat 05/21, Steve Solomon < stsolomo@soilandhealth.org > wrote: >From: Steve Solomon [mailto: stsolomo@soilandhealth.org] >To: rvijay07@myway.com >Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 19:16:11 +1000 >Subject: Re: Email from the soilandhealth.org web site > >>>Vijay, If you are a PG member then you are for sure familiar with the rules of Public Domain. Alive/dead has nothing to do with it. It would be miraculous if Borsodi lives in the same body he lived in when he was being Ralph Borsodi !Steve > >Original Message From: >To: >Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 12:05 PM
Subject: >>> Greetings Steve ! I see that the book below (Flight From the City) is Public Domain. Can you please provide the related proof since I believe that the Author is still alive. >http://soilandhealth.org/03sov/0302hsted/030204borsodi/030204borsoditoc.html I am presently a PG Volunteer and would like to see this book added to the gutenberg.org collection/library. Hence my request. >Thank you in advance. > >Vijay > >_______________________________________________ >No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. >Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com > > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From rvijay07 at myway.com Sat May 21 04:52:35 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sat May 21 04:53:45 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City Message-ID: <20050521115235.B15933998@mprdmxin.myway.com> The Author seems to have passed away as per this and other sites on him. http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/loomis_borsodi_bio.html http://www.izaak.unh.edu/specoll/mancoll/borsodi.htm Vijay --- On Sat 05/21, Janet Kegg < jmk@his.com > wrote: From: Janet Kegg [mailto: jmk@his.com] To: rvijay07@myway.com, gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 07:45:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City
I followed the link you gave for "Flight from the City" and see the
ebook posted states it is "copyright 1933". So it is not in the
public domain in the U.S. and cannot be added to PG. For your
information, the general rule for PG is that the book was published in
1922 or earlier.



On Sat, 21 May 2005 06:31:29 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

>
>Hello everyone:
>
>Here is my attempt to add a book to the PG collection and a response in this regard.
>
>Steve, the Author of the site soliandearth.org is confident that this book is Public Domain.
>
>Can this book be added to the PG Collection ? Please advice.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Vijay
>
>Definition of Public Domain for Reference:
>http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/okbooks.html
>
>
> --- On Sat 05/21, Steve Solomon < stsolomo@soilandhealth.org > wrote:
>From: Steve Solomon [mailto: stsolomo@soilandhealth.org]
>To: rvijay07@myway.com
>Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 19:16:11 +1000
>Subject: Re: Email from the soilandhealth.org web site
>
>>>Vijay, If you are a PG member then you are for sure familiar with the rules of Public Domain. Alive/dead has nothing to do with it. It would be miraculous if Borsodi lives in the same body he lived in when he was being Ralph Borsodi !Steve
>
>Original Message From:
>To:
>Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 12:05 PM
Subject:
>>> Greetings Steve ! I see that the book below (Flight From the City) is Public Domain. Can you please provide the related proof since I believe that the Author is still alive.
>http://soilandhealth.org/03sov/0302hsted/030204borsodi/030204borsoditoc.html I am presently a PG Volunteer and would like to see this book added to the gutenberg.org collection/library. Hence my request.
>Thank you in advance.
>
>Vijay
>
>_______________________________________________
>No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
>Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>gutvol-d mailing list
>gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org
>http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d

_______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Sat May 21 06:39:02 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Sat May 21 06:40:16 2005 Subject: Fwd: [gutvol-d] Another Collection Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "rvijay07" Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Another Collection Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 05:27:29 -0400 (EDT) Size: 4214 Url: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050521/0f80c20a/attachment.mht From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Sat May 21 06:57:33 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Sat May 21 06:58:43 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Another Collection Message-ID: <12a.5dc8a777.2fc0984d@aol.com> Vijay, Did you mean to send this just to me, or to or to the entire board? I assume you meant the latter, so I have forwarded it. In a message dated 5/21/2005 3:27:33 AM Mountain Daylight Time, rvijay07@myway.com writes: >Here is what I was taught once. It is important to know the ways of the devil >inorder to be able to deal with him. I agree with this, within reason. One does not want to become obsessed with the devil's work. If you can afford to buy ebooks (some of us can't), you might like to go to FictionWise.com and buy RENTWING. It's my first fantasy and my first scripture-based novel, and it pretty well spells out my opinion in this matter. >A program I heard a few weeks ago on Deutsche Welle Radio talked about not >banning Hitler's Book MeinKampf in Germany. It is allowed and sold in the US. >Anyone can download it of the net. Unbanning a book allows all to read and decide i>f the material is good or bad for themselves. They say most people learn positively >from it. I read it when I was thirteen. I'm 61 now, so there's been a long span of time since then and I remember very little of it. But I do remember that he started the book by saying, in effect, "I used to think . . . " and presenting reasonably normal reasoning. He soon got into "But NOW I know . . . " and his reasoning became more and more insane the farther he got into the book. I felt that I was reading a man's collapse into paranoid schizophrenia. But too many people, even now, read it and believe his "logic." Banned Books Week: http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/bannedbooksweek/bannedbooksweek.htm My oldest daughter has an annual Banned Books Party. She sends out her invitations, then she goes to used-book stores all over Fort Worth, and then if necessary she buys some books at full cost. At her party, she hands out as party favors copies of the banned books. If I were into party-giving and didn't live in a neighborhood so staid that a lot of people STILL want to ban books, I'd do the same thing. I just bookmarked the site. I had it bookmarked at one time until a rather complex computer disaster occurred, and I hadn't gone back to look for it again. Anyways, I will go with the majority of PG in this case. The Author also has not responded so this is not an issue at this time. I seem to have come in in the middle of this discussion. Please enlighten me. Are we talking about Adolf Hitler having not responded? He's, uh, sort of dead, as of course you know, so I take it you are speaking facetiously. I agree that no matter how detestable the work is, and it is extremely detestable, it is a major document of world history and therefore should be available. However, as it already IS available online, I also will go with the majority on whether or not Gutenberg should post it. PROTOCOL OF THE ELDERS OF ZION, which is an extremely inflammatory and vicious collection of lies and hatespeak, also is available online, but I would strongly object to PG posting it. My position is this, I think: Banning books is wrong. However, I am not required to publish them myself if I find them distasteful. Let somebody who DOESN'T consider them distasteful publish them. Books are banned for many reasons, though, and some of them are extremely silly. Some schools have banned HUCKLEBERRY FINN because it uses what is now referred to as "The N-word." But Twain was making a point, and the point he was making was that a good black man is just as good as any other good man, and a lot better than most men, and he was demonstrating that. In one chilling example, Tom Sawyer's aunt, on being told of the explosion of a boiler in a paddleboat, asks, "Was anybody hurt?" The reply was, "No, ma'am, killed a nigger, though." To which the aunt replies, "Well, that's fortunate, because sometimes people are hurt in that kind of thing." But by this time the reader knows that Jim, the run-away slave, is the only REAL person in the book other than Huck. Everybody else in the book has assumed a persona in which a black person IS NOT a person, and thereby they have made themselves non-real. The cult of "the other" can cut two ways. As you may have noticed, I do not find this book distasteful, although I am from the Deep South. So I suppose, on careful consideration, that I do think PG should not publish MEIN KAMPF, but I won't throw a tantrum either way. It's available, so it's not banned from the Internet. Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050521/2c7c4a41/attachment.html From cannona at fireantproductions.com Sat May 21 07:09:55 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Sat May 21 07:29:28 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City In-Reply-To: <20050521103129.432943984@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050521103129.432943984@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050521090857.01cb4d98@mail.fireantproductions.com> Whether or not the author is alive (at least in the US) has nothing to do with it. It's all about the publication date. Good luck. Sincerely Aaron Cannon At 05:31 AM 5/21/2005, you wrote: >Hello everyone: > >Here is my attempt to add a book to the PG collection and a response in >this regard. > >Steve, the Author of the site soliandearth.org is confident that this book >is Public Domain. > >Can this book be added to the PG Collection ? Please advice. > >Thanks in advance. > >Sincerely, > >Vijay > >Definition of Public Domain for Reference: >http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/okbooks.html > > > --- On Sat 05/21, Steve Solomon < stsolomo@soilandhealth.org > wrote: >From: Steve Solomon [mailto: stsolomo@soilandhealth.org] >To: rvijay07@myway.com >Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 19:16:11 +1000 >Subject: Re: Email from the soilandhealth.org web site > > >>Vijay, If you are a PG member then you are for sure familiar with > the rules of Public Domain. Alive/dead has nothing to do with it. It > would be miraculous if Borsodi lives in the same body he lived in when he > was being Ralph Borsodi !Steve > >Original Message From: >To: >Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 12:05 PM
Subject: > >> Greetings Steve ! I see that the book below (Flight From the City) is > Public Domain. Can you please provide the related proof since I believe > that the Author is still alive. >http://soilandhealth.org/03sov/0302hsted/030204borsodi/030204borsoditoc.html >I am presently a PG Volunteer and would like to see this book added to the >gutenberg.org collection/library. Hence my request. >Thank you in advance. > >Vijay > >_______________________________________________ >No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. >Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com > > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) From collin at xs4all.nl Sat May 21 08:37:51 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Sat May 21 08:26:15 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City In-Reply-To: <20050521115235.B15933998@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <428F71EF.30652.421987@localhost> > The Author seems to have passed away as per this and other sites on > him. I am afraid that is not really relevant. However, if the heirs want to submit the book for PG, that should be possible. Also, there is currently a movement afoot in the US (initiated by the US Copyright Office) to liberate orphan works. However, it may take a couple of years before PG can legally publish these works. If you are planning to submit books to PG, please read the FAQ first. You can find it at . It is a hefty document, but it does have most of the answers, and is easy to read. Also read the Copyright Howto: Even if you are not planning to submit books, reading a FAQ is always the polite thing to do before you enter a conversation. > Steve, the Author of the site soliandearth.org is confident > that this book is Public Domain. That is not how I read his reply, but perhaps he can elaborate. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From jon_niehof at yahoo.com Sat May 21 08:27:21 2005 From: jon_niehof at yahoo.com (Jon Niehof) Date: Sat May 21 08:28:29 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Another Collection In-Reply-To: <12a.5dc8a777.2fc0984d@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050521152721.48985.qmail@web32907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Either Gutenberg9443@aol.com or rvijay07@myway.com wrote: > PROTOCOL OF THE ELDERS OF ZION, which is an extremely > inflammatory and vicious collection of lies and hatespeak, > also is available online, but I would strongly object to PG > posting it. My position is this, I think: Banning books is > wrong. However, I am not required to publish them myself if I > find them distasteful. Let somebody who DOESN'T consider them > distasteful publish them. I could have sworn the Protocols went through DP last fall, but I can't find evidence thereof. The DP consensus I inferred from the discussions at the time was that we're trying to preserve all literature, especially the important and influential, into which category the Protocols certainly fall. Rather than print disclaimers at the beginning or otherwise pass judgement on the text, it was suggested that we find as much PD material debunking the Protocols as possible, and process it through. We would be doing a disservice to posterity if we picked and chose what went through. It would also be a disservice to label some texts as "generally approved" and some as "generally bunk," imposing our turn-of-the-millenium viewpoint on the collection. So as I see it, it's best to preserve as much as possible, from as wide a range of viewpoints as possible, knowing that this is *inherently dangerous* and that these texts will almost certainly be used to support actions and viewpoints that we deem contemptible. That's why all this work matters in the first place: because books are dangerous, and they are powerful. But by no means do I, nor anyone else of whom I'm aware, believe that any particular volunteer should be forced to work on any particular text. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From davedoty at hotmail.com Sat May 21 08:58:12 2005 From: davedoty at hotmail.com (Dave Doty) Date: Sat May 21 08:59:24 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City In-Reply-To: <428F71EF.30652.421987@localhost> Message-ID: >From: "Branko Collin" >I am afraid that is not really relevant. However, if the heirs want >to submit the book for PG, that should be possible. A couple of months ago, I did a little digging out of curiousity to find out who owned the copyright to Mein Kampf. Apparently it's the Austrian Government,who refuse to allow it to be published in Austria, but otherwise have no interest in it. But it's definitely still copyright by either US or life+70 countries' standards. Dave Doty From collin at xs4all.nl Sat May 21 09:53:03 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Sat May 21 09:41:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City In-Reply-To: References: <428F71EF.30652.421987@localhost> Message-ID: <428F838F.8504.86F6DD@localhost> > >From: "Branko Collin" > > >I am afraid that is not really relevant. However, if the heirs want > >to submit the book for PG, that should be possible. > > A couple of months ago, I did a little digging out of curiousity to > find out who owned the copyright to Mein Kampf. Apparently it's the > Austrian Government,who refuse to allow it to be published in Austria, > but otherwise have no interest in it. But it's definitely still > copyright by either US or life+70 countries' standards. Rik Lambers' Constitional Code blog had some discussion on this topic (I should know :-)) at . >From what I understand, the German state of Bavaria seized the assets of Adolf Hitler after his death, including the copyright to Mein Kampf, and has been asserting its copyrigth aggressively since then. In Life+50 countries (i.e. most of the globe), Mein Kampf should be public domain since 1996, but not in the US or the EU. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com Sat May 21 09:47:22 2005 From: jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com (Jonathan Ingram) Date: Sat May 21 09:48:32 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Another Collection In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050521164722.18513.qmail@web33004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jon Niehof wrote: > I could have sworn the Protocols went through DP last fall, but > I can't find evidence thereof. The DP consensus I inferred from > the discussions at the time was that we're trying to preserve > all literature, especially the important and influential, into > which category the Protocols certainly fall. Rather than print > disclaimers at the beginning or otherwise pass judgement on the > text, it was suggested that we find as much PD material > debunking the Protocols as possible, and process it through. Yes, it went through DPEU, in a translation which is public-domain in the EU, but not in the US. We're currently for a European life+X archive to set up, so we can publish this and the many other works that have gone through the site that are not US-public domain. The Protocols will almost certainly have a disclaimer at the beginning when they are published, due to the sensitive nature of the work. I would also, as you have mentioned, like to put it in context, but none of this material has been found or scanned so far. -- Jon Ingram __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com Sat May 21 09:48:14 2005 From: jonathan_ingram at yahoo.com (Jonathan Ingram) Date: Sat May 21 09:49:24 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050521164814.87916.qmail@web33009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Dave Doty wrote: > >From: "Branko Collin" > > >I am afraid that is not really relevant. However, if the heirs want > >to submit the book for PG, that should be possible. > > A couple of months ago, I did a little digging out of curiousity to find out > who owned the copyright to Mein Kampf. Apparently it's the Austrian > Government,who refuse to allow it to be published in Austria, but otherwise > have no interest in it. But it's definitely still copyright by either US or > life+70 countries' standards. Not in life+50, though. -- Jon Ingram Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Sat May 21 09:51:43 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Sat May 21 09:53:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Another Collection Message-ID: <6.457c0d0f.2fc0c11f@aol.com> In a message dated 5/21/2005 9:27:47 AM Mountain Daylight Time, jon_niehof@yahoo.com writes: >I could have sworn the Protocols went through DP last fall, but >I can't find evidence thereof. I haven't looked for it, and don't plan on it. >We would be doing a disservice to posterity if we picked and >chose what went through. It would also be a disservice to label >some texts as "generally approved" and some as "generally bunk," >imposing our turn-of-the-millenium viewpoint on the collection. >So as I see it, it's best to preserve as much as possible, from >as wide a range of viewpoints as possible, knowing that this is >*inherently dangerous* and that these texts will almost >certainly be used to support actions and viewpoints that we deem >contemptible. That's why all this work matters in the first >place: because books are dangerous, and they are powerful. That is, of course, a very strong argument. It happens that right now PROTOCOLS is running around a lot of the world exacerbating some already bad situations. Like Vijay, I'll leave it to majority vote. I've already read it, several years ago when my husband needed it for something he was writing, and it is so silly that it is incredible to me that anybody could ever have believed it. Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050521/34c14eeb/attachment.html From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Sat May 21 10:06:24 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Sat May 21 10:07:46 2005 Subject: PROTOCOLS (was Re: [gutvol-d] Another Collection) Message-ID: In a message dated 5/21/2005 9:27:47 AM Mountain Daylight Time, jon_niehof@yahoo.com writes: >I could have sworn the Protocols went through DP last fall, but >I can't find evidence thereof. The DP consensus I inferred from >the discussions at the time was that we're trying to preserve >all literature, especially the important and influential, into >which category the Protocols certainly fall. Rather than print >disclaimers at the beginning or otherwise pass judgement on the >text, it was suggested that we find as much PD material >debunking the Protocols as possible, and process it through. Pray forgive me, O ye liberals, for I have sinned by being both GOP and Libertarian. I have just asked the John Birch Society to try to find me information refuting the PROTOCOLS. They had a lot of such information 40 years ago, but that was 40 years ago. It will be next week at the earliest before I hear back from them. Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050521/ce6eff29/attachment.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Sat May 21 10:33:09 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sat May 21 10:34:26 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG for Mac users Message-ID: <191.3fc52d70.2fc0cad5@aol.com> the non-mac people here can't help you. so they'll steer you away from the mac people who can... :+) makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? as the saying goes, 5% of the people use macs, but it's the top 5%. ;+) -bowerbird From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Sat May 21 10:36:44 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Sat May 21 10:38:02 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] World Health Organization Message-ID: <190.40669153.2fc0cbac@aol.com> In a message dated 5/20/2005 8:27:27 PM Mountain Daylight Time, cannona@fireantproductions.com writes: I'm wondering if anyone has considered getting permission to add the publications of the World Health Organization to our catalog? >From their web site: "Become a WHO publishing partner Information about health is fundamental to saving lives and making us all healthier. To reach more readers with its information, WHO is seeking partners to reproduce and/or translate the books and reports in this catalogue. Royalties are modest and can be waived in the case of non-profit editions or those intended for developing countries. For further information, please contact: Knowledge Management and Sharing, World Health Organization, CH-1211 Geneva 27, Switzerland, Tel: +41 22 7912460, Fax: +41 22 7914806 pubrights@who.int http://www.who.int/publications/en/ I sent WHO an email requesting information. I'll update when I get it. Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050521/6a8ac9ac/attachment-0001.html From jon_niehof at yahoo.com Sat May 21 11:05:23 2005 From: jon_niehof at yahoo.com (Jon Niehof) Date: Sat May 21 11:06:35 2005 Subject: PROTOCOLS (was Re: [gutvol-d] Another Collection) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050521180523.64800.qmail@web32909.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Gutenberg9443@aol.com wrote: > I have just asked the John Birch Society to > try to find me information refuting the PROTOCOLS. Wikipedia's article is quite good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion Obvious PD (in the US) material that would be useful, either because it directly engages the Protocols or is source material which they plagiarize: -Joly's 1864 "Dialogue aux enfers entre Machiavel et Montesquieu", in PG in French. A clearable English translation would be useful; searching the libraries available to me reveals none. -Eugène Sue's work. The Wandering Jew is in PG in its entirety in English; only a few volumes in French. PG also has but a few volumes of Mysteries of Paris. -Hermann Goedsche ("Sir John Retcliffe")'s "Biarritz". Searching for a copy reveals 'The history of a lie, "The protocols of the wise men of Zion"; a study.' by Herman Bernstein. Published in 1921 in New York and thus likely clearable. I'm going down to Copley this afternoon to get some missing pages anyhow, so I'll check it out and submit it for clearance. -Dumas père's Joseph Balsamo. Again, Copley has an apparently-clearable copy (in French) so I can pursue that eventually -Lucien Wolf's 1921 work on the Protocols. Published in London; I don't have any other information -The Times articles by Philip Grave, based on Wolf's work. Not sure if these have been collected or if somebody would want to start working on all clearable issues of the London Times (!) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cannona at fireantproductions.com Sat May 21 11:20:49 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Sat May 21 11:56:06 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] World Health Organization In-Reply-To: <190.40669153.2fc0cbac@aol.com> References: <190.40669153.2fc0cbac@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050521124212.0392cad0@mail.fireantproductions.com> Thanks for this! It looks like one of their publications may already be eligible. From Breastfeeding: How to Support Success by Tine Vinther and Elisabet Helsing, Ph.D.: "All rights in this document are reserved by the WHO Regional Office for Europe. The document may nevertheless be freely reviewed, abstracted, reproduced or translated, but not for sale or for use in conjunction with commercial purposes. Any views expressed by named authors are solely the responsibility of those authors. The Regional Office would appreciate receiving three copies of any translation." It looks like, at least for this document, we've already been granted permission, but perhaps Greg or Michael can comment. I think this would be a great addition to the archive. the abstract says: "Mothers eager to breastfeed their infants are often reliant on health workers for advice regarding breastfeeding. The knowledge and attitude of health workers can influence the success or failure of breastfeeding. However, the formal education of health workers on how to help mothers to cope with the process of lactation is often inadequate. This document is designed to guide health workers in the process of supporting mothers to breastfeed successfully." However, eventhough it is aimed at health professionals, my wife found it very understandable and helpful with our first kid. At 12:36 PM 5/21/2005, you wrote: >In a message dated 5/20/2005 8:27:27 PM Mountain Daylight Time, >cannona@fireantproductions.com writes: >I'm wondering if anyone has considered getting permission to add the >publications of the World Health Organization to our catalog? > From their web site: >"Become a WHO publishing partner >Information about health is fundamental to saving lives and making us all >healthier. To reach more readers with its information, WHO is seeking >partners to reproduce and/or translate the books and reports in this >catalogue. Royalties are modest and can be waived in the case of non-profit >editions or those intended for developing countries. For further >information, please contact: Knowledge Management and Sharing, World Health >Organization, CH-1211 Geneva 27, Switzerland, Tel: +41 22 7912460, Fax: +41 >22 7914806 pubrights@who.int >http://www.who.int/publications/en/ > >I sent WHO an email requesting information. I'll update when I get it. > >Anne > >Do you like to breathe? >Then save the trees! >Begin a personal relationship >with an ebook >TODAY! >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) From jmdyck at ibiblio.org Sat May 21 13:25:58 2005 From: jmdyck at ibiblio.org (Michael Dyck) Date: Sat May 21 13:27:23 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City References: <20050521103129.432943984@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <428F9956.7FD06C28@ibiblio.org> Janet Kegg wrote: > > I followed the link you gave for "Flight from the City" and see the > ebook posted states it is "copyright 1933". So it is not in the > public domain in the U.S. Not necessarily. If the 1933 copyright wasn't renewed (around 1961), then it's in the public domain, and PG could clear it under "Rule 6". (It looks to me like it wasn't renewed.) -Michael From jmk at his.com Sat May 21 16:40:59 2005 From: jmk at his.com (Janet Kegg) Date: Sat May 21 17:22:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City In-Reply-To: <428F9956.7FD06C28@ibiblio.org> References: <20050521103129.432943984@mprdmxin.myway.com> <428F9956.7FD06C28@ibiblio.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 May 2005 13:25:58 -0700, you wrote: >Janet Kegg wrote: >> >> I followed the link you gave for "Flight from the City" and see the >> ebook posted states it is "copyright 1933". So it is not in the >> public domain in the U.S. > >Not necessarily. If the 1933 copyright wasn't renewed (around 1961), >then it's in the public domain, and PG could clear it under "Rule 6". >(It looks to me like it wasn't renewed.) > >-Michael Thanks for the correction--I should have qualified my comment. I'm aware of rule 6 but I guess it hasn't quite penetrated my awareness that PG is routinely clearing books published after 1922 on the basis of the copyright-renewal records now available for searching. (So far I've limited myself to pre-1923 books.) -- Janet From nwolcott at dsdial.net Sat May 21 16:47:50 2005 From: nwolcott at dsdial.net (N Wolcott) Date: Sat May 21 17:35:31 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City References: <428F71EF.30652.421987@localhost> <428F838F.8504.86F6DD@localhost> Message-ID: <012401c55e65$f9b629a0$2c9495ce@gw98> sorry URL didn't work. Either Time or Newsweek had a 2 page article on this a year or two ago. In the US @ was vested in the US property custodian, then returned to the German Government after the occupation ended. The German publishing houses were still collecting royalties, but then agreed after publicity to turn them over to the holocaust fund I believe. However the English translation published in 1936 , which is not from the original German version has been floating around on the Web and may be PD in Australia. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Branko Collin" To: Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City > > > >From: "Branko Collin" > > > > >I am afraid that is not really relevant. However, if the heirs want > > >to submit the book for PG, that should be possible. > > > > A couple of months ago, I did a little digging out of curiousity to > > find out who owned the copyright to Mein Kampf. Apparently it's the > > Austrian Government,who refuse to allow it to be published in Austria, > > but otherwise have no interest in it. But it's definitely still > > copyright by either US or life+70 countries' standards. > > Rik Lambers' Constitional Code blog had some discussion on this topic > (I should know :-)) at > copyright.html>. > > >From what I understand, the German state of Bavaria seized the assets > of Adolf Hitler after his death, including the copyright to Mein > Kampf, and has been asserting its copyrigth aggressively since then. > > In Life+50 countries (i.e. most of the globe), Mein Kampf should be > public domain since 1996, but not in the US or the EU. > > -- > branko collin > collin@xs4all.nl > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From grythumn at gmail.com Sat May 21 16:19:13 2005 From: grythumn at gmail.com (Robert Cicconetti) Date: Sat May 21 18:07:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City In-Reply-To: <428F71EF.30652.421987@localhost> References: <20050521115235.B15933998@mprdmxin.myway.com> <428F71EF.30652.421987@localhost> Message-ID: <15cfa2a505052116191d319270@mail.gmail.com> On 5/21/05, Branko Collin wrote: > Also read the Copyright Howto: > > > Even if you are not planning to submit books, reading a FAQ is always > the polite thing to do before you enter a conversation. > > > Steve, the Author of the site soliandearth.org is confident > > that this book is Public Domain. > > That is not how I read his reply, but perhaps he can elaborate. At first glance it looks eligible for a Rule 6 clearance, but those are a lot of work.. unless you particularly want that specific book in PG, I would look for something that can be cleared more easily. (I have a Jefferson biography cleared under Rule 6 for the 4th of July at DP.. it took a lot of work both from me and Mr. Newby to clear it. Hopefully the new copyright rules will simplify this process.) R C From rvijay07 at myway.com Sat May 21 20:59:55 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Sat May 21 21:01:20 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Browser Assistance Request. Message-ID: <20050522035955.1B83212CE5@mprdmxin.myway.com> I was finally able to download the gutenbrowser software. It shows the text only about three inches to the centre of the page. Fonts are not convenient and is slow. So, I have decided to work with mozilla for now in regards to reading ebooks. Thanks very much for the help so far. By pressing Cltr+ I am easily able to change fonts now. Also I learned to change the background color to dark green as this is more convenient compared to the bright glowing white background. Here is what I need now. Is there any way that I can add a Bookmark in the text file that I am reading thru Mozilla ? What other convenient options does Mozilla offer for reading ebooks ? Thanks in advance. Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From tb at baechler.net Sat May 21 21:01:17 2005 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Sat May 21 21:01:29 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG and Creative Commons Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050521205249.025b2350@baechler.net> Hi. Is there any kind of official statement or PG policy concerning works licensed under a Creative Commons license? Are such works acceptable? Also, is there anyone maintaining the PG music archive? I am asking because I know of several composers of classic MIDI files. I am planning to ask them to consider licensing their works under a Creative Commons type license. I can also mention Project Gutenberg and/or drop a name of someone for them to contact if they want or will allow PG to distribute their works. This would be good for PG because some composers have done a lot of classical music from a number of pre-1922 compositions. I don't think I can help with sheet music, and of course I have no way of knowing that the sheet music sources they used are in the public domain. I know that some of them also make various files available in mp3, but I don't think they offer other formats. Is this something I should consider on behalf of PG or not? If PG is interested in something like this, I would also ask them to consider just releasing their files into the public domain, but I doubt if that will happen. Thanks, and feel free to write me off list if it's easier. Tony Baechler Maintainer, goldenaudio.net (TM) online archives http://goldenaudio.net/ From holden.mcgroin at dsl.pipex.com Sun May 22 01:01:46 2005 From: holden.mcgroin at dsl.pipex.com (Holden McGroin) Date: Sun May 22 01:03:08 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City In-Reply-To: <20050521164814.87916.qmail@web33009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050521164814.87916.qmail@web33009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42903C6A.3060201@dsl.pipex.com> Jonathan Ingram wrote: > --- Dave Doty wrote: > >>>From: "Branko Collin" >> >>>I am afraid that is not really relevant. However, if the heirs want >>>to submit the book for PG, that should be possible. >> >>A couple of months ago, I did a little digging out of curiousity to find out >>who owned the copyright to Mein Kampf. Apparently it's the Austrian >>Government,who refuse to allow it to be published in Austria, but otherwise >>have no interest in it. But it's definitely still copyright by either US or >>life+70 countries' standards. > > > Not in life+50, though. Then surely it should be possible to publish this at PG of Australia since, up until recently, their copyright law was Life + 50 and the recent extensions do not (I believe) apply to books which had already fallen into the public domain. Regards, Holden From prosfilaes at gmail.com Sun May 22 01:30:04 2005 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Sun May 22 01:31:28 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City In-Reply-To: <42903C6A.3060201@dsl.pipex.com> References: <20050521164814.87916.qmail@web33009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <42903C6A.3060201@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <6d99d1fd05052201305bb44bbe@mail.gmail.com> On 5/22/05, Holden McGroin wrote: > Then surely it should be possible to publish this at PG of Australia since, up until > recently, their copyright law was Life + 50 and the recent extensions do not (I believe) > apply to books which had already fallen into the public domain. They've published an English translation. PG Europe could concievable take on the German original, as Serbia is Life+50. From sly at victoria.tc.ca Sun May 22 01:31:09 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Sun May 22 01:32:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City In-Reply-To: <42903C6A.3060201@dsl.pipex.com> References: <20050521164814.87916.qmail@web33009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <42903C6A.3060201@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 May 2005, Holden McGroin wrote: > > Then surely it should be possible to publish this at PG of Australia since, up until > recently, their copyright law was Life + 50 and the recent extensions do not (I believe) > apply to books which had already fallen into the public domain. > The text of the 1939 English translation of Mein Kampf was posted at PG of Australia years ago. (September 2002, to be exact) Andrew From jtinsley at pobox.com Sun May 22 08:00:51 2005 From: jtinsley at pobox.com (Jim Tinsley) Date: Sun May 22 08:02:22 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG and Creative Commons In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050521205249.025b2350@baechler.net> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050521205249.025b2350@baechler.net> Message-ID: <20050522150051.GA25333@panix.com> On Sat, May 21, 2005 at 09:01:17PM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote: >Hi. Is there any kind of official statement or PG policy concerning works >licensed under a Creative Commons license? Are such works >acceptable? If you look at V.71 in the FAQ, you will see the exact minimum terms that PG needs to post a copyrighted book: "perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive rights to distribute this book in electronic form through Project Gutenberg Web sites, CDs or other current and future formats. No royalties are due for these rights." Whether the medium of transfer of these rights is a letter, or a CC license, or a handwritten note attached to a pigeon's leg doesn't really matter. Do, however, remember that not all CC licenses are the same. Most of the "usual" CC licenses work for us, but, for example, the "Founders Copyright" CC license doesn't. We had the CC question with Cory Doctorow's first novel, and in that case he refused to give us a specific permission to publish his novel, on the basis that doing so would undermine the intent of his CC license, so we went ahead based on the CC license alone. A rather elegant exchange, that was. We can also take the GFDL, and any other published intent on the part of the copyright holder that gives us the rights we need to do it. >Also, is there anyone maintaining the PG music archive? No. >I am asking because I know of several composers of classic MIDI files. I >am planning to ask them to consider licensing their works under a Creative >Commons type license. I can also mention Project Gutenberg and/or drop a >name of someone for them to contact if they want or will allow PG to >distribute their works. This would be good for PG because some composers >have done a lot of classical music from a number of pre-1922 >compositions. I don't think I can help with sheet music, and of course I >have no way of knowing that the sheet music sources they used are in the >public domain. I know that some of them also make various files available >in mp3, but I don't think they offer other formats. Is this something I >should consider on behalf of PG or not? If PG is interested in something >like this, I would also ask them to consider just releasing their files >into the public domain, but I doubt if that will happen. Thanks, and feel >free to write me off list if it's easier. I'm a little unclear about what we're talking about here. You're saying "composers", which implies original work or original arrangement of a work, but from pre-1923. A direct note-for-note copy of sheet music from the public domain to a new format like MIDI would never be copyrighted in the first place, at least in the USA, so a CC license would not apply. Only derivative works would, and then, in either case, the PD status of the original would need to be demonstrated: there's an awful lot of sheet music out there now that has been put into copyright by some editing or arrangement post-1923. This is one of those things that is difficult to discuss in the abstract; you'd need to establish clearance on a case-by-case basis, and you'd have to establish it with Greg, since he signs off on the not-straightforward cases. I can tell you that if you produce TP&V of the pre-23 sheet music, you can then clear that piece, and submit it in any format. jim From jtinsley at pobox.com Sun May 22 10:08:59 2005 From: jtinsley at pobox.com (Jim Tinsley) Date: Sun May 22 10:10:43 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Help with video formats Message-ID: <20050522170859.GA4921@panix.com> Etext #116, Video of the first moon landing, needs attention, and I'm no video format expert. There are three files: landiavi.zip landimpg.zip landiqt.zip all in etext94/. The AVI is perfect. The MPG has perfect picture, but no sound. Given the disparity in file sizes, I don't think this was corruption. The QT/MOV won't play for me at all. Yes, I may not have the latest QT, but this file is from 1994!! :-) The obvious solution is to make MPG and QT files from the AVI. A complication that, thankfully, we don't need to deal with is that the landiqt.zip on archive.org is corrupt; same file size but some bytes different, leading to a corrupt zip. Not a problem, because we can work from the file on ibiblio, and just replace the archive version. If someone knowledgeable in this area could contact me off-list, and help me towards getting a good solution, I'd appreciate it! jim From grythumn at gmail.com Sun May 22 10:35:06 2005 From: grythumn at gmail.com (Robert Cicconetti) Date: Sun May 22 10:36:38 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Help with video formats In-Reply-To: <20050522170859.GA4921@panix.com> References: <20050522170859.GA4921@panix.com> Message-ID: <15cfa2a505052210357812785e@mail.gmail.com> Sending this to the whole list because I think it rates some discussion.. That mpeg is an elemental stream, video only. If there is a higher quality original source somewhere, I'd be happy to reencode into different formats... video codecs have come a long way in the last 10 years. There was a DVD released a few years back by NASA, but it was a Fox release.. undoubtably tied up in copyright somewhere. Commentary, new presentation, and at the least a collection copyright. 3 discs, 10 hours of video, or some such. As to formats: At the minimum, I would suggest something similar to archive.org's system.. a high quality archival version (Of an open standard.. MPEG-2 will probably be around for a while, even with the patents) and then smaller versions (I would suggest MPEG-1, MPEG-4, and QT/Sorenson.. although the last is debatable.) MPEG-1 can be played well on a P-90 or so, and is widely available both on Windows and other operating systems. If you want to go lower, Indeo or Cinepack will work even on 486s.. but the codecs to support them are getting difficult to find. R C On 5/22/05, Jim Tinsley wrote: > Etext #116, Video of the first moon landing, needs attention, > and I'm no video format expert. > > There are three files: > > landiavi.zip > landimpg.zip > landiqt.zip > > all in etext94/. > > The AVI is perfect. > The MPG has perfect picture, but no sound. Given the > disparity in file sizes, I don't think this was corruption. > The QT/MOV won't play for me at all. Yes, I may not > have the latest QT, but this file is from 1994!! :-) > > The obvious solution is to make MPG and QT files from > the AVI. > > A complication that, thankfully, we don't need to deal with > is that the landiqt.zip on archive.org is corrupt; same file > size but some bytes different, leading to a corrupt zip. Not > a problem, because we can work from the file on ibiblio, and > just replace the archive version. > > If someone knowledgeable in this area could contact me > off-list, and help me towards getting a good solution, > I'd appreciate it! > > jim > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From collin at xs4all.nl Sun May 22 11:25:24 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Sun May 22 11:13:49 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Help with video formats In-Reply-To: <15cfa2a505052210357812785e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050522170859.GA4921@panix.com> Message-ID: <4290EAB4.31934.1F10518@localhost> > That mpeg is an elemental stream, video only. If there is a higher > quality original source somewhere, I'd be happy to reencode into > different formats... video codecs have come a long way in the last 10 > years. There was a DVD released a few years back by NASA, but it was a > Fox release.. undoubtably tied up in copyright somewhere. Commentary, > new presentation, and at the least a collection copyright. 3 discs, 10 > hours of video, or some such. seems to supply links to NASA videos of the first moon landing. Otherwise perhaps people at NASA might help. Assuming of course that the original poster cannot be traced. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From jtinsley at pobox.com Sun May 22 11:35:43 2005 From: jtinsley at pobox.com (Jim Tinsley) Date: Sun May 22 11:37:16 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Help with video formats In-Reply-To: <4290EAB4.31934.1F10518@localhost> References: <20050522170859.GA4921@panix.com> <4290EAB4.31934.1F10518@localhost> Message-ID: <20050522183543.GC4921@panix.com> On Sun, May 22, 2005 at 08:25:24PM +0200, Branko Collin wrote: > >> That mpeg is an elemental stream, video only. If there is a higher >> quality original source somewhere, I'd be happy to reencode into >> different formats... video codecs have come a long way in the last 10 >> years. There was a DVD released a few years back by NASA, but it was a >> Fox release.. undoubtably tied up in copyright somewhere. Commentary, >> new presentation, and at the least a collection copyright. 3 discs, 10 >> hours of video, or some such. > >Anasa.gov> seems to supply links to NASA videos of the first moon >landing. Otherwise perhaps people at NASA might help. > >Assuming of course that the original poster cannot be traced. Why, when we have a perfectly good AVI, do we have to trace anybody? Google gives me, like, 400 converter programs immediately. I just thought there would be someone here who could _do_ it with more expertise than I. jim From grythumn at gmail.com Sun May 22 12:04:51 2005 From: grythumn at gmail.com (Robert Cicconetti) Date: Sun May 22 12:06:27 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Help with video formats In-Reply-To: <20050522183543.GC4921@panix.com> References: <20050522170859.GA4921@panix.com> <4290EAB4.31934.1F10518@localhost> <20050522183543.GC4921@panix.com> Message-ID: <15cfa2a5050522120414a4fdb@mail.gmail.com> On 5/22/05, Jim Tinsley wrote: > On Sun, May 22, 2005 at 08:25:24PM +0200, Branko Collin wrote: > > > >> That mpeg is an elemental stream, video only. If there is a higher > >> quality original source somewhere, I'd be happy to reencode into > >> different formats... video codecs have come a long way in the last 10 > >> years. There was a DVD released a few years back by NASA, but it was a > >> Fox release.. undoubtably tied up in copyright somewhere. Commentary, > >> new presentation, and at the least a collection copyright. 3 discs, 10 > >> hours of video, or some such. > > > > >Anasa.gov> seems to supply links to NASA videos of the first moon > >landing. Otherwise perhaps people at NASA might help. > > > >Assuming of course that the original poster cannot be traced. > > Why, when we have a perfectly good AVI, do we have to trace anybody? > Google gives me, like, 400 converter programs immediately. I just > thought there would be someone here who could _do_ it with more > expertise than I. Because it is not a perfectly good avi.. it is low resolution, and very noisy. I can convert it to another codec.. I can even run a temporal filter on it and reduce the noise a little. Or I can grab the audio track off the avi, reencode it, and mux it with the mpeg.. which is also noisy, but in a different fashion (block artifacts, ringing around edges, etc.) But all of that is not as good as getting a more accurate capture of the original. To me, converting those video files is like automated conversion of text to html.. useful to some, but referring back to the original text delivers a much better final product. For 1994, that is very good digital video footage. For 2005.. well, most camera phones do better. BTW, the mac file is fine, if mislabelled.. it is binhexed. Once you extract the data fork of 0005.QT, it plays just fine. Actually, I'd say it the best of the three, by a fair margin. R C From Bowerbird at aol.com Sun May 22 13:14:12 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sun May 22 13:15:50 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: automated conversion of text to .html Message-ID: <1d8.3d5826f9.2fc24214@aol.com> robert said: > To me, converting those video files is like > automated conversion of text to html.. > useful to some, but > referring back to the original text > delivers a much better final product. i know you were _trying_ to say something there, but i don't think i got it. would you please rephrase? because compared to creating a .html book manually -- which is how a good many people create them -- i think doing it automatically is _much_ superior, given end-results that are even roughly equivalent... :+) when you said "referring back to the original text", did you mean looking at the original paper-book itself, either directly or by viewing scans of its pages? -bowerbird From prosfilaes at gmail.com Sun May 22 13:21:37 2005 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Sun May 22 13:23:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG and Creative Commons In-Reply-To: <20050522150051.GA25333@panix.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050521205249.025b2350@baechler.net> <20050522150051.GA25333@panix.com> Message-ID: <6d99d1fd05052213214e4a2b3d@mail.gmail.com> On 5/22/05, Jim Tinsley wrote: > We had the CC question with Cory Doctorow's first novel, and in > that case he refused to give us a specific permission to publish > his novel, on the basis that doing so would undermine the intent > of his CC license, so we went ahead based on the CC license alone. What about his second book? From jtinsley at pobox.com Sun May 22 14:42:15 2005 From: jtinsley at pobox.com (Jim Tinsley) Date: Sun May 22 14:43:51 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Help with video formats In-Reply-To: <15cfa2a5050522120414a4fdb@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050522170859.GA4921@panix.com> <4290EAB4.31934.1F10518@localhost> <20050522183543.GC4921@panix.com> <15cfa2a5050522120414a4fdb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050522214215.GB13637@panix.com> On Sun, May 22, 2005 at 03:04:51PM -0400, Robert Cicconetti wrote: >On 5/22/05, Jim Tinsley wrote: >> On Sun, May 22, 2005 at 08:25:24PM +0200, Branko Collin wrote: > >But all of that is not as good as getting a more accurate capture of >the original. To me, converting those video files is like automated >conversion of text to html.. useful to some, but referring back to the >original text delivers a much better final product. > >For 1994, that is very good digital video footage. For 2005.. well, >most camera phones do better. For 11 years, anybody could have come to us with improvements to it, and they still can. Such is the nature of PG; things get built on, improved, re-formatted, whatever. 16MB was quite a chunk of real-estate to devote to this back in 1994. 16MB is not so scary now! If you, or someone, can get better originals, then you should by all means let us know. >BTW, the mac file is fine, if mislabelled.. it is binhexed. Once you >extract the data fork of 0005.QT, it plays just fine. Actually, I'd >say it the best of the three, by a fair margin. Thanks! That's all I needed to know to restore the file to a state playable by the average user today. Binhex . . . I haven't used that in YEARS. If the other two had also had the wrong extensions, I do think I would've got suspicious; as it was, and with the archive.org corruption, I didn't look hard enough. OK, the MOV is now fixed on both servers, and that's an end to the errata requirement. jim From jtinsley at pobox.com Sun May 22 14:43:34 2005 From: jtinsley at pobox.com (Jim Tinsley) Date: Sun May 22 14:45:09 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG and Creative Commons In-Reply-To: <6d99d1fd05052213214e4a2b3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050521205249.025b2350@baechler.net> <20050522150051.GA25333@panix.com> <6d99d1fd05052213214e4a2b3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050522214334.GC13637@panix.com> On Sun, May 22, 2005 at 03:21:37PM -0500, David Starner wrote: >On 5/22/05, Jim Tinsley wrote: >> We had the CC question with Cory Doctorow's first novel, and in >> that case he refused to give us a specific permission to publish >> his novel, on the basis that doing so would undermine the intent >> of his CC license, so we went ahead based on the CC license alone. > >What about his second book? It's on my list of things to do when I don't have more urgent things to do. :-) Besides, after his license change on the first, I wasn't in a hurry to start on the second when it came out. jim From holden.mcgroin at dsl.pipex.com Sun May 22 15:03:20 2005 From: holden.mcgroin at dsl.pipex.com (Holden McGroin) Date: Sun May 22 15:04:54 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Help with video formats In-Reply-To: <20050522183543.GC4921@panix.com> References: <20050522170859.GA4921@panix.com> <4290EAB4.31934.1F10518@localhost> <20050522183543.GC4921@panix.com> Message-ID: <429101A8.5030202@dsl.pipex.com> Jim Tinsley wrote: > Why, when we have a perfectly good AVI, do we have to trace anybody? > Google gives me, like, 400 converter programs immediately. I just > thought there would be someone here who could _do_ it with more > expertise than I. OK, here are a few reasons why the original AVI _isn't_ perfectly good: - It's extremely low resolution (240 x 180), not good in a Hi-Def world - It's blocky - It has many visible compression artifacts - The audio is uncompressed but at 22 KHz, again not very Hi-Def So, there are a few ways we could improve it: - Increase the resolution - Use a more modern CODEC - If we're _going_ to use MPEG-1, use a more modern compressor - Increase the audio fidelity - Create a losslessly compressed version (feasibility?) - Create a version using an open format (Ogg Theora + Vorbis / FLAC?) - Add audio into the MPG - Include an increased bitrate version for those on broadband+ And, of course, the reason why we shouldn't start off with the original PG versions: they're low-fi and they aren't going to get any better by re-encoding them. I second the other poster's suggestion to revisit the files. I'll even help if my help's needed. Cheers, Holden From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Sun May 22 15:20:17 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Sun May 22 15:21:57 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City Message-ID: <8e.27dc528d.2fc25fa1@aol.com> In a message dated 5/22/2005 2:01:50 AM Mountain Daylight Time, holden.mcgroin@dsl.pipex.com writes: Then surely it should be possible to publish this at PG of Australia since, up until recently, their copyright law was Life + 50 and the recent extensions do not (I believe) apply to books which had already fallen into the public domain. I really cannot imagine who would complain to us about publishing MEIN KAMPF if that is what we're still talking about, whether it's legally public domain or not. It's all over the Net. That's why I don't think it's really essential for us to do it. Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050522/845a8499/attachment.html From holden.mcgroin at dsl.pipex.com Sun May 22 15:23:13 2005 From: holden.mcgroin at dsl.pipex.com (Holden McGroin) Date: Sun May 22 15:24:52 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Attempt to add: Flight From The City In-Reply-To: <8e.27dc528d.2fc25fa1@aol.com> References: <8e.27dc528d.2fc25fa1@aol.com> Message-ID: <42910651.9000101@dsl.pipex.com> Gutenberg9443@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/22/2005 2:01:50 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > holden.mcgroin@dsl.pipex.com writes: > > Then surely it should be possible to publish this at PG of Australia > since, up until > recently, their copyright law was Life + 50 and the recent > extensions do not (I believe) > apply to books which had already fallen into the public domain. > > I really cannot imagine who would complain to us about publishing > MEIN KAMPF if that is what we're still talking about, whether it's > legally public domain or not. It's all over the Net. That's why I don't > think it's really essential for us to do it. Yeah, you're probably right. Then again, there's some part of me that says the more places we have copies, the more likely it is that such a valuable document from an extremely important time in our recent history will be preserved. PG's just great because it gets mirrored all over the place :-) Cheers, Holden From cannona at fireantproductions.com Sun May 22 17:43:27 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Sun May 22 17:45:33 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] copy of the archive on DVD Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050522192210.01c46618@mail.fireantproductions.com> Please note that this is only an internal offer, not one for the general public. If any of you active volunteers have a need for a copy of all of the zip files (minus mp3s and human genom) from the archive on DVDs, please let me know. Thanks! Sincerely Aaron Cannon -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) From grythumn at gmail.com Sun May 22 21:03:30 2005 From: grythumn at gmail.com (Robert Cicconetti) Date: Sun May 22 21:05:18 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Help with video formats In-Reply-To: <15cfa2a50505222101761ec63@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050522170859.GA4921@panix.com> <4290EAB4.31934.1F10518@localhost> <20050522183543.GC4921@panix.com> <15cfa2a5050522120414a4fdb@mail.gmail.com> <20050522214215.GB13637@panix.com> <15cfa2a50505222101761ec63@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <15cfa2a5050522210337e5831e@mail.gmail.com> On 5/22/05, Jim Tinsley wrote: > On Sun, May 22, 2005 at 03:04:51PM -0400, Robert Cicconetti wrote: > >On 5/22/05, Jim Tinsley wrote: > >> On Sun, May 22, 2005 at 08:25:24PM +0200, Branko Collin wrote: > > > >But all of that is not as good as getting a more accurate capture of > >the original. To me, converting those video files is like automated > >conversion of text to html.. useful to some, but referring back to the > >original text delivers a much better final product. > > > >For 1994, that is very good digital video footage. For 2005.. well, > >most camera phones do better. > > For 11 years, anybody could have come to us with improvements to > it, and they still can. Such is the nature of PG; things get built > on, improved, re-formatted, whatever. 16MB was quite a chunk of > real-estate to devote to this back in 1994. 16MB is not so scary > now! If you, or someone, can get better originals, then you should > by all means let us know. I think the collection represented by that DVD is likely the best transfer of the original 16mm and television coverage that is widely available.. the question is how much is clearable under Rule 8. And that is a rather large can of worms.. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00009XYYF/ is the particular work I am referring to. If it is clearable, then at some point I can purchase a copy, rip the scene.. wait, now we get into DMCA territory.. you can why I am a little hesitant here. The ideal solution, of course, would be to get the footage straight from NASA. Anyone have any contacts there? ;) R C (Whoops.. didn't check the To: box the first time..) From scott_bulkmail at productarchitect.com Sun May 22 23:45:14 2005 From: scott_bulkmail at productarchitect.com (Scott Lawton) Date: Sun May 22 23:54:35 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG for Mac users In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Is there a sub-group to help Mac users to create e-texts that will >communicate successfully with PCs? Are there individual volunteers who use >Macs and can advise others? It should suffice to post questions to this list. Feel free to CC me. I can't help with PG-specific issues, but can help with general issues such as cross-platform text and HTML. -- Cheers, Scott S. Lawton http://Classicosm.com/ - classic books http://ProductArchitect.com/ - consulting From tb at baechler.net Mon May 23 02:18:16 2005 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Mon May 23 02:18:50 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG and Creative Commons In-Reply-To: <20050522150051.GA25333@panix.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050521205249.025b2350@baechler.net> <5.2.0.9.0.20050521205249.025b2350@baechler.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050523020240.03d82070@bisinc.us> At 11:00 AM 5/22/2005 -0400, you wrote: >a CC license, or a handwritten note attached to a pigeon's leg >doesn't really matter. Do, however, remember that not all CC >licenses are the same. Most of the "usual" CC licenses work for >us, but, for example, the "Founders Copyright" CC license doesn't. This is exactly what I was wondering about. Are you familiar with the CC 2.0 licenses? All require attribution. I am not familiar with the license you mentioned above, so I think that might have been phased out. That's why I asked if CC licenses are acceptable since I know there are different licenses that the authors or performers can use. Which ones are not OK for PG? >I'm a little unclear about what we're talking about here. You're saying >"composers", which implies original work or original arrangement of a >work, but from pre-1923. A direct note-for-note copy of sheet music from >the public domain to a new format like MIDI would never be copyrighted >in the first place, at least in the USA, so a CC license would not apply. OK, sorry I was unclear on this. I guess I used improper wording. According to almost all sites with classical MIDI works, i.e. performances based on the sheet music, there seems to be two different issues. One is the sheet music itself, which of course is in the public domain. The other is the actual MIDI performances. Almost all performers copyright their MIDI files, using the argument that they are an original performance of a classical work. They would probably acknowledge that the original sheet music is public domain, but their performances aren't. Many are unclear as to what can be done with their files but most allow personal, noncommercial use only. >Only derivative works would, and then, in either case, the PD status of >the original would need to be demonstrated: there's an awful lot of >sheet music out there now that has been put into copyright by some editing >or arrangement post-1923. This is one of those things that is difficult >to discuss in the abstract; you'd need to establish clearance on a >case-by-case basis, and you'd have to establish it with Greg, since he >signs off on the not-straightforward cases. Unfortunately, I don't have a specific case in mind yet. My idea is to get as much general information on this as possible, draft an email message briefly explaining CC and PG, asking the performers to first consider a CC license and if they are willing to do that, also mention PG, and see what happens. I do have specific sites in mind, but I am wondering if this is something worth pursuing. If there are going to be legal issues to deal with that would prevent PG from accepting the files because of possible clearance issues, I probably won't bother. I have found many artists and performers to be very difficult and generally want all their questions answered up front. They would of course want their rights protected, or at least some rights, which is why I would mention the CC licenses first. If I am going in the wrong direction with this or if anyone has a better approach, please tell me. I would like to see the music archive expand, but I don't want to create lots of unnecessary work for Greg since there might be a chance that the MIDI would not clear anyway. From davedoty at hotmail.com Mon May 23 04:45:08 2005 From: davedoty at hotmail.com (Dave Doty) Date: Mon May 23 04:47:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG and Creative Commons In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050523020240.03d82070@bisinc.us> Message-ID: >From: Tony Baechler >The other is the actual MIDI performances. Almost all performers copyright >their MIDI files, using the argument that they are an original performance >of a classical work. I'm not sure how MIDI works. If you give two MIDI composers the exact same sheet music, would there be differences in the files they generated? In other words, does they basically just enter the sheet music and a music file comes out, or is there a task of arrangement that produces a unique file no one else could create exactly on their own? >If there are going to be legal issues to deal with that would prevent PG >from accepting the files because of possible clearance issues, I probably >won't bother. One of the posts in one of these threads spelled out exactly what PG requires, perpetual, global, yadda yadda (sorry, I don't remember, and I've deleted the e-mail.) You should look for that, or maybe someone can repost it. Then, you could show the composers, say this is what you would have to grant in your license for PG to use it, and they could give you an answer then and there. PG is noncommercial but not personal, so it sounds like their current terms wouldn't work, unless they were willing to amend. Dave Doty From malcolm.farmer at gmail.com Mon May 23 07:12:28 2005 From: malcolm.farmer at gmail.com (Malcolm Farmer) Date: Mon May 23 07:14:19 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG and Creative Commons In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050523020240.03d82070@bisinc.us> Message-ID: <8baaac1d05052307122707c6a@mail.gmail.com> > >The other is the actual MIDI performances. Almost all performers copyright > >their MIDI files, using the argument that they are an original performance > >of a classical work. > > I'm not sure how MIDI works. If you give two MIDI composers the exact same > sheet music, would there be differences in the files they generated? In > other words, does they basically just enter the sheet music and a music file > comes out, or is there a task of arrangement that produces a unique file no > one else could create exactly on their own? MIDI basically records the instruments used, the note sequences, and their timings: so you could presumably convert a music score to a MIDI file by software. No creatibve input required, but you'd just have a mechanical performance. Or you could capture the performance of a live musician: all the subtle or not so subtle timing variations that distinguish that person's style and make it sound unlike a mechanical performance. Whe you do that, you have a file that is is a recording of that person's performance, just as a CD or tape or 78rpm disk is a recording of what that person's performance sounded like. You or I (even if I could play an instrument) couldn't recreate that data from the score. An interesting item on grabbing performance data from recordings: http://edwardwillett.blogspot.com/2005/05/live-performances-from-dead-pianists.html From alex at awstudios.net Mon May 23 07:55:35 2005 From: alex at awstudios.net (Alex Wilson) Date: Mon May 23 07:57:15 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG and Creative Commons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/23/05 7:45 AM, "Dave Doty" wrote: >> From: Tony Baechler > >> The other is the actual MIDI performances. Almost all performers copyright >> their MIDI files, using the argument that they are an original performance >> of a classical work. > > I'm not sure how MIDI works. If you give two MIDI composers the exact same > sheet music, would there be differences in the files they generated? In > other words, does they basically just enter the sheet music and a music file > comes out, or is there a task of arrangement that produces a unique file no > one else could create exactly on their own? Most musicians I know who create midi (all for their own projects) use a midi keyboard to capture a performance (which, in my view, is an interpretation) of a given work. I don't think I know anyone who creates MIDI files from public domain sheet music for online distribution, so I don't know if my musician friends are exceptions and not the rule. Alex. -- http://www.telltaleweekly.org - Funding a Free Audiobook Library http://www.alexwilson.com - Alex Wilson Studios LLC From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon May 23 10:34:09 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon May 23 10:36:04 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG for Mac users Message-ID: one of the top 5% said: > Are there individual volunteers who use Macs and can advise others? it is also the case that, since distributed proofreaders is web-based, mac users can get along just fine other there. just so you know... -bowerbird From gbnewby at pglaf.org Mon May 23 11:33:18 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Mon May 23 11:33:19 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG and Creative Commons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050523183318.GC23123@pglaf.org> On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 10:55:35AM -0400, Alex Wilson wrote: > On 5/23/05 7:45 AM, "Dave Doty" wrote: > > >> From: Tony Baechler > > > >> The other is the actual MIDI performances. Almost all performers copyright > >> their MIDI files, using the argument that they are an original performance > >> of a classical work. > > > > I'm not sure how MIDI works. If you give two MIDI composers the exact same > > sheet music, would there be differences in the files they generated? In > > other words, does they basically just enter the sheet music and a music file > > comes out, or is there a task of arrangement that produces a unique file no > > one else could create exactly on their own? > > Most musicians I know who create midi (all for their own projects) use a > midi keyboard to capture a performance (which, in my view, is an > interpretation) of a given work. I don't think I know anyone who creates > MIDI files from public domain sheet music for online distribution, so I > don't know if my musician friends are exceptions and not the rule. > > Alex. There are some different situations. PG has only a few MIDI files, but most were generated automatically by something like Finale from digitized sheet music. Our view (which is not a settled matter, but our contributors have agreed with) is that such files are public domain. Our Beethoven's 5th, to the contrary, is listed as copyrighted because it came from a performance as Alex described. This stuff is a little vague, and there just isn't enough legal precedent to back it up. So, we go with our usual "sweat of the brow != copyright" for digitizing musical scores, but go with "performance == copyright" for when those scores are "performed." Digital transformations of various types are therefore not copyrighted. But, again, we try to make this clear to contributors, so that we're not labeling something as public domain when they wish to hold a copyright. Case-by-case... -- Greg From gbnewby at pglaf.org Mon May 23 11:47:47 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Mon May 23 11:47:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] so, jim, please tell me what it is that you do In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050520040520.045ab8f0@baechler.net> References: <1f3.9fc7a59.2fbcd59c@aol.com> <1f3.9fc7a59.2fbcd59c@aol.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20050520040520.045ab8f0@baechler.net> Message-ID: <20050523184747.GC23700@pglaf.org> On Fri, May 20, 2005 at 04:09:57AM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote: > Hi Greg. Can I borrow this for my draft of the newsletter when I get > around to doing it? This is exactly the type of thing I'm looking for. I Definitely, assuming Jim doesn't mind being profiled. I think that bios of various PG folks in various roles would be quite interesting to add to the newsletters. -- Greg > would be interested in the same type of information about the other > whitewashers. Joe, David W, David P and Carlo come immediately to mind, > but I'm sure there are others I've overlooked. It would be nice to run > something like this as a monthly feature. While this is not yet an > official call for newsletter content, if anyone else wants to write > something like what Greg wrote or can point me to additional information > which I can use, I would appreciate it. > > Also, I don't intend to leave out the key leaders at DP or just the > ordinary volunteers, but since the whitewashers are the ones actually doing > the posting, and since I get posts from them regularly on the posted list, > it seems like a good place to start. > > At 11:07 AM 5/18/2005 -0700, you wrote: > >I'll write a quick intro to what Jim does. Meet Jim: > > > >Jim Tinsley is one of the 5 or so main people who do eBook > >"whitewashing." In other words, he does the final > >checks and posts eBooks, and announces them via > >the Posted list (http://lists.pglaf.org). > > (snip) > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From radicks at bellsouth.net Mon May 23 15:48:07 2005 From: radicks at bellsouth.net (Dick Adicks) Date: Mon May 23 15:58:27 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] so, jim, please tell me what it is that you do In-Reply-To: <20050523184747.GC23700@pglaf.org> Message-ID: > From: Greg Newby > Reply-To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion > Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:47:47 -0700 > To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion > Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] so, jim, please tell me what it is that you do > > On Fri, May 20, 2005 at 04:09:57AM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote: >> Hi Greg. Can I borrow this for my draft of the newsletter when I get >> around to doing it? This is exactly the type of thing I'm looking for. I > > Definitely, assuming Jim doesn't mind being profiled. I think > that bios of various PG folks in various roles would be quite > interesting to add to the newsletters. > -- Greg As a writer of local histories, I endorse this proposal. The day will come when somebody will want to write a history of PG. Dick Adicks > From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon May 23 17:00:35 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon May 23 17:02:40 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] so, jim, please tell me what it is that you do Message-ID: dick said: > As a writer of local histories, I endorse this proposal. The day > will come when somebody will want to write a history of PG. the historians will have a field-day with _that_! :+) but yes, everyone's contributions should be documented thoroughly, for the simple and correct sake of giving credit where credit is due. and inclusion in the newsletter should be just the first step. i think a wiki would be the best way to go, so anyone who felt that they had been left out could write themselves in, with plenty of people on hand to go right back in and restore a sense of proportion if any one individual got out of hand... -bowerbird From krausyaoj at ameritech.net Mon May 23 18:22:15 2005 From: krausyaoj at ameritech.net (Jeffrey Kraus-yao) Date: Mon May 23 18:22:41 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG for Mac users In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001901c55fff$06e33560$0402a8c0@p3> I have produced a number of ebooks using a Macintosh. The key step is converting the MacRoman text to Unicode UTF-8 text. One option for this step is Cyclone available at http://free.abracode.com/cyclone/ I also use a program that I wrote using Symantec C++ as it is compatible with Mac OS 7 while Cyclone requires Mac OS 8.6. The tools and process I use for creating ebooks are listed below. Hardware: Macintosh Quadra 840AV, Color OneScanner 1200/30, Compaq Deskpro 667, and an RCA REB1200 ebook reader Software: Mac OS 7.6, Xerox TextBridge Pro 8, Microsoft Word 5.1, custom programs written using Symantec C++ 8, Windows 2000, Gemstar eBook Publisher, and REB Librarian Steps: 1. Scan book using TextBridge. This creates text files encoded using MacRoman and does not create image files. 2. First round of spell check and proofing using Word. 3. Dehyphenate using custom program. This program creates a dictionary of all words in the file and uses an external dictionary to decide which words to remove their hyphens. This can also be done manually using Word. 4. Convert MacRoman text file to UTF-8 text file. Also convert Macintosh line breaks, CR, to Windows line breaks, CR-LF. 5. Add minimal HTML markup which includes paragraph tags and HTML entities for non-ASCII characters. This is a separate file than the UTF-8 file and uses ASCII encoding. 6. Copy text files to computer running Windows 2000. 7. Add additional HTML markup for character styles, headers, and other formatting using printed book as source. 8. Convert HTML file to IMP format using Gemstar eBook Publisher. 9. Copy to REB1200 for proofing using REB Librarian. Make corrections to both text and HTML files. 10. Convert UTF-8 text file to ASCII encoding. The final results are three files: ASCII text file, UTF-8 text file, and an HTML file. Jeffrey Kraus-Yao -----Original Message----- From: gutvol-d-bounces@lists.pglaf.org [mailto:gutvol-d-bounces@lists.pglaf.org] On Behalf Of Dick Adicks Sent: 20 May, 2005 20:15 To: Gutvol-d Subject: [gutvol-d] PG for Mac users Is there a sub-group to help Mac users to create e-texts that will communicate successfully with PCs? Are there individual volunteers who use Macs and can advise others? Dick Adicks _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From nwolcott at dsdial.net Mon May 23 18:24:58 2005 From: nwolcott at dsdial.net (N Wolcott) Date: Mon May 23 19:05:52 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG and Creative Commons References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050523020240.03d82070@bisinc.us> <8baaac1d05052307122707c6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005401c56004$d0a77be0$379495ce@gw98> Could we create sheet music from Fats Waller records then? I'd go for that! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Malcolm Farmer" To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] PG and Creative Commons > > >The other is the actual MIDI performances. Almost all performers copyright > > >their MIDI files, using the argument that they are an original performance > > >of a classical work. > > > > I'm not sure how MIDI works. If you give two MIDI composers the exact same > > sheet music, would there be differences in the files they generated? In > > other words, does they basically just enter the sheet music and a music file > > comes out, or is there a task of arrangement that produces a unique file no > > one else could create exactly on their own? > > MIDI basically records the instruments used, the note sequences, and > their timings: so you could presumably convert a music score to a MIDI > file by software. No creatibve input required, but you'd just have a > mechanical performance. Or you could capture the performance of a > live musician: all the subtle or not so subtle timing variations that > distinguish that person's style and make it sound unlike a mechanical > performance. > Whe you do that, you have a file that is is a recording of that > person's performance, just as a CD or tape or 78rpm disk is a > recording of what that person's performance sounded like. You or I > (even if I could play an instrument) couldn't recreate that data from > the score. > > An interesting item on grabbing performance data from recordings: > http://edwardwillett.blogspot.com/2005/05/live-performances-from-dead-pianis ts.html > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From radicks at bellsouth.net Mon May 23 19:20:39 2005 From: radicks at bellsouth.net (Dick Adicks) Date: Mon May 23 19:31:03 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG for Mac users In-Reply-To: <001901c55fff$06e33560$0402a8c0@p3> Message-ID: Thanks for the helpful advice. I'm trying to apply it to Mac OS 8.6 and FineReader 5. Microsoft Word 4.0 seems to be a possibility. More later. Dick Adicks > From: "Jeffrey Kraus-yao" > Reply-To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion > Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 20:22:15 -0500 > To: "'Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion'" > Subject: RE: [gutvol-d] PG for Mac users > > I have produced a number of ebooks using a Macintosh. The key step is > converting the MacRoman text to Unicode UTF-8 text. One option for this > step is Cyclone available at http://free.abracode.com/cyclone/ I also > use a program that I wrote using Symantec C++ as it is compatible with > Mac OS 7 while Cyclone requires Mac OS 8.6. > > The tools and process I use for creating ebooks are listed below. > > Hardware: > Macintosh Quadra 840AV, Color OneScanner 1200/30, Compaq Deskpro 667, > and an RCA REB1200 ebook reader > > Software: > Mac OS 7.6, Xerox TextBridge Pro 8, Microsoft Word 5.1, custom programs > written using Symantec C++ 8, Windows 2000, Gemstar eBook Publisher, and > REB Librarian > > Steps: > 1. Scan book using TextBridge. This creates text files encoded using > MacRoman and does not create image files. > 2. First round of spell check and proofing using Word. > 3. Dehyphenate using custom program. This program creates a dictionary > of all words in the file and uses an external dictionary to decide which > words to remove their hyphens. This can also be done manually using > Word. > 4. Convert MacRoman text file to UTF-8 text file. Also convert Macintosh > line breaks, CR, to Windows line breaks, CR-LF. > 5. Add minimal HTML markup which includes paragraph tags and HTML > entities for non-ASCII characters. This is a separate file than the > UTF-8 file and uses ASCII encoding. > 6. Copy text files to computer running Windows 2000. > 7. Add additional HTML markup for character styles, headers, and other > formatting using printed book as source. > 8. Convert HTML file to IMP format using Gemstar eBook Publisher. > 9. Copy to REB1200 for proofing using REB Librarian. Make corrections to > both text and HTML files. > 10. Convert UTF-8 text file to ASCII encoding. > > The final results are three files: ASCII text file, UTF-8 text file, and > an HTML file. > > Jeffrey Kraus-Yao > > > -----Original Message----- > From: gutvol-d-bounces@lists.pglaf.org > [mailto:gutvol-d-bounces@lists.pglaf.org] On Behalf Of Dick Adicks > Sent: 20 May, 2005 20:15 > To: Gutvol-d > Subject: [gutvol-d] PG for Mac users > > > Is there a sub-group to help Mac users to create e-texts that will > communicate successfully with PCs? Are there individual volunteers who > use Macs and can advise others? > > Dick Adicks > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon May 23 20:03:41 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon May 23 20:05:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG for Mac users Message-ID: <1ab.391afb5c.2fc3f38d@aol.com> jeffrey said: > Mac OS 7.6 wow. i'm impressed! :+) *** dick said: > Thanks for the helpful advice. > I'm trying to apply it to Mac OS 8.6 and FineReader 5. > Microsoft Word 4.0 seems to be a possibility. More later. i've got some software that can help you guys out. (at least i hope my stuff will run on 7.6, not sure. and it will also run on the windows 2000 machine.) i'll get in touch with you backchannel in a few days. -bowerbird From tb at baechler.net Tue May 24 01:07:49 2005 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Tue May 24 01:08:39 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Compliment Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050524010500.03609990@baechler.net> Hello volunteers. I mentioned PG to this person some time ago. I wasn't sure if she would be interested or not. She is in Finland and I know many books in non-English languages had been posted and mentioned that she could probably find something in which she was interested. Here is her response. Hi, >Last time that I wrote to you I promised to go to teh Gutenbert site >later. Now I did, and what I think is fine about it is that they don't >have only books in text but also audio books - I'm sure you've known this >before. Wel, didn't find what I was looking for but it was delightful to >learn about audio books - read both by humans and synthetic voice. Haven't >downloaded any of them yet so I don't know what they sound like. >I really think that kind of project is really a precious thing. >Thanks for giving me a hint. >Regards, Marianne N?r?nen > Tony Baechler Maintainer, goldenaudio.net (TM) online archives http://goldenaudio.net/ From kouhia at nic.funet.fi Tue May 24 06:13:27 2005 From: kouhia at nic.funet.fi (Juhana Sadeharju) Date: Tue May 24 06:13:38 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Da Vinci Code Message-ID: Hello. The TV document "The Real Da Vinci Code" mentioned the book Le Conte du Graal by french author Chretien de Troyes as a first romance telling about the Holy Grail. Year was 1000+. In subsequent years 5 other major romances by other authors were written. What were they? The document also mentioned John Harding (1500+) as a Holy Grail author. I hope all these books ends up to PG archives! Juhana -- http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/linux-graphics-dev for developers of open source graphics software From geoff.horton at gmail.com Tue May 24 08:15:27 2005 From: geoff.horton at gmail.com (Geoff Horton) Date: Tue May 24 08:15:32 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Da Vinci Code In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94e5f596050524081516e1b11a@mail.gmail.com> > In subsequent years 5 other major romances by other authors > were written. What were they? Thomas Mallory's Le Morte d'Artur would have to be another, and probably the best known of them all. Geoff From collin at xs4all.nl Tue May 24 12:44:05 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Tue May 24 12:31:05 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Eldred denied once again Message-ID: <4293A025.17676.12BF0FD@localhost> The DC District Court has ruled against Eric Eldred in Luck's Music Library v. Gonzalez. If Eldred had won, and if I understand this correctly, a number of works would have returned to the public domain. http://www.corante.com/importance/archives/2005/05/24/dc_circuit_rejec ts_challenge_to_congress_removing_works_from_the_public_domain.php (Or go to http://www.corante.com/importance/ and scroll down the page.) -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From jon at noring.name Wed May 25 08:29:54 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Wed May 25 08:30:13 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [for the graphics wizards] Cleaning up original Burton "Kama Sutra" page scans -- need advice/help Message-ID: <507530706.20050525092954@noring.name> [There are no doubt a few graphics wizards here who might have some good advice to share on the following message I've been posting on various forums and groups. Of course, let me know if PG would be interested in archiving the cleaned up page scans. As noted below, I've already started the process at DP to produce structured digital text of this book, which then will be fed back to PG. Thanks!] I'm now working to "clean up" the 182 page images from a recent scan of a very rare and noteworthy public domain book. The cleaned-up scans will be released to the public (such as given to the Internet Archive) for free access. [For those interested, the book is the 1885 second printing of the second edition of Sir Richard F. Burton's "Kama Sutra of Vatsyayana".] The scans were done at 600 dpi (optical) 256-color greyscale (there's no color in the book), to capture sufficient fine-detail to aid in the cleanup process. Of course, the book was chopped (the binding was falling apart anyway) and each page scanned on a flat-bed, so there's no page distortion caused by trying to scan a bound book. There are no illustrations -- it's all black and white text. I've already deskewed, cropped, centered and size-normalized all 182 pages. (For those interested, links to two sample partially-cleaned pages are given below.) In the cleanup process, I'd like to convert what I now have into 600-dpi *bitonal* (black and white) with uniform and nicely readable character density, removal of "pepper", cleanup of larger blotches, etc. I recognize there will be some handwork required, particularly to remove larger "pepper" and blotches, and repair a few characters, etc., but of course want to minimize handwork. [Note that the purpose of the cleanup is for direct human-use of the scans, and not solely for OCR purposes which doesn't require the planned level of cleanup. For example, I plan to produce a DjVu version for direct reading. For those who will probably ask, the raw page scans have already been uploaded to Distributed Proofreaders for conversion to structured digital text.] Unfortunately, what complicates the clean-up process is that the original book is in poor and variable condition. The paper is quite yellowed and darkened, and many pages are quite faded. Were the original in mint condition with good, uniform ink-to-paper contrast, I wouldn't be posting this request for advice. But the overall poor quality and page-to-page variation is taxing my graphics abilities to produce a clean finished product with reasonably readable and uniform character density (at 600-dpi bitonal.) Here are two sample pages, each about 4.5 megs in size (2550x3900 greyscale): http://www.openreader.org/kamasutra/page031.png (good condition) http://www.openreader.org/kamasutra/page106.png (poor condition) I would assume that others have had similar needs and have come up with various processing tricks and even built special tools to aid in the clean-up process (e.g., how to auto-remove small "pepper", the one to few pixel wide black spots on the white background?). I look forward to your advice and even help if you are interested (I will upload all the partially-cleaned images somewhere if you want to help with the actual clean-up process -- the whole set of images totals 680 megs.) [As a final note, I use Paint Shop Pro 9, but do not have Photoshop. But since PSP9 is fairly powerful, I assume that many, if not all, recommended Photoshop processes will map over to PSP9.] Thanks! Jon Noring From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed May 25 10:13:26 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed May 25 10:13:45 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [for the graphics wizards] Cleaning up original Burton "Kama Sutra" page scans -- need advice/help Message-ID: <142.45fb68e6.2fc60c36@aol.com> jon said: > The paper is quite yellowed and darkened, > and many pages are quite faded. see a post from juliet on the d.p. forums about "gamma". -bowerbird From jon at noring.name Wed May 25 10:17:04 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Wed May 25 10:17:15 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [for the graphics wizards] Cleaning up original Burton "Kama Sutra" page scans -- need advice/help In-Reply-To: <142.45fb68e6.2fc60c36@aol.com> References: <142.45fb68e6.2fc60c36@aol.com> Message-ID: <1783929926.20050525111704@noring.name> Bowerbird noted: > jon said: >> The paper is quite yellowed and darkened, >> and many pages are quite faded. > see a post from juliet on the d.p. forums about "gamma". Thanks. That is one processing trick I've experimented with, and a good one at that. PSP9 has a gamma adjustment feature. (Of course, anyone who works in both the Mac and Windows milieus understands gamma.) PSP9 also has other pre-packaged image enhancement utilities. Jon From nwolcott at dsdial.net Wed May 25 20:34:24 2005 From: nwolcott at dsdial.net (N Wolcott) Date: Wed May 25 20:38:47 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [for the graphics wizards] Cleaning up original Burton"Kama Sutra" page scans -- need advice/help References: <507530706.20050525092954@noring.name> Message-ID: <006501c561a4$619df5c0$d69495ce@gw98> I have found scanning in 600 dpi color and then saving only the red image in Paintshop pro gets rid of most of the foxing and gives a very clean greyscale image. Much better than scanniing in greyscale to start with. Alternatively Capio from Kofax (available for 30 day trial) has lots of clean up options including removing background colors (foxing). Xp required though. The usual procedure is to use unsharp masking to sharpen the edges of the letters. Another approach for bitonal is to scan at 14 or 16 bit, and then chop off the background in Photoshop's histogram, after which youo can still convert to a 256 greyscale without loss of data. Then adjust the break point for the best bitonal image. Where have you posted your images or some sample ones? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Noring" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:29 AM Subject: [gutvol-d] [for the graphics wizards] Cleaning up original Burton"Kama Sutra" page scans -- need advice/help > [There are no doubt a few graphics wizards here who might have some > good advice to share on the following message I've been posting on > various forums and groups. Of course, let me know if PG would be > interested in archiving the cleaned up page scans. As noted below, > I've already started the process at DP to produce structured digital > text of this book, which then will be fed back to PG. Thanks!] > > > I'm now working to "clean up" the 182 page images from a recent scan > of a very rare and noteworthy public domain book. The cleaned-up scans > will be released to the public (such as given to the Internet Archive) > for free access. [For those interested, the book is the 1885 second > printing of the second edition of Sir Richard F. Burton's "Kama Sutra > of Vatsyayana".] > > The scans were done at 600 dpi (optical) 256-color greyscale (there's > no color in the book), to capture sufficient fine-detail to aid in the > cleanup process. Of course, the book was chopped (the binding was > falling apart anyway) and each page scanned on a flat-bed, so there's > no page distortion caused by trying to scan a bound book. There are no > illustrations -- it's all black and white text. > > I've already deskewed, cropped, centered and size-normalized all 182 > pages. (For those interested, links to two sample partially-cleaned > pages are given below.) > > In the cleanup process, I'd like to convert what I now have into > 600-dpi *bitonal* (black and white) with uniform and nicely readable > character density, removal of "pepper", cleanup of larger blotches, > etc. I recognize there will be some handwork required, particularly to > remove larger "pepper" and blotches, and repair a few characters, > etc., but of course want to minimize handwork. > > [Note that the purpose of the cleanup is for direct human-use of the > scans, and not solely for OCR purposes which doesn't require the > planned level of cleanup. For example, I plan to produce a DjVu > version for direct reading. For those who will probably ask, the raw > page scans have already been uploaded to Distributed Proofreaders for > conversion to structured digital text.] > > Unfortunately, what complicates the clean-up process is that the > original book is in poor and variable condition. The paper is quite > yellowed and darkened, and many pages are quite faded. Were the > original in mint condition with good, uniform ink-to-paper contrast, I > wouldn't be posting this request for advice. But the overall poor > quality and page-to-page variation is taxing my graphics abilities to > produce a clean finished product with reasonably readable and uniform > character density (at 600-dpi bitonal.) > > Here are two sample pages, each about 4.5 megs in size (2550x3900 > greyscale): > > http://www.openreader.org/kamasutra/page031.png (good condition) > http://www.openreader.org/kamasutra/page106.png (poor condition) > > I would assume that others have had similar needs and have come up > with various processing tricks and even built special tools to aid in > the clean-up process (e.g., how to auto-remove small "pepper", the > one to few pixel wide black spots on the white background?). I look > forward to your advice and even help if you are interested (I will > upload all the partially-cleaned images somewhere if you want to help > with the actual clean-up process -- the whole set of images totals 680 > megs.) > > [As a final note, I use Paint Shop Pro 9, but do not have Photoshop. > But since PSP9 is fairly powerful, I assume that many, if not all, > recommended Photoshop processes will map over to PSP9.] > > Thanks! > > Jon Noring > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From rvijay07 at myway.com Thu May 26 03:47:26 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Thu May 26 03:47:51 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! Message-ID: <20050526104726.9F2C639FB@mprdmxin.myway.com> This is mainly for Debian LINUX users. I just got festival and tried it yesterday. I didn't hear anything. Looks like additional packages are needed. Here are all the related needed packages: Text to speech software: apt-get install kdeaccessibility apt-get install sox apt-get install xsltproc Related Document: http://docs.kde.org/en/3.4/kdeacces...using-kapp.html Festival is also needed for this: Festival is a general multi-lingual speech synthesis system. It offers a full text to speech system with various APIs, as well an environment for development and research of speech synthesis techniques. It includes a Scheme-based command interpreter. Besides research into speech synthesis, festival is useful as a stand-alone speech synthesis program. It is capable of producing clearly understandable speech from text. festival festival-doc Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From richard at daijobu.co.uk Thu May 26 08:04:06 2005 From: richard at daijobu.co.uk (Richard Cohen) Date: Thu May 26 08:04:16 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! In-Reply-To: <20050526104726.9F2C639FB@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050526104726.9F2C639FB@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <4295E566.6060004@daijobu.co.uk> rvijay07 wrote: > This is mainly for Debian LINUX users. I just got festival and tried it yesterday. I didn't hear anything. Looks like additional packages are needed. If your sure that your sound system is working OK outside festival, you are probably missing one of the voices. $ apt-cache search festvox festvox-kallpc16k - American English male speaker for festival, 16khz festvox-kallpc8k - American English male speaker for festival, 8khz festvox-kdlpc16k - American English male speaker for festival, 16khz festvox-kdlpc8k - American English male speaker for festival, 8khz flite - A small run-time speech synthesis engine festvox-don - minimal British English male speaker for festival festvox-rablpc16k - British English male speaker for festival, 16khz festvox-rablpc8k - British English male speaker for festival, 8khz festvox-ellpc11k - Castilian Spanish male speaker for Festival $ echo "Festival is great" | festival --tts Richard From kth at srv.net Thu May 26 08:27:32 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu May 26 08:27:14 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! In-Reply-To: <20050526104726.9F2C639FB@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050526104726.9F2C639FB@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <4295EAE4.6020501@srv.net> rvijay07 wrote: >This is mainly for Debian LINUX users. I just got festival and tried it yesterday. I didn't hear anything. Looks like additional packages are needed. > >Here are all the related needed packages: > >Text to speech software: > >apt-get install kdeaccessibility > >apt-get install sox > >apt-get install xsltproc > >Related Document: >http://docs.kde.org/en/3.4/kdeacces...using-kapp.html > >Festival is also needed for this: > > fwiw: Fedora-Core and RedHat9 ship with festival rpms. Seems to work right out of the box. The fedora versions sound better than the rh9 on the systems I've tried, but that may be due to different hardware. From rvijay07 at myway.com Thu May 26 13:52:48 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Thu May 26 13:53:03 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! Message-ID: <20050526205248.616EF399C@mprdmxin.myway.com> Thanks for the response. I have all the files you mentioned and festival didn't work. I have to use a headphone and one of them works for other programs. However, I don't have a general volume control (Debian Linux). Volume control works thru xmms. Regards, Vijay --- On Thu 05/26, Richard Cohen < richard@daijobu.co.uk > wrote: From: Richard Cohen [mailto: richard@daijobu.co.uk] To: rvijay07@myway.com, gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:04:06 +0100 Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! rvijay07 wrote:
> This is mainly for Debian LINUX users. I just got festival and tried it yesterday. I didn't hear anything. Looks like additional packages are needed.

If your sure that your sound system is working OK outside festival, you
are probably missing one of the voices.

$ apt-cache search festvox

festvox-kallpc16k - American English male speaker for festival, 16khz
festvox-kallpc8k - American English male speaker for festival, 8khz
festvox-kdlpc16k - American English male speaker for festival, 16khz
festvox-kdlpc8k - American English male speaker for festival, 8khz
flite - A small run-time speech synthesis engine
festvox-don - minimal British English male speaker for festival
festvox-rablpc16k - British English male speaker for festival, 16khz
festvox-rablpc8k - British English male speaker for festival, 8khz
festvox-ellpc11k - Castilian Spanish male speaker for Festival

$ echo "Festival is great" | festival --tts

Richard
_______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From marcello at perathoner.de Fri May 27 01:19:45 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Fri May 27 01:20:06 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! In-Reply-To: <20050526205248.616EF399C@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050526205248.616EF399C@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <4296D821.8080402@perathoner.de> rvijay07 wrote: > Thanks for the response. I have all the files you mentioned and > festival didn't work. > > I have to use a headphone and one of them works for other programs. > However, I don't have a general volume control (Debian Linux). Volume > control works thru xmms. Install the gnome-media package. It contains gnome-volume-control . I'm not using KDE but there sure is a corresponding package there. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From rvijay07 at myway.com Fri May 27 03:16:23 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Fri May 27 03:16:46 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! Message-ID: <20050527101623.359A339F4@mprdmxin.myway.com> Thanks for this post. I just checked. There are two programs for sounds control. One is called audiomix and the other is called Kmix. Volume Control in both for speakers is set at 80% and above. The sound is enabled. So, I am lost for now as to the cause of the problem. Vijay --- On Fri 05/27, Marcello Perathoner < marcello@perathoner.de > wrote: From: Marcello Perathoner [mailto: marcello@perathoner.de] To: rvijay07@myway.com, gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:19:45 +0200 Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! rvijay07 wrote:

> Thanks for the response. I have all the files you mentioned and
> festival didn't work.
>
> I have to use a headphone and one of them works for other programs.
> However, I don't have a general volume control (Debian Linux). Volume
> control works thru xmms.

Install the gnome-media package. It contains gnome-volume-control .

I'm not using KDE but there sure is a corresponding package there.


--
Marcello Perathoner
webmaster@gutenberg.org

_______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From marcello at perathoner.de Fri May 27 03:30:24 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Fri May 27 03:30:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! In-Reply-To: <20050527101623.359A339F4@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050527101623.359A339F4@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <4296F6C0.8020201@perathoner.de> rvijay07 wrote: > Thanks for this post. I just checked. There are two programs for > sounds control. One is called audiomix and the other is called Kmix. > Volume Control in both for speakers is set at 80% and above. The > sound is enabled. So, I am lost for now as to the cause of the > problem. In my experience (setting up festival on my debian laptop) the difficult part is to get the sound system working. Try some mp3 files on your computer. Unless you can play them correctly its no use trying to install festival. You'll have to get your ALSA drivers working first. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From richard at daijobu.co.uk Fri May 27 04:37:22 2005 From: richard at daijobu.co.uk (Richard Cohen) Date: Fri May 27 04:37:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! In-Reply-To: <4296F6C0.8020201@perathoner.de> References: <20050527101623.359A339F4@mprdmxin.myway.com> <4296F6C0.8020201@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <42970672.8000500@daijobu.co.uk> Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Try some mp3 files on your computer. Unless you can play them correctly > its no use trying to install festival. You'll have to get your ALSA > drivers working first. > It seems as though the ALSA sound drivers are working, because XMMS works. But festival uses OSS. Vijay, do you have the alsa-oss emulation loaded? For example, on my machine, # lsmod | grep snd # lsmod | grep snd snd_pcm_oss 48288 0 snd_mixer_oss 17664 1 snd_pcm_oss snd_trident 39908 0 snd_ac97_codec 74040 1 snd_trident snd_pcm 83528 3 snd_pcm_oss,snd_trident,snd_ac97_codec snd_timer 21828 1 snd_pcm snd_page_alloc 7620 2 snd_trident,snd_pcm gameport 3648 1 snd_trident snd_util_mem 3328 1 snd_trident snd_mpu401_uart 6336 1 snd_trident snd_rawmidi 20576 1 snd_mpu401_uart snd_seq_device 6988 2 snd_trident,snd_rawmidi snd 48740 9 snd_pcm_oss,snd_mixer_oss,snd_trident,snd_ac97_codec,snd_pcm,snd_timer,snd_mpu401_uart,snd_rawmidi,snd_seq_device soundcore 7776 1 snd If I remove the OSS emulation, festival stops working ... # modprobe -r snd-pcm-oss $ echo "Festival is great" | festival --tts Linux: can't open /dev/dsp ... and if I put it back, it works # modprobe snd-pcm-oss $ echo "Festival is great, but this is getting a little off-topic" | festival --tts Richard. From rvijay07 at myway.com Fri May 27 04:47:39 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Fri May 27 04:48:04 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! Message-ID: <20050527114739.42E2B3A16@mprdmxin.myway.com> Here is the ouptput for this trial from my machine: root@box:/home/vijay# lsmod | grep snd root@box:/home/vijay# I seem to be missing this. How can I get it ? Thanks. Vijay --- On Fri 05/27, Richard Cohen < richard@daijobu.co.uk > wrote: From: Richard Cohen [mailto: richard@daijobu.co.uk] To: gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org Cc: rvijay07@myway.com Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:37:22 +0100 Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! Marcello Perathoner wrote:

> Try some mp3 files on your computer. Unless you can play them correctly
> its no use trying to install festival. You'll have to get your ALSA
> drivers working first.
>
It seems as though the ALSA sound drivers are working, because XMMS works.

But festival uses OSS. Vijay, do you have the alsa-oss emulation loaded?
For example, on my machine,

# lsmod | grep snd

# lsmod | grep snd
snd_pcm_oss 48288 0
snd_mixer_oss 17664 1 snd_pcm_oss
snd_trident 39908 0
snd_ac97_codec 74040 1 snd_trident
snd_pcm 83528 3 snd_pcm_oss,snd_trident,snd_ac97_codec
snd_timer 21828 1 snd_pcm
snd_page_alloc 7620 2 snd_trident,snd_pcm
gameport 3648 1 snd_trident
snd_util_mem 3328 1 snd_trident
snd_mpu401_uart 6336 1 snd_trident
snd_rawmidi 20576 1 snd_mpu401_uart
snd_seq_device 6988 2 snd_trident,snd_rawmidi
snd 48740 9
snd_pcm_oss,snd_mixer_oss,snd_trident,snd_ac97_codec,snd_pcm,snd_timer,snd_mpu401_uart,snd_rawmidi,snd_seq_device
soundcore 7776 1 snd

If I remove the OSS emulation, festival stops working ...

# modprobe -r snd-pcm-oss
$ echo "Festival is great" | festival --tts
Linux: can't open /dev/dsp

... and if I put it back, it works

# modprobe snd-pcm-oss
$ echo "Festival is great, but this is getting a little off-topic" |
festival --tts


Richard.


_______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From marcello at perathoner.de Fri May 27 05:38:13 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Fri May 27 05:38:18 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! In-Reply-To: <20050527114739.42E2B3A16@mprdmxin.myway.com> References: <20050527114739.42E2B3A16@mprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <429714B5.6010506@perathoner.de> rvijay07 wrote: > Here is the ouptput for this trial from my machine: > > root@box:/home/vijay# lsmod | grep snd > root@box:/home/vijay# > > I seem to be missing this. How can I get it ? Maybe a simple # modprobe soundcore will get it for you. Most probably you should really go over to the linux documentation project and read some howtos: http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/apps.html#MM Sadly, these seem to be pretty much outdated to me ... -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From kouhia at nic.funet.fi Fri May 27 10:33:07 2005 From: kouhia at nic.funet.fi (Juhana Sadeharju) Date: Fri May 27 10:33:18 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: [for the graphics wizards] Cleaning up original Burton "Kama Sutra" page scans -- need advice/help Message-ID: >From: Jon Noring > >for free access. [For those interested, the book is the 1885 second >printing of the second edition of Sir Richard F. Burton's "Kama Sutra >of Vatsyayana".] Please do *not* make them bitonal (black and white only)!!!!!!! You could also save time and do only the color manipulation (e.g., "gamma"). Could you place all the original scannings available for me? I could place the scannings available at our site. I also would like to process the images myself before you ruin them. Use of "gamma" most likely is not the way to improve the images. I will pick up the two example images and do experimentations. Takes a few days before I mail again with results. I have earlier done this kind of automatic level blancing in which I additionally flattened the curved pages (dark near the binding). >version for direct reading. For those who will probably ask, the raw >page scans have already been uploaded to Distributed Proofreaders for >conversion to structured digital text.] Are those original 8-bit images? How to download them from DP? What are the direct links to the pages? Juhana -- http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/linux-graphics-dev for developers of open source graphics software From jon at noring.name Fri May 27 11:32:28 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Fri May 27 11:32:42 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: [for the graphics wizards] Cleaning up original Burton "Kama Sutra" page scans -- need advice/help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <975054728.20050527123228@noring.name> Juhana wrote: >> for free access. [For those interested, the book is the 1885 second >> printing of the second edition of Sir Richard F. Burton's "Kama Sutra >> of Vatsyayana".] > Please do *not* make them bitonal (black and white only)!!!!!!! > You could also save time and do only the color manipulation (e.g., "gamma"). I do not intend to throw away the original page scan images, or the partially cleaned up greyscale "intermediary" images (which have been deskewed, fully cropped, and have been normalized onto a white background canvas.) > Could you place all the original scannings available for me? > I could place the scannings available at our site. > I also would like to process the images myself before you > ruin them. Again, I'm not throwing away anything. But I do understand your view that original page scans should be: 1) done at archival quality and 2) made available to the world. > Use of "gamma" most likely is not the way to improve the images. > I will pick up the two example images and do experimentations. > Takes a few days before I mail again with results. > I have earlier done this kind of automatic level blancing > in which I additionally flattened the curved pages (dark near > the binding). I agree with the "gamma". I've been spending a lot of time experimenting with the feedback provided by quite a few people on how to further process these images. A goal of mine is to produce a portable yet nicely readable DjVu version of the scans, and from past experiments going from 600 dpi greyscale to 600 dpi bitonal, and then putting that into DjVu, works out pretty good. The DjVu readers have their own "built-in" anti-aliasing to improve readability. But I'll experiment some more on the 2-bit versus 8-bit approach for DjVu. Regarding "curved" pages, I did mention before the book was "chopped", so each page is now separate and was scanned with minimum distortion. > Are those original 8-bit images? The originals were scanned at 600 dpi optical and greyscale. Some have mentioned I should have scanned at full 24-bit color since sometimes certain color channels (such as red and green) have lower noise and thus improve image processing/restoration. My experiments yesterday confirmed that the red channel was a little better, but doing various post-clean-up experiments showed that, at least for my copy of the Kama Sutra, the red channel versus grey-scale did not visibly improve the final results. Of course, there may be books where color channel separation could give remarkable improvements in post-processing, so, except for increased space requirements, it may be preferable to scan at 24-bit, even for black and white documents. > How to download them from DP? > What are the direct links to the pages? I'm not sure if I can give out the ftp user:pass at 'dpscans', since it was given to me in confidence. If you are interested, email Jon Niehof for possible access since they were dumped into his folder, 'jnik' (he's on travel, so has limited access the next week or two.) The raw scans total about 1.22 gigs, while the partially cleaned-up scans (still 600 dpi greyscale) take up about 680 megs. Jon Noring From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri May 27 12:53:36 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri May 27 12:53:51 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: [for the graphics wizards] Cleaning up original Burton "Kama Sutra" page scans -- need advice/help Message-ID: <1e8.3c051a40.2fc8d4c0@aol.com> jon said: > I'm not sure if I can give out the ftp user:pass at 'dpscans', > since it was given to me in confidence you have been telling us, often, that the internet archive will host scans. so why not make the scans available there? or put them up on a website of your own, such as the one for openreader. at your convenience, of course. :+) -bowerbird From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri May 27 13:05:15 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri May 27 13:05:31 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] jim's not answering the call Message-ID: <1c6.29855e45.2fc8d77b@aol.com> it appears jim isn't gonna tell me what it is that i don't know about what project gutenberg "does" here. i guess, like many people, he feels this listserve is a place to make attacks, but not to back them up... and that's too bad, because i am quite certain that i can help jim by writing software to help him "do" what he "does". so jim, why not be constructive and tell me what kind of software that might be? what do you need? what would you actually _use_?... while i have a very good idea myself, concerning what you might _need_, i have no confidence that you would actually _use_ any program i wrote, so i would be open to your suggestions... as it is, i'll be releasing a program called "wordplay" in a week or so that might prove to be useful to you, even though -- as its name implies -- entertainment is one of its goals too... -bowerbird From distributedmel at gmail.com Fri May 27 13:07:46 2005 From: distributedmel at gmail.com (Melissa Er-Raqabi) Date: Fri May 27 13:07:56 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] jim's not answering the call In-Reply-To: <1c6.29855e45.2fc8d77b@aol.com> References: <1c6.29855e45.2fc8d77b@aol.com> Message-ID: oh shut up. On 5/27/05, Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > it appears jim isn't gonna tell me > what it is that i don't know about > what project gutenberg "does" here. > > i guess, like many people, > he feels this listserve is > a place to make attacks, > but not to back them up... > > and that's too bad, because > i am quite certain that i can > help jim by writing software > to help him "do" what he "does". > > so jim, why not be constructive > and tell me what kind of software > that might be? what do you need? > what would you actually _use_?... > > while i have a very good idea myself, > concerning what you might _need_, > i have no confidence that you would > actually _use_ any program i wrote, > so i would be open to your suggestions... > > as it is, i'll be releasing a program > called "wordplay" in a week or so > that might prove to be useful to you, > even though -- as its name implies -- > entertainment is one of its goals too... > > -bowerbird > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri May 27 13:10:26 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri May 27 13:10:40 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] jim's not answering the call Message-ID: <42.6a08a8c9.2fc8d8b2@aol.com> melissa said: > oh shut up. thanks, melissa! you have a nice weekend too! :+) -bowerbird From rvijay07 at myway.com Fri May 27 14:10:32 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Fri May 27 14:10:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! Message-ID: <20050527211032.4DF5E397A@mprdmxin.myway.com> root@box:/home/vijay# /bin/lsmod Module Size Used by Not tainted nls_iso8859-1 2844 0 (autoclean) ppp_deflate 2936 0 (autoclean) zlib_deflate 17304 0 (autoclean) [ppp_deflate] bsd_comp 3960 0 (autoclean) ppp_async 7232 1 (autoclean) ppp_generic 22816 3 (autoclean) [ppp_deflate bsd_comp ppp_async] slhc 4560 0 (autoclean) [ppp_generic] parport_pc 25128 1 (autoclean) lp 7460 1 parport 22496 1 [parport_pc lp] autofs4 8756 1 af_packet 13544 0 agpgart 42724 0 (unused) awe_wave 155744 0 (unused) sb 7796 1 sb_lib 33518 0 [sb] uart401 6052 0 [sb_lib] sound 55244 1 [awe_wave sb_lib uart401] soundcore 3428 6 [sb_lib sound] 8139too 13768 0 mii 2240 0 [8139too] de4x5 39488 0 crc32 2816 0 [8139too de4x5] serial 52068 2 ataraid 6404 0 (unused) ieee1394 183300 0 pcmcia_core 39840 0 apm 9736 2 ide-scsi 9040 0 rtc 7004 0 (autoclean) ext3 64388 1 (autoclean) jbd 46804 1 (autoclean) [ext3] root@box:/home/vijay# and root@box:/home/vijay# modprobe soundcore root@box:/home/vijay# --- On Fri 05/27, Richard Cohen < richard@daijobu.co.uk > wrote: From: Richard Cohen [mailto: richard@daijobu.co.uk] To: rvijay07@myway.com Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:04:29 +0100 Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! OK, try

# /bin/lsmod
_______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From servalan at ar.com.au Sun May 29 03:21:19 2005 From: servalan at ar.com.au (Pauline) Date: Sun May 29 03:22:09 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: [for the graphics wizards] Cleaning up original Burton "Kama Sutra" page scans -- need advice/help In-Reply-To: <975054728.20050527123228@noring.name> References: <975054728.20050527123228@noring.name> Message-ID: <4299979F.2010700@ar.com.au> Jon Noring wrote: > I'm not sure if I can give out the ftp user:pass at 'dpscans', since > it was given to me in confidence. If you are interested, email Jon > Niehof for possible access since they were > dumped into his folder, 'jnik' (he's on travel, so has limited access > the next week or two.) Please don't give out the password. The FTP area is to support the loading of image & text files for DP projects only. > The raw scans total about 1.22 gigs, while the partially cleaned-up > scans (still 600 dpi greyscale) take up about 680 megs. I can make the files available on the DP test server via HTTP if someone lets me know what is required. It would be appreciated if such requests are sent to the DP site admins in future. At the moment we don't have the disk space to support files which aren't being loaded into DP projects. Thanks, P -- Help digitise public domain books: Distributed Proofreaders: http://www.pgdp.net "Preserving history one page at a time." Set free dead-tree books: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/servalan From jon at noring.name Sun May 29 06:36:54 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Sun May 29 06:37:03 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: [for the graphics wizards] Cleaning up original Burton "Kama Sutra" page scans -- need advice/help In-Reply-To: <4299979F.2010700@ar.com.au> References: <975054728.20050527123228@noring.name> <4299979F.2010700@ar.com.au> Message-ID: <1457405179.20050529073654@noring.name> Pauline wrote: > Jon Noring wrote: >> I'm not sure if I can give out the ftp user:pass at 'dpscans', since >> it was given to me in confidence. If you are interested, email Jon >> Niehof for possible access since they were >> dumped into his folder, 'jnik' (he's on travel, so has limited access >> the next week or two.) > Please don't give out the password. The FTP area is to support the > loading of image & text files for DP projects only. Well, I didn't. I surmised the user:pass was not intended for public use since a complete search of the pgdp.net site did not bring it up. It just said that the ftp space was for uploading projects, as you noted, and that those wishing to submit stuff need to be given the user:pass from the project leader. >> The raw scans total about 1.22 gigs, while the partially cleaned-up >> scans (still 600 dpi greyscale) take up about 680 megs. > I can make the files available on the DP test server via HTTP if someone > lets me know what is required. It would be appreciated if such requests > are sent to the DP site admins in future. At the moment we don't have > the disk space to support files which aren't being loaded into DP projects. I'm in the process, as is clear from my various posts on this topic, to produce a "high-quality" and portable cleaned up version in DjVu for general direct reading by the public (a "reader", and not just fodder for OCR.) Also, the final cleaned-up bitonal images (used to produce the DjVu version) will be made available, possibly along with the raw greyscale scans. As Bowerbird requested, they will be uploaded to archive.org, and possibly made available via a ftp site associated with one of my domains (and administered by James Linden). Patience. It's just one book out of several million public domain books. But it certainly is one of the more interesting public domain books, and deserves some effort to clean up the scans for direct use. Jon Noring From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sun May 29 15:42:08 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sun May 29 15:42:09 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for Consideration. In-Reply-To: <20050518123522.077A92FA1C@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20050518123522.077A92FA1C@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <20050529224208.GC8060@pglaf.org> On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 07:35:22AM -0500, Joshua Hutchinson wrote: > What is our official stance on stuff like this? There are some pretty useful documents out there that we could probably add to the collection under the circumstances Marcello describes. > > Josh We've carried ESR's Jargon File for a long time. Additional writings along the lines mentioned below are welcome, but (a) we still ask permission of the author; and (b) they need to be reformatted to meet our guidelines; and (c) there is no guarantee that "someone" will be able to keep our version up to date with the latest available version. I'm generally opposed to technical manuals, because they become outdated so quickly. We have one or two of these, as experiments. Maybe someone will want to start a site (PG affiliate or not) that is devoted to preservation of such materials, sort of like the Internet Archive's effort to preserve abandoned software. Definitely worthwhile, but not something PG can do too well today. -- Greg (sorry for my late response...) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marcello Perathoner" > To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" > Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for Consideration. > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:11:28 +0200 > > > > > Jonathan Ingram wrote: > > > > > Sadly the overly long length of modern copyright terms mean that we won't > > > see a > > > large influx of public domain computer programming material for a while. > > > > Many FSF books are copylefted. One I should definitely like to see in the > > collection is: > > > > Free Software Free Society > > > > selected essays of > > > > Richard M. Stallman > > > > > > My paper copy says: > > > > "Permission is granted to make and distribute verbatim copies of this book > > provided the copyright notice and this notice are preserved on all copies." > > > > > > -- Marcello Perathoner > > webmaster@gutenberg.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gutvol-d mailing list > > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From davedoty at hotmail.com Sun May 29 15:45:50 2005 From: davedoty at hotmail.com (Dave Doty) Date: Sun May 29 15:46:02 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for Consideration. In-Reply-To: <20050529224208.GC8060@pglaf.org> Message-ID: >From: Greg Newby >I'm generally opposed to technical manuals, because they become >outdated so quickly. We have one or two of these, as experiments. >Maybe someone will want to start a site (PG affiliate or not) that is >devoted to preservation of such materials If the Wikipedia people haven't started up a sister project for this, it seems perfect for them. Dave Doty From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sun May 29 15:49:33 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sun May 29 15:49:34 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] newsletter editors In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050517222418.025d9e20@baechler.net> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050517001045.02b7e6d0@baechler.net> <20050516005936.0BDA1EDFA9@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> <1433895468.20050515192701@noring.name> <42885AF5.E299CDA2@ibiblio.org> <20050516163307.GD1372@pglaf.org> <4288CE29.9020304@perathoner.de> <20050516175420.GA5471@pglaf.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20050517001045.02b7e6d0@baechler.net> <5.2.0.9.0.20050517222418.025d9e20@baechler.net> Message-ID: <20050529224933.GD8060@pglaf.org> On Tue, May 17, 2005 at 10:40:25PM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote: > Hi. So, should I just put something together as a draft and post it here > or send it to someone in particular? The problem I had last time is that I > had someone else who also wanted to do the newsletter asking me what to Hi, Tony. Did you get a response from this? The short answer: 1. Email Michael to get the advance newsletter copies. Then, send any suggested changes or fixes. 2. If you have additional content, like reviews or anything else, send it to Michael. Yes, it would be nice for Michael to *not* be the main newsletter editor. To move towards that, the method he and I support is to have a transitional "parallel" newsletter... perhaps the same as the current newsletter, or perhaps substantially different. If you, or a group of people, are able to consistently produce a useful newsletter then you'll find that your newsletter is "the" newsletter. This is how we've handled such transitions in the past. Unfortunately, past newsletter editors have eventually gone onto different activities, and the job keeps falling back onto Michael (or sometimes, briefly, to me). This is why we don't just "turn over" the newsletter to people who express an interest. Instead, we try to have a gradual try-out period. I'm very sorry to hear that you didn't get the guidance or feedback or thanks you needed to be effective. I know you've been looking at the newsletter for months now, and are interested in stepping up to a higher level of activity. If all else fails, I can enable you to send your newsletter directly -- just get in touch with me directly. But to start, I would like to try what I've outlined above. If you're having trouble getting a response from Michael, include !@! in the start of the Subject line, and re-send. You can also send to me, and I'll bother him on your behalf :-) How does this sound? Best, -- Greg > do. I had to explain that I have no control over the PG lists and in fact > really had no more idea of what to do than they did. George was surprised > that I never got replies back in regards to questions I had asked. I think > that a team effort is probably best since I do not want to take over MH's > portion of the newsletter. The part I would do would probably not be very > large and would hopefully mostly consist of features sent in by others. I > would act as an editor, not a writer. As I understand it, we are talking > about editors here, and an editor simply fixes errors in text written by > others. I might write a paragraph editorial, but I am not one for > verbosity in my writing. > > The only other difficulty I could see is that I would probably prefer to > send my portion out on Tuesday or Wednesday nights as opposed to Wednesday > at noon. This means that I would have to receive submissions by Tuesday > afternoon so I could fix them in time. That would be subject to change of > course and would depend on how much material I would get. If I have a > regular group of submitters such as someone to report on DP, someone to > review a book or two and someone to comment on a particularly interesting > book posted in the last week, I would definitely set my deadline for each > week to Tuesday morning. If I only have something trickle in on an > irregular basis, this could be extended to Tuesday at midnight or early > Wednesday morning. I realize that posting the newsletter to the lists on > this time schedule doesn't comply with the PG policy of posting all parts > by noon on Wednesday, but the new books part is produced automatically now > and I would not really be dealing with that at all, so I don't think my > portion is as time-sensitive. > > If this is something that Michael and Greg would like to see me go further > on, I will try to put something together. I unfortunately can't manage the > newsletter web archives at this time, and again I would not want to do part > one or whatever part becomes MH's portion. > > At 09:58 AM 5/17/2005 -0700, you wrote: > > >We don't have a set of rules for how an editor should write newsletters, > >each editor, including Alice, George, Greg, and Michael, has simply done > >the newsletters as they think best. You are encouraged to write in any > >manner you like, and to keep writing even when there are others writing, > >no need for only one way of doing things. > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Mon May 30 00:19:33 2005 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Mon May 30 00:20:05 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for Consideration. In-Reply-To: <20050529224208.GC8060@pglaf.org> References: <20050518123522.077A92FA1C@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> <20050529224208.GC8060@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <12fl9151u056ij70tq1vmds7tlcjhs88nl@4ax.com> On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:42:08 -0700, Greg Newby wrote: | On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 07:35:22AM -0500, Joshua Hutchinson wrote: | I'm generally opposed to technical manuals, because they become | outdated so quickly. But, speaking as an ex-engineer, on the other hand the ways of doing things and/or making things rapidly becomes lost when people stop doing whatever the manual is about. This loss is significant, and would be reduced if the manuals were preserved as e-text. Surely PG is about preserving things which might be lost, among other things. If Fred Dibnah's "Made in Britain" http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/programmes/dibnah/ ever makes it to the USA watch it. He was exploring the almost lost skills/arts of making a steam Traction Engine. Fred Dibnah has a cult following in the UK. -- Dave Fawthrop Beware of anyone posting X-No-Archive yes, they must have something to hide or something to be ashamed of. Your task, should you wish to accept it, is to determine *what*. From tb at baechler.net Mon May 30 02:13:39 2005 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Mon May 30 02:12:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Technical Collection for Consideration. In-Reply-To: <20050529224208.GC8060@pglaf.org> References: <20050518123522.077A92FA1C@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> <20050518123522.077A92FA1C@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050530021156.038328d0@bisinc.us> Hi. One site already doing this to a point is listed below. You might want to look at it. The site owner might be willing to start a separate section for technical manuals since they fit generally into the mission of the site. This of course is not related at all to PG. http://textfiles.com/ At 03:42 PM 5/29/2005 -0700, you wrote: >Maybe someone will want to start a site (PG affiliate or not) that is >devoted to preservation of such materials, sort of like the >Internet Archive's effort to preserve abandoned software. Definitely >worthwhile, but not something PG can do too well today. From rvijay07 at myway.com Mon May 30 08:16:03 2005 From: rvijay07 at myway.com (rvijay07) Date: Mon May 30 08:16:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Listening to EBooks in Text Format !!! Message-ID: <20050530151603.8770C39B8@mprdmxin.myway.com> All related documents that need to be read in this regard: http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/apps.html#MM Festival Speech Synthesis System - Table of Contents http://www.cstr.ed.ac.uk/projects/festival/manual/ festival man page http://linuxcommand.org/man_pages/festival1.html "Festival is very quiet. How do I make it louder?" http://www.cstr.ed.ac.uk/cgi-bin/cs...val/volume.html Sharing this here for future general reference of everyone interested in this topic. Regards, Vijay _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com From gbnewby at pglaf.org Tue May 31 00:25:55 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Tue May 31 00:25:59 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Help sought for text versions of Friulan 'Dante' Message-ID: <20050531072555.GA20636@pglaf.org> Anyone feel like wrestling with file conversion? I've just put this file for download: http://pglaf.org/~gbnewby/dante.zip It contains three RTF files, plus a JPG image. I think only dante-inferno is an intact file, though. The task is to create a plain text file in ISO-8859-1 encoding, but to properly identify and save the footnotes (as endnotes). I've been messing with this in MS Word (for Mac) and a few OpenOffice variations, and just can't get it to save right. It might be that it just needs some tender loving hand-editing to create a plain text version. Please let me (& the list) know if you might be able to spend some time with this. I think the footnotes in the other two volumes (purgatorio & paradiso) are missing, and am asking the author for them. Thanks! Greg From servalan at ar.com.au Tue May 31 01:14:33 2005 From: servalan at ar.com.au (Pauline) Date: Tue May 31 01:15:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] DP Site downtime - 31st May 10pm EST In-Reply-To: <20050531072555.GA20636@pglaf.org> References: <20050531072555.GA20636@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <429C1CE9.7030206@ar.com.au> Hi All, DP will be down for a site upgrade from 10pm EST 31st May. More info here: http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15423 Thanks in advance for your patience & we'll be back with shiny new DP code soon, P -- Help digitise public domain books: Distributed Proofreaders: http://www.pgdp.net "Preserving history one page at a time." Set free dead-tree books: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/servalan From ajhaines at shaw.ca Tue May 31 09:34:15 2005 From: ajhaines at shaw.ca (Al Haines (shaw)) Date: Tue May 31 09:34:40 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Help sought for text versions of Friulan 'Dante' References: <20050531072555.GA20636@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <000301c565fe$95b6c950$6401a8c0@ahainesp2600> Greg, when you say "just can't get it to save right", what do you mean? I just tried saving the Inferno file, using MS Word 2002 (Word XP), to a text file, using the default Windows encoding option, and came up with what *appeared* to be a fairly clean text file. A couple of spot checks, viewing the text file with Notepad, showed that the accents were intact. All the footnotes (228 of them, numbered sequentially) appear at the end of the text file. The footnote markers throughout the text are just the numbers - no surrounding square bracket pairs, e.g. [1], to set them off as footnotes. I'm assuming that the line breaks that were in the original file are to be preserved in the text file, especially the 3-line groups (verses?) like those in "Cjant Prin". BTW - what language are these files in? Al ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Newby" To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 12:25 AM Subject: [gutvol-d] Help sought for text versions of Friulan 'Dante' > Anyone feel like wrestling with file conversion? > I've just put this file for download: > http://pglaf.org/~gbnewby/dante.zip > > It contains three RTF files, plus a JPG image. I think > only dante-inferno is an intact file, though. > > The task is to create a plain text file in ISO-8859-1 > encoding, but to properly identify and save the footnotes > (as endnotes). > > I've been messing with this in MS Word (for Mac) and > a few OpenOffice variations, and just can't get it to > save right. It might be that it just needs some tender > loving hand-editing to create a plain text version. > > Please let me (& the list) know if you might be able to > spend some time with this. > > I think the footnotes in the other two volumes (purgatorio > & paradiso) are missing, and am asking the author for them. > > Thanks! Greg > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From gbnewby at pglaf.org Tue May 31 10:38:32 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Tue May 31 10:38:35 2005 Subject: [pgww] Re: [gutvol-d] Help sought for text versions of Friulan 'Dante' In-Reply-To: <000301c565fe$95b6c950$6401a8c0@ahainesp2600> References: <20050531072555.GA20636@pglaf.org> <000301c565fe$95b6c950$6401a8c0@ahainesp2600> Message-ID: <20050531173832.GA1126@pglaf.org> On Tue, May 31, 2005 at 09:34:15AM -0700, Al Haines (shaw) wrote: > Greg, when you say "just can't get it to save right", what do you mean? > > I just tried saving the Inferno file, using MS Word 2002 (Word XP), to a > text file, using the default Windows encoding option, and came up with what > *appeared* to be a fairly clean text file. A couple of spot checks, > viewing the text file with Notepad, showed that the accents were intact. Weird. I guess maybe this is a shortcoming of Word on the Mac? The footnotes definitely did not save, for me. I was thinking of trying it on a PC, so probably should have, first. > All the footnotes (228 of them, numbered sequentially) appear at the end of > the text file. The footnote markers throughout the text are just the > numbers - no surrounding square bracket pairs, e.g. [1], to set them off as > footnotes. So this will take some by-hand editing to get the footnotes more usable (i.e., something like: [102] with a space before and after). But that's not too bad...there are a couple of hundred. Are you volunteering ??? :) > I'm assuming that the line breaks that were in the original file are to be > preserved in the text file, especially the 3-line groups (verses?) like > those in "Cjant Prin". There are some extra line breaks between sections, but otherwise yes: the breaks in the cantos should stay as-is. (At least, I think so: I did not work through the whole file looking for anomalies.) > BTW - what language are these files in? Friulan (our first in that language!). It's a language spoken by natives of northern Italy and elsewhere, and you can find some pretty good info about it on the Internet. -- Greg > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Greg Newby" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 12:25 AM > Subject: [gutvol-d] Help sought for text versions of Friulan 'Dante' > > > >Anyone feel like wrestling with file conversion? > >I've just put this file for download: > >http://pglaf.org/~gbnewby/dante.zip > > > >It contains three RTF files, plus a JPG image. I think > >only dante-inferno is an intact file, though. > > > >The task is to create a plain text file in ISO-8859-1 > >encoding, but to properly identify and save the footnotes > >(as endnotes). > > > >I've been messing with this in MS Word (for Mac) and > >a few OpenOffice variations, and just can't get it to > >save right. It might be that it just needs some tender > >loving hand-editing to create a plain text version. > > > >Please let me (& the list) know if you might be able to > >spend some time with this. > > > >I think the footnotes in the other two volumes (purgatorio > >& paradiso) are missing, and am asking the author for them. > > > >Thanks! Greg > >_______________________________________________ > >gutvol-d mailing list > >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > > From ajhaines at shaw.ca Tue May 31 11:10:52 2005 From: ajhaines at shaw.ca (Al Haines (shaw)) Date: Tue May 31 11:11:54 2005 Subject: [pgww] Re: [gutvol-d] Help sought for text versions of Friulan'Dante' References: <20050531072555.GA20636@pglaf.org> <000301c565fe$95b6c950$6401a8c0@ahainesp2600> <20050531173832.GA1126@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <000301c5660c$154d5f00$6401a8c0@ahainesp2600> Sure, I'll take it on. 228 footnotes isn't bad - I just finished a book (#15931) that had about twice that. I'll work on the Inferno file only, for the time being, since you said the other two are currently incomplete. When I've finished it, I'll zip it and send it directly to you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Newby" To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" Cc: "Project Gutenberg Whitewashers" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [pgww] Re: [gutvol-d] Help sought for text versions of Friulan'Dante' > On Tue, May 31, 2005 at 09:34:15AM -0700, Al Haines (shaw) wrote: >> Greg, when you say "just can't get it to save right", what do you mean? >> >> I just tried saving the Inferno file, using MS Word 2002 (Word XP), to a >> text file, using the default Windows encoding option, and came up with >> what >> *appeared* to be a fairly clean text file. A couple of spot checks, >> viewing the text file with Notepad, showed that the accents were intact. > > Weird. I guess maybe this is a shortcoming of Word on the Mac? The > footnotes definitely did not save, for me. I was thinking of trying it > on a PC, so probably should have, first. > >> All the footnotes (228 of them, numbered sequentially) appear at the end >> of >> the text file. The footnote markers throughout the text are just the >> numbers - no surrounding square bracket pairs, e.g. [1], to set them off >> as >> footnotes. > > So this will take some by-hand editing to get the footnotes > more usable (i.e., something like: [102] with a space before and > after). But that's not too bad...there are a couple of hundred. > Are you volunteering ??? :) > >> I'm assuming that the line breaks that were in the original file are to >> be >> preserved in the text file, especially the 3-line groups (verses?) like >> those in "Cjant Prin". > > There are some extra line breaks between sections, but otherwise > yes: the breaks in the cantos should stay as-is. (At least, I think > so: I did not work through the whole file looking for anomalies.) > >> BTW - what language are these files in? > > Friulan (our first in that language!). It's a language spoken by > natives of northern Italy and elsewhere, and you can find some pretty > good info about it on the Internet. > -- Greg > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Greg Newby" >> To: >> Cc: >> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 12:25 AM >> Subject: [gutvol-d] Help sought for text versions of Friulan 'Dante' >> >> >> >Anyone feel like wrestling with file conversion? >> >I've just put this file for download: >> >http://pglaf.org/~gbnewby/dante.zip >> > >> >It contains three RTF files, plus a JPG image. I think >> >only dante-inferno is an intact file, though. >> > >> >The task is to create a plain text file in ISO-8859-1 >> >encoding, but to properly identify and save the footnotes >> >(as endnotes). >> > >> >I've been messing with this in MS Word (for Mac) and >> >a few OpenOffice variations, and just can't get it to >> >save right. It might be that it just needs some tender >> >loving hand-editing to create a plain text version. >> > >> >Please let me (& the list) know if you might be able to >> >spend some time with this. >> > >> >I think the footnotes in the other two volumes (purgatorio >> >& paradiso) are missing, and am asking the author for them. >> > >> >Thanks! Greg >> >_______________________________________________ >> >gutvol-d mailing list >> >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >> >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From JBuck814366460 at aol.com Tue May 31 11:49:41 2005 From: JBuck814366460 at aol.com (Jared Buck) Date: Tue May 31 11:50:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Help sought for text versions of Friulan 'Dante' In-Reply-To: <20050531072555.GA20636@pglaf.org> References: <20050531072555.GA20636@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <1117565381.27187.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi Greg - I might be able to help you out with making a plain-text version. Since I'm on Linux it's not going to be a problem, I can convert it back to DOS text format with unix2dos after I'm done. It can give me something to do while DP's down when it undergoes its changeover tonight. Let me know if you'd like me to take care of it for you. Jared On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 00:25 -0700, Greg Newby wrote: > Anyone feel like wrestling with file conversion? > I've just put this file for download: > http://pglaf.org/~gbnewby/dante.zip > > It contains three RTF files, plus a JPG image. I think > only dante-inferno is an intact file, though. > > The task is to create a plain text file in ISO-8859-1 > encoding, but to properly identify and save the footnotes > (as endnotes). > > I've been messing with this in MS Word (for Mac) and > a few OpenOffice variations, and just can't get it to > save right. It might be that it just needs some tender > loving hand-editing to create a plain text version. > > Please let me (& the list) know if you might be able to > spend some time with this. > > I think the footnotes in the other two volumes (purgatorio > & paradiso) are missing, and am asking the author for them. > > Thanks! Greg > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From gbnewby at pglaf.org Tue May 31 11:59:57 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Tue May 31 11:59:59 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Help sought for text versions of Friulan 'Dante' In-Reply-To: <1117565381.27187.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050531072555.GA20636@pglaf.org> <1117565381.27187.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050531185957.GA3284@pglaf.org> On Tue, May 31, 2005 at 11:49:41AM -0700, Jared Buck wrote: > Hi Greg - > > I might be able to help you out with making a plain-text version. Since > I'm on Linux it's not going to be a problem, I can convert it back to > DOS text format with unix2dos after I'm done. > > It can give me something to do while DP's down when it undergoes its > changeover tonight. > > Let me know if you'd like me to take care of it for you. > > Jared Thanks for this offer, Jared. It sounds like Al Haines has already had some luck, and is working on getting the footnotes formatted. But if you want to do some by-hand editing tonight, I have another few files "in progress" -- email me off-list and I'll send you one! -- Greg > On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 00:25 -0700, Greg Newby wrote: > > Anyone feel like wrestling with file conversion? > > I've just put this file for download: > > http://pglaf.org/~gbnewby/dante.zip > > > > It contains three RTF files, plus a JPG image. I think > > only dante-inferno is an intact file, though. > > > > The task is to create a plain text file in ISO-8859-1 > > encoding, but to properly identify and save the footnotes > > (as endnotes). > > > > I've been messing with this in MS Word (for Mac) and > > a few OpenOffice variations, and just can't get it to > > save right. It might be that it just needs some tender > > loving hand-editing to create a plain text version. > > > > Please let me (& the list) know if you might be able to > > spend some time with this. > > > > I think the footnotes in the other two volumes (purgatorio > > & paradiso) are missing, and am asking the author for them. > > > > Thanks! Greg > > _______________________________________________ > > gutvol-d mailing list > > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From ke at gnu.franken.de Tue May 31 18:23:49 2005 From: ke at gnu.franken.de (Karl Eichwalder) Date: Tue May 31 18:24:17 2005 Subject: [pgww] Re: [gutvol-d] Help sought for text versions of Friulan 'Dante' In-Reply-To: <20050531173832.GA1126@pglaf.org> (Greg Newby's message of "Tue, 31 May 2005 10:38:32 -0700") References: <20050531072555.GA20636@pglaf.org> <000301c565fe$95b6c950$6401a8c0@ahainesp2600> <20050531173832.GA1126@pglaf.org> Message-ID: Greg Newby writes: >> All the footnotes (228 of them, numbered sequentially) appear at the end of >> the text file. The footnote markers throughout the text are just the >> numbers - no surrounding square bracket pairs, e.g. [1], to set them off as >> footnotes. > > So this will take some by-hand editing to get the footnotes > more usable (i.e., something like: [102] with a space before and > after). But that's not too bad...there are a couple of hundred. > Are you volunteering ??? :) You can use Emacs: M-x query-replace-regexp RET \([[:digit:]]+\) RET [\1] RET And then confirm every occurence with 'y'. -- http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/ | ,__o | _-\_<, | (*)/'(*) Key fingerprint = F138 B28F B7ED E0AC 1AB4 AA7F C90A 35C3 E9D0 5D1C