From sly at victoria.tc.ca Thu Sep 1 00:33:02 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Thu Sep 1 00:33:22 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Original publication dates? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mark. Your project sounds fascinating. I hope it does work out well. The issue of "original publication dates" is not always straight-forward. There are many of the older texts in PG which are not intended to be representative of any particular paper edition. And what about a 1950's edition of material from the 1700's with new editorial commentary? (Yes, we do have material like that in PG.) Also, there is the issue of when a work was written vs. when it was published. In many cases, these two dates will be close, but in some cases, they can be decades apart. For your purposes, we could perhaps try for a concept of "original publication date of basic material", but that would have a great reliance on individual judgement, and we would undoubedly get email from people expressing discontent with how "we've got it wrong". Andrew On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Mark Davies wrote: > Sorry if this is a FAQ, or a variation on a FAQ. > > Are there any Project Gutenberg databases that show the *original* > publication dates (e.g. 1875, 1916) for all or most of the texts? I've > created a database (current as of a few months ago) that has info on > each book -- author, title, LC classification, etc --- but nowhere in > the metadata for the texts could I find the original publication date. > > Unless I can find such a database, I'm going to get a research assistant > to find this info for all ([original] English language) texts in the > collection, or else write a script to automate the process. > > FWIW, I'm planning on using the Gutenberg texts as part of a 100 million > word corpus of texts from English (British and US) from the 1800s-1900s, > similar to what I've done for the 100 million word British National > Corpus (http://view.byu.edu) and the 100 million word Corpus del Espanol > (www.corpusdelespanol.org). > > Thanks in advance for any info you might have. > > Mark Davies > > ================================================= > > Mark Davies > Assoc. Prof., Linguistics > Brigham Young University > (phone) 801-422-9168 / (fax) 801-422-0906 > > http://davies-linguistics.byu.edu > > ** Corpus design and use // Linguistic databases ** > ** Historical linguistics // Language variation ** > ** English, Spanish, and Portuguese ** > > ================================================= > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > From sly at victoria.tc.ca Thu Sep 1 01:02:22 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Thu Sep 1 01:02:56 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Russian author names Message-ID: Are there any volunteers out there who can read Russian? I've been adding names of Russian authors in cyrillic characters to the PG online database. You can see them part way down the page, here: http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/other I have found information online which I belive may have the full name of the writer "Semyonov, S. T." but without understanding the Russian, I cannot be sure. If anyone is aware of Russian authors represented in PG who I have missed, I'd appreciate hearing about it. Thanks, Andrew From a at avenarius.sk Thu Sep 1 01:24:04 2005 From: a at avenarius.sk (a@avenarius.sk) Date: Thu Sep 1 01:29:26 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Russian author names In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <554213763.20050901102404@avenarius.sk> On Thursday, 1st September 2005 at 01:02:22 (GMT -0700), which was 10:02 a.m. in Bratislava, Slovakia, Andrew Sly wrote: > Are there any volunteers out there who can read Russian? Yes. I'm Slovak but I had a Russian grandfather. > I've been adding names of Russian authors in cyrillic > characters to the PG online database. > You can see them part way down the page, here: > http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/other Nice! > I have found information online which I belive may > have the full name of the writer "Semyonov, S. T." > but without understanding the Russian, I cannot be sure. Everything appears to be alright on the page with Semyonov's name. A little resource on my webpage that might perhaps prove useful now and then: http://avenarius.sk/alphabet-ru.htm -- Yours, Alex. www.avenarius.sk [processed by "The Bat!", Version 2.12.00] From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Sep 1 17:16:49 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu Sep 1 17:17:12 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] banana-cream In-Reply-To: <1da.4356e517.30478b45@aol.com> References: <1da.4356e517.30478b45@aol.com> Message-ID: <431799F1.5090508@perathoner.de> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: >> I request a copy of your program for linux. > > it doesn't exist for linux. only for mac and windows. And it doesn't exist for PalmOS, PocketPC and Symbian. Your reader is a very inferior solution to XML, which can generate formats you can read on all known platforms. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Sep 2 01:20:25 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri Sep 2 01:20:56 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] banana-cream Message-ID: <1a4.3e263524.30496549@aol.com> marcello said: > Your reader is a very inferior solution to XML, > which can generate formats you can > read on all known platforms. then why don't you get to work on your precious x.m.l.? -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050902/13e99cff/attachment.html From shimmin at uiuc.edu Fri Sep 2 07:24:43 2005 From: shimmin at uiuc.edu (Robert Shimmin) Date: Fri Sep 2 07:36:51 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG-TEI: feature request. In-Reply-To: References: <908745031.20050824153847@noring.name> <182290311.20050825095043@noring.name> Message-ID: <431860AB.6000508@uiuc.edu> I'm looking at Version 0.3 of PG-TEI. If that is no longer the current version, apologies. The following are highlighting modes (inline 'rend' values) that I've seen employed with some frequency in public domain printed materials, that are not presently supported by PG-TEI. roman (when the 'default' typeface is not roman) blackletter red-ink Thanks, -- RS From joshua at hutchinson.net Fri Sep 2 07:46:48 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Fri Sep 2 07:46:51 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG-TEI: feature request. Message-ID: <20050902144648.1111E109971@ws6-4.us4.outblaze.com> There is a rend="font-family(x)" that will work for at least some of that. I know it would work for the roman, I think it would work for blackletter (that is a font change right?). I'm not sure what red-ink means, so I don't know if that one would be covered. (NOTE: This rend is mentioned in section 6.1 in the guideline file) Give me a little better explanation of red-ink (and maybe a link to an example so that I can see what you mean too) and I'll try to see if we have anything currently that would work. Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Shimmin" > > I'm looking at Version 0.3 of PG-TEI. If that is no longer the current > version, apologies. The following are highlighting modes (inline 'rend' > values) that I've seen employed with some frequency in public domain printed > materials, that are not presently supported by PG-TEI. > > roman (when the 'default' typeface is not roman) > blackletter > red-ink > > Thanks, > -- RS > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From shimmin at uiuc.edu Fri Sep 2 07:58:50 2005 From: shimmin at uiuc.edu (Robert Shimmin) Date: Fri Sep 2 07:58:54 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG-TEI: feature request. In-Reply-To: <20050902144648.1111E109971@ws6-4.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20050902144648.1111E109971@ws6-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <431868AA.6060101@uiuc.edu> Joshua Hutchinson wrote: Give me a little better explanation of red-ink (and maybe a link to an example so that I can see what you mean too) and I'll try to see if we have anything currently that would work. Not much to explain. Historically, printers used red ink to highlight important things. The most famous example being that in many editions of the Gospels, words spoken by Christ are printed in red. Mostly, I'm just asking for control over font color. I asked for red in particular because if there are philosophical or technical reasons why the markup should not allow arbitrary control of font color, it would at least be nice to be able to use red. -- RS From lee at novomail.net Fri Sep 2 13:12:37 2005 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Fri Sep 2 13:12:53 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG-TEI: feature request (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 14, Issue 2) In-Reply-To: <20050902190006.6DCBF8C932@pglaf.org> References: <20050902190006.6DCBF8C932@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <4318B235.8040903@novomail.net> Robert Shimmin wrote: > Joshua Hutchinson wrote: > > > Give me a little better explanation of red-ink (and maybe a link to > > an example so that I can see what you mean too) and I'll try to see > > if we have anything currently that would work. > > Not much to explain. Historically, printers used red ink to > highlight important things. The most famous example being that in > many editions of the Gospels, words spoken by Christ are printed in > red. Mostly, I'm just asking for control over font color. > > I asked for red in particular because if there are philosophical or > technical reasons why the markup should not allow arbitrary control > of font color, it would at least be nice to be able to use red. > > -- RS I think you have answered your own question here. TEI is designed to not presume or dictate any particular presentation, with perhaps the exception of distinquishing between block and inline elements. If text is rendered in red text in the original, and you believe that indicates highlighting but you don't know why, use the element. If you want to document that the original highlighting was in red (without suggesting that it ought to ultimately be rendered in a red font) you can use . If you want to suggest that the text ought to be rendered in a red font you can include a style sheet with the selector "hi[type~=redtext] { color: red }." If you want to be specific that you want the text to be rendered in red, without indicating that it was red in the original you could even use . TEI does not have any controlled vocabulary for the 'rend' attribute (although a number of commonly used values are emerging) so as long as your style sheet knows what "rend='red'" means, you ought to be OK. On the other hand, if you know why the text is being highlighted (i.e. it is the words of Jesus) you can use a more specific markup such as . Again, if you want Jesus' words rendered in red, use a style declaration such as "sp[who=Jesus] { color:red }". Despite TEI's acceptance of the 'rend' attribute, if you want to suggest how the document should be rendered you really should use fairly specific and unambiguous markup combined with Cascading Style Sheets or XSL transformations. From marcello at perathoner.de Fri Sep 2 13:53:12 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Fri Sep 2 13:53:23 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG-TEI: feature request. In-Reply-To: <431860AB.6000508@uiuc.edu> References: <908745031.20050824153847@noring.name> <182290311.20050825095043@noring.name> <431860AB.6000508@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <4318BBB8.9080404@perathoner.de> Robert Shimmin wrote: > I'm looking at Version 0.3 of PG-TEI. If that is no longer the current > version, apologies. The following are highlighting modes (inline 'rend' > values) that I've seen employed with some frequency in public domain > printed materials, that are not presently supported by PG-TEI. > > roman (when the 'default' typeface is not roman) > blackletter > red-ink Version 0.4 is coming soon, and will have some more features: - better support for unicode - support for many CSS2 properties in the rend attribute. Eventually we'll switch to support only CSS properties in the rend attribute (we definitely need some standard there!). In the meantime you can use this markup: Roman as "not italic": italic roman italic ... Blackletter: Red-Ink: -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Sep 2 15:16:10 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri Sep 2 15:16:27 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] is that it? Message-ID: <1e.4cacfbd8.304a292a@aol.com> is that it? snide comments from marcello and josh, in the latest thread, and that's all? maybe you people here are getting smarter about picking your battles... or perhaps katrina has given you a more-refined sense of priorities... at any rate, if you can be well-behaved, perhaps you deserve a bit of pudding... have a nice long weekend, everyone... oh, if anyone knows where george bush can find some of his military helicopters, to help those poor people in new orleans, give him a call, would you please? thanks. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050902/e48fb34e/attachment.html From jon at noring.name Sun Sep 4 08:13:34 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Sun Sep 4 08:30:06 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Please help archive the Katrina disaster Message-ID: <84949479.20050904091334@noring.name> [I'm forwarding this for Brewster Kahle at the Internet Archive. If you have any Katrina-related links, please submit them as detailed below. As Brewster requests, please forward the following message to other relevant mailing lists and online forums. Jon Noring, TeBC Administrator] The Internet Archive, a non-profit digital library, needs help in finding URL's of sites and blogs that contain documents of this major disaster. Please email links to sites and pages that should be saved for future research to katrina@archive.org. We have worked to archive events such as 9/11 and the tsunami with the generous help of volunteers finding and sending in links. We then save these digital works for the long term and create research tools (for example: http://www.loc.gov/minerva/collect/sept11/ index.html and http://web.archive.org ). As a library, we provide free access to those wanting to learn from these events-- we can only hope that we learn some lessons from disasters such as these. Again, please send email to katrina@archive.org with lists of URL's you suggest should be archived relevant to the Katrina Disaster. We are also looking for a couple of volunteers that can help orchestrate the crawl. If you are interested, please send a note to katrina@archive.org with "volunteer" in the subject line. Please forward this message to any appropriate lists or people. Thank you. -Brewster Kahle Digital Librarian Internet Archive ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get Bzzzy! (real tools to help you find a job). Welcome to the Sweet Life. http://us.click.yahoo.com/A77XvD/vlQLAA/TtwFAA/89EolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/archivists-talk/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: archivists-talk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From maitriv at yahoo.com Sun Sep 4 19:17:35 2005 From: maitriv at yahoo.com (maitri venkat-ramani) Date: Sun Sep 4 19:24:32 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Please help archive the Katrina disaster In-Reply-To: <84949479.20050904091334@noring.name> Message-ID: <20050905021735.74719.qmail@web52305.mail.yahoo.com> This is Maitri Venkat-Ramani of Project Gutenberg and resident of New Orleans until about a week ago. You've probably been inundated with a ton of Katrina-related news, but I wanted to let you know of three online efforts (blogs and wikis) by New Orleans evacuees. I was wondering if you could help spread the word in your physical as well as electronic community so we can, as they say, mobilize America and help get as much information out as possible. 1) My personal blog is http://vatul.net/blog/ and it is "on the ground" info as well as resources and perspective for evacuees, neighborhood updates and some opinion. CNN/FoxNews and other disastertainment coverage is mostly offensive and disappointing - this is the time when net-savvy evacuees can make a difference. My best friend remains in New Orleans - as much as I don't like it, she gives me a lot of first-hand assessments of the situation. 2) The ThinkNOLA.com wiki - All types of organized information from resources to pictures and neighborhood updates to aid organization. No opinion. 3) The KatrinaHelp blog at http://katrinahelp.blogspot.com/ - news and information about resources, aid, donations and volunteer efforts. Created by the fine folks who made the most successful Southeast Asian Earthquake & Tsunami blog. No opinion. This is also the home of the Katrina Help wiki http://192.122.183.218/wiki/, which is different from the ThinNOLA one mentioned above. Please help get the word out! I'll submit these links to the Internet Archive as well, but your help in spreading the news is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Maitri http://vatul.net/blog/ *** --- Jon Noring wrote: > [I'm forwarding this for Brewster Kahle at the Internet Archive. If > you have any Katrina-related links, please submit them as detailed > below. As Brewster requests, please forward the following message to > other relevant mailing lists and online forums. Jon Noring, TeBC > Administrator] > > > The Internet Archive, a non-profit digital library, needs help in > finding URL's of sites and blogs that contain documents of this major > > disaster. > > Please email links to sites and pages that should be saved for future > > research to katrina@archive.org. > > We have worked to archive events such as 9/11 and the tsunami with > the generous help of volunteers finding and sending in links. We > then save these digital works for the long term and create research > tools (for example: http://www.loc.gov/minerva/collect/sept11/ > index.html and http://web.archive.org ). As a library, we provide > > free access to those wanting to learn from these events-- we can only > > hope that we learn some lessons from disasters such as these. > > Again, please send email to katrina@archive.org with lists of URL's > you suggest should be archived relevant to the Katrina Disaster. > > We are also looking for a couple of volunteers that can help > orchestrate the crawl. If you are interested, please send a note to > > katrina@archive.org with "volunteer" in the subject line. > > Please forward this message to any appropriate lists or people. > > Thank you. > > -Brewster Kahle > Digital Librarian > Internet Archive > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > --------------------~--> > Get Bzzzy! (real tools to help you find a job). Welcome to the Sweet > Life. > http://us.click.yahoo.com/A77XvD/vlQLAA/TtwFAA/89EolB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/archivists-talk/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > archivists-talk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Sep 6 14:06:03 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Tue Sep 6 14:06:18 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] ok then, let's go to work (part 1) Message-ID: <9.4b97901c.304f5ebb@aol.com> ok then, let's go to work... greg asked for actual examples of how online scans might be used to good effect by project gutenberg. one good set of scans is that created by jon noring, for his "my antonia" demo. those scans are here: > http://www.openreader.org/myantonia i subjected the scans to o.c.r. using finereader v7. one of the options in finereader is to output a .pdf. i did that, and have uploaded that .pdf for your perusal: > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/myantonia1.pdf if you look at this .pdf, you will find that finereader does a rather amazing job of retaining the book's formatting. of course, there are scannos in the text, which makes it unusable, but from a _formatting_ standpoint, it is fine. if the .pdf we create at the end of our digitization would look as good as this one finereader makes automatically, just from the scans, we could feel proud of ourselves... that's enough for today... tomorrow we'll go on to look at the o.c.r. output itself... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050906/5625531a/attachment.html From marcello at perathoner.de Tue Sep 6 15:00:13 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue Sep 6 15:00:47 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] ok then, let's go to work (part 1) In-Reply-To: <9.4b97901c.304f5ebb@aol.com> References: <9.4b97901c.304f5ebb@aol.com> Message-ID: <431E116D.1040605@perathoner.de> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > i subjected the scans to o.c.r. using finereader v7. what an original idea ... > one of the options in finereader is to output a .pdf. Now, as you yourself said, the pdf format is useless for further editing. So why don't you try to output something useful, like, say, an XML file. If you were able to get a TEI file out of your finereader, you could actually proofread the thing and produce a pdf file out of it that looks a *lot* better than the one you posted. Besides you would get an html and a plain text file into the bargain, ready for posting. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From joshua at hutchinson.net Tue Sep 6 16:20:42 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Tue Sep 6 16:20:40 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] ok then, let's go to work (part 1) In-Reply-To: <9.4b97901c.304f5ebb@aol.com> References: <9.4b97901c.304f5ebb@aol.com> Message-ID: <431E244A.5030308@hutchinson.net> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > one of the options in finereader is to output a .pdf. > i did that, and have uploaded that .pdf for your perusal: > > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/myantonia1.pdf > > if the .pdf we create at the end of our digitization would > look as good as this one finereader makes automatically, > just from the scans, we could feel proud of ourselves... Personally, I think our TEI -> PDF output looks a lot better. http://pglaf.org/~joshua/15775/15775-pdf.zip (The Rejuvenation of Aunt Mary) http://pglaf.org/~joshua/13945/13945-pdf.zip (Sunny Memories) http://pglaf.org/~joshua/15573/15573-pdf.zip (Judith of the Plains) http://pglaf.org/~joshua/15695/15695-pdf.zip ("Doc." Gordon) http://pglaf.org/~joshua/15796/15795-pdf.zip (Joy in the Morning) (If anyone is interest, remove the *-pdf.zip from the link and you'll see text and html renditions of the same books as well). Josh From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Sep 6 16:32:28 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Tue Sep 6 16:32:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] ok then, let's go to work (part 1) Message-ID: josh said: > Personally, I think our TEI -> PDF output looks a lot better. i'll take a look. (i just explained why i admired the .pdf output of finereader. given that it takes absolutely _no_ work at all, being fully automatic, i think the job that it does is _excellent_. but no, that doesn't mean i admire it in an _absolute_ sense; in addition to the scannos, its font recognition can be wacky.) i'll assume you're open to feedback on these, and i'll give it, so let me know if you'd prefer not to have any... some of the .html-books that have come out of d.p. lately have looked really good. unfortunately, given the problems of viewing an e-book inside of a browser, there are too many situations where the beauty is hidden by browser-based flaws. (probably the biggest thing that irritates me is when a picture is split across a window, and i have to nudge it up or down to view it in its entirety. as a constant bugaboo, it's maddening.) but aside from the shortcomings of the browser, i'd say the people at d.p. are doing great work... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050906/aa028bf1/attachment.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Sep 6 16:56:22 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Tue Sep 6 16:56:41 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] ok then, let's go to work (part 1) Message-ID: marcello said: > what an original idea ... yeah, i thought so. strangely, jon noring didn't do that, though. he grabbed an existing version of the text, and proofread _that_ against the scans... that's why he's still got _errors_ in his text, errors i found by comparing that text with the output that i got from finereader's o.c.r. (thus, the .pdf does not contain jon's errors...) crosschecking independently-derived e-texts in this manner is a great way to do proofing. > Now, as you yourself said, the pdf format is > useless for further editing. well, actually, i didn't say that. because there are ways now to edit a .pdf. it's still clumsy, though. plus, if you were to correct the errors under the finereader interface, and _then_ generate the .pdf, the output would be fine. mostly i don't care much for the .pdf format. but some people seem to like it, even prefer it. truth be told, in this case, where each page of the book will fit comfortably on a monitor -- a two-page spread fills the screen nicely -- .pdf is a perfectly good way to read this book. and as the world moves toward tablet p.c.'s, some disadvantages of acrobat will fade away. (except for its inability to copy out clean text, which might be a problem that adobe finds is extremely difficult to overcome, given its m.o.) but the reason i commented on the fact that finereader does an excellent job of capturing the _formatting_ is that -- believe it or not -- too many digitization efforts, including d.p.!, often just _throw_away_ all that formatting, outputting o.c.r. results to raw-ascii plain-text. this is such a waste! there is extremely valuable information in that formatting, information about the _structure_ of the e-text. indeed, in a good many ways, the art of typesetting is the communication of information about the text's underlying structure. (in a phrase, "some content is _in_ the presentation".) > So why don't you try to output something useful, > like, say, an XML file. since you are one x.m.l. booster here, why don't you? and then take that x.m.l. output and run it through all your xslt conversions, and we'll see what we get! i'm curious to see how robust your methodology is... i highly suspect, though, that you will find that the x.m.l. that finereader outputs is a kind that you are unable to use. and _that_ box of problems is one you don't want to open. it's much more amenable to your x.m.l. hype machine to continue to pretend that any kind of "x.m.l." can be mapped to any other kind of "x.m.l." of course, if that was _really_ true, y'all wouldn't be having the .tei vs. .xhtml vs. .docbook discussions, you'd just use one format and convert to the other. > If you were able to get a TEI file out of your finereader, > you could actually and if pigs could fly, we could use them for air transportation, and not worry about muslim terrorists hijacking the "planes"... (i hope muslims will forgive me for that bit of pig humor...) ;+) > If you were able to get a TEI file out of your finereader, > you could actually proofread the thing and produce a pdf file > out of it that looks a *lot* better than the one you posted. well, as one of the .tei boosters here, why don't _you_ do that? then we'll compare your .pdf with my .pdf -- the one i create after having proofed the text and created a .zml file out of it -- and we'll see which .pdf looks the best of all... my .pdf will be up within the next two weeks, depending on how quickly i get through the thread i have just created, so you've got a little time to do your .tei markup. be my guest... > Besides you would get an html > and a plain text file into the bargain, ready for posting. finereader will create an .html file too, automatically. i'll be uploading that in a few days as well for you to see. and it does a pretty good job of creating an html-book, at least from the standpoint of how the thing _looks_. and of course, it will output a plain-text file. that one will be uploaded tomorrow. it'll also create an .rtf file, which is important because that retains much of the formatting information that i just noted is very important in ascertaining structure. so i'll upload that eventually as well. and i'll be making commentary on all of these uploads. (heck, finereader will even create a powerpoint-book. if only all these formats weren't plagued by scannos.) so fasten your seatbelts, folks, it's gonna be a ride... -bowerbird p.s. i probably won't bother responding to marcello much more, since most of his comments are usually not just not worthwhile, but an actual waste of time. so if he makes a point that you want me to address, it would probably be best if you'd reiterate that point, in your own words. in which case, i'll be happy to reply. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050906/6892050e/attachment.html From JBuck814366460 at aol.com Tue Sep 6 17:48:07 2005 From: JBuck814366460 at aol.com (Jared Buck) Date: Tue Sep 6 17:48:30 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] ok then, let's go to work (part 1) In-Reply-To: <431E244A.5030308@hutchinson.net> References: <9.4b97901c.304f5ebb@aol.com> <431E244A.5030308@hutchinson.net> Message-ID: <431E38C7.1070206@aol.com> Joshua Hutchinson wrote on 9/6/2005, 4:20 PM: > Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > > > one of the options in finereader is to output a .pdf. > > i did that, and have uploaded that .pdf for your perusal: > > > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/myantonia1.pdf > > > > if the .pdf we create at the end of our digitization would > > look as good as this one finereader makes automatically, > > just from the scans, we could feel proud of ourselves... > > Personally, I think our TEI -> PDF output looks a lot better. > > http://pglaf.org/~joshua/15775/15775-pdf.zip (The Rejuvenation of Aunt > Mary) > http://pglaf.org/~joshua/13945/13945-pdf.zip (Sunny Memories) > http://pglaf.org/~joshua/15573/15573-pdf.zip (Judith of the Plains) > http://pglaf.org/~joshua/15695/15695-pdf.zip ("Doc." Gordon) > http://pglaf.org/~joshua/15796/15795-pdf.zip (Joy in the Morning) > > > (If anyone is interest, remove the *-pdf.zip from the link and you'll > see text and html renditions of the same books as well). > > Josh > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > I LOVE the PDF output from the TEI files, it looks very good, Josh :) I have no complaints at all :P Jared From marcello at perathoner.de Wed Sep 7 10:31:27 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed Sep 7 10:31:37 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] ok then, let's go to work (part 1) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <431F23EF.10806@perathoner.de> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > p.s. i probably won't bother responding to marcello > much more, Very wise. You know that you are not up for the challenges I put to you. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From collin at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 7 11:42:47 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Wed Sep 7 11:26:45 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] SF author thinking of donating rights to PG Message-ID: <431F50C7.20228.1B96B2BF@localhost> Hi, Have you read this interview () with science-fiction author Charles Stross? He would not like disappearing into obscurity, so just to be sure he keeps getting published, he is contemplating donating the rights to one of his books to Project Gutenberg once it has stopped making him money: "95% of authors go out of print for good within a couple of years of their death. I don't want to see my literary estate die with me. So I'm currently considering ways of ensuring that when there's no longer any income to be made from them, my copyrights will go somewhere like Project Gutenberg where they can be made available for free. Hopefully this is a long time off, though ..." -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Wed Sep 7 12:04:59 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Wed Sep 7 12:05:21 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] techie help desperately needed Message-ID: <126.64d862c6.305093db@aol.com> Help! I have bought, through eBay, a Gateway Solo, which is probably an antique. The screen works, a few things in setup work; but I was warned before purchasing it that it had no OS and no CD drive. It has an A drive. Theoretically it has a B drive which is now disabled, but I wouldn't know what to do with a B drive anyway. Now that I have unpacked it, I see that it was made to run Windows 95. By some miracle, I still have my Windows 95 software, but, of course, it's on a CD. Would it work to put the CD into my CD drive and copy it onto floppies? Would it work to put the CD into my CD drive and upload it into my portable drive, and then use the portable drive (which is USB) to download it onto the computer? If neither of these would work, what the hay--ell would work? If I can just get the OS on it, it will do exactly what I want it to do. Please answer directly to me. I REALLY don't want to see an argument get started over how to do it. Thanks. Anne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050907/189efca6/attachment.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Sep 7 12:22:04 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed Sep 7 12:22:15 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] ok then, let's go to work (part 1) Message-ID: marcello said: > Very wise. You know that you are not up for the challenges I put to you. ok, folks, here i will begin my practice of nonresponsiveness to such baiting and attempts to derail a productive thread into pettiness... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050907/f4536f13/attachment.html From jmdyck at ibiblio.org Wed Sep 7 12:34:51 2005 From: jmdyck at ibiblio.org (Michael Dyck) Date: Wed Sep 7 12:35:56 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: [gweekly] PT1 Weekly Project Gutenberg Newseltter References: Message-ID: <431F40DB.2A2E61E8@ibiblio.org> Michael Hart wrote: > > ***PROJECT GUTENBERG HAS AVERAGED 500 eBOOKS PER MONTH SINCE JULY 4, 1971*** Uh, you mean "per year". -Michael Dyck From lofstrom at lava.net Wed Sep 7 13:31:07 2005 From: lofstrom at lava.net (Karen Lofstrom) Date: Wed Sep 7 13:59:04 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] SF author thinking of donating rights to PG In-Reply-To: <431F50C7.20228.1B96B2BF@localhost> References: <431F50C7.20228.1B96B2BF@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Branko Collin wrote: > Have you read this interview > () > with science-fiction author Charles Stross? He would not like > disappearing into obscurity, so just to be sure he keeps getting > published, he is contemplating donating the rights to one of his > books to Project Gutenberg once it has stopped making him money: Charlie's wife Feorag is a volunteer at Distributed Proofreaders, and a stalwart member of our Raseff team. -- Karen Lofstrom Zora on DP From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Sep 7 14:52:09 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed Sep 7 14:52:28 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] ok then, let's go to work (part 2) Message-ID: <9d.67961f1f.3050bb09@aol.com> today's lesson will bear on distributed proofreaders. as a reminder, this thread is about the scanset created by jon noring for his "my antonia" demo: > http://www.openreader.org/myantonia since the scans themselves are a fairly hefty download, at 31 megs, you can grab the 5-meg djvu version instead. that allows you to follow along if i refer to certain pages. i've uploaded the text-file that finereader v7 generates as o.c.r. output for "my antonia". this text-file can be downloaded from this u.r.l.: > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/myantonia1.txt or, for those of you who would prefer a .zip version instead: > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/myantonia1-txt.zip i will probably make some references to this text-file in coming days, so if any of you wanna follow along, you should download it and become familiar with it... (and it's only a 500k download, under 200k for the .zip.) one of the most immediate ways that online scans can facilitate the goals of project gutenberg is to make it possible for people to check the text against the scans themselves, to make sure that it's accurate. generally, this is what distributed proofreaders does -- present the text alongside the scan so it can be proofed. but the relevance of the parallel is much more specific; for that we need to delve deeper into the o.c.r. output... as i understand it, d.p. has recently switched to a new methodology, which separates proofing and formatting into separate rounds (with 2 rounds for each of them). part of the formatting involves "meta-formatting". (i think this is part of a formatting round, anyway, not a distinct and separate "round" of its own, but if i am wrong about any of this, i assume that one of the people from d.p. will step in and correct my error.) one aspect of the "meta-formatting" is a checklist that, among other things, indicates if a chapter-heading exists on a specific page. this checklist is used to ensure that the proper markup gets applied to that chapter-heading. that is, each page-scan is pushed out to human being, who then marks an item on a list if it has a header on it. (and other items on the list if it has those other features.) as i have indicated in the past, it is not difficult to write computerized routines to sniff out these section-headers; so it is simply a ridiculous waste of valuable resources to have human beings be making this determination instead. it is much smarter to use the computer to do the bulk of the work at the outset, and then have a human check it. appended is the output from such a routine i wrote in just a short time -- the program is under 50 lines long. if you check against the "my antonia" text, or the scans, you will see that this routine has successfully identified the pages in the book on which there is a section-break. it gives you the page-number, and does the best it can to tell you the actual _text_ of the header on that page. programs like these only take a few minutes to run, so it's easy to see this is a more efficient way to proceed, compared to having a person drudge through every page. i won't tell you exactly _how_ this program operates, because it would do you good to look at pages where there is a section-break, and come up with an answer. a hint for you is that there are _numerous_ indicators, any one of which is sufficient in this current example... you might remember that i have a 30-item checklist consisting of dimensions that are indicative of headers. how many of the 30 items can _you_ come up with? feel free to share your answers with the whole listserve. if enough people come up with enough of the indicators, i will share the source-code of the routine i wrote here... in fact, just for fun, i wrote another quick little routine, using another one of my 30 indicators, and that routine gave me the output that i appended in the second p.s. as you see, this routine produced excellent results too. i have said it before, but i'll repeat it again here now: headers are specifically _designed_ to draw attention, so it is easy to locate them, even in raw o.c.r. output. but heck, before you know it, you'll be smart enough to figure out how to determine _other_ structures as well... another item on the "meta-formatting" checklist is _footnotes_. there is only one footnote in this text, but based on that, how would you write a routine to identify any footnotes? how about block quotations? expressions in a foreign language? tables? lists? poems? all of the various aspects contained in plays? it's not hard. give it a try... -bowerbird p.s. here's that output... 3 Book I 9 II 21 Ill 31 IV 36 V 42 VI 48 VII 57 VIII 70 IX 80 For several weeks after my sleigh-ride, we 91 XI 96 XII 101 XIII 108 XIV 119 XV 131 XVI 137 XVII 145 XVIII 156 XIX 160 Book II 162 Book II 168 II 176 Ill 181 IV 193 V 197 VI 206 VII 220 VIII 225 IX 233 It was at the Vannis* tent that Antonia was 238 XI 244 XII 258 XIII 264 XIV 280 XV 288 Book III 290 Book III 298 II 307 Ill 315 IV 332 Book IV 334 Book IV 342 II 346 Ill 361 IV 366 Book V 368 Book V 399 II 415 Ill 441 COPYRIGHT, 1918, BY WILLA SIBKRT CATHKR 443 CONTENTS 445 INTRODUCTION p.p.s. and here's the output from the second routine. i've left a big hint in here about how this routine operates; can you figure it out? 1=2 2=2 3=24 4=30 8=29 9=26 20=20 21=26 30=28 31=25 35=29 36=26 41=23 42=26 47=17 48=25 56=7 57=26 69=17 70=26 79=6 80=25 90=16 91=26 95=18 96=25 100=13 101=26 107=10 108=27 118=23 119=26 130=8 131=25 135=28 136=22 137=26 138=30 144=25 145=26 155=26 156=26 159=27 160=2 161=3 162=2 163=24 164=30 167=27 168=26 175=16 176=25 180=24 181=26 192=13 193=26 196=12 197=26 205=25 206=26 219=10 220=27 224=29 225=25 232=18 233=25 237=22 238=26 243=19 244=26 257=6 258=26 263=17 264=26 279=28 280=26 288=21 289=3 290=2 291=24 297=18 298=26 306=28 307=26 314=29 315=26 331=29 332=17 333=3 334=2 335=25 336=30 340=29 341=16 342=26 343=30 345=10 346=26 359=29 360=8 361=26 362=30 365=20 366=2 367=3 368=2 369=24 370=30 398=20 399=26 414=8 415=25 419=25 420=4 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050907/bedb7dc4/attachment-0001.html From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Wed Sep 7 14:56:23 2005 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Wed Sep 7 14:57:31 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What's happening at copy.pglaf.org? Message-ID: <3f91e4321c.4321c3f91e@ncf.ca> I've been trying for over two weeks to raise a signal. What gives? Why isn't anyone returning my important email? I have a situation that needs resolution, and until it's resolved, I can't pick up any of the projects I had to leave off this spring. Where is everybody? From joshua at hutchinson.net Wed Sep 7 14:59:32 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Wed Sep 7 14:59:42 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What's happening at copy.pglaf.org? Message-ID: <20050907215932.AB853109BB7@ws6-4.us4.outblaze.com> Well, there are only 2 people that do copyrights. Juliet has been on vacation quite a bit lately (she does the lion's share of copyright clearances) and Greg gets to the harder ones when he can. If your waiting on a copyright clearance, just be patient. If you're trying to raise a question ABOUT the copyright clearance, you'll probably get a faster response here. Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wallace J.McLean" To: gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org Subject: [gutvol-d] What's happening at copy.pglaf.org? Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 17:56:23 -0400 > > > > I've been trying for over two weeks to raise a signal. What gives? Why > isn't anyone returning my important email? I have a situation that > needs resolution, and until it's resolved, I can't pick up any of the > projects I had to leave off this spring. > > Where is everybody? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From hart at pglaf.org Wed Sep 7 15:24:05 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Wed Sep 7 15:24:06 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What's happening at copy.pglaf.org? In-Reply-To: <20050907215932.AB853109BB7@ws6-4.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20050907215932.AB853109BB7@ws6-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: I still do the copyright clearances that people snail via xeroxes, if anyone wants to do that, just email me for the address, etc. Michael On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Joshua Hutchinson wrote: > Well, there are only 2 people that do copyrights. > > Juliet has been on vacation quite a bit lately (she does the lion's share of copyright clearances) and Greg gets to the harder ones when he can. > > If your waiting on a copyright clearance, just be patient. If you're trying to raise a question ABOUT the copyright clearance, you'll probably get a faster response here. > > Josh > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wallace J.McLean" > To: gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > Subject: [gutvol-d] What's happening at copy.pglaf.org? > Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 17:56:23 -0400 > >> >> >> >> I've been trying for over two weeks to raise a signal. What gives? Why >> isn't anyone returning my important email? I have a situation that >> needs resolution, and until it's resolved, I can't pick up any of the >> projects I had to leave off this spring. >> >> Where is everybody? >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gutvol-d mailing list >> gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >> http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From hart at pglaf.org Wed Sep 7 15:28:07 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Wed Sep 7 15:28:09 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] SF author thinking of donating rights to PG In-Reply-To: References: <431F50C7.20228.1B96B2BF@localhost> Message-ID: Sounds great! Let's do something to encourage this! ;-) > On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Branko Collin wrote: > >> Have you read this interview >> () >> with science-fiction author Charles Stross? He would not like >> disappearing into obscurity, so just to be sure he keeps getting >> published, he is contemplating donating the rights to one of his >> books to Project Gutenberg once it has stopped making him money: > > Charlie's wife Feorag is a volunteer at Distributed Proofreaders, and a > stalwart member of our Raseff team. > > -- > Karen Lofstrom > Zora on DP > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From hart at pglaf.org Wed Sep 7 15:50:20 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Wed Sep 7 15:50:22 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: [gweekly] PT1 Weekly Project Gutenberg Newseltter In-Reply-To: <431F40DB.2A2E61E8@ibiblio.org> References: <431F40DB.2A2E61E8@ibiblio.org> Message-ID: Duh! And the original typo was "per week!!!" Double Duh! Sorry, just got back from a LONG drive, still need more sleep. Thanks!!! Will fix! me On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Michael Dyck wrote: > Michael Hart wrote: >> >> ***PROJECT GUTENBERG HAS AVERAGED 500 eBOOKS PER MONTH SINCE JULY 4, 1971*** > > Uh, you mean "per year". > > -Michael Dyck > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From hart at pglaf.org Wed Sep 7 15:54:17 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Wed Sep 7 15:54:18 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] techie help desperately needed In-Reply-To: <126.64d862c6.305093db@aol.com> References: <126.64d862c6.305093db@aol.com> Message-ID: You can have anyone still using 95 make you a boot floppy, or even get 95 on floppies, I think. . .but not sure. mh On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 Gutenberg9443@aol.com wrote: > > Help! > > I have bought, through eBay, a Gateway Solo, which is probably an antique. > The screen works, a few things in setup work; but I was warned before > purchasing it that it had no OS and no CD drive. It has an A drive. Theoretically it > has a B drive which is now disabled, but I wouldn't know what to do with a B > drive anyway. > > Now that I have unpacked it, I see that it was made to run Windows 95. > > By some miracle, I still have my Windows 95 software, but, of course, it's > on a CD. > > Would it work to put the CD into my CD drive and copy it onto floppies? > > Would it work to put the CD into my CD drive and upload it into my portable > drive, and then use the portable drive (which is USB) to download it onto the > computer? > > If neither of these would work, what the hay--ell would work? If I can just > get the OS on it, it will do exactly what I want it to do. > > Please answer directly to me. I REALLY don't want to see an argument get > started over how to do it. > > Thanks. > > Anne > > From sly at victoria.tc.ca Wed Sep 7 16:00:07 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Wed Sep 7 16:00:22 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] SF author thinking of donating rights to PG In-Reply-To: <431F50C7.20228.1B96B2BF@localhost> References: <431F50C7.20228.1B96B2BF@localhost> Message-ID: My recollection from the last time this was mentioned is that PG has had a few authors causually mention ideas like this over the years, but no one has actually gone ahead with it yet. I gather it would require some formal written statement, legally relinquishing copyright at a certain date, or under certain conditions (perhaps such as being out of print for a certain number of years.) I could understand most authors being reluctant to do that. Andrew On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Branko Collin wrote: > Have you read this interview > () > with science-fiction author Charles Stross? He would not like > disappearing into obscurity, so just to be sure he keeps getting > published, he is contemplating donating the rights to one of his > books to Project Gutenberg once it has stopped making him money: From greg at durendal.org Wed Sep 7 16:43:57 2005 From: greg at durendal.org (Greg Weeks) Date: Wed Sep 7 16:43:06 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What's happening at copy.pglaf.org? In-Reply-To: <3f91e4321c.4321c3f91e@ncf.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Wallace J.McLean wrote: > > > I've been trying for over two weeks to raise a signal. What gives? Why > isn't anyone returning my important email? I have a situation that > needs resolution, and until it's resolved, I can't pick up any of the > projects I had to leave off this spring. > > Where is everybody? Juliet has been on vacation. I've been in email contact with Greg Newby, but haven't gotten any clearances through. Greg was away for a while too, so I suspect there is a backlog all around. Juliet said there was about 400 clearances in the queue a couple of days ago on one of the dp forums. -- Greg Weeks http://durendal.org:8080/greg/ From vze3rknp at verizon.net Wed Sep 7 17:34:35 2005 From: vze3rknp at verizon.net (Juliet Sutherland) Date: Wed Sep 7 18:34:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What's happening at copy.pglaf.org? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <431F871B.501@verizon.net> I'm back and have cleared out the clearances that accumulated while I was gone. I've returned to doing the "easy" clearances about twice a week. Anything that requires Greg Newby's attention will take substantially longer. Juliet Greg Weeks wrote: >On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Wallace J.McLean wrote: > > > >>I've been trying for over two weeks to raise a signal. What gives? Why >>isn't anyone returning my important email? I have a situation that >>needs resolution, and until it's resolved, I can't pick up any of the >>projects I had to leave off this spring. >> >>Where is everybody? >> >> > >Juliet has been on vacation. I've been in email contact with Greg Newby, >but haven't gotten any clearances through. Greg was away for a while too, >so I suspect there is a backlog all around. Juliet said there was about >400 clearances in the queue a couple of days ago on one of the dp forums. > > > From shimmin at uiuc.edu Thu Sep 8 06:02:07 2005 From: shimmin at uiuc.edu (Robert Shimmin) Date: Thu Sep 8 06:02:16 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] SF author thinking of donating rights to PG In-Reply-To: References: <431F50C7.20228.1B96B2BF@localhost> Message-ID: <4320364F.6020109@uiuc.edu> Andrew Sly wrote: > My recollection from the last time this was mentioned > is that PG has had a few authors causually mention ideas > like this over the years, but no one has actually gone > ahead with it yet. I gather it would require some formal > written statement, legally relinquishing copyright at > a certain date, or under certain conditions (perhaps > such as being out of print for a certain number of years.) > I could understand most authors being reluctant to > do that. They don't have to do that. They merely have to license PG with perpetual, non-exclusive, world-wide rights to distribute the book on a royalty-free basis. See the FAQ, question V.71. http://www.gutenberg.org/faq/V-71 -- RS From kth at srv.net Thu Sep 8 08:06:08 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu Sep 8 08:05:19 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] techie help desperately needed In-Reply-To: <126.64d862c6.305093db@aol.com> References: <126.64d862c6.305093db@aol.com> Message-ID: <43205360.2060008@srv.net> Gutenberg9443@aol.com wrote: > Help! > > I have bought, through eBay, a Gateway Solo, which is probably an > antique. The screen works, a few things in setup work; but I was > warned before purchasing it that it had no OS and no CD drive. It has > an A drive. Theoretically it has a B drive which is now disabled, but > I wouldn't know what to do with a B drive anyway. > > Now that I have unpacked it, I see that it was made to run Windows 95. > > By some miracle, I still have my Windows 95 software, but, of course, > it's on a CD. > > Would it work to put the CD into my CD drive and copy it onto floppies? Wouldn't fit on one, and you would need to rewrite the install programs to put it on more than one. The CD version was also different from the floppy one (had more stuff on it mostly). > > Would it work to put the CD into my CD drive and upload it into my > portable drive, and then use the portable drive (which is USB) to > download it onto the computer? Does your new PC have a USB port? I don't think those existed in the 95 days, or were very uncommon. Does your PC allow booting from USB, or even recognize it without the drivers? Does your USB drive come with drivers for 95? > > If neither of these would work, what the hay--ell would work? If I can > just get the OS on it, it will do exactly what I want it to do. You'll need to find a copy of the original install floppies if all you have is a floppy drive. And make sure they are an INSTALL set and not an UPGRADE set. You can install only from an install set. If you ever need to re-install anything, you will then need the UPGRADE set. If you were installing Linux, you could pull the drive out and put it into a machine with a CD drive, install the software, then put the drive back. That NEVER worked for me with Windows (of any version). Changing the hardware completely confuses Windows, and it quickly goes downhill from there. > > Please answer directly to me. I REALLY don't want to see an argument > get started over how to do it. > To test your PC, you may want to try FreeDos http://freedos.org. ... I don't know if you can copy the CD to a partition on the hard drive, and then install from there. You would probably get better answers on a MicroSoft newsgroup. > Thanks. > > Anne From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Thu Sep 8 08:43:38 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 8 08:43:58 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] techie help desperately needed Message-ID: <1f8.119fba84.3051b62a@aol.com> Thank you. I've sent an email to Microsoft to see whether it can supply me with the floppies. If that doesn't work . . . . Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050908/417814e7/attachment-0001.html From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Thu Sep 8 08:54:04 2005 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Thu Sep 8 08:55:08 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What's happening at copy.pglaf.org? Message-ID: <5b90c55bed.55bed5b90c@ncf.ca> It's not an individual clearance problem. It's a technical site problem. I'm locked out of my copy.pglaf account, and unless and until I can break into it, I cannot resume projects that I had to leave in abeyance last spring, or start new ones. From hart at pglaf.org Thu Sep 8 09:07:17 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu Sep 8 09:07:19 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] techie help desperately needed In-Reply-To: <1f8.119fba84.3051b62a@aol.com> References: <1f8.119fba84.3051b62a@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 Gutenberg9443@aol.com wrote: > Thank you. I've sent an email to Microsoft to see whether it can supply me > with the floppies. If that doesn't work . . . . I would think you could get much faster results, and cheaper, by trying other places. I could try to get one in the mail to you in a few days. The usual SLC address? Michael > > > Anne > > Do you like to breathe? > Then save the trees! > Begin a personal relationship > with an ebook > TODAY! > From gbnewby at pglaf.org Fri Sep 9 12:21:30 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Fri Sep 9 12:21:33 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What's happening at copy.pglaf.org? In-Reply-To: <5b90c55bed.55bed5b90c@ncf.ca> References: <5b90c55bed.55bed5b90c@ncf.ca> Message-ID: <20050909192130.GA25617@pglaf.org> On Thu, Sep 08, 2005 at 11:54:04AM -0400, Wallace J.McLean wrote: > > > It's not an individual clearance problem. It's a technical site > problem. I'm locked out of my copy.pglaf account, and unless and until > I can break into it, I cannot resume projects that I had to leave in > abeyance last spring, or start new ones. The only messages I have from Wallace are in the gutvol-d thread. I'm not sure what happened: whether he sent a message to copyright@pglaf.org or elsewhere, and why it wasn't seen. -- Greg From gbnewby at pglaf.org Fri Sep 9 12:32:10 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Fri Sep 9 12:32:12 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] CD/DVD ISO maker ready for testing Message-ID: <20050909193210.GD25617@pglaf.org> Please see information below from a wonderful UAF student and ARSC student employee, Craig Stephenson. Craig has been working with me this past year, and has made very good progress on a dream of mine: automated easy creation of ISO files. Please visit this site to experiment with a new system for making a custom CD or DVD ISO image: http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/pgiso/ This system allows the user to create a collection of Project Gutenberg etexts through a web interface, in only the formats and languages desired, that can be made into an ISO file to be downloaded and written to CD or DVD. HTML index files are generated prior to ISO creation, to be included in the ISO, which list the title, author, language, and links to all of the files associated with each etext. Once you've submitted an ISO creation job, the job will be entered into a queue and you will be notified with an email including a URL upon completion. I think this system is self-explanatory for the most part. Please notify me with any questions, problems or suggestions, be they functional or cosmetic. There are probably a few things that could still use some polish. Feedback & discussion can to go the gutvol-d list, but please cc Craig on anything you'd like him to see: Craig Stephenson -- Greg From jon_niehof at yahoo.com Fri Sep 9 12:50:49 2005 From: jon_niehof at yahoo.com (Jon Niehof) Date: Fri Sep 9 12:50:59 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] CD/DVD ISO maker ready for testing In-Reply-To: <20050909193210.GD25617@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <20050909195049.61422.qmail@web32910.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Greg Newby wrote: > Please visit this site to experiment with a new system for > making a custom CD or DVD ISO image: /Oh wow!/ Craig, that's wonderful. It's nicely consistent with the PG look-and-feel as well. Thank you! ______________________________________________________ Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Sep 9 13:13:45 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri Sep 9 13:14:01 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] ok then, let's go to work (part 3) Message-ID: <8b.2f3cbc54.305346f9@aol.com> and here's today's post... again, i'm talking about the scan-set that exists at: > http://www.openreader.org/myantonia those scans were subjected to o.c.r. by finereader v7, with the resultant text-file located here: > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/myantonia1.txt one of the things you should notice about this text-file is that the original linebreaks were retained by the o.c.r. linebreak retention is very important when it comes to comparing the text-file against the page-scans because it makes that comparison many times easier to accomplish. one of the hassles with those original linebreaks, however, is with the words that were hyphenated at the end of a line. you can't just rejoin all words that have end-line hyphens, because some of 'em might be words that are hyphenated even when they're in the middle of a line. you _could_ use a dictionary, to determine whether the word is a compound, a better way is to use the actual text of this particular book, in case the author had some idiosyncrasies. so, in order to identify such words, we need a computer routine that finds all of the words that were hyphenated in the middle of a line. it's not hard to write such a routine, and the results from it -- for the "my antonia" text-file -- are appended to this post... once you have these "truly-hyphenated" words, you can then write a routine to correctly rejoin end-of-line hyphenated words. of course, you would only do this _after_ you are done proofing. (it is _here_ that you would do a compare against a dictionary, to make sure that you were doing the rejoins "correctly" and to "flag" any exceptions, so they could be checked more closely, to ensure that they were indeed idiosyncratic to the book/author.) you probably should also retain a copy with the original linebreaks, just in case it will come in handy for someone else down the line. another option would be to code the original linebreaks so that a viewer-app could keep them if the end-reader wants them, or delete them (i.e., convert 'em to spaces) if that's what's desired. after all, isn't the best general attitude to _retain_information_ that can't be reproduced, and not throw it away, if at all possible? there has been a growing realization that page-break info should be saved. why isn't the same realization extended to linebreaks? some people will want to reproduce the original p-book as closely as possible, and linebreaks would be an important aspect of that. distributed proofreaders keeps linebreaks up until the last minute -- because they understand that linebreaks help proofing immensely -- but then they throw them away, seemingly oblivious to the fact that they also could be extremely useful to someone else later on... don't throw this valuable information away! someone might want it! *** as your bonus for today, i've uploaded the .rtf file that finereader generates automatically out of the o.c.r. process. as i remarked wednesday, _styling_ information -- which is included in the .rtf -- can be very valuable in helping ascertain the book's structure... the .rtf can be found at: > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/myantonia1.rtf for those who prefer a .zip, it's at: > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/myantonia1-rtf.zip as illustration of today's lesson, however, i have uploaded an .rtf that does _not_ retain the original linebreaks. if you compare it to the .txt version -- to which it is identical -- you'll see just how difficult the comparison can be when that linebreak information is discarded, and all unnecessarily so, because it could easily be kept. *** so, was anyone able to "figure out" the heuristics that i was using in wednesday's routines to ferret out the headers in "my antonia"? speak up, folks, don't be shy, or you won't get any source-code... *** see you on monday, with part 4... -bowerbird p.s. here is the list of "truly-hyphenated" words in "my antonia": (this is the list before some unwanted one-of-a-kind exceptions have been culled fro it, such as the first two listed. a double-dash is an end-of-line hyphen that was part of an otherwise hyphenated word.) An'-ton-ee-ah An-tonia Ar-r-r-mond Good-bye Good-evening Good-morning High-School Indian-like Jake-y May-basket Preserving-time Snow-White Sunday-School Te-e-ach To-day Wash-day a-goin' a-going a-quiver absent-minded alligator-skin ashy-gray awkward-looking ball-gloves bar-room bar-tender barbed-wire bath-water bay-window be-frogged bed-ticking bee-bush black--and-white-check bluff-top boarding-house boarding-houses boot-tops bottle-tomatoes bow-legged box-couch box-elder brand-new bread-board breast-pocket bright-flowered bringing-up broad-backed broad-minded bronze-green buffalo-peas buggy-riding bull-snake bull-snakes bunk-bed butter-maker cabinet-maker cabinet-work cake-cut--ters candle-moulds car-window car-windows cared-for carpenter-shop case-hardened cattle-pond cave-house cheek-bones cheerful-looking chicken-bone chicken-house cigar-stand clap-trap clasp-knife close-clipped close-cropped close-growing cloud-hung coat-tail coffee-cake coffee-pot cologne-scented cone-flower cone-flowers cook-stove copper-red corn-knife court-plaster cow-pumpkin crab-apples cross-roads cuff-buttons curly-headed cutting-tables day-coaches deep-seated deep-seeing deep-set developing-room dining-room dog-town dog-towns door-bell door-crack down-feathers down-hearted draft-horse dragon-slayer draw-bank draw-bottom draw-head draw-side dressing-room dress--ing-room drug-store dry-goods dumb-bell dun-shaded dusty-smelling earth-owls easy-blowing easy-chair elder-hunting ever-falling every-day faint-hearted fair-skinned fancy-work far-away far-seeing farm-boy farm-work fashion-plates faun-like feather-bed feather-beds feed-bag fellow-countryman fellow-countrymen fifty-five finger-bowls finger-exercises finger-tips fire-box first-cabin flat-chested flat-topped forget-me-nots full-grown fur-worker gaming-tables garment-makers' ghost-moon gold-green gold-headed gold-washed golden-rod good-bye good-byes good-looking good-nature good-naturedly good-night goods-box grain-cars grain-sack grammar-school grape-arbor green-topped griddle-cakes ground-cherries ground-cherry grown-up guinea-hens half-buried half-ear half-fares half-grown half-mile half-past half-section half-story half-swooning half-window half-windows hand-painted hand-sheller hard-and-fast hard-worked hay-cave hay-fights head-first heart-broke heavy-odored hide--and-seek high-collared high-heeled hitch-bar hitching-bar hollow-chested home-coming hoo-hoo horse-collar horse-pond horse-sense house-cleaning husking-gloves ice-cold ice-cream ink-smeared iron-gray ironing-boards jack-rabbits kawn-tree kawntree-man ketch-on lady-teacher lard-pail large-minded level-headed liberal-minded lifting-up light-hearted lightning-flashes lining-silk living-room lodging-house lone--some-like long-winded low-branching lunch-basket merry-go-around merry-go-round merry-making mid-day mid-ocean milk--ing-pails mixing-bowl money-lender moth-like mountain-ash mournful-looking music-master natural-born natural-like nev-er never-ending newly-created non-existent nose-bleed nut-cake oil-can oil-cloth oilcloth-covered oil--cloth-covered old- old-fashioned old-maidishness one-night open-grazing orange-colored out-of-door over-considerate over-delicate owl-feather pagoda-like pale-blue pale-gold paper-hanger paper-rack passers-by pea-vines peck-measure picture-books pig-yards pillow-cases plough-handles plum-patch pocket-mirror pocket-money porch-posts post-office prairie-dog prayer-book prayer-meeting pump-handle quick-changing quick-footed rabbit-skin race-course raw-boned reading-table ready-made reap--ing-hook red-lined ripple-marks rocking-chair roll-call round-collared round-eyed round-shouldered run-over rye-field saddle-bags sand-blast school-teachers scroll-work scrub-oaks sea-coast section-lines self-asser--tiveness self-possessed self-possession self-sacrifice shaving-mug sheep-fold sheet-iron shirt-sleeves shooting-coat side-road silver-rimmed sing-song sitting-room sky-line slack-wire sleigh-bells sleigh-ride slim-waisted small-town snake-cane snake-skins snow-banks snow-blocked snow-covered snow-field snow-men snow-on-the-mountain snow-white soft-hearted stage-driver steel-gray stop-watch stopping-place store-boxes storm-win--dows straw-colored strong-minded sturdy-looking sugar-cakes sun-down sun-up sun-warmed sunflower-bordered supper-table sway-backed te-e-ach tea-kettle ten-dollar thick-set thoughtful-look--ing thrashing-machines title-page to-day to-morrow to-night train-crew tree-tops trom--bone-player trotting-horse trot--ting-buggy trout-fishing trumpet-blowing turning-lathe twenty-dollar twenty-four twenty-six un-wishful under-side up-bringing violin-teacher violin-teachf waffle-irons wagon-box wagon-seat wagon-tracks wagon-trail wall-paper war-times warm-blooded warm-hearted wash-basin wash-boiler watch-case watch-charm water-pipes water-spaniel water-tap water-tin weak-minded wedding-ring week-day well-behaved well-dressed well-fed well-grown well-made well-planted well-prepared well-set-up well-to-do west-bound wheel-rim wheel-ruts whinny-laugh white-handed white--and-gold wild-eyed wild-looking win-ter windmill-frame window-blinds window-shade wine-colored wine-stains wo-man wolf-cry women-folk work-basket work-horse work-horses work-room work-table work-team work-teams working-man working-slippers yard-measure yoke-mate -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050909/2ea6f90a/attachment.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Sep 9 13:40:12 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri Sep 9 13:40:27 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] CD/DVD ISO maker ready for testing Message-ID: greg said: > Please visit this site to experiment with > a new system for making a custom CD or DVD ISO image: that is _very_ good news indeed... thanks and congratulations, craig... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050909/7cc461f4/attachment-0001.html From joey at joeysmith.com Fri Sep 9 14:20:46 2005 From: joey at joeysmith.com (joey) Date: Fri Sep 9 14:28:43 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] ok then, let's go to work (part 3) In-Reply-To: <8b.2f3cbc54.305346f9@aol.com> References: <8b.2f3cbc54.305346f9@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050909212046.GC9102@joeysmith.com> I just wanted to clarify, in case I missed something. Did you actually just send out a 6 page email to say "I think it's useful to retain linebreaks?" From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Sep 9 14:34:38 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri Sep 9 14:34:53 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] ok then, let's go to work (part 3) Message-ID: joey said: > I just wanted to clarify, in case I missed something. > Did you actually just send out a 6 page email to say > "I think it's useful to retain linebreaks?" well, there _was_ more information there, but at least you got _something_ out of it! the question is whether you _act_ on it, now, or whether it takes many more 6-page e-mails. (this isn't the first time i've had to make the point.) at any rate, thanks for reading along, joey... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050909/11232a14/attachment.html From marcello at perathoner.de Fri Sep 9 14:37:55 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Fri Sep 9 14:38:10 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] ok then, let's go to work (part 3) In-Reply-To: <20050909212046.GC9102@joeysmith.com> References: <8b.2f3cbc54.305346f9@aol.com> <20050909212046.GC9102@joeysmith.com> Message-ID: <432200B3.1060901@perathoner.de> joey wrote: > Did you actually just send out a 6 page email to say > "I think it's useful to retain linebreaks?" Did he actually *say* something in a 6-page email? He is improving ... -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sat Sep 10 13:05:58 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sat Sep 10 13:06:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What's happening at copy.pglaf.org? In-Reply-To: <431F871B.501@verizon.net> References: <431F871B.501@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20050910200558.GC23518@pglaf.org> On Wed, Sep 07, 2005 at 08:34:35PM -0400, Juliet Sutherland wrote: > I'm back and have cleared out the clearances that accumulated while I > was gone. I've returned to doing the "easy" clearances about twice a > week. Anything that requires Greg Newby's attention will take > substantially longer. > > Juliet I'm sorry for the delays in my response. In addition to various travel, I've been a little overwhelmed by my enhance job duties lately. (I mean, my paying job -- not my volunteer job for Project Gutenberg.) I'm perpetually trying to catch up... if you have something that is urgent, or just are worried that I didn't see an email from you, please re-send it. -- Greg > Greg Weeks wrote: > > >On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Wallace J.McLean wrote: > > > > > > > >>I've been trying for over two weeks to raise a signal. What gives? Why > >>isn't anyone returning my important email? I have a situation that > >>needs resolution, and until it's resolved, I can't pick up any of the > >>projects I had to leave off this spring. > >> > >>Where is everybody? > >> > >> > > > >Juliet has been on vacation. I've been in email contact with Greg Newby, > >but haven't gotten any clearances through. Greg was away for a while too, > >so I suspect there is a backlog all around. Juliet said there was about > >400 clearances in the queue a couple of days ago on one of the dp forums. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From ke at gnu.franken.de Sat Sep 10 20:34:27 2005 From: ke at gnu.franken.de (Karl Eichwalder) Date: Sat Sep 10 21:50:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: XML has hit the PG archives! (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 13, Issue 19) In-Reply-To: <430BBAB7.8050906@perathoner.de> (Marcello Perathoner's message of "Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:09:27 +0200") References: <20050823160216.6E6438C8E8@pglaf.org> <430BB1B7.1080006@novomail.net> <430BBAB7.8050906@perathoner.de> Message-ID: Marcello Perathoner writes: > Also, things like footnotes are impossible with CSS. So why bother? Display footnotes as sidenotes. -- http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/ | ,__o | _-\_<, | (*)/'(*) Key fingerprint = F138 B28F B7ED E0AC 1AB4 AA7F C90A 35C3 E9D0 5D1C From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sun Sep 11 10:33:19 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sun Sep 11 10:33:22 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What the Hack?! and other conferences next week In-Reply-To: <42FCD480.15055.7322F5@localhost> References: <42E42405.32070.11B1840@localhost> <42FCD480.15055.7322F5@localhost> Message-ID: <20050911173319.GA28144@pglaf.org> On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 04:55:28PM +0200, Branko Collin wrote: > > On 24 Jul 2005, at 19:51, Greg Newby wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 24, 2005 at 11:28:05PM +0200, Branko Collin wrote: > > > > > http://www.whatthehack.org > > > > One of my talks will be about Project Gutenberg, while > > the other is about information retrieval: > > > > Saturday July 30 > > "Literature wants to be free!" (Day 3, Tent 4, 1:00-2:00 pm) > > > > Friday July 29 > > "Search engine internal processes" (Day 2, Tent 2, 10:00 - 11:00 am) > > > > These will be recorded, but not streamed live. > > I have been trying to find these recordings, but the Hacktick hacker > camps have a tradition of sporting the Worst Website Evar, and this > one is no exception. In other words, I could not find them. Oops - I thought I had already responded. The answer is: http://rehash.whatthehack.org The files are very big. -- Greg From cannona at fireantproductions.com Sun Sep 11 16:19:51 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Sun Sep 11 16:22:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What the Hack?! and other conferences next week In-Reply-To: <20050911173319.GA28144@pglaf.org> References: <42E42405.32070.11B1840@localhost> <42FCD480.15055.7322F5@localhost> <20050911173319.GA28144@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050911181809.042eb8d0@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 12:33 PM 9/11/2005, you wrote: >The answer is: > http://rehash.whatthehack.org > >The files are very big. If anyone on dialup or a slow connection would like to hear the presentation, please let me know and I can put it up as a small mp3 or windows media file if the video is important to you. Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDJLwzI7J99hVZuJcRAnawAKCzir/cBVactSH9jM7KQLoDkh11IgCg1wi/ i5gEcOxXbsNnhM/soMsvdYI= =elM9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From brandon at corruptedtruth.com Sun Sep 11 21:27:23 2005 From: brandon at corruptedtruth.com (Brandon Galbraith) Date: Sun Sep 11 21:51:37 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What the Hack?! and other conferences next week In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050911181809.042eb8d0@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <42E42405.32070.11B1840@localhost> <42FCD480.15055.7322F5@localhost> <20050911173319.GA28144@pglaf.org> <6.2.1.2.0.20050911181809.042eb8d0@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <432503AB.50401@corruptedtruth.com> I'd also be willing to send out the media files on CD/DVD. -brandon Aaron Cannon wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > At 12:33 PM 9/11/2005, you wrote: > >> The answer is: >> http://rehash.whatthehack.org >> >> The files are very big. > > > If anyone on dialup or a slow connection would like to hear the > presentation, please let me know and I can put it up as a small mp3 or > windows media file if the video is important to you. > > Aaron Cannon > > > > - -- > E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com > Skype: cannona > MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail > address.) > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 > Comment: Key available from all major key servers. > > iD8DBQFDJLwzI7J99hVZuJcRAnawAKCzir/cBVactSH9jM7KQLoDkh11IgCg1wi/ > i5gEcOxXbsNnhM/soMsvdYI= > =elM9 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > From tb at baechler.net Mon Sep 12 01:22:35 2005 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Mon Sep 12 01:22:32 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What the Hack?! and other conferences next week In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050911181809.042eb8d0@mail.fireantproductions. com> References: <20050911173319.GA28144@pglaf.org> <42E42405.32070.11B1840@localhost> <42FCD480.15055.7322F5@localhost> <20050911173319.GA28144@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050912011853.03e5a610@bisinc.us> Hello. I am blind so the video does me no good at all obviously. Yes, I would really like to hear just the mp3 audio of a lot of the presentations. There seems to be another done by Greg Newby on the same page. Also, why not upload the presentations to the Internet Archive since the files have a CC license? I think they generate mp3 from the mp4 anyway. Just the audio would be very appreciated. Why not post just the audio to PG? You could actually post both but the huge video file might deter people with limited disk space or slow connections. I think it would be nice to see more audio of various sorts being posted anyway. At 06:19 PM 9/11/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>The answer is: >> http://rehash.whatthehack.org >> >>The files are very big. > >If anyone on dialup or a slow connection would like to hear the >presentation, please let me know and I can put it up as a small mp3 or >windows media file if the video is important to you. > >Aaron Cannon From sly at victoria.tc.ca Mon Sep 12 00:19:32 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Mon Sep 12 09:58:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Looking for help from German speaker Message-ID: I have found two author records in the PG catalog that should probably be combined, but I'd like a German speaker to help confirm that. Is the author of PG#15891, Velimirovitch, Nicola, the same person as Velimirovic, Nikolai? Description of this author can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Velimirovi%C4%87 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaj_Velimirovi%C4%87 Thanks, Andrew From marcello at perathoner.de Mon Sep 12 10:32:18 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Mon Sep 12 10:32:29 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Looking for help from German speaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4325BBA2.9040503@perathoner.de> Andrew Sly wrote: > I have found two author records in the PG catalog that should > probably be combined, but I'd like a German speaker to help > confirm that. > > Is the author of PG#15891, Velimirovitch, Nicola, the same > person as Velimirovic, Nikolai? > > Description of this author can be found here: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Velimirovi%C4%87 > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaj_Velimirovi%C4%87 I think we can assume its the same person. "Bis 1908 studierte er an der altkatholischen Fakult?t der Universit?t Bern, wo er die Doktorw?rde in Philosophie erlangte." He studied philosophy in Berne until 1908, where he took his degree. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From lee at novomail.net Mon Sep 12 11:18:37 2005 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Mon Sep 12 11:18:47 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] SF author thinking of donating rights to PG (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 14, Issue 9) In-Reply-To: <20050908154357.DB9ED8C8D6@pglaf.org> References: <20050908154357.DB9ED8C8D6@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <4325C67D.7090409@novomail.net> Robert Shimmin wrote: > Andrew Sly wrote: > >> My recollection from the last time this was mentioned >> is that PG has had a few authors causually mention ideas >> like this over the years, but no one has actually gone >> ahead with it yet. I gather it would require some formal >> written statement, legally relinquishing copyright at >> a certain date, or under certain conditions (perhaps >> such as being out of print for a certain number of years.) >> I could understand most authors being reluctant to >> do that. > > They don't have to do that. They merely have to license PG with > perpetual, non-exclusive, world-wide rights to distribute the book on > a royalty-free basis. See the FAQ, question V.71. > > http://www.gutenberg.org/faq/V-71 > > -- RS Following the recommendations made in the FAQ may satisfy Project Gutenberg's requirements, but in may not satisfy the author's. If you look at the language in the FAQ you will see that a this type of a license grants to Project Gutenberg the right to make and distribute copies of a book (presumably; the proposed language is a little unclear on this point). It does not grant to anyone who obtains a copy from Project Gutenberg the right to _re_-distribute the book. Now, pretty much everyone understands that Project Gutenberg is not really an archive. The provenance of the e-texts it distributes is uncertain, editorial changes are undocumented, and as a result of the focus on over-simplified text "many things that should not have been forgotten have been lost." The true role of Project Gutenberg has rather been to reduce the barriers to access for a large number of classic texts. The notion that texts downloaded from Project Gutenberg cannot be shared seems to be antithetical to goal of making e-texts accessible. On a somewhat unrelated note, I have heard anecdotes of people who have downloaded PG e-text and then actually gone out and _purchased_ commercial electronic versions of the same text in the hope (sometimes vain) that the commercial version would provide a better reading experience. If I were an author hoping to preserve my work well into the future, I would be sure that 1. the grant of privilege would include rights of redistribution and 2. the work could not be modified in any way that would remove provenance, metadata, or semanticaly significant markup (such as logical emphasis). The Creative Commons non-commercial, no-derivative-works licence actual statisfies both of these goals well, and I note that Charles Stross, the author about whom this thread started, has actually released his latest novel in electronic form using just such a license (http://www.accelerando.org/book/). The real question is how Project Gutenberg choses to deal with works which are not public domain and to which a specific license grant has not been made to Project Gutenberg, but which _are_ freely distributable via a Creative Commons license. As I read the CC license there is nothing there which would prevent PG from simply taking such works and adding them to its catalog (although it may be unlawful to add the inconsequential Project Gutenberg boilerplate). On the other hand, there was some discussion here last month about whether or not PG would be willing to accept into its catalog scholarly annotations of existing classical text already part of its collection. The answer seemed to be that it would not, apparently based on the fear that Project Gutenberg might become a forum for any splinter group seeking to promote a special agenda (e.g., a commentary on _The Voyage of the Beagle_ by someone promoting "intelligent design" as a scientific theory). I believe there is some wisdom in this position. But it does raise the question about what to do when someone with an entirely new work wants to distribute it via Project Gutenberg. Perhaps the answer should be that Project Gutenberg will only accept new works which 1. have an existing publication history through a non-vanity press, and 2. can be freely distributed, and re-distributed, at least non-commercially, and that Project Gutenberg will only catalog and distribute such books at the request of someone _other than_ the author. It may be that Project Gutenberg will want to limit itself to digitizing and popularizing only Public Domain texts that are no longer current, and leave to other organizations, such as the Internet Archive, the role of archiving current texts. From cannona at fireantproductions.com Mon Sep 12 11:21:24 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Mon Sep 12 11:24:34 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] entire Gutenberg ebook collection on a flash drive Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050912131554.020a1620@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 It may be closer than we think. http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8CIRUE02.htm?campaign_id=apn_tech_down&chan=tc In short, Samsung has developed a new flash memory chip that holds a lot more data. From the article: "By putting together 16 of the new NAND chips it's possible to create a 32-gigabyte product that can store 8,000 MP3 audio files or 20 DVD movies." Perhaps in the future, we'll be sending out flash memory cards instead of DVDs. :) Time will tell. Sincerely Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDJcfiI7J99hVZuJcRAsJgAJ9WzQcCnlGSrfv49LnG3BdYxLvuswCg+EjJ mjuzuDYw7LBIJPUsEdBfYTY= =NWfT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From marcello at perathoner.de Mon Sep 12 11:50:52 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Mon Sep 12 11:51:07 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] entire Gutenberg ebook collection on a flash drive In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050912131554.020a1620@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050912131554.020a1620@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <4325CE0C.9090806@perathoner.de> Aaron Cannon wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > It may be closer than we think. > http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8CIRUE02.htm?campaign_id=apn_tech_down&chan=tc > > > > In short, Samsung has developed a new flash memory chip that holds a lot > more data. From the article: "By putting together 16 of the new NAND chips > it's possible to create a 32-gigabyte product that can store 8,000 MP3 > audio files or 20 DVD movies." > > Perhaps in the future, we'll be sending out flash memory cards instead of > DVDs. :) Time will tell. > > Sincerely > Aaron Cannon > > > - -- > E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com > Skype: cannona > MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail > address.) > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 > Comment: Key available from all major key servers. > > iD8DBQFDJcfiI7J99hVZuJcRAsJgAJ9WzQcCnlGSrfv49LnG3BdYxLvuswCg+EjJ > mjuzuDYw7LBIJPUsEdBfYTY= > =NWfT > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From marcello at perathoner.de Mon Sep 12 12:10:20 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Mon Sep 12 12:10:33 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] entire Gutenberg ebook collection on a flash drive In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050912131554.020a1620@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050912131554.020a1620@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <4325D29C.8000209@perathoner.de> Aaron Cannon wrote: > In short, Samsung has developed a new flash memory chip that holds a lot > more data. From the article: "By putting together 16 of the new NAND chips > it's possible to create a 32-gigabyte product that can store 8,000 MP3 > audio files or 20 DVD movies." Old news, 2 GB flash chips have been around for quite a while ... and Wikipedia is already distributing on flash cards. If you take one zipped txt file from all PG books that have txt files, the lot of it will go onto two 2 GB flash cards. By the time the first 4 GB flash cards come out, (and by the time I'll have thrown out all copyrighted books and all the books that I feel only a cruel and impish fate has wrenched away from the deserved oblivion,) I'll certainly build a `Pocket-PG'. This has been on my list for a long time. I wonder if M$ will sue over "Pocket-PG" :-) -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From marcello at perathoner.de Mon Sep 12 12:41:04 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Mon Sep 12 12:41:15 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] entire Gutenberg ebook collection on a flash drive In-Reply-To: <4325D29C.8000209@perathoner.de> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050912131554.020a1620@mail.fireantproductions.com> <4325D29C.8000209@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <4325D9D0.3040902@perathoner.de> Marcello Perathoner wrote: > By the time the first 4 GB flash cards come out, I lied. 4 GB Compact Flash cards are already out. So if you own a handheld that can read those, you are set. And, if you throw out all Human Genome files, (no need to carry your genes around twice) the PG collection boils down to 2,493,924,672 bytes (zipped txt files only). If you allow for plucker files to be 20 % larger than pure zipped files, you have ~ 2,8 GB of data. Still plenty of room for games ... -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Sep 12 13:55:20 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon Sep 12 13:55:45 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] entire Gutenberg ebook collection on a flash drive Message-ID: has someone put all the .txt files on a single d.v.d. yet? if not, why not? -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050912/c40636aa/attachment.html From brandon at corruptedtruth.com Mon Sep 12 13:58:59 2005 From: brandon at corruptedtruth.com (Brandon Galbraith) Date: Mon Sep 12 13:59:12 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] entire Gutenberg ebook collection on a flash drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4325EC13.80002@corruptedtruth.com> http://www.gutenberg.org/cdproject/ -brandon Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > > has someone put all the .txt files on a single d.v.d. yet? > > if not, why not? > > -bowerbird > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050912/94d715a9/attachment.html From cannona at fireantproductions.com Mon Sep 12 14:06:45 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Mon Sep 12 14:12:45 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] entire Gutenberg ebook collection on a flash drive In-Reply-To: <4325EC13.80002@corruptedtruth.com> References: <4325EC13.80002@corruptedtruth.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050912160622.044c0f10@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Or http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/pgiso/ At 03:58 PM 9/12/2005, you wrote: >http://www.gutenberg.org/cdproject/ > >-brandon > >Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: >> >>has someone put all the .txt files on a single d.v.d. yet? >> >>if not, why not? >> >>-bowerbird >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>gutvol-d mailing list >>gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >>http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDJe9KI7J99hVZuJcRAg13AJ9xfUoK9spYF/sIgtSqVCrY2mThpQCgvTz6 supytQ5CVe85Kz6HdSeKs/8= =Tosr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cannona at fireantproductions.com Mon Sep 12 14:12:07 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Mon Sep 12 14:12:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] entire Gutenberg ebook collection on a flash drive In-Reply-To: <4325D29C.8000209@perathoner.de> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050912131554.020a1620@mail.fireantproductions.com> <4325D29C.8000209@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050912160749.044d87d8@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 02:10 PM 9/12/2005, you wrote: >Old news, 2 GB flash chips have been around for quite a while ... and >Wikipedia is already distributing on flash cards. I know that there are flash cards with 2GB capacities, but I was under the impression that the individual flash memory chips were not yet up to 2GB each. I think that was the news behind the article. Basically they were talking about what would happen if you put 16 of them together. That's cool that wikipedia is doing that. I didn't know. >If you take one zipped txt file from all PG books that have txt files, the >lot of it will go onto two 2 GB flash cards. > >By the time the first 4 GB flash cards come out, (and by the time I'll >have thrown out all copyrighted books and all the books that I feel only a >cruel and impish fate has wrenched away from the deserved oblivion,) I'll >certainly build a `Pocket-PG'. This has been on my list for a long time. > >I wonder if M$ will sue over "Pocket-PG" :-) Probably, but I look forward to it all the same. :) Sincerely Aaron Cannon >-- >Marcello Perathoner >webmaster@gutenberg.org > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDJe9MI7J99hVZuJcRAmliAKDw4byM/Im5aROh8oAPPlXKI2FO9wCfVRUW dy1qRbmBN2JQp40JpVscGuU= =gQua -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Sep 12 14:57:23 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon Sep 12 14:57:38 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] entire Gutenberg ebook collection on a flash drive Message-ID: <12c.65f0b7d8.305753c3@aol.com> brandon said: > http://www.gutenberg.org/cdproject/ that d.v.d. has less than 10,000 e-texts on it. it was up-to-date in december of 2003, when i helped michael pass out copies of it in berkeley, but it's outdated now, to the tune of 7,000 files. considering its capacity, the c.d. is phenomenal. *** aaron said: > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/pgiso/ well, that u.r.l. seems to be timing out right now. perhaps it's because i put in "1-17000" as a range of .txt files for it to fetch, which might've overwhelmed it. at any rate, since i would think this might be a relatively common request, it might be nice to provide a constantly updated version of it, without pestering that iso-creator... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050912/b8b3f7ba/attachment.html From cannona at fireantproductions.com Mon Sep 12 18:25:39 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Mon Sep 12 18:31:31 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] entire Gutenberg ebook collection on a flash drive In-Reply-To: <12c.65f0b7d8.305753c3@aol.com> References: <12c.65f0b7d8.305753c3@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050912201605.0208e9a8@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 04:57 PM 9/12/2005, you wrote: >that d.v.d. has less than 10,000 e-texts on it. >it was up-to-date in december of 2003, when i >helped michael pass out copies of it in berkeley, >but it's outdated now, to the tune of 7,000 files. True, but stay tuned. It will be updated soon, now that we have the iso creator up to date. Possibly the CD as well. >considering its capacity, the c.d. is phenomenal. Not really. A lot more could be on there if we had added ZIP files instead of uncompressed text, but that wasn't really the point. >*** > >aaron said: > > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/pgiso/ > >well, that u.r.l. seems to be timing out right now. > >perhaps it's because i put in "1-17000" as a range of >.txt files for it to fetch, which might've overwhelmed it. Yeah. It can tend to time out on huge groups of books. Until we get that fixed (if it can be fixed) I'd recommend feeding it smaller chunks of requests, like 1-5000, and then 5001-10000. Otherwise you will end up waiting a long long time, and depending on your browser and other factors, may end up timing out completely. We will have an FAQ up there in a couple days which will answer such questions. >at any rate, since i would think this might be a relatively >common request, it might be nice to provide a constantly >updated version of it, without pestering that iso-creator... You're probably right and I imagine that that will be the case eventually. Sincerely Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDJivsI7J99hVZuJcRAtJjAKDBppX9zJUOF1rhdp6RuFsax3KFmACgunAm fHtndpUyGljVILI9H/lsZF4= =QhaR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cannona at fireantproductions.com Mon Sep 12 18:29:54 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Mon Sep 12 18:31:35 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What the Hack?! and other conferences next week In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050912011853.03e5a610@bisinc.us> References: <20050911173319.GA28144@pglaf.org> <42E42405.32070.11B1840@localhost> <42FCD480.15055.7322F5@localhost> <20050911173319.GA28144@pglaf.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20050912011853.03e5a610@bisinc.us> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050912202710.034ae210@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I don't know about PG adding more audio files. I'll let the people who are smarter than me decide that one. However, you can snag the mp3 file at http://www.aaronandgabby.com/pg.mp3 . If you want to stream it, then just drop that link directly into your mp3 player, assuming it supports streaming mp3 files. Whatever you're going to do though, do it soon. I don't plan on leaving the file up there for more than a week. Sincerely Aaron Cannon At 03:22 AM 9/12/2005, you wrote: >Hello. I am blind so the video does me no good at all obviously. Yes, I >would really like to hear just the mp3 audio of a lot of the >presentations. There seems to be another done by Greg Newby on the same >page. Also, why not upload the presentations to the Internet Archive >since the files have a CC license? I think they generate mp3 from the mp4 >anyway. Just the audio would be very appreciated. Why not post just the >audio to PG? You could actually post both but the huge video file might >deter people with limited disk space or slow connections. I think it >would be nice to see more audio of various sorts being posted anyway. > >At 06:19 PM 9/11/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>>The answer is: >>> http://rehash.whatthehack.org >>> >>>The files are very big. >> >>If anyone on dialup or a slow connection would like to hear the >>presentation, please let me know and I can put it up as a small mp3 or >>windows media file if the video is important to you. >> >>Aaron Cannon > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDJivuI7J99hVZuJcRAucgAKCGY1rBGsJwYqMQZV8joBQapi3oiACeNCsO 6uPI5/GdC2XGjy/7U4WHCAc= =zRa4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From JBuck814366460 at aol.com Mon Sep 12 19:28:27 2005 From: JBuck814366460 at aol.com (Jared Buck) Date: Mon Sep 12 19:28:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] entire Gutenberg ebook collection on a flash drive In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050912201605.0208e9a8@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <12c.65f0b7d8.305753c3@aol.com> <6.2.1.2.0.20050912201605.0208e9a8@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <4326394B.9040609@aol.com> Aaron Cannon wrote on 9/12/2005, 6:25 PM: > We will have an FAQ up there in a couple days which will answer such > questions. Yes, we will :) I am helping out with the FAQ and questions and will be working on an HTML version of the original text that Aaron and I did. I would think we can have it up on the ISO Creator site at some point this weekend. That, of course, is Aaron's call. Jared From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Sep 12 22:20:38 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon Sep 12 22:21:03 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] entire Gutenberg ebook collection on a flash drive Message-ID: <62.5cee185b.3057bba6@aol.com> aaron said: > Not really.? A lot more could be on there > if we had added ZIP files instead of uncompressed text, > but that wasn't really the point. and the point -- as it was -- was quite phenomenal. although the website says differently, if i remember, i believe i counted some 3,000 e-texts on that c.d. now, since plain-text compresses greatly when zipped, i would love to see a c.d. full of zipped text-files as well. i'd especially love it if they were all in z.m.l. format... ;+) > You're probably right and > I imagine that that will be the case eventually. cool! -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050913/976f8df8/attachment.html From gbnewby at pglaf.org Mon Sep 12 22:47:14 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Mon Sep 12 22:47:16 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] entire Gutenberg ebook collection on a flash drive In-Reply-To: <62.5cee185b.3057bba6@aol.com> References: <62.5cee185b.3057bba6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050913054714.GA17254@pglaf.org> On Tue, Sep 13, 2005 at 01:20:38AM -0400, Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > aaron said: > > Not really.? A lot more could be on there > > if we had added ZIP files instead of uncompressed text, > > but that wasn't really the point. > > and the point -- as it was -- was quite phenomenal. > although the website says differently, if i remember, > i believe i counted some 3,000 e-texts on that c.d. #10802 is a DVD, all zipped, with about 9400 eBooks. From December 2004. #11802 is a CD, not zipped, with "best of" selections (lot of HTML, too). about 960 eBooks from August 2003 There's a new DVD image, but it needs some tweaking still: 5100 eBooks, unzipped, incorporating the Best Of (with updates) plus most of the rest of our HTML, plus lots more favorites. This is not ready for widespread distribution (it mistakenly has some copyrighted stuff on it), but you can grab it here: ftp://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/pub/gbn/pgjun05.iso One goal of the new ISO builder software is for people to save and "publish" their favorite collections. Another is to easily facilitate "updates" to a particular collection. BTW, the tool is telling me that all zip/txt files add up to 116% of a DVD (about 5.24GB). That will fit on a dual layer DVD, but won't quite fit on a single-layer. I'll be working with Craig to speed things up during the selection process (there are some MySQL optimizations he didn't use *). Ultimately, to build the ISO, *all* of the files need to be read from disk, then written to the new ISO file. So, for a large ISO file, this can take while (i.e., over 20 minutes for a regular DVD image). We'll be adding some common sense instructions (such as, don't just add every eBook -- you're better off simply using rsync to download what you need), tutorials, examples, etc. before this goes production. I'm planning to demo it as part of the StorCloud competition at the SuperComputing conference (Seattle November 12-18). -- Greg * Everyone who wants to criticize use of MySQL, bite your tongue, get the source from Craig, and do your own implementation. You can even set it up on snowy! From tb at baechler.net Mon Sep 12 23:03:18 2005 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Mon Sep 12 23:03:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What the Hack?! and other conferences next week In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050912202710.034ae210@mail.fireantproductions. com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050912011853.03e5a610@bisinc.us> <20050911173319.GA28144@pglaf.org> <42E42405.32070.11B1840@localhost> <42FCD480.15055.7322F5@localhost> <20050911173319.GA28144@pglaf.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20050912011853.03e5a610@bisinc.us> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050912225936.10345960@bisinc.us> Hello. Thank you very much for putting that file up for download. I got it. For anyone else who wants it, I suggest using the following url instead. It will save bandwidth on the server and hopefully provide faster download speeds. It's transparent to the web browser but this method won't work well with streaming in an mp3 player. You can add .nyud.net:8090 to any url and this method will work. For more information, look at http://coralcdn.org/. http://www.aaronandgabby.com.nyud.net:8090/pg.mp3 At 08:29 PM 9/12/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I don't know about PG adding more audio files. I'll let the people who are >smarter than me decide that one. However, you can snag the mp3 file at >http://www.aaronandgabby.com/pg.mp3 . If you want to stream it, then just >drop that link directly into your mp3 player, assuming it supports >streaming mp3 files. Whatever you're going to do though, do it soon. I >don't plan on leaving the file up there for more than a week. > > >Sincerely >Aaron Cannon From gbnewby at pglaf.org Mon Sep 12 23:14:06 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Mon Sep 12 23:14:07 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] SF author thinking of donating rights to PG (gutvol-d Digest, Vol 14, Issue 9) In-Reply-To: <4325C67D.7090409@novomail.net> References: <20050908154357.DB9ED8C8D6@pglaf.org> <4325C67D.7090409@novomail.net> Message-ID: <20050913061406.GB17254@pglaf.org> (I'll leave the whole message for context, but am only responding to a few points. People should read the howto at http://gutenberg.org/howto/scopy-howto , and the "about us" FAQ items at http://gutenberg.org/about for longer essays on some philosophy etc.) On Mon, Sep 12, 2005 at 12:18:37PM -0600, Lee Passey wrote: > Robert Shimmin wrote: > > >Andrew Sly wrote: > > > >>My recollection from the last time this was mentioned > >>is that PG has had a few authors causually mention ideas > >>like this over the years, but no one has actually gone > >>ahead with it yet. I gather it would require some formal > >>written statement, legally relinquishing copyright at > >>a certain date, or under certain conditions (perhaps > >>such as being out of print for a certain number of years.) > >>I could understand most authors being reluctant to > >>do that. > > > >They don't have to do that. They merely have to license PG with > >perpetual, non-exclusive, world-wide rights to distribute the book on > >a royalty-free basis. See the FAQ, question V.71. > > > >http://www.gutenberg.org/faq/V-71 > > > >-- RS > > > Following the recommendations made in the FAQ may satisfy Project > Gutenberg's requirements, but in may not satisfy the author's. If you > look at the language in the FAQ you will see that a this type of a > license grants to Project Gutenberg the right to make and distribute > copies of a book (presumably; the proposed language is a little unclear > on this point). It does not grant to anyone who obtains a copy from > Project Gutenberg the right to _re_-distribute the book. > > Now, pretty much everyone understands that Project Gutenberg is not > really an archive. The provenance of the e-texts it distributes is > uncertain, editorial changes are undocumented, and as a result of the > focus on over-simplified text "many things that should not have been > forgotten have been lost." The true role of Project Gutenberg has rather > been to reduce the barriers to access for a large number of classic > texts. The notion that texts downloaded from Project Gutenberg cannot be > shared seems to be antithetical to goal of making e-texts accessible. > > On a somewhat unrelated note, I have heard anecdotes of people who have > downloaded PG e-text and then actually gone out and _purchased_ > commercial electronic versions of the same text in the hope (sometimes > vain) that the commercial version would provide a better reading experience. > > If I were an author hoping to preserve my work well into the future, I > would be sure that 1. the grant of privilege would include rights of > redistribution and 2. the work could not be modified in any way that > would remove provenance, metadata, or semanticaly significant markup > (such as logical emphasis). The Creative Commons non-commercial, > no-derivative-works licence actual statisfies both of these goals well, > and I note that Charles Stross, the author about whom this thread > started, has actually released his latest novel in electronic form using > just such a license (http://www.accelerando.org/book/). You are taking a binary world, and trying to add gradiations. The *only* thing we track, and the *only* difference in our "small print" license is to say that an item is copyrighted. It's either copyrighted or public domain. The *** START OF and *** END OF tags are intended to clearly delineate the end of the PG header & license, and the start of the item which is "wrapped" in that license. It is perfectly acceptable, and often happens, that a copyrighted eBook will have its own license. We have stuff with permission statements (pre-dating CreativeCommons), with CC licenses, with GPL, and probably a few other things. These are perfectly compatible -- just think of "copyright" as a label, and our "license" as a wrapper. If an author provides Project Gutenberg with a copyrighted work, that work can include its own license. > The real question is how Project Gutenberg choses to deal with works > which are not public domain and to which a specific license grant has > not been made to Project Gutenberg, but which _are_ freely distributable > via a Creative Commons license. As I read the CC license there is > nothing there which would prevent PG from simply taking such works and > adding them to its catalog (although it may be unlawful to add the > inconsequential Project Gutenberg boilerplate). This is true, if we desired such works, and they met our collection criteria (especially formatting). And, in fact, we often take such works. All it takes is a volunteer with the initiative to do the work. > On the other hand, there was some discussion here last month about > whether or not PG would be willing to accept into its catalog scholarly > annotations of existing classical text already part of its collection. > The answer seemed to be that it would not, apparently based on the fear > that Project Gutenberg might become a forum for any splinter group > seeking to promote a special agenda (e.g., a commentary on _The Voyage > of the Beagle_ by someone promoting "intelligent design" as a scientific > theory). I believe there is some wisdom in this position. But it does > raise the question about what to do when someone with an entirely new > work wants to distribute it via Project Gutenberg. Perhaps the answer > should be that Project Gutenberg will only accept new works which 1. > have an existing publication history through a non-vanity press, and 2. > can be freely distributed, and re-distributed, at least > non-commercially, and that Project Gutenberg will only catalog and > distribute such books at the request of someone _other than_ the author. Addressed in scopy-howto. More: We're not a vanity press or a blog -- there are plenty already. Also, we're not a place for works in progress -- we just don't have staffing to apply editorial changes as a contemporary work evolves. > It may be that Project Gutenberg will want to limit itself to digitizing > and popularizing only Public Domain texts that are no longer current, > and leave to other organizations, such as the Internet Archive, the role > of archiving current texts. There's no "itself," there is just "we." For the most part, it has been very clear to me that the majority of volunteers are mainly (or only) interested in digitizing & preserving older public domain literature. Of the hundreds of copyrighted eBooks, I've done the posting work on nearly all of them since the year 2000. I, personally, would be very happy to see a spin-off PG project to address contemporary works better -- perhaps similarly to how the IA does it. In the meantime, you are right that the barriers to entry into the "main" PG collection are fairly high. As to how to make a spin-off, see the "about" FAQ items mentioned above. -- Greg From sly at victoria.tc.ca Mon Sep 12 23:19:20 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Mon Sep 12 23:19:39 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What the Hack?! and other conferences next week In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050912202710.034ae210@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <20050911173319.GA28144@pglaf.org> <42E42405.32070.11B1840@localhost> <42FCD480.15055.7322F5@localhost> <20050911173319.GA28144@pglaf.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20050912011853.03e5a610@bisinc.us> <6.2.1.2.0.20050912202710.034ae210@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Aaron Cannon wrote: > > I don't know about PG adding more audio files. I'll let the people who are > smarter than me decide that one. However, you can snag the mp3 file at I'll make a point here that the audio files we do have have turned out to be a bit of a pain from the catalog viewpoint. There have been various error reports about them being incomplete, having misnamed files, or otherwise lacking. Here is an excerpt from a recent email: > >It seems to me that starting with file 8 of the audio book "A Study in > >Scarlet by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle" all the following files belong to a > >different book. Or am I mistaking?? > > >From my point of view, I would prefer that PG had just stayed with text, and left audio files up to some other project that could handle them better. Andrew From cannona at fireantproductions.com Tue Sep 13 06:09:39 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Tue Sep 13 06:18:19 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] entire Gutenberg ebook collection on a flash drive In-Reply-To: <20050913054714.GA17254@pglaf.org> References: <62.5cee185b.3057bba6@aol.com> <20050913054714.GA17254@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913080148.0208d900@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 12:47 AM 9/13/2005, you wrote: >#10802 is a DVD, all zipped, with about 9400 eBooks. From December 2004. >#11802 is a CD, not zipped, with "best of" selections (lot of HTML, too). > about 960 eBooks from August 2003 Actually, the total title count on that one is just above 600, but close enough. >BTW, the tool is telling me that all zip/txt files add up >to 116% of a DVD (about 5.24GB). That will fit on a dual >layer DVD, but won't quite fit on a single-layer. If you remove the human genome files, it will. I did it yesterday, but ran in to difficulties on my end before I was able to save it; Not the systems fault. >I'll be working with Craig to speed things up during the selection >process (there are some MySQL optimizations he didn't use *). Ultimately, >to build the ISO, *all* of the files need to be read from disk, then >written to the new ISO file. So, for a large ISO file, this can take >while (i.e., over 20 minutes for a regular DVD image). Not to mention if a lot of people are using it at the same time. :) Anyway, I know its a lot faster than it was. Craig has done an awesome job! >We'll be adding some common sense instructions (such as, don't >just add every eBook -- you're better off simply using rsync to >download what you need), tutorials, examples, etc. before this >goes production. I'm planning to demo it as part of the StorCloud >competition at the SuperComputing conference (Seattle November 12-18). > -- Greg I'll hurry up on the documentation then. We're just making some minor edits. You can use what you like and throw out the rest. It will be in an FAQ type format. Sincerely Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDJtGcI7J99hVZuJcRAiccAKCwH4Cm5SLIzE8iBZcYxN9pAuyPSgCeNWV0 cya7AizktT2sOjxdjfvcyGU= =anda -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cannona at fireantproductions.com Tue Sep 13 10:00:43 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Tue Sep 13 10:00:53 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Does anyone have a list of the EBook numbers which were done by Distributed Proofers? The reason I ask is because it might be kind of nice to feed that list to the new ISO creator to compile a DPDVD. Just a thought. I know it's been talked about, but I haven't heard if it has been done yet. Sincerely Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDJwXHI7J99hVZuJcRAttGAJwMWjMXRLvb08fWGfVzbAawzKPU2QCfUTtJ MgiJlLn+brt6u3DJ5LhCdBU= =ZG0o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From joshua at hutchinson.net Tue Sep 13 10:47:10 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Tue Sep 13 10:47:18 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers Message-ID: <20050913174711.75F124F673@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> Here is a list: http://www.pgdp.net/c/list_etexts.php?x=g&sort=4 You'll need to run a quick regex script to extra just the numbers, though. Josh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Cannon" To: gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 12:00:43 -0500 > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Does anyone have a list of the EBook numbers which were done by Distributed > Proofers? The reason I ask is because it might be kind of nice to feed > that list to the new ISO creator to compile a DPDVD. Just a thought. I > know it's been talked about, but I haven't heard if it has been done yet. > > > Sincerely > Aaron Cannon > > > - -- > E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com > Skype: cannona > MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 > Comment: Key available from all major key servers. > > iD8DBQFDJwXHI7J99hVZuJcRAttGAJwMWjMXRLvb08fWGfVzbAawzKPU2QCfUTtJ > MgiJlLn+brt6u3DJ5LhCdBU= > =ZG0o > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From sly at victoria.tc.ca Tue Sep 13 10:58:49 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Tue Sep 13 10:58:59 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Looking for help from German speaker In-Reply-To: <4325BBA2.9040503@perathoner.de> References: <4325BBA2.9040503@perathoner.de> Message-ID: Thanks Marcello. My first thought was to send this question deirectly to you, but I thought I'd send it out as a general request instead as you might be rather busy already. No, I will not "assume" that these two are the same. Making assumptions is not a good idea in this kind of case. If there is uncertainty, I would say leave them separate. I take it the line you quote below does give further evidence of this person's identity? Andrew On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Andrew Sly wrote: > > > I have found two author records in the PG catalog that should > > probably be combined, but I'd like a German speaker to help > > confirm that. > > > > Is the author of PG#15891, Velimirovitch, Nicola, the same > > person as Velimirovic, Nikolai? > > > > Description of this author can be found here: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Velimirovi%C4%87 > > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaj_Velimirovi%C4%87 > > I think we can assume its the same person. > > "Bis 1908 studierte er an der altkatholischen Fakult?t der Universit?t > Bern, wo er die Doktorw?rde in Philosophie erlangte." > > He studied philosophy in Berne until 1908, where he took his degree. > > > > From ciesiels at bigpond.net.au Tue Sep 13 10:19:57 2005 From: ciesiels at bigpond.net.au (Michael Ciesielski) Date: Tue Sep 13 10:59:06 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <43270A3D.8080802@bigpond.net.au> Aaron Cannon ? ecrit: > Does anyone have a list of the EBook numbers which were done by > Distributed > Proofers? The reason I ask is because it might be kind of nice to feed > that list to the new ISO creator to compile a DPDVD. Just a thought. I > know it's been talked about, but I haven't heard if it has been done > yet. http://www.pgdp.org/~mikeyc21/books_processed_by_dp.txt Fondest regards, Michael From marcello at perathoner.de Tue Sep 13 11:19:09 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue Sep 13 11:19:14 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Looking for help from German speaker In-Reply-To: References: <4325BBA2.9040503@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <4327181D.5070201@perathoner.de> Andrew Sly wrote: > My first thought was to send this question deirectly to > you, but I thought I'd send it out as a general request > instead as you might be rather busy already. > > No, I will not "assume" that these two are the same. > Making assumptions is not a good idea in this kind > of case. If there is uncertainty, I would say leave > them separate. > > I take it the line you quote below does give further evidence > of this person's identity? The title page of one of the books declares it to be a doctoral dissertation by Dr. Whatshisname, Berne 1910. Wikipedia says this guy actually studied in Berne around that date, the names are very similar, and the topic of the dissertation is Serbia ... I think we can safely assume it is the same person. >>"Bis 1908 studierte er an der altkatholischen Fakult?t der Universit?t >>Bern, wo er die Doktorw?rde in Philosophie erlangte." >> >>He studied philosophy in Berne until 1908, where he took his degree. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From fvandrog at scripps.edu Tue Sep 13 11:21:18 2005 From: fvandrog at scripps.edu (Frank van Drogen) Date: Tue Sep 13 11:39:19 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Looking for help from German speaker In-Reply-To: References: <4325BBA2.9040503@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <6.2.0.8.0.20050913112032.02bdd6b0@mail.scripps.edu> He's the same, the peolple from DP-EU/Rastko should be much more familair with him and how to spel his name correctely. Frank >Thanks Marcello. > >My first thought was to send this question deirectly to >you, but I thought I'd send it out as a general request >instead as you might be rather busy already. > >No, I will not "assume" that these two are the same. >Making assumptions is not a good idea in this kind >of case. If there is uncertainty, I would say leave >them separate. > >I take it the line you quote below does give further evidence >of this person's identity? > >Andrew > >On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > > > Andrew Sly wrote: > > > > > I have found two author records in the PG catalog that should > > > probably be combined, but I'd like a German speaker to help > > > confirm that. > > > > > > Is the author of PG#15891, Velimirovitch, Nicola, the same > > > person as Velimirovic, Nikolai? > > > > > > Description of this author can be found here: > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Velimirovi%C4%87 > > > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaj_Velimirovi%C4%87 > > > > I think we can assume its the same person. > > > > "Bis 1908 studierte er an der altkatholischen Fakult?t der Universit?t > > Bern, wo er die Doktorw?rde in Philosophie erlangte." > > > > He studied philosophy in Berne until 1908, where he took his degree. > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From prosfilaes at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 11:56:21 2005 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Tue Sep 13 11:56:31 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Looking for help from German speaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6d99d1fd05091311562ba3c9c7@mail.gmail.com> On 9/12/05, Andrew Sly wrote: > > I have found two author records in the PG catalog that should > probably be combined, but I'd like a German speaker to help > confirm that. > > Is the author of PG#15891, Velimirovitch, Nicola, the same > person as Velimirovic, Nikolai? > > Description of this author can be found here: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Velimirovi%C4%87 > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaj_Velimirovi%C4%87 The DP-EU description lists his name as Nikolaj Velimirovi?, ep. (1880-1956), and I seem to recall the project notes listed him as a Serbian bishop. From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Tue Sep 13 12:17:45 2005 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Tue Sep 13 12:18:57 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Nikolai Velimirović Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050913/cdec00a2/attachment.html From blondeel at clipper.ens.fr Tue Sep 13 11:55:14 2005 From: blondeel at clipper.ens.fr (Sebastien Blondeel) Date: Tue Sep 13 12:29:32 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <20050913185514.GA7409@clipper.ens.fr> On Tue, Sep 13, 2005 at 12:00:43PM -0500, Aaron Cannon wrote: > Does anyone have a list of the EBook numbers which were done by Distributed > Proofers? A thing I did can be used to answer that question. I try to maintain a list of all French language books from various sources (and I am presently in the process of integrating a much bigger one). We just had the case of a book just published on another source in June and being worked on in PGDP! Of course my programs can be adapted for other (or all) languages. I just got my project accepted under the name "pgdp" on savannah.gnu.org I guess I can publish on the CVS there the code I use and write its documentation for the various tools I am developing around PG and PGDP not sexy website: http://www.eleves.ens.fr/home/blondeel/PGDP/ and for this topic, specifically: http://www.eleves.ens.fr/home/blondeel/PGDP/catalog/ From brandon at corruptedtruth.com Tue Sep 13 15:13:48 2005 From: brandon at corruptedtruth.com (Brandon Galbraith) Date: Tue Sep 13 15:14:06 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What the Hack?! and other conferences next week In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050912225936.10345960@bisinc.us> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050912011853.03e5a610@bisinc.us> <20050911173319.GA28144@pglaf.org> <42E42405.32070.11B1840@localhost> <42FCD480.15055.7322F5@localhost> <20050911173319.GA28144@pglaf.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20050912011853.03e5a610@bisinc.us> <5.2.0.9.0.20050912225936.10345960@bisinc.us> Message-ID: <43274F1C.4040501@corruptedtruth.com> All, Feel free to use this link. Bandwidth usage shouldn't be an issue, and I will leave the file up there indefinately. http://www.corruptedtruth.com/pg/pg.mp3 -brandon Tony Baechler wrote: > Hello. Thank you very much for putting that file up for download. I > got it. For anyone else who wants it, I suggest using the following > url instead. It will save bandwidth on the server and hopefully > provide faster download speeds. It's transparent to the web browser > but this method won't work well with streaming in an mp3 player. You > can add .nyud.net:8090 to any url and this method will work. For more > information, look at http://coralcdn.org/. > > http://www.aaronandgabby.com.nyud.net:8090/pg.mp3 > > At 08:29 PM 9/12/2005 -0500, you wrote: > >> I don't know about PG adding more audio files. I'll let the people >> who are >> smarter than me decide that one. However, you can snag the mp3 file at >> http://www.aaronandgabby.com/pg.mp3 . If you want to stream it, then >> just >> drop that link directly into your mp3 player, assuming it supports >> streaming mp3 files. Whatever you're going to do though, do it soon. I >> don't plan on leaving the file up there for more than a week. >> >> >> Sincerely >> Aaron Cannon > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > From sly at victoria.tc.ca Tue Sep 13 15:25:43 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Tue Sep 13 15:25:55 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Looking for help from German speaker In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.8.0.20050913112032.02bdd6b0@mail.scripps.edu> References: <4325BBA2.9040503@perathoner.de> <6.2.0.8.0.20050913112032.02bdd6b0@mail.scripps.edu> Message-ID: Thanks all for your replies. My attention came to this author as one name I might want to add to the catalog in cyrillic. Frank's comment below reminds me of one my ideas that I have "to return to at some future point". Often the people involved in digitizing a particular text have additional knowledge that would be nice to have to have associated with the text in some way, that would be of value for catalogers. Any additional ideas along this line? Andrew On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Frank van Drogen wrote: > > He's the same, the peolple from DP-EU/Rastko should be much more familair > with him and how to spel his name correctely. > > Frank > > > > > >Thanks Marcello. > > > >My first thought was to send this question deirectly to > >you, but I thought I'd send it out as a general request > >instead as you might be rather busy already. > > > >No, I will not "assume" that these two are the same. > >Making assumptions is not a good idea in this kind > >of case. If there is uncertainty, I would say leave > >them separate. > > > >I take it the line you quote below does give further evidence > >of this person's identity? > > > >Andrew > > > >On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > > > > > Andrew Sly wrote: > > > > > > > I have found two author records in the PG catalog that should > > > > probably be combined, but I'd like a German speaker to help > > > > confirm that. > > > > > > > > Is the author of PG#15891, Velimirovitch, Nicola, the same > > > > person as Velimirovic, Nikolai? > > > > > > > > Description of this author can be found here: > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Velimirovi%C4%87 > > > > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaj_Velimirovi%C4%87 > > > > > > I think we can assume its the same person. > > > > > > "Bis 1908 studierte er an der altkatholischen Fakult?t der Universit?t > > > Bern, wo er die Doktorw?rde in Philosophie erlangte." > > > > > > He studied philosophy in Berne until 1908, where he took his degree. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >gutvol-d mailing list > >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > From cannona at fireantproductions.com Tue Sep 13 17:10:50 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Tue Sep 13 17:11:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers In-Reply-To: <43270A3D.8080802@bigpond.net.au> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> <43270A3D.8080802@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913190715.04428830@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Well, the complete collection of zip files from DP total 5GB. So, it would be too big for a dvd-5, but might fit on a dvd-9. It should be possible to fit the first 5000 books on a dvd-5 however. Sincerely Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDJ2qcI7J99hVZuJcRApb3AKD5qvZq0A0Dg63k3dZAVmFSfqa3sQCgzRwP MKNCpWbNi+gFQaZdvPpnang= =+xNz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From blondeel at clipper.ens.fr Wed Sep 14 02:27:20 2005 From: blondeel at clipper.ens.fr (Sebastien Blondeel) Date: Wed Sep 14 02:27:46 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913190715.04428830@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> <43270A3D.8080802@bigpond.net.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050913190715.04428830@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <20050914092718.GA7251@clipper.ens.fr> On Tue, Sep 13, 2005 at 07:10:50PM -0500, Aaron Cannon wrote: > Well, the complete collection of zip files from DP total 5GB. So, it would > be too big for a dvd-5, but might fit on a dvd-9. Suggestion: see how much better other compression algorithms do (eg: bzip2) The binaries can be included on the DVD for various systems, they are small in comparison. Samely, for XML books (let's assume in the end all books will be XML'ed), just consider the source XML version (bzipped); XML to other format tools can be included on the DVD too. From joshua at hutchinson.net Wed Sep 14 06:05:45 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Wed Sep 14 06:05:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Encoding statement in HTML PG Header Message-ID: <20050914130545.314D42F93F@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> This refers to the standard PGheader information we include at the beginning of all of our documents. For instance: Title: The Rejuvenation of Aunt Mary Author: Anne Warner Release Date: May 6, 2005 [eBook #15775] Language: English Character set encoding: ISO-8859-1 *** The character set encoding line makes sense for text files. However, for HTML files it begins to make a little less sense. First of all, an HTML file usually contains an encoding line in the HTML header itself. But, this information just refers to how the HTML file is encoding, not necessarily what character set is actually displayed in the browser. For instance, a HTML document encoded in ISO-8859-1 can still contain all sorts of UTF-8 characters. You just have to escape them out (&#xxxx) to get the browser to display the UTF-8 character. So, in that case, if we put a character set encoding line in the PGHeader, which do we use? The file itself is ISO-8859-1 ... but the characters displayed in your browser include UTF-8. Or vice versa ... if you create a HTML doc encoded in UTF-8, but it contains nothing by ASCII characters, which do you say in the PGHeader? My reason for asking this is because currently the TEI->HTML conversion doesn't list a character set encoding in the PGHeader. Should it? How should the automated system determine what to put there if we have that line? I'm looking for opinions and hopefully a consensus can be reached. Josh From hart at pglaf.org Wed Sep 14 08:43:53 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Wed Sep 14 08:43:55 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers In-Reply-To: <20050914092718.GA7251@clipper.ens.fr> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> <43270A3D.8080802@bigpond.net.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050913190715.04428830@mail.fireantproductions.com> <20050914092718.GA7251@clipper.ens.fr> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Sebastien Blondeel wrote: > On Tue, Sep 13, 2005 at 07:10:50PM -0500, Aaron Cannon wrote: >> Well, the complete collection of zip files from DP total 5GB. So, it would >> be too big for a dvd-5, but might fit on a dvd-9. > > Suggestion: see how much better other compression algorithms do (eg: > bzip2) The binaries can be included on the DVD for various systems, they > are small in comparison. I have some supercomputer time reserved for testing various compressions, so if anyone wants to send me any DVDs or their images, I can try to see how much we can pack onto a single $1 DVD. Michael From marcello at perathoner.de Wed Sep 14 09:11:42 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed Sep 14 09:11:51 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> <43270A3D.8080802@bigpond.net.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050913190715.04428830@mail.fireantproductions.com> <20050914092718.GA7251@clipper.ens.fr> Message-ID: <43284BBE.50602@perathoner.de> Michael Hart wrote: > I have some supercomputer time reserved for testing various compressions, > so if anyone wants to send me any DVDs or their images, I can try to see > how much we can pack onto a single $1 DVD. That's nice but it won't help much. The biggest savings we can get is by: 1. using bzip2 instead of zip 2. compressing more than one file at a time Ad 1. bzip2 is quite well known on linux systems. I don't know how well Windoze supports that. It may be a question of $$$ to Windoze users to get a decompressor. Ad 2. Compressing more than one file at a time makes for a smaller archives because a compressor always starts with a low compression rate and builds itself up along the way. The first KBs of a file have the worst compression rate. Also, the compression rate will drop drastically every time the characteristic of the uncompressed data changes. If you tar a whole lot of text and image files together, you get a better compression rate if you put all txt files first and all image files last instead of interleaving them. Arguably we can get the best compression rate if we tar all files of each file type together (all TXT files, all HTML files etc.) and bzip2 the tar files. But these huge files will be irksome to unpack. Alternatively we could pack the files in chunks of 100 books, carefully ordering the files in the tar, so all TXT files come first, then all HTML files etc. If we want to avoid sensible tools and formats for the sake of Windoze users we can get almost the same results by first zipping a lot of files with compression off and then zipping the zip file with compression on. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From nwolcott at dsdial.net Wed Sep 14 09:17:30 2005 From: nwolcott at dsdial.net (N Wolcott) Date: Wed Sep 14 09:20:24 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Fw: Clearance question - Mein Kampf Message-ID: <000c01c5b947$dd448900$d59495ce@gw98> Curiously the Fredonia edition of Mein Kampf, translated by James Murphy, is listed as "Currently, item can be shipped only within the U.S. ". This would seem to indicate no copyright in the US but perhaps copyright in EU. More grist for the mill. ----- Original Message ----- From: N Wolcott To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 11:18 AM Subject: Clearance question - Mein Kampf Why is it that PG maintains the fiction that MK is still in copyright when Fredonia is publishing a PD version? Obviously they know something we don't or haven't bothered to find out. Fredonia books are printed and distriibuted in the US. Fredonia has 1770 PD books listed on Amazon.com and University Press of the Pacific (Honolulu) have 3407, many of these post 1923. Fredonia in fact lists the source they are copying in their books. I have not examined any Pacific Press books yet. It would seem that PG would not be treading in dangerous waters by following the lead of these publishers. I agree that the fact that numerous copies of MK survive on the Internet is no reason to assume PD status, but hard copy books in quantity in the US are another matter which should bear some study. I have yet to see a book by these publishers where research does not show a presumption of PD status Perhaps PG if not "pushing " the envelope, should at least crawl inside it. N Wolcott nwolcott2@post.harvard.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050914/1c8abfb4/attachment-0001.html From brandon at corruptedtruth.com Wed Sep 14 09:20:50 2005 From: brandon at corruptedtruth.com (Brandon Galbraith) Date: Wed Sep 14 09:21:57 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers In-Reply-To: <43284BBE.50602@perathoner.de> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> <43270A3D.8080802@bigpond.net.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050913190715.04428830@mail.fireantproductions.com> <20050914092718.GA7251@clipper.ens.fr> <43284BBE.50602@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <43284DE2.6030507@corruptedtruth.com> Marcello, Perhaps compressing the entire disk and using an on-the-fly decryption system (like Knoppix uses) would help. -brandon Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Michael Hart wrote: > >> I have some supercomputer time reserved for testing various >> compressions, >> so if anyone wants to send me any DVDs or their images, I can try to see >> how much we can pack onto a single $1 DVD. > > > That's nice but it won't help much. > > > The biggest savings we can get is by: > > 1. using bzip2 instead of zip > > 2. compressing more than one file at a time > > > Ad 1. > > bzip2 is quite well known on linux systems. I don't know how well > Windoze supports that. It may be a question of $$$ to Windoze users to > get a decompressor. > > Ad 2. > > Compressing more than one file at a time makes for a smaller archives > because a compressor always starts with a low compression rate and > builds itself up along the way. The first KBs of a file have the worst > compression rate. > > Also, the compression rate will drop drastically every time the > characteristic of the uncompressed data changes. If you tar a whole > lot of text and image files together, you get a better compression > rate if you put all txt files first and all image files last instead > of interleaving them. > > > Arguably we can get the best compression rate if we tar all files of > each file type together (all TXT files, all HTML files etc.) and bzip2 > the tar files. But these huge files will be irksome to unpack. > > Alternatively we could pack the files in chunks of 100 books, > carefully ordering the files in the tar, so all TXT files come first, > then all HTML files etc. > > If we want to avoid sensible tools and formats for the sake of Windoze > users we can get almost the same results by first zipping a lot of > files with compression off and then zipping the zip file with > compression on. > > > From nwolcott at dsdial.net Wed Sep 14 08:18:30 2005 From: nwolcott at dsdial.net (N Wolcott) Date: Wed Sep 14 09:23:04 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Clearance question - Mein Kampf Message-ID: <001b01c5b93f$b0bece20$d59495ce@gw98> Why is it that PG maintains the fiction that MK is still in copyright when Fredonia is publishing a PD version? Obviously they know something we don't or haven't bothered to find out. Fredonia books are printed and distriibuted in the US. Fredonia has 1770 PD books listed on Amazon.com and University Press of the Pacific (Honolulu) have 3407, many of these post 1923. Fredonia in fact lists the source they are copying in their books. I have not examined any Pacific Press books yet. It would seem that PG would not be treading in dangerous waters by following the lead of these publishers. I agree that the fact that numerous copies of MK survive on the Internet is no reason to assume PD status, but hard copy books in quantity in the US are another matter which should bear some study. I have yet to see a book by these publishers where research does not show a presumption of PD status Perhaps PG if not "pushing " the envelope, should at least crawl inside it. N Wolcott nwolcott2@post.harvard.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050914/799fe0f5/attachment.html From marcello at perathoner.de Wed Sep 14 09:43:12 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed Sep 14 09:43:21 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Encoding statement in HTML PG Header In-Reply-To: <20050914130545.314D42F93F@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20050914130545.314D42F93F@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <43285320.8050401@perathoner.de> Joshua Hutchinson wrote: > My reason for asking this is because currently the TEI->HTML > conversion doesn't list a character set encoding in the PGHeader. > Should it? How should the automated system determine what to put > there if we have that line? The encoding is already handled very well by the browser and we should not bother the user with things he does not need to know. But with Unicode we face a problem completely different than the character set encoding problem: the problem of character set coverage. With iso-8859-1 and its beggarly 256 characters we can be pretty sure the user has at least one font installed which contains all these characters. The browser will find this font and display the characters, even if running on a chinese PC. With Unicode we can be sure that all the fonts the user has installed, taken as a whole, don't cover the whole Unicode character set. There is no solution to this problem. If you use unicode characters in your text you are gambling on the user having an appropriate font installed. The only hint we could give to the user is, if he can reasonably expect his browser to render this file correctly. As we cannot know which fonts the user has installed, we can just print a list of the unicode blocks used in the file, like this: Unicode blocks: Basic Latin, Latin-1 Supplement, Bengali, Greek and Coptic, General Punctuation so a user who has no Bengali fonts will know some characters will not display. I think this will create more confusion than it solves and opt for leaving any character set encoding line out of the header in non TXT files. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From collin at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 14 10:20:50 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Wed Sep 14 10:04:31 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Clearance question - Mein Kampf In-Reply-To: <001b01c5b93f$b0bece20$d59495ce@gw98> Message-ID: <43287812.24755.155760B@localhost> On 14 Sep 2005, at 11:18, N Wolcott wrote: > Why is it that PG maintains the fiction that MK is still in copyright > when Fredonia is publishing a PD version? Obviously they know > something we don't or haven't bothered to find out. Fredonia books are > printed and distriibuted in the US. >From what I understand, after the war the state of Bavaria confiscated all of Adolf Hitler's properties, including any copyrights he owned. As the author of Mein Kampf, he owned the copyrights to that work. Copyright in the E.U. has since been "harmonized" to life+70. Leaving conspiracy theories aside, Hitler died in 1945, which means the book is burdened by copyright until 2016. I have no doubt many governments will think of something else to censor the book at that point--or they will simply cease to care and let art and nature run its course. This also means that in most countries in the world (mostly Life+50 regimes), Mein Kampf is indeed in the public domain, though it may be censored using different tools and on different grounds. Wikipedia claims that the Dutch and English situation is different; but does not explain the latter. In the case of the Netherlands, the Dutch government seized the copyrights and forbids publication on the grounds that the text incites hatred (which is a crime or a fellony over here in some cases). Whether Mein Kampf is burdened by copyright in the US depends on whether it was published there or not, IIRC. IANAL. This is not legal advice. Mein Kampf first appeared in Germany in 1925. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From hmacdougall at stny.rr.com Wed Sep 14 10:49:22 2005 From: hmacdougall at stny.rr.com (Hugh MacDougall) Date: Wed Sep 14 11:22:42 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Clearance question - Mein Kampf References: <001b01c5b93f$b0bece20$d59495ce@gw98> Message-ID: <011c01c5b954$a58586b0$331a1842@Hugh> My guess is that restrictions on the sale of Mein Kampf have nothing to do with copyright, but rather with the fact that a number of European countries (including, I believe, Germany) ban the possession of the book. Hugh MacDougall, Cooperstown, NY -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050914/96ec7fa7/attachment.html From cannona at fireantproductions.com Wed Sep 14 08:46:49 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Wed Sep 14 13:24:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers In-Reply-To: <20050914092718.GA7251@clipper.ens.fr> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> <43270A3D.8080802@bigpond.net.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050913190715.04428830@mail.fireantproductions.com> <20050914092718.GA7251@clipper.ens.fr> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914104352.0208e4b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 That's a possibility, but I don't think it really solves the problem. We would just be forcing an arbitrary number of ebooks onto a dvd. Even with a better compression algorithm, we would soon run into the same problem of not enough space. I think it makes more sense to compile a DVD containing the first 5000 books, and another containing the next 5000 or less. Other thoughts or opinions? Sincerely Aaron Cannon At 04:27 AM 9/14/2005, you wrote: >On Tue, Sep 13, 2005 at 07:10:50PM -0500, Aaron Cannon wrote: > > Well, the complete collection of zip files from DP total 5GB. So, it would > > be too big for a dvd-5, but might fit on a dvd-9. > >Suggestion: see how much better other compression algorithms do (eg: >bzip2) The binaries can be included on the DVD for various systems, they >are small in comparison. > >Samely, for XML books (let's assume in the end all books will be >XML'ed), just consider the source XML version (bzipped); XML to other >format tools can be included on the DVD too. >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDKIbeI7J99hVZuJcRAlFwAJ49wXJgREQyKnKMShtLcw+Wu/UO+ACcDkhk N7FGNK1FdlFMOts+4yfBf/Q= =DqL6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cannona at fireantproductions.com Wed Sep 14 13:23:04 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Wed Sep 14 13:24:04 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Wow! I just read the news letter for this week. It's been a few months since last time. How long has it been this way? When did it go from the news of Project Gutenberg to the blog of Michael Hart? How are quotes on politics relevant to the work of PG? Whether you agree with his politics or not, there are obviously going to be a lot of people who don't. What could have possibly made that seem like a good idea? Injecting such hot-button issues into the official Project Gutenberg newsletter gives the impression that we are a political organization and that we as volunteers support those views. Some volunteers might not be all that fond of that idea. What is our mission here? To give away books, or to give Michael Hart a platform from which to vent his non-ebook related political views? I have no problem with Michael Hart publishing his politics. I do have a problem with him publishing them on PG stationary. Sincerely Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDKIbgI7J99hVZuJcRAhrrAJwNbzqBoQO0ufNfzWBT1yQqDxZJ9gCg2NF7 r8HrKCUUSlbbWp6w7BQppPc= =lrFX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From traverso at dm.unipi.it Wed Sep 14 13:58:57 2005 From: traverso at dm.unipi.it (Carlo Traverso) Date: Wed Sep 14 13:43:09 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers In-Reply-To: <43284BBE.50602@perathoner.de> (message from Marcello Perathoner on Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:11:42 +0200) References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> <43270A3D.8080802@bigpond.net.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050913190715.04428830@mail.fireantproductions.com> <20050914092718.GA7251@clipper.ens.fr> <43284BBE.50602@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <200509142058.j8EKwvU06133@pico.dm.unipi.it> >>>>> "Marcello" == Marcello Perathoner writes: Marcello> bzip2 is quite well known on linux systems. I don't know Marcello> how well Windoze supports that. It may be a question of Marcello> $$$ to Windoze users to get a decompressor. bzip2 is freely available for windows: http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/bzip2.htm Carlo Traverso From walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 14 13:17:31 2005 From: walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl (Walter van Holst) Date: Wed Sep 14 13:49:05 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Clearance question - Mein Kampf In-Reply-To: <011c01c5b954$a58586b0$331a1842@Hugh> References: <001b01c5b93f$b0bece20$d59495ce@gw98> <011c01c5b954$a58586b0$331a1842@Hugh> Message-ID: <4328855B.5070504@xs4all.nl> Hugh MacDougall wrote: > My guess is that restrictions on the sale of Mein Kampf have > nothing to do with copyright, but rather with the fact that a number > of European countries (including, I believe, Germany) ban the > possession of the book. Posession is legal here, offering it for sale is illegal though. Some public libraries even carry it, but it may not be easy to borrow it. I doubt that this situation will last very long, however. Regards, Walter From cannona at fireantproductions.com Wed Sep 14 13:55:52 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Wed Sep 14 13:56:20 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers In-Reply-To: <200509142058.j8EKwvU06133@pico.dm.unipi.it> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> <43270A3D.8080802@bigpond.net.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050913190715.04428830@mail.fireantproductions.com> <20050914092718.GA7251@clipper.ens.fr> <43284BBE.50602@perathoner.de> <200509142058.j8EKwvU06133@pico.dm.unipi.it> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914155341.043aa118@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 03:58 PM 9/14/2005, you wrote: >bzip2 is freely available for windows: That's correct. However, I think that the better question to ask would be is it worth the added level of complexity for most users? For most of the people on this list, it is almost certainly no problem at all. However, for many others, it can be. Sincerely Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDKI5zI7J99hVZuJcRAmNPAKChU4memLjWvl10Uj8+ZWPTNoeoEACdE59T BlbUXhChuKaFdPLN2rXDsKs= =VKZL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jon at noring.name Wed Sep 14 13:56:42 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Wed Sep 14 13:57:55 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <1721972256.20050914145642@noring.name> Aaron wrote: > Wow! I just read the news letter for this week. It's been a few months > since last time. How long has it been this way? When did it go from the > news of Project Gutenberg to the blog of Michael Hart? How are quotes on > politics relevant to the work of PG? Whether you agree with his politics > or not, there are obviously going to be a lot of people who don't. I think Michael should setup a personal blog -- he has a lot of interesting viewpoints (some of which I agree with, others I don't) that should be shared on the public stage. > What could have possibly made that seem like a good idea? Injecting such > hot-button issues into the official Project Gutenberg newsletter gives the > impression that we are a political organization and that we as volunteers > support those views. Some volunteers might not be all that fond of that idea. > > What is our mission here? To give away books, or to give Michael Hart a > platform from which to vent his non-ebook related political views? > > I have no problem with Michael Hart publishing his politics. I do have a > problem with him publishing them on PG stationary. PGLAF is a 501(c)3 (so I surmise) and 501(c)3 status restricts the organization from direct political activity. For example, advocating that PG volunteers should vote for a particular candidate skirts close (at the minimum) to such disallowed political activity. I don't know what Michael said, but I think PGLAF, and all those who *may* speak for it in an official status on any forum, should avoid taking any political position (including how some law should be changed, such as copyright law) since that violates the "spirit" of 501(c)3, if not the letter. Certainly Michael has the right, wearing the hat of a private citizen and using his own forum and resources, to give his views. But as soon as he puts on the PG hat, then that drags PGLAF into it (the argument he is not on the PGLAF Board or its payroll, etc., is not sufficient -- PGLAF and all of PG's activities should avoid even the perception of political lobbying -- that's what 501(c)3 is all about.) What is really needed is to setup a separate organization devoted to the defense and rebuilding of the public domain -- somewhat like the NRA, it would be an "in your face" organization. It would seek the particular IRS non-profit status allowing political lobbying, which is not 501(c)3. Jon Noring From brandon at corruptedtruth.com Wed Sep 14 14:09:16 2005 From: brandon at corruptedtruth.com (Brandon Galbraith) Date: Wed Sep 14 14:09:37 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <1721972256.20050914145642@noring.name> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> <1721972256.20050914145642@noring.name> Message-ID: <4328917C.6080205@corruptedtruth.com> Jon, There should be a political "arm" of PG, but have it be a seperate entity. Such entity falls under IRS section 527 (which is why they're called 527 groups). This would protect the tax-exmpt 501(c)3 status of PG. As always, Wikipedia has the low-down: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/527_group Thoughts? -brandon Jon Noring wrote: >Aaron wrote: > > > >>Wow! I just read the news letter for this week. It's been a few months >>since last time. How long has it been this way? When did it go from the >>news of Project Gutenberg to the blog of Michael Hart? How are quotes on >>politics relevant to the work of PG? Whether you agree with his politics >>or not, there are obviously going to be a lot of people who don't. >> >> > >I think Michael should setup a personal blog -- he has a lot of >interesting viewpoints (some of which I agree with, others I don't) >that should be shared on the public stage. > > > > >>What could have possibly made that seem like a good idea? Injecting such >>hot-button issues into the official Project Gutenberg newsletter gives the >>impression that we are a political organization and that we as volunteers >>support those views. Some volunteers might not be all that fond of that idea. >> >>What is our mission here? To give away books, or to give Michael Hart a >>platform from which to vent his non-ebook related political views? >> >>I have no problem with Michael Hart publishing his politics. I do have a >>problem with him publishing them on PG stationary. >> >> > >PGLAF is a 501(c)3 (so I surmise) and 501(c)3 status restricts the >organization from direct political activity. For example, advocating >that PG volunteers should vote for a particular candidate skirts close >(at the minimum) to such disallowed political activity. > >I don't know what Michael said, but I think PGLAF, and all those who >*may* speak for it in an official status on any forum, should avoid >taking any political position (including how some law should be changed, >such as copyright law) since that violates the "spirit" of 501(c)3, if >not the letter. Certainly Michael has the right, wearing the hat of a >private citizen and using his own forum and resources, to give his >views. But as soon as he puts on the PG hat, then that drags PGLAF into >it (the argument he is not on the PGLAF Board or its payroll, etc., is >not sufficient -- PGLAF and all of PG's activities should avoid even >the perception of political lobbying -- that's what 501(c)3 is all >about.) > >What is really needed is to setup a separate organization devoted to the >defense and rebuilding of the public domain -- somewhat like the NRA, >it would be an "in your face" organization. It would seek the particular >IRS non-profit status allowing political lobbying, which is not 501(c)3. > >Jon Noring > > > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050914/45d6b7b0/attachment.html From marcello at perathoner.de Wed Sep 14 14:21:09 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed Sep 14 14:21:21 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Clearance question - Mein Kampf In-Reply-To: <4328855B.5070504@xs4all.nl> References: <001b01c5b93f$b0bece20$d59495ce@gw98> <011c01c5b954$a58586b0$331a1842@Hugh> <4328855B.5070504@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <43289445.4020006@perathoner.de> Walter van Holst wrote: >> My guess is that restrictions on the sale of Mein Kampf have >> nothing to do with copyright, but rather with the fact that a number >> of European countries (including, I believe, Germany) ban the >> possession of the book. > > Posession is legal here, offering it for sale is illegal though. Trading is illegal only if the copy is a reprint made after 1945. Ironically, Hitler made himself a law prohibiting the second-hand resale of his book, thus increasing his revenues. > Some > public libraries even carry it, but it may not be easy to borrow it. I > doubt that this situation will last very long, however. At the rate the German government is going, most likely they will start presenting a copy to all new-married couples before long. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From jon at noring.name Wed Sep 14 14:41:09 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Wed Sep 14 14:41:25 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <4328917C.6080205@corruptedtruth.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> <1721972256.20050914145642@noring.name> <4328917C.6080205@corruptedtruth.com> Message-ID: <127226815.20050914154109@noring.name> Brandon wrote: > There should be a political "arm" of PG, but have it be a > seperate entity. Such entity falls under IRS section 527 (which is > why they're called 527 groups). This would protect the tax-exmpt > 501(c)3 status of PG. > > As always, Wikipedia has the low-down: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/527_group Thanks for looking up the particulars on the IRS section dealing with political advocacy groups. > Thoughts? I think there should not be a political 'arm' of PG, but rather a general organization devoted to protecting *and* expanding the public domain. PG people can certainly help get it going but it should strive for inclusion -- to not make it an "inhouse" PG affair, but to involve many organizations and advocates. That will increase the effectiveness of the organization in its political goals. It's sort of a "united we stand, divided we fall" way of doing things. I think studying the NRA and seeing why they are very successful will give ideas as to how to proceed. For example, a lot of their power base comes from the millions of ordinary people who are members. This indicates that a public domain (and less onerous copyright law) advocacy group needs to somehow mobilize the ordinary person to join (this is the flaw, for example, with EFF -- they don't provide incentives for large numbers of ordinary people to join their cause -- only the digiteratti join EFF.) A couple years ago I reserved the domain "dmua.org" (which recently expired) with the crazy idea of creating a "Digital Media User's Association", which would unite the ordinary Joe who listens to CDs, watches HDTV and digital tv, plays computer games, etc., etc. with certain electronic industry partners who wish no DMCA and no legal restrictions on technology. If DMUA could provide real perks to members for joining (like discounts on certain equipment, coupons to get media, whatever is doable), many would simply join to get the perks. But the act of joining, even by inactive members, does help build the power base of the organization and provide some real $$$ to lobby in Congress, like the NRA does. When an organization has a million members, and quite a few million dollars in the bank, it does get the attention of many politicos. But a "PG Advocacy Group", say with one thousand members and maybe $50,000 in the bank won't get anywhere -- it's like spitting in the wind. Now I'm not saying a DMUA with 5 million members will succeed in rolling back copyright laws and defanging the DMCA, but it certainly stands a better chance than a few small, elite organizations that represent no more than a few thousand people in total. Jon From cannona at fireantproductions.com Wed Sep 14 15:02:42 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Wed Sep 14 15:05:05 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <1721972256.20050914145642@noring.name> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> <1721972256.20050914145642@noring.name> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914164703.042c99c8@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 03:56 PM 9/14/2005, you wrote: >PGLAF is a 501(c)3 (so I surmise) and 501(c)3 status restricts the >organization from direct political activity. For example, advocating >that PG volunteers should vote for a particular candidate skirts close >(at the minimum) to such disallowed political activity. I believe we are ok, since it does not currently constitute a large portion of our activities. http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=120703,00.html >I don't know what Michael said, but I think PGLAF, and all those who >*may* speak for it in an official status on any forum, should avoid >taking any political position (including how some law should be changed, >such as copyright law) since that violates the "spirit" of 501(c)3, if >not the letter. Certainly Michael has the right, wearing the hat of a >private citizen and using his own forum and resources, to give his >views. But as soon as he puts on the PG hat, then that drags PGLAF into >it (the argument he is not on the PGLAF Board or its payroll, etc., is >not sufficient -- PGLAF and all of PG's activities should avoid even >the perception of political lobbying -- that's what 501(c)3 is all >about.) I believe a more likely problem is the potential that political remarks of the type which Michael made will bother some volunteers who view Michael as a spokesman for PG. Also, just so we're clear, the remarks I am referring to have nothing to do with copyrights. I am referring to the various "news headlines" which blame the poor response to hurricane Katrina on racism. Whether you agree with his position is moot. The point is that such a hot-button political issue has no business in a newsletter for PG when it is so completely unrelated. >What is really needed is to setup a separate organization devoted to the >defense and rebuilding of the public domain -- somewhat like the NRA, >it would be an "in your face" organization. It would seek the particular >IRS non-profit status allowing political lobbying, which is not 501(c)3. I'm not sure we have the funds to do so. Still, it is a good idea, although it might be easier to simply support a previously established organization who share the same goals, if such a group in fact exists. Sincerely Aaron Cannon >Jon Noring > > > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDKJ6OI7J99hVZuJcRAo9oAKCBt4VeyVI0FfWNa1tj9se07ov4pwCeLw9H fzZm+8ITndwLTiOZ4ejSYKM= =SSlt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From shimmin at uiuc.edu Wed Sep 14 15:16:23 2005 From: shimmin at uiuc.edu (Robert Shimmin) Date: Wed Sep 14 15:16:40 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914164703.042c99c8@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> <1721972256.20050914145642@noring.name> <6.2.1.2.0.20050914164703.042c99c8@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <4328A137.2010403@uiuc.edu> Political activity is not necessarily complementary to the "core mission" of creating and preserving electronic texts. I would imagine a significant minority of PG's volunteers have would not support PG lobbying for more a more relaxed copyright regime, and until we have tapped out the public domain, there is no need to alienate their efforts. -- RS From prosfilaes at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 13:27:30 2005 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Wed Sep 14 15:46:31 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Fw: Clearance question - Mein Kampf In-Reply-To: <000c01c5b947$dd448900$d59495ce@gw98> References: <000c01c5b947$dd448900$d59495ce@gw98> Message-ID: <6d99d1fd050914132758a4c69c@mail.gmail.com> On 9/14/05, N Wolcott wrote: > Curiously the Fredonia edition of Mein Kampf, translated by James Murphy, is > listed as "Currently, item can be shipped only within the U.S. ". This would > seem to indicate no copyright in the US but perhaps copyright in EU. More > grist for the mill. I don't see any reason why Mein Kampf would be out of copyright in the US. It was under copyright in Germany in 1998, hence the URAA returned it to copyright in the US. There is no clear copyright owner, but that doesn't mean that no one owns the copyright. Given that there are many copies of this on the net, I don't see any particular reason why PG should push the envelope here. From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Sep 14 15:55:08 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed Sep 14 15:55:32 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: compression Message-ID: <20c.93f4043.305a044c@aol.com> um, go with zip. tools handle it well, and the masses know what it means... i have also done a lot of work making a compressed format, one that my tools use seamlessly; they will also convert it to the other compressed formats (like zip, gzip, bzip, tar) if you (or the end-users) want it to. (except why would you?) in addition, because of how my compression format is structured, an app doesn't even need to "uncompress" it in order to display it. therefore, it blows away other compression formats in timed tests concerning the tasks that are most relevant to e-book performance (these include _searching_, pagination, jumping to a random page, formulating a full-on concordance, dictionary lookup, and so on...) so compression is pretty much a done deal. you can stop worrying about it, and just go do more books. when you can give me 25,000 english e-texts in plain-text files -- using however many d.v.d.'s it might take you at the time -- i'll be able to hand them all back to you on a single d.v.d. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050914/a4c0e561/attachment.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Sep 14 16:03:51 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed Sep 14 16:04:12 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers Message-ID: <25.67c464f6.305a0657@aol.com> sebastien said: > Samely, for XML books > (let's assume in the end all books will be XML'ed) i'd rather not, if you don't mind... :+) > just consider the source XML version (bzipped); > XML to other format tools can be included on the DVD too. that would be great! where are these tools? -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050914/4c6c076f/attachment.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Sep 14 16:04:17 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed Sep 14 16:04:34 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers Message-ID: <206.957aec3.305a0671@aol.com> michael said: > I have some supercomputer time > reserved for testing various compressions, > so if anyone wants to send me any DVDs or their images, > I can try to see how much we can pack onto a single $1 DVD. actually, you can just take a look at richard seltzer's work and see. his d.v.d. (which costs $99, not $1) holds 9,536 plain-text e-books. since a very good majority of those books are public-domain, you could spring for the $99 once, then re-sell copies for $1. (or give 'em away, absorbing the $1 cost of the d.v.d yourself.) for most of us, though legal, that might verge on the unethical; but for you, michael, i think it would be quite proper, because richard got many of those e-texts _from_ project gutenberg... i'll chip in $10 to a fund to buy you a copy... -bowerbird ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------- We are making books available on CD and DVD, at very low cost, selected and organized in an easy-to-use, well-indexed format. These CDs and DVDs contain text, not audio or video; they are designed for PCs, not Macs, that have CD and/or DVD drives. Our mission is to use technology to make books extremely inexpensive and easy to use. Our CDs and DVDs are hand-crafted. The selection and organization are based on our judgment, not automated programs. 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The Complete Classic Collection -- over 9055 books on 9 CDs, all for $149, including American Literature, British Literature (2-CD set), World Literature, Non-Fiction (2-CD set), Religion, Children's Books, and Books about Classical Music We also provide CDs organized by time period (Ancient World, Medieval/Renaissance, etc.), by geography (Middle East, East Asia, etc.), by? author (Shakespeare, Mark Twain, etc.), by theme (US History, Black Americans, Native Americans, Women, etc.), and by genre (drama, humor, philosophy, short stories, travel, etc.) You can see details (including the tables of contents) of all the CDs at our online store at http://store.yahoo.com/samizdat? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050914/5112c70c/attachment.html From jmdyck at ibiblio.org Wed Sep 14 16:04:19 2005 From: jmdyck at ibiblio.org (Michael Dyck) Date: Wed Sep 14 16:05:29 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <4328AC73.A5771F36@ibiblio.org> Aaron Cannon wrote: > > Wow! I just read the news letter for this week. It's been a few months > since last time. How long has it been this way? When did it go from the > news of Project Gutenberg to the blog of Michael Hart? It's been a long time since the PG newsletter was *just* news of Project Gutenberg. Back in March 1998 [1], the newsletter started including excerpts from Edupage. Then NewsScan in June 1999 [2]. (They shifted to the weekly newsletter when it was introduced in April 2001.) Although not news of PG, they were presumably news items that Michael Hart thought would be of interest to newsletter subscribers. He would often add editorial remarks [in square brackets], which were sometimes opinion, but were usually very short. Back in April 2003, the weekly newsletter was split into 2 (then 3, then 2) parts, of which Part 1 was Michael Hart's "Founder's Comments" section, which continued to include the news excerpts and Michael's occasional remarks on them. The October 1, 2003 weekly newsletter [3] contains what you might consider the start of "Michael Hart's blog". In it, after the NewsScan and Edupage items, Michael introduced a section entitled "[And A Few Articles That Didn't Get Enough Coverage]", including articles (apparently written by MH himself) about (1) presidential candidate Howard Dean and (2) cracking in the polar ice caps. This section soon became "More Headline News Mostly Avoided By The Major U.S. Media" and continues to this day. In the July 7, 2004 newsletter, he added: STRANGE QUOTE OF THE WEEK SIMPLE SOLUTION OF THE WEEK July 28, 2004: ODD STATISTICS OF THE WEEK August 11, 2004: ODD GOVERNMENTAL REGULATIONS OF THE WEEK October 20, 2004: PREDICTION OF THE WEEK January 26, 2005: "If we could shrink the earth's population to a village ..." March 23, 2005: DOUBLESPEAK OF THE DAY [later WEEK] June 8, 2005: POEM OF THE WEEK Many of these sections continue to appear in the newsletter. [1] http://www.gutenberg.org/newsletter/archive/PGMonthly_1998_03-04.txt [2] http://www.gutenberg.org/newsletter/archive/PGMonthly_1999_06_02.txt [3] http://www.gutenberg.org/newsletter/archive/PGWeekly_2003_10_01_Part_1.txt -Michael Dyck From prosfilaes at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 16:28:02 2005 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Wed Sep 14 16:28:17 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <4328AC73.A5771F36@ibiblio.org> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> <4328AC73.A5771F36@ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <6d99d1fd050914162854c927d8@mail.gmail.com> On 9/14/05, Michael Dyck wrote: > The October 1, 2003 weekly newsletter [3] contains what you might consider > the start of "Michael Hart's blog". In it, after the NewsScan and Edupage > items, Michael introduced a section entitled "[And A Few Articles That > Didn't Get Enough Coverage]", including articles (apparently written by MH > himself) about (1) presidential candidate Howard Dean and (2) cracking in > the polar ice caps. This section soon became "More Headline News Mostly > Avoided By The Major U.S. Media" and continues to this day. > > In the July 7, 2004 newsletter, he added: > STRANGE QUOTE OF THE WEEK > SIMPLE SOLUTION OF THE WEEK > July 28, 2004: > ODD STATISTICS OF THE WEEK > August 11, 2004: > ODD GOVERNMENTAL REGULATIONS OF THE WEEK > October 20, 2004: > PREDICTION OF THE WEEK > January 26, 2005: > "If we could shrink the earth's population to a village ..." > March 23, 2005: > DOUBLESPEAK OF THE DAY [later WEEK] > June 8, 2005: > POEM OF THE WEEK > >Many of these sections continue to appear in the newsletter. That's really the problem, IMO. When it was just NewsScan and Edupage items, it was a little noisy, but they were skimmable. Is there anything relevant to PG in the recent newsletter that hasn't been in a dozen before? If there is anything at all, I didn't notice it. I'm not against noting bits of news of interest to PG, but the newsletter is so swamped with extraneous stuff, most of which is repeated in every newsletter that I don't waste my time try to dig anything of use anymore. From prosfilaes at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 13:50:15 2005 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Wed Sep 14 16:33:09 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <6d99d1fd0509141350f2f8954@mail.gmail.com> On 9/14/05, Aaron Cannon wrote: > I have no problem with Michael Hart publishing his politics. I do have a > problem with him publishing them on PG stationary. I, for one, have long stopped reading the newsletter. Not only is there not much Gutenberg news in there, there doesn't seem to be any seperation between the news and the repeats of requests that have appeared in the last 40 newsletters. From prosfilaes at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 13:42:32 2005 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Wed Sep 14 16:35:37 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers In-Reply-To: <43284BBE.50602@perathoner.de> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> <43270A3D.8080802@bigpond.net.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050913190715.04428830@mail.fireantproductions.com> <20050914092718.GA7251@clipper.ens.fr> <43284BBE.50602@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <6d99d1fd050914134223a6481b@mail.gmail.com> On 9/14/05, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > bzip2 is quite well known on linux systems. I don't know how well > Windoze supports that. It may be a question of $$$ to Windoze users to > get a decompressor. bzip2 is available for Windows. I think the question is $$$ for a graphical decompressor. > Ad 2. > > Compressing more than one file at a time makes for a smaller archives > because a compressor always starts with a low compression rate and > builds itself up along the way. The first KBs of a file have the worst > compression rate. The max block size for bzip2 is 900kb, so sticking more than 900kb of files together is pointless. Moreso, the bzip2 manual says "Larger block sizes give rapidly diminishing marginal returns. Most of the compression comes from the first two or three hundred k of block size[...]", so even sticking more than 200kb or 300kb of files together may be pointless. I'd really think it more productive to measure the differences, rather than just assume that sticking even the small files together will make a significant difference. From sly at victoria.tc.ca Wed Sep 14 17:50:35 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Wed Sep 14 17:51:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers In-Reply-To: <200509142058.j8EKwvU06133@pico.dm.unipi.it> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> <43270A3D.8080802@bigpond.net.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050913190715.04428830@mail.fireantproductions.com> <20050914092718.GA7251@clipper.ens.fr> <43284BBE.50602@perathoner.de> <200509142058.j8EKwvU06133@pico.dm.unipi.it> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Carlo Traverso wrote: > >>>>> "Marcello" == Marcello Perathoner writes: > Marcello> bzip2 is quite well known on linux systems. I don't know > Marcello> how well Windoze supports that. It may be a question of > Marcello> $$$ to Windoze users to get a decompressor. > > bzip2 is freely available for windows: > > http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/bzip2.htm Also, there is a free Windows program called 7-zip which suppors multiple compressions formats, including bzip2. Andrew From marcello at perathoner.de Wed Sep 14 18:07:08 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed Sep 14 18:07:30 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers In-Reply-To: <6d99d1fd050914134223a6481b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> <43270A3D.8080802@bigpond.net.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050913190715.04428830@mail.fireantproductions.com> <20050914092718.GA7251@clipper.ens.fr> <43284BBE.50602@perathoner.de> <6d99d1fd050914134223a6481b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4328C93C.4090308@perathoner.de> David Starner wrote: > The max block size for bzip2 is 900kb, so sticking more than 900kb of > files together is pointless. Moreso, the bzip2 manual says "Larger > block sizes give rapidly diminishing marginal returns. Most of the > compression comes from the first two or three hundred k of block > size[...]", so even sticking more than 200kb or 300kb of files > together may be pointless. Not at all. The compression is low for the first part of *every* block. So the goal is to minimize the number of blocks. Say you have 10 files a 1.0 MB. Compressing them separately you'll have: 1 full block (good compression) 1 nearly empty block (bad compression) for each file totalling: 10 full blocks (good compression) 10 nearly empty blocks (bad compression) If you stick the files together before compressing you'll have one file of 10 MB and: 11 full blocks (good compression) 1 empty block (bad compression) So there is still a difference for files > 900 KB. Of course the real gain is in the small files. > I'd really think it more productive to > measure the differences, rather than just assume that sticking even > the small files together will make a significant difference. Right. Do that. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From tb at baechler.net Wed Sep 14 21:32:05 2005 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Wed Sep 14 21:31:56 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914155341.043aa118@mail.fireantproductions. com> References: <200509142058.j8EKwvU06133@pico.dm.unipi.it> <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> <43270A3D.8080802@bigpond.net.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050913190715.04428830@mail.fireantproductions.com> <20050914092718.GA7251@clipper.ens.fr> <43284BBE.50602@perathoner.de> <200509142058.j8EKwvU06133@pico.dm.unipi.it> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050914212746.067ccdd0@bisinc.us> Hello. I second the below opinion. I am used to Linux so I know about tar, gzip, bzip2, zip, etc. However it is still a pain to manipulate tar files under Windows. The bzip2 format isn't too bad but it is not easily installed or supported. It would turn many people off if they had to try to guess at how to use it. You could put the bzip2 package on the DVD but that defeats the purpose. Also I don't think using a compressed loop filesystem is a good idea. First, you have the overhead of the program which has to uncompress the loop. Second, you would have to run it on a separate OS like Linux so it would have to be bootable. People would have to boot the DVD to access the books and that would shut them out of their regular Windows systems unless you want to build that into the kernel and then you might as well just give them Knoppix and forget it. Also this keeps the blind out because there would be no easy way to add support for speach synthesizers. At 03:55 PM 9/14/2005 -0500, you wrote: >At 03:58 PM 9/14/2005, you wrote: > >>bzip2 is freely available for windows: > >That's correct. However, I think that the better question to ask would be >is it worth the added level of complexity for most users? For most of the >people on this list, it is almost certainly no problem at all. However, >for many others, it can be. From tb at baechler.net Wed Sep 14 21:42:38 2005 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Wed Sep 14 21:42:29 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914164703.042c99c8@mail.fireantproductions. com> References: <1721972256.20050914145642@noring.name> <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> <1721972256.20050914145642@noring.name> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050914213548.0cd72420@bisinc.us> Hello. I am not going to discuss politics here, but I think such an organization described below already exists and PG is already working with them. They are the Internet Archive. They are active in trying to change copyright law and according to them have got some temporary exceptions in a few areas. I could be misunderstanding this but there obviously is a close relationship with PG and IA. Perhaps a group of people from both PG and IA could combine to found their own political organization which would lobby to have copyright laws in general changed. I could see something like that happening one of these days. Also such a group could appeal to arts groups such as NPR, etc. Yes, NPR is in itself not an arts group but they would probably run stories on how the copyright law is hurting the public and that could help. Of course there are also sites like slashdot who have helped carry the PG idea before with various announcements. Finally there are various grants which could be sought to support the lobbying efforts after such an organization is formed. At 05:02 PM 9/14/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>What is really needed is to setup a separate organization devoted to the >>defense and rebuilding of the public domain -- somewhat like the NRA, >>it would be an "in your face" organization. It would seek the particular >>IRS non-profit status allowing political lobbying, which is not 501(c)3. > >I'm not sure we have the funds to do so. Still, it is a good idea, >although it might be easier to simply support a previously established >organization who share the same goals, if such a group in fact exists. From jon at noring.name Wed Sep 14 22:37:29 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Wed Sep 14 22:38:50 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050914213548.0cd72420@bisinc.us> References: <1721972256.20050914145642@noring.name> <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> <1721972256.20050914145642@noring.name> <5.2.0.9.0.20050914213548.0cd72420@bisinc.us> Message-ID: <1754500520.20050914233729@noring.name> Tony Baechler wrote: > someone else wrote (keep attribution!) >> Jon Noring wrote: >>> What is really needed is to setup a separate organization devoted to the >>> defense and rebuilding of the public domain -- somewhat like the NRA, >>> it would be an "in your face" organization. It would seek the particular >>> IRS non-profit status allowing political lobbying, which is not 501(c)3. >> I'm not sure we have the funds to do so. Still, it is a good idea, >> although it might be easier to simply support a previously established >> organization who share the same goals, if such a group in fact exists. > Hello. I am not going to discuss politics here, but I think such an > organization described below already exists and PG is already working with > them. They are the Internet Archive. They are active in trying to change > copyright law and according to them have got some temporary exceptions in a > few areas. I could be misunderstanding this but there obviously is a close > relationship with PG and IA. Perhaps a group of people from both PG and IA > could combine to found their own political organization which would lobby > to have copyright laws in general changed. I could see something like that > happening one of these days. Also such a group could appeal to arts groups > such as NPR, etc. Yes, NPR is in itself not an arts group but they would > probably run stories on how the copyright law is hurting the public and > that could help. Of course there are also sites like slashdot who have > helped carry the PG idea before with various announcements. Finally there > are various grants which could be sought to support the lobbying efforts > after such an organization is formed. The point I was trying to make earlier is that such organizations, like the Internet Archive, lack a powerbase of a large number of people. This does not mean such organizations are ineffective, but when one looks at probably the most effective lobbying organization, and one which can take on the entire Democratic party apparatus in Congress and oftentimes wins, is the National Rifle Association. NRA's power base significantly, if not entirely, comes from its private membership, and not big $$$ donors (which would primarily be gun and sports companies, and maybe a few wealthy donors who believe in the NRA's cause.) And when something comes up needing the members to participate, NRA asks them to contact their congresscritter, and they do -- IN HUGE NUMBERS. It is very effective. The NRA is feared because it has *huge* numbers of motivated members, not because it has a lot of money. The Internet Archive, on the other hand, does not have a huge membership (it's not geared as a membership driven organization anyway) so if IA sends out a plea for people to contact their congresscritters on some topic, not many will. Very few will even hear the plea unless they are spammed with unsolicited email or annoying popups or banner ads. Member-driven organizations, on the other hand, have established direct lines of communication with the willing members. There are two groups of people (with a lot of overlap) that are very large, and if they are organized properly, will carry a lot of clout. One group are personal computer users, which comprise maybe ~200 million people in the U.S. The other group are digitial media users, those who purchase various types of digital and electronic media (audio CDs, DVDs, etc.) I'm not sure how big this group is, but it no doubt is in the many 10s of millions in the U.S. So we have two conceivable organizations: PCUA: Personal Computer Users Association DMUA: Digital Media Users Association We could combine them into one group as well (no name to suggest). The idea is to make it worthwhile for people who use computers and/or buy digital media to join the organization. They would get perks of various types. After all, people join AAA to get free maps and roadside service, and AAA also does some political lobbying, so I recall. NRA members probably get some perks, too (like the magazine and maybe some discounts here and there (like discounts on hotels and car rental, just guessing.) The key is to organize the Association, find willing commercial sponsors who see it in their interest to provide "perks" to the members, and then build the membership. Then over time that membership will be activated to be a potent force working for their interests, which will be for unencumbered technology and unencumbered digital media. It will also spill over into the copyright arena as well (the leadership of the organization will take positions on copyright terms as well.) Jon Noring From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu Sep 15 01:58:48 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 15 01:59:12 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] html header-stuff, doctype and content-type Message-ID: <92.2f30640d.305a91c8@aol.com> i'm preparing an e-text for submission, and need some info. here's the stuff i've got at the top of my .html file right now. [html] [head] [title]the title [/title] [/head] [body] [il] [ul] what do i need, in the form of a doctype and content-type lines, to run it through the validator? my .html throughout is minimal, and the text is all 7-bit, so i prefer to use the most basic doctype/content-type possible. thanks. -bowerbird p.s. here is the full total of the markup i'm using: [a href="#b01"][/a] ... [a href="#c56"][/a] [a href="#toc"][/a] [br /] [center][/center] [em][/em] [h1][/h1] [h2][/h2] [head][/head] [hr /] [html][/html] [il] [p id="b01"] ... [p id="c56"] [p id="toc"] [p][/p] [small][/small] [title][/title] [ul] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050915/f65e4846/attachment.html From ciesiels at bigpond.net.au Thu Sep 15 04:13:55 2005 From: ciesiels at bigpond.net.au (Michael Ciesielski) Date: Thu Sep 15 04:11:34 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] html header-stuff, doctype and content-type In-Reply-To: <92.2f30640d.305a91c8@aol.com> References: <92.2f30640d.305a91c8@aol.com> Message-ID: <43295773.5030807@bigpond.net.au> Bowerbird@aol.com a ?crit: > i'm preparing an e-text for submission, and need some info. > here's the stuff i've got at the top of my .html file right now. > ... > [il] I'm not aware of any doctype that supports an tag, but otherwise you might try an XHTML Transitional DTD: Raniformly, Michael From jon_niehof at yahoo.com Thu Sep 15 06:47:42 2005 From: jon_niehof at yahoo.com (Jon Niehof) Date: Thu Sep 15 06:47:51 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <1754500520.20050914233729@noring.name> Message-ID: <20050915134742.11762.qmail@web32909.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jon Noring wrote: > The idea is to make it worthwhile for people who use computers > and/or buy digital media to join the organization. They would > get perks of various types. After all, people join AAA to get > free maps and roadside service, and AAA also does some > political lobbying, so I recall. By "some" read "a lot." I suggest people consider the Better World Club (http://www.betterworldclub.com/) if they aren't pro-auto (note that I don't say "if they are anti-car.") Anyhow, perhaps this is a conversation you should be having with the EFF? __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Sep 15 08:14:19 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu Sep 15 08:14:30 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <1754500520.20050914233729@noring.name> References: <1721972256.20050914145642@noring.name> <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> <1721972256.20050914145642@noring.name> <5.2.0.9.0.20050914213548.0cd72420@bisinc.us> <1754500520.20050914233729@noring.name> Message-ID: <43298FCB.1060503@perathoner.de> Jon Noring wrote: > ... the most effective lobbying organization, > ... is the National Rifle Association. > The Internet Archive, on the other hand, does not have a huge membership > ... An archetypal "Noring". You are comparing a populistic association that pushes some people's hot buttons with an association that requires from their members a considerable re-evaluation of the economic system they live in (verging on communist agitation). > There are two groups of people (with a lot of overlap) that are very > large, and if they are organized properly, will carry a lot of clout. > One group are personal computer users, which comprise maybe ~200 > million people in the U.S. 95% of whom don't know better than paying and giving up their rights for using inferior software. (Or are in the habit of pirating their software, in which case they don't care about rights either.) > The other group are digitial media users, > those who purchase various types of digital and electronic media > (audio CDs, DVDs, etc.) I'm not sure how big this group is, but it no > doubt is in the many 10s of millions in the U.S. How many of these listen to, say Charlie Parker, and would profit by a reduction of copyright duration? > The idea is to make it worthwhile for people who use computers and/or > buy digital media to join the organization. They would get perks of > various types. Like the PG newsletter? -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From jon at noring.name Thu Sep 15 08:09:15 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Thu Sep 15 08:16:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <20050915134742.11762.qmail@web32909.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1754500520.20050914233729@noring.name> <20050915134742.11762.qmail@web32909.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1836296739.20050915090915@noring.name> Jon Niehof wrote: > Jon Noring wrote: >> The idea is to make it worthwhile for people who use computers >> and/or buy digital media to join the organization. They would >> get perks of various types. After all, people join AAA to get >> free maps and roadside service, and AAA also does some >> political lobbying, so I recall. > By "some" read "a lot." I suggest people consider the Better > World Club (http://www.betterworldclub.com/) if they aren't > pro-auto (note that I don't say "if they are anti-car.") Well, lots of people don't like the NRA's political agenda either, but one has to give them credit for their political prowess. So used them as the important example. > Anyhow, perhaps this is a conversation you should be having with > the EFF? Yep. I might write up a blog item on this and post it to TeleRead. We'll see. In the meanwhile, back to PG discussion... Jon (p.s. to Jon Niehof -- what is the current status of K.S.?) From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Sep 15 08:23:25 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu Sep 15 08:23:32 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] html header-stuff, doctype and content-type In-Reply-To: <92.2f30640d.305a91c8@aol.com> References: <92.2f30640d.305a91c8@aol.com> Message-ID: <432991ED.5060907@perathoner.de> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > what do i need, in the form of a doctype and content-type lines, > to run it through the validator? You don't *need* any, but if you care you may just grab a file from the archive and copy the stuff or else go to www.w3.org and read the specs. But, WATCH IT !!! HTML is a form of XML !!! If you reach the devil a plume it will soon swallow the whole bird. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From lee at novomail.net Thu Sep 15 08:34:42 2005 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Thu Sep 15 08:34:54 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] html header-stuff, doctype and content-type In-Reply-To: <92.2f30640d.305a91c8@aol.com> References: <92.2f30640d.305a91c8@aol.com> Message-ID: <43299492.4030507@novomail.net> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > i'm preparing an e-text for submission, and need some info. > here's the stuff i've got at the top of my .html file right now. > > [html] > [head] > [title]the title > [/title] > [/head] > [body] > [il] > [ul] > > what do i need, in the form of a doctype and content-type lines, > to run it through the validator? I would strongly recommend that you get a hold of HTMLTidy (http://tidy.sourceforge.net). Tidy will validate your HTML better than W3C's online validator (which is known to be incorrect in at least one particular), fix the errors that it can (reported as warnings), flag the errors it cannot (reported as errors with line numbers), _and_ add the correct XML header/DTD to the file. If you use the '--output-endoding ascii' option it will guarantee that any non-ASCII character that may have slipped in will be properly converted to a character entity. Note that if your file truly _is_ 100% ASCII you could use "utf-8" or "iso-8859-1", or even "windows-1252" in place of "us-ascii", because for values less than 128 all three of these encoding methods are identical. From walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 15 08:37:33 2005 From: walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl (Walter van Holst) Date: Thu Sep 15 08:37:40 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Clearance question - Mein Kampf In-Reply-To: <43289445.4020006@perathoner.de> References: <001b01c5b93f$b0bece20$d59495ce@gw98> <011c01c5b954$a58586b0$331a1842@Hugh> <4328855B.5070504@xs4all.nl> <43289445.4020006@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <4329953D.7050609@xs4all.nl> Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Trading is illegal only if the copy is a reprint made after 1945. > Which is funny, over here it is illegal, regardless of the date of the reprint. >> Some public libraries even carry it, but it may not be easy to borrow >> it. I doubt that this situation will last very long, however. > > > At the rate the German government is going, most likely they will > start presenting a copy to all new-married couples before long. You mean that finally waking up and smelling the coffee of economic reality implies a return to fascism? I was more thinking along the lines of the freedom of speech debate in the Netherlands, and the public opinion is gradually changing to a point where it is no longer political incorrect to say that it is pointless to ban the trade of copies of Mein Kampf. Spreading hate will remain illegal, at least, I hope it will. Regards, Walter From fvandrog at scripps.edu Thu Sep 15 08:53:32 2005 From: fvandrog at scripps.edu (Frank van Drogen) Date: Thu Sep 15 08:53:34 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] html header-stuff, doctype and content-type In-Reply-To: <43299492.4030507@novomail.net> References: <92.2f30640d.305a91c8@aol.com> <43299492.4030507@novomail.net> Message-ID: <6.2.0.8.0.20050915085133.02bc6ab8@mail.scripps.edu> > > "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"> >I would strongly recommend that you get a hold of HTMLTidy >(http://tidy.sourceforge.net). Tidy will validate your HTML better than >W3C's online validator (which is known to be incorrect in at least one >particular), fix the errors that it can (reported as warnings), Using Tidy to detect and flag errors is no problem. But please, don't use it to fix errors. Tidy's output is hard to read by humans, and if something has to be corrected it's a pain. The WWers really don't like it, and have all the reasons to. Frank From hart at pglaf.org Thu Sep 15 09:56:54 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu Sep 15 09:56:55 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <4328AC73.A5771F36@ibiblio.org> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> <4328AC73.A5771F36@ibiblio.org> Message-ID: No, I don't write any of the articles that appear in the Newsletters, but sometimes to avoid copyright infringement I do paraphrase. Also, sometimes I just take notes when the news is on, and can't find which news stories they were quoting so I have to rely on those quick notes I have jotted down [this is often followed by a ? to indicate parts I am not sure I am quoting correctly]. As often as I can I give source material for those who would wish to follow up in more detail. Newsscan has folded, so there are no longer quotes from them. Once in a while I cut and paste from other sources with a URL given. When people submit items for the Newsletter, I just cut and paste in from their emails. Of course, I did write much of the boilerplate that houses statistic implementations, but I usually get the actual data from those who do what they can to keep track of every single book we post. [Posted], sadly to say, doesn't seem to be getting through to me entirely: so we usually have to compare counts several times, and sometimes a day or two later we find out we need to make a correction. We've put in requests for new Newsletter editors for quite some time without much success, even though we have offered those who reply an enormous amount of freedom. If you'd like to see something different, all you have to do is make it your own way, and we'd be only too glad to give you a shot. Thanks!!! Michael On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Michael Dyck wrote: > Aaron Cannon wrote: >> >> Wow! I just read the news letter for this week. It's been a few months >> since last time. How long has it been this way? When did it go from the >> news of Project Gutenberg to the blog of Michael Hart? > > It's been a long time since the PG newsletter was *just* news of Project > Gutenberg. Back in March 1998 [1], the newsletter started including > excerpts from Edupage. Then NewsScan in June 1999 [2]. (They shifted to the > weekly newsletter when it was introduced in April 2001.) Although not news > of PG, they were presumably news items that Michael Hart thought would be > of interest to newsletter subscribers. He would often add editorial remarks > [in square brackets], which were sometimes opinion, but were usually very > short. > > Back in April 2003, the weekly newsletter was split into 2 (then 3, then 2) > parts, of which Part 1 was Michael Hart's "Founder's Comments" section, > which continued to include the news excerpts and Michael's occasional > remarks on them. > > The October 1, 2003 weekly newsletter [3] contains what you might consider > the start of "Michael Hart's blog". In it, after the NewsScan and Edupage > items, Michael introduced a section entitled "[And A Few Articles That > Didn't Get Enough Coverage]", including articles (apparently written by MH > himself) about (1) presidential candidate Howard Dean and (2) cracking in > the polar ice caps. This section soon became "More Headline News Mostly > Avoided By The Major U.S. Media" and continues to this day. > > In the July 7, 2004 newsletter, he added: > STRANGE QUOTE OF THE WEEK > SIMPLE SOLUTION OF THE WEEK > July 28, 2004: > ODD STATISTICS OF THE WEEK > August 11, 2004: > ODD GOVERNMENTAL REGULATIONS OF THE WEEK > October 20, 2004: > PREDICTION OF THE WEEK > January 26, 2005: > "If we could shrink the earth's population to a village ..." > March 23, 2005: > DOUBLESPEAK OF THE DAY [later WEEK] > June 8, 2005: > POEM OF THE WEEK > > Many of these sections continue to appear in the newsletter. > > [1] http://www.gutenberg.org/newsletter/archive/PGMonthly_1998_03-04.txt > [2] http://www.gutenberg.org/newsletter/archive/PGMonthly_1999_06_02.txt > [3] http://www.gutenberg.org/newsletter/archive/PGWeekly_2003_10_01_Part_1.txt > > -Michael Dyck > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From hart at pglaf.org Thu Sep 15 09:58:13 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu Sep 15 09:58:14 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers In-Reply-To: <206.957aec3.305a0671@aol.com> References: <206.957aec3.305a0671@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > michael said: >> I have some supercomputer time >> reserved for testing various compressions, >> so if anyone wants to send me any DVDs or their images, >> I can try to see how much we can pack onto a single $1 DVD. > > actually, you can just take a look at richard seltzer's work and see. > his d.v.d. (which costs $99, not $1) holds 9,536 plain-text e-books. > > since a very good majority of those books are public-domain, > you could spring for the $99 once, then re-sell copies for $1. > (or give 'em away, absorbing the $1 cost of the d.v.d yourself.) > > for most of us, though legal, that might verge on the unethical; > but for you, michael, i think it would be quite proper, because > richard got many of those e-texts _from_ project gutenberg... > > i'll chip in $10 to a fund to buy you a copy... Don't forget "compilation copyright." It might not be as legal as some would think. Michael From hart at pglaf.org Thu Sep 15 10:07:58 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu Sep 15 10:07:58 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <4328A137.2010403@uiuc.edu> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> <1721972256.20050914145642@noring.name> <6.2.1.2.0.20050914164703.042c99c8@mail.fireantproductions.com> <4328A137.2010403@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Robert Shimmin wrote: > Political activity is not necessarily complementary to the "core mission" of > creating and preserving electronic texts. I would imagine a significant > minority of PG's volunteers have would not support PG lobbying for more a > more relaxed copyright regime, and until we have tapped out the public > domain, there is no need to alienate their efforts. I don't like the political lobbying any more than you do, probably less. Michael From jhowse at nf.sympatico.ca Thu Sep 15 14:36:05 2005 From: jhowse at nf.sympatico.ca (JHowse) Date: Thu Sep 15 10:13:12 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] html header-stuff, doctype and content-type In-Reply-To: <43299492.4030507@novomail.net> References: <92.2f30640d.305a91c8@aol.com> <92.2f30640d.305a91c8@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050915143524.00aa0d80@pop1.nf.sympatico.ca> At 09:34 AM 15/09/05 -0600, you wrote: >I would strongly recommend that you get a hold of HTMLTidy >(http://tidy.sourceforge.net). Tidy will validate your HTML better than >W3C's online validator (which is known to be incorrect in at least one >particular), what particular is this? enquiring minds would like to know JHowse From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Sep 15 10:16:06 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu Sep 15 10:16:14 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Clearance question - Mein Kampf In-Reply-To: <4329953D.7050609@xs4all.nl> References: <001b01c5b93f$b0bece20$d59495ce@gw98> <011c01c5b954$a58586b0$331a1842@Hugh> <4328855B.5070504@xs4all.nl> <43289445.4020006@perathoner.de> <4329953D.7050609@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4329AC56.7060305@perathoner.de> Walter van Holst wrote: > You mean that finally waking up and smelling the coffee of economic > reality implies a return to fascism? I mean that some influential people in Germany are again smelling the real economic advantages that fascism brings to themselves, and are selling them as economic advantages for everybody. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From hart at pglaf.org Thu Sep 15 10:27:34 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu Sep 15 10:27:35 2005 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Aaron Cannon wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Wow! I just read the news letter for this week. It's been a few months > since last time. How long has it been this way? When did it go from the > news of Project Gutenberg to the blog of Michael Hart? How are quotes on > politics relevant to the work of PG? Whether you agree with his politics > or not, there are obviously going to be a lot of people who don't. > > What could have possibly made that seem like a good idea? Injecting such > hot-button issues into the official Project Gutenberg newsletter gives the > impression that we are a political organization and that we as volunteers > support those views. Some volunteers might not be all that fond of that > idea. > > What is our mission here? To give away books, or to give Michael Hart a > platform from which to vent his non-ebook related political views? > > I have no problem with Michael Hart publishing his politics. I do have a > problem with him publishing them on PG stationary. None of these are my views, none written by me, or at my instigation. Our readers send me various articles, synopses, URLs, etc., and I usually just put them in exactly as I receive them, and sometimes I ask our CEO if something should be included. I am not a political person, I am apolitical to the point of anti-political, and I don't have any political agenda, other than to stay pretty much as far away from politics as I can get, as many people are aware. If you don't like something from one of those articles, the URL is usually there, and you are more than encouraged to send letters to the editors, and we will be only too glad to post any such letters that are published, and perhaps even some that haven't been [I'll probably ask our CEO first]. As for any changes in the last few months, none that I know of, we just cut the old Newsletter into two portions, but didn't change the content. If you read all the Newsletters over the years, you'll find a very smooth evolution from issue to issue, with the obvious changes when we switched from Monthly to Weekly, and then subdivided when we had volunteers to do the new versions. As you can see, most of the Newsletter is automated, or could/should be, and most of the rest is simply cut and pasted. All of the "hot button" issues are simply taken from the lower echelon media coverage to point out how much they have been hidden, which is the primary point, not the actual content. However, if you have issues with the actual content, perhaps a letter to this Newsletter, as well as to the original media source would engender a conversation. Again, I would have to run this by our CEO. Please note that no mention was made of the political events of Michael Brown, Judge Roberts, etc., or similar political "hot buttons." If you have certain topics you would like to have covered, or, perhaps even NOT covered, just let us know, and perhaps we can make adjustments. We've been quoting Edupage and/or Newsscan for years without any mention from a single one of our readers, other than to correct typos in their copy that was cut and pasted. A minimal number of scientific articles have also been referenced, but I presume those were not considered to be "hot button" issues. Your feedback is appreciated, Thanks!!! Michael From hart at pglaf.org Thu Sep 15 10:32:39 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu Sep 15 10:32:41 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914104352.0208e4b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> <43270A3D.8080802@bigpond.net.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050913190715.04428830@mail.fireantproductions.com> <20050914092718.GA7251@clipper.ens.fr> <6.2.1.2.0.20050914104352.0208e4b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Aaron Cannon wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > That's a possibility, but I don't think it really solves the problem. We > would just be forcing an arbitrary number of ebooks onto a dvd. Even with > a better compression algorithm, we would soon run into the same problem of > not enough space. I think it makes more sense to compile a DVD containing > the first 5000 books, and another containing the next 5000 or less. > > Other thoughts or opinions? > > Sincerely > Aaron Cannon There are already DVDs out there containing from ~10,000 to ~40,000 eBooks, and this is only using single-sided single-layered $1 blank DVDs. The newer DVD burners will put twice as much on a single DVD, dual-layered, but the media is still going to be expensive until/unless they catch on. However, several new DVD formats are on the way that should make all this a moot point, as the entire Project Gutenberg collection should fit on a single one of the DVDs [other than the Human Genome, etc.]. Personally, I am happy for anyone to put together any eBook collections on DVD and get them out to people any way they can. Again my HUGE thanks!!! Michael > > > At 04:27 AM 9/14/2005, you wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 13, 2005 at 07:10:50PM -0500, Aaron Cannon wrote: >> > Well, the complete collection of zip files from DP total 5GB. So, it >> would >> > be too big for a dvd-5, but might fit on a dvd-9. >> >> Suggestion: see how much better other compression algorithms do (eg: >> bzip2) The binaries can be included on the DVD for various systems, they >> are small in comparison. >> >> Samely, for XML books (let's assume in the end all books will be >> XML'ed), just consider the source XML version (bzipped); XML to other >> format tools can be included on the DVD too. >> _______________________________________________ >> gutvol-d mailing list >> gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >> http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > > > - -- > E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com > Skype: cannona > MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail > address.) > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 > Comment: Key available from all major key servers. > > iD8DBQFDKIbeI7J99hVZuJcRAlFwAJ49wXJgREQyKnKMShtLcw+Wu/UO+ACcDkhk > N7FGNK1FdlFMOts+4yfBf/Q= > =DqL6 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Thu Sep 15 10:31:35 2005 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Thu Sep 15 10:32:54 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Charlie Parker Message-ID: <12d94112a878.12a87812d941@ncf.ca> > From Marcello Perathoner > Date Thu, 15 Sep 2005 17:14:19 +0200 >> The other group are digitial media users, >> those who purchase various types of digital and electronic media >> (audio CDs, DVDs, etc.) I'm not sure how big this group is, but it no >> doubt is in the many 10s of millions in the U.S. > How many of these listen to, say Charlie Parker, and would profit by a > reduction of copyright duration? Ask British Airways. They paid the Gershwin estate a gazillion dollars for the use of "Rhapsody in Blue", a work which is in the public domain in most of the world, but not in the UK's life+70 universe, or in the subverted public domain in the US. Indeed, the Gershwin estate were among the biggest backers of the Sonny Bono Act. From lee at novomail.net Thu Sep 15 10:32:41 2005 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Thu Sep 15 10:32:55 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Encoding statement in HTML PG Header In-Reply-To: <20050914130545.314D42F93F@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20050914130545.314D42F93F@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <4329B039.8020803@novomail.net> Joshua Hutchinson wrote: >This refers to the standard PGheader information we include at the beginning of all of our documents. > >For instance: > >Title: The Rejuvenation of Aunt Mary > > >Author: Anne Warner > >Release Date: May 6, 2005 [eBook #15775] > >Language: English > >Character set encoding: ISO-8859-1 > >*** > >The character set encoding line makes sense for text files. However, for HTML files it begins to make a little less sense. > >First of all, an HTML file usually contains an encoding line in the HTML header itself. > >But, this information just refers to how the HTML file is encoding, not necessarily what character set is actually displayed in the browser. For instance, a HTML document encoded in ISO-8859-1 can still contain all sorts of UTF-8 characters. You just have to escape them out (&#xxxx) to get the browser to display the UTF-8 character. > > I think you may be confusing UTF-8 _encoding_ with Unicode character _mapping_. Unicode promises to provide a unique numerical mapping for every character in every language in the world (mappings for Klingon _were_ rejected as inappropriate, however mappings for Tengwar are still under consideration). ASCII is an encoding method using 7 bits that can encode the first 127 values of Unicode, but no more. iso-8859-1 (aka latin-1) is an encoding method using 8 bits (one byte) that can encode the first 256 values of Unicode, but no more. UTF-8 is an encoding method using one or more bytes that can encode all Unicode values up to 2,097,152 (currently, Unicode only defines mappings through 196,480). UTF-16 is an encoding method using either two or four bytes per character that can encode Unicode values up to 1,073,741,824 (I think; I'm a bit fuzzy on UTF-16). MacRoman and windows-1252 use the same _encoding_ method as iso-8859-1, but use non-Unicode character _mappings_ for characters in the range of 128-255. Character entities, specifically numeric entities (&#nnnn;) are a method of representing Unicode values above 127 using ASCII encoding. To my knowledge, character entities are unique to XML/HTML. UTF-8 works by using the high bit of a byte to indicate that it is part of a multi-byte group. iso-8859-1 uses this bit to indicate a mapping in the range of 128-255. Thus, without being told, there is now way for a browser to know whether two bytes, each with the high bit set, represent two Unicode values in the range 128-255 or one Unicode value in the range of 128-2047 (there are some heuristics, but they are not infallible). >So, in that case, if we put a character set encoding line in the PGHeader, which do we use? The file itself is ISO-8859-1 ... but the characters displayed in your browser include UTF-8. Or vice versa ... if you create a HTML doc encoded in UTF-8, but it contains nothing by ASCII characters, which do you say in the PGHeader? > >My reason for asking this is because currently the TEI->HTML conversion doesn't list a character set encoding in the PGHeader. Should it? How should the automated system determine what to put there if we have that line? > > I think it is fair to assume that _all_ PG texts will use Unicode character _mappings_; indeed, I don't think the current PGheader is any indication of the range of character mappings, it only indicates what _encoding_ was used. So to answer the question, "which encoding do we use?" for XML, it should be safe to use the same encoding that was in the PGheader; the header promised a certain encoding, and we should be able to assume that the document will keep its promises. Should the TEI to HTML conversion generate a character set encoding declaration? Absolutely. Which one should it generate? Whichever one it used. If the conversion uses UTF-8 output (and I'm betting it does) it should declare that in the XHTML header. Likewise, it would be perfectly acceptable to use "iso-8859-1" or "us-ascii", just so long as the resulting document matches the declaration. Some browsers rely on the content-encoding declaration in figuring out how to display the text; you can use any one you like, just don't lie to the browser. For texts that truly are ASCII (i.e. limited to 7-bit characters) you can use any of "us-ascii", "utf-8", "iso-8859-1", "window-1252" or "macroman" because these encodings are all identical for values less than 128. Personally, I like "iso-8859" for western European texts, and "utf-8" for all others, although it wouldn't hurt my feelings to use "utf-8" exclusively. >I'm looking for opinions and hopefully a consensus can be reached. > >Josh >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > From hart at pglaf.org Thu Sep 15 10:53:18 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu Sep 15 10:53:20 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Charlie Parker In-Reply-To: <12d94112a878.12a87812d941@ncf.ca> References: <12d94112a878.12a87812d941@ncf.ca> Message-ID: I think the various airlines started using Gershwin before the UK went to "life +70" as mentioned below. . . . Michael On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Wallace J.McLean wrote: > >> From Marcello Perathoner >> Date Thu, 15 Sep 2005 17:14:19 +0200 > >>> The other group are digitial media users, >>> those who purchase various types of digital and electronic media >>> (audio CDs, DVDs, etc.) I'm not sure how big this group is, but it > no >>> doubt is in the many 10s of millions in the U.S. > >> How many of these listen to, say Charlie Parker, and would profit by > a >> reduction of copyright duration? > > Ask British Airways. They paid the Gershwin estate a gazillion dollars > for the use of "Rhapsody in Blue", a work which is in the public > domain in most of the world, but not in the UK's life+70 universe, or > in the subverted public domain in the US. > > Indeed, the Gershwin estate were among the biggest backers of the > Sonny Bono Act. > > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu Sep 15 11:32:29 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 15 11:32:39 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? Message-ID: <59.2fe8a3a2.305b183d@aol.com> michael said: > If you'd like to see something different, all you have to do is make > it your own way, and we'd be only too glad to give you a shot. i enjoy your news clips _and_ your individual commentaries on them. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050915/cd0a6878/attachment.html From cannona at fireantproductions.com Thu Sep 15 10:47:16 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Thu Sep 15 11:35:12 2005 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050915123009.0485eae0@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 12:27 PM 9/15/2005, you wrote: >None of these are my views, none written by me, or at my instigation. > >Our readers send me various articles, synopses, URLs, etc., and I usually >just put them in exactly as I receive them, and sometimes I ask our CEO >if something should be included. Then I suggest that it would be quite advantageous to exercise a little more discretion. I would advise only putting things in the newsletter which are directly relevant to the work of PG and the fulfillment of it's plans and expansion of its goals. Anything beyond that lowers the value of the newsletter and causes people to be less likely to read it because of its bulk. It also may, (as I mentioned previously), due to the hot-button nature of some issues cause rifts in the PG community which could easily be avoided. >I am not a political person, I am apolitical to the point of anti-political, >and I don't have any political agenda, other than to stay pretty much as far >away from politics as I can get, as many people are aware. > >If you don't like something from one of those articles, the URL is usually >there, and you are more than encouraged to send letters to the editors, and >we will be only too glad to post any such letters that are published, and >perhaps even some that haven't been [I'll probably ask our CEO first]. The point wasn't the issues raised by the article excerpts, the point was their relevance and appropriateness in the PG newsletter. >As for any changes in the last few months, none that I know of, we just >cut the old Newsletter into two portions, but didn't change the content. I suppose I just never paid close enough attention. It's been a while since I've even opened a newsletter because of its size and redundancy, and even longer since I've made it all the way through one. >If you read all the Newsletters over the years, you'll find a very smooth >evolution from issue to issue, with the obvious changes when we switched >from Monthly to Weekly, and then subdivided when we had volunteers to do >the new versions. As you can see, most of the Newsletter is automated, >or could/should be, and most of the rest is simply cut and pasted. > >All of the "hot button" issues are simply taken from the lower echelon >media coverage to point out how much they have been hidden, which is the >primary point, not the actual content. However, if you have issues with >the actual content, perhaps a letter to this Newsletter, as well as to >the original media source would engender a conversation. Again, I would >have to run this by our CEO. > >Please note that no mention was made of the political events of Michael >Brown, Judge Roberts, etc., or similar political "hot buttons." > >If you have certain topics you would like to have covered, or, perhaps >even NOT covered, just let us know, and perhaps we can make adjustments. > >We've been quoting Edupage and/or Newsscan for years without any mention >from a single one of our readers, other than to correct typos in their >copy that was cut and pasted. A minimal number of scientific articles >have also been referenced, but I presume those were not considered to be >"hot button" issues. They always seemed rather neutral to me, if not a little irrelevant to PG. That's not to say they weren't interesting, but I'm just not sure they belong in a PG newsletter. Anyway, that's my $0.02. Sincerely Aaron Cannon -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDKb7LI7J99hVZuJcRAtE6AJ9b8c/DToo/jNF3iPnqwcRfXYU/IACgqym6 JzPF/PQoSp2E4f52EHL/fkw= =Sl95 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cannona at fireantproductions.com Thu Sep 15 11:02:38 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Thu Sep 15 11:35:39 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913115241.020298b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> <43270A3D.8080802@bigpond.net.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050913190715.04428830@mail.fireantproductions.com> <20050914092718.GA7251@clipper.ens.fr> <6.2.1.2.0.20050914104352.0208e4b0@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050915125450.0485ded0@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 12:32 PM 9/15/2005, you wrote: >There are already DVDs out there containing from ~10,000 to ~40,000 eBooks, >and this is only using single-sided single-layered $1 blank DVDs. That is true, however, the reason we can only get 5000 of the DP books onto a DVD is because many of them include pictures and there are multiple versions in HTML, PDF, ETC. So, yes. If we only took plaintext, we could probably squeeze all of the DP stuff onto a couple CDs. Maybe even one. This is actually a good introduction to another topic which I have been mulling over. I'll start a new thread for that though. >The newer DVD burners will put twice as much on a single DVD, dual-layered, >but the media is still going to be expensive until/unless they catch on. > >However, several new DVD formats are on the way that should make all this >a moot point, as the entire Project Gutenberg collection should fit on a >single one of the DVDs [other than the Human Genome, etc.]. True, or perhaps flash technology will eventually catch up in capacity and price. Sincerely Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDKb7lI7J99hVZuJcRAsAGAJ4pTzj0H4XufYVWkwzf1FtSAhyTSACgt3Gm g5PkKL25pgEbINZaoAlVj6E= =cj5u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cannona at fireantproductions.com Thu Sep 15 11:33:47 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Thu Sep 15 11:36:33 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] a new DVD Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050915131049.04e203f0@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I know I've brought this up in the past, but I've never been able to reach an agreement or even a workable solution. Since we have the ISO creator in place and building DVDs has just gotten a whole lot easier, perhaps its time to try again. The DVDs and CDs that we are currently distributing, as many of you know, are from 2003. They were great for their time, and are still excellent collections. However, I believe we should generate a new compilation for distribution. The question is what should be included? My personal feeling is that we should be distributing a DVD and CD with as many books as possible, even if that means excluding the pictures which go along with many of them. The reason I feel this way is because our discs are going to various parts of the world where such collections are virtually unheard of or unavailable. Many of those discs are going into schools and literally tripling (or more) their library collections. These people are happy to receive pictures along with those books, but that is secondary IMHO to what they really want and that is more books. If someone wants pictures, they will almost certainly go somewhere else. But, when people want books, they come to Project Gutenberg, and that IMHO is what we should give them. That's not to say that we shouldn't include pictures on the DVD. But I do think that they should be secondary. Some books absolutely need pictures to have any value. The Hand Shadows book is a good example. Identifying all of them might be a challenge though. Now, I have to admit that as a blind person I may be a bit biased, and that is why I am seeking your input. The next time we send a DVD to South Africa, what should be on it? Sincerely Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDKb8bI7J99hVZuJcRAumAAJ93OONK550dtCfK/R6r+zt3hOIuXQCfbDEJ O2jNTHQJGSlUstnbA4ACtmc= =6xxD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu Sep 15 12:00:51 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 15 12:01:10 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] question for DPers Message-ID: <212.921be30.305b1ee3@aol.com> michael said: > Don't forget "compilation copyright." > It might not be as legal as some would think. if you culled out e-texts that are not in _your_ library, you wouldn't have to worry about that in the slightest. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050915/43bc74d3/attachment.html From jmdyck at ibiblio.org Thu Sep 15 12:03:36 2005 From: jmdyck at ibiblio.org (Michael Dyck) Date: Thu Sep 15 12:04:44 2005 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <4329C588.84695ED3@ibiblio.org> Michael Hart wrote: > > None of these are my views, none written by me, or at my instigation. So are you saying that you did *not* write the following sentences, and that they do *not* reflect your views? -- "No mention is made of what to do about those for whom no transportation is available. . .those were obviously beneath the radar scope of planning." -- "Somehow it seems that those farthest from the situation are the only ones willing to state what is obvious locally." -- "I supposed the strangest words of the week were those NOT heard, as NBC censored Kanye West's comments" -- "5/8 of Bush's emergency management appointees had no experience" And are you saying it's *not* your view that the various comments on how the Katrina relief efforts are going (from the President, VP, and First Lady) are "doublespeak"? Given that these items appear in 'Michael Hart's "Founder's Comments" section of the Newsletter', I think the natural inference is that any un-attributed comments are yours, and represent your views. > Our readers send me various articles, synopses, URLs, etc., and I > usually just put them in exactly as I receive them, and sometimes > I ask our CEO if something should be included. And is that the case for any of the items listed above? > I am not a political person, I am apolitical to the point of > anti-political, and I don't have any political agenda, other > than to stay pretty much as far away from politics as I can get, > as many people are aware. If you were staying as far away from politics as you could get, you wouldn't be including political items in the newsletter. > If you don't like something from one of those articles, the URL is > usually there, There were no URLs or other attribution for the following items: -- reports of racism in US media -- New Orleans refugees turned back at Gretna (other than the attribution of a headline to the LA Times) -- 40 Died In A Hospital, There Was No Evacuation Plan For Them. -- Palestinians Burn Gaza Synagogues -- Comments on How The Katrina Relief Efforts Are Going -- 5/8 of Bush's emergency management appointees had no experience -- Meat consumption in China us up 400% in 20 years. -- One Ohio high school was reported to have 63% of the girls pregnant. -- In some communities blacks are 9 times as likely to be pulled over for traffic stops than are whites. -- Nearly 3/4 of a million dollars for 30 second American Idol ad! > Please note that no mention was made of the political events of > Michael Brown, What about this?: "Michael Brown was simply the college roommate of the original FEMA chief, not other recommendation or expertise, not even a real job on his resume, other than the Arabian Horse group." > Judge Roberts, etc., or similar political "hot buttons." So if you quote someone as saying "George Bush doesn't care about black people", you think that *isn't* a political hot button? -Michael Dyck From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu Sep 15 12:16:12 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 15 12:16:26 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] html header-stuff, doctype and content-type Message-ID: <1ff.a237e60.305b227c@aol.com> lee said: > > ? "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"> > > > thanks lee. but this has me claiming the file is a form of xhtml, and not just the straightforward-plain-and-ordinary .html that it is. (i believe it would run in a 1997 browser.) what would the lines look like that would support this type of just-the-basics .html file? of course, i don't need anything more than the [html] at the top to get it to actually _work_ in a browser -- any browser -- and work just fine. so this is just an exercise in getting the file _validated_, so that it can pass the "requirement" of getting it posted. > Note that if your file truly _is_ 100% ASCII you could use > "utf-8" or "iso-8859-1", or even "windows-1252" > in place of "us-ascii", because for values less than 128 > all three of these encoding methods are identical. right. but i would prefer to make the claim as minimal as possible -- to reflect the actuality of the file -- not as maximal as possible... -bowerbird p.s. as for "tidy", thanks for all your open-source work on it... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050915/dd7c3f4f/attachment.html From cannona at fireantproductions.com Thu Sep 15 12:30:20 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Thu Sep 15 12:40:03 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] new CD compilation Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050915142545.0202b008@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 For a while now we've been kicking around the idea of an non-English language collection of PG Etexts. I've created a sample compilation which you can take a look at and make suggestions. http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/pgiso/published.php I'd like to also add some books which are unrestricted by language barriers. Any suggestions? I've already put the Hand Shadows book on there, but would be interested to hear any more ideas. We've got about 75MB left to fill. Perhaps some of the music files. Thanks! Sincerely Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDKc4TI7J99hVZuJcRAsiKAKC+ioeqlP07cQZLg87k+XLwU7moTgCgoIH6 zh+ayuUsWADen8aJb66ZS5c= =T/hw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu Sep 15 12:55:37 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 15 12:55:56 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] .tei repostings and evaluation of their .pdf versions Message-ID: <7b.4d70dc85.305b2bb9@aol.com> josh, i see a few of your .tei projects were reposted. i looked at your earlier .pdf versions, to evaluate them, but it was very hard to keep at the task for very long. first, they are much _improved_ over earlier attempts, so whoever is refining the xslt -- marcello? you? both? -- deserves some warm encouragement for that. keep it up! in their current state, the .pdf's kind of remind me of a young pre-teen girl. her face might well _be_ pretty, but it's difficult for us to tell, because we can't look at it for long enough to decide, since it's covered with pimples... the "pimples", in your .pdf files, are widows and orphans. to the typographically knowledgeable, they're eyesores. and since they appear so frequently within your .pdf's -- practically every other page-spread -- it's distracting, distracting enough that it's impossible to see much else... fortunately, i think there is probably some easy setting that you can make to eliminate all the windows/orphans. indeed, you might even have made that change already! have you? if so, i'll look at the .pdf's that were reposted, and we can move on to some less-obvious points... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050915/bd4b3ee3/attachment.html From jeroen.mailinglist at bohol.ph Thu Sep 15 14:26:11 2005 From: jeroen.mailinglist at bohol.ph (Jeroen Hellingman (Mailing List Account)) Date: Thu Sep 15 14:24:27 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Clearance question - Mein Kampf In-Reply-To: <000c01c5b947$dd448900$d59495ce@gw98> References: <000c01c5b947$dd448900$d59495ce@gw98> Message-ID: <4329E6F3.1050303@bohol.ph> This discussion pops-up every once in a while... I would personally be in favour of having this mongrel work available on-line, but only for its historical significance. People should know what moved so many people in Germany to follow such a destructive policy and madness. I would be in favour of lifting bans and add it to the PG collection, if only to take away its 'forbidden fruits' status, and work as an attraction for neo-Nazi sites that continue to spread ignorance and hate. I may discuss this with my grandmother, who lived in hiding in German-occupied Netherlands for almost two years to learn what she thinks about this issue. She also contributed her story on video to Steven Spielberg's Holocaust survivors project - I hope these tapes will also once become available more openly: it now requires written permission from the person's interviewed to be able to see them, and hear the victims voices. The copyright issue is unclear. It probably is still in copyright in the US, but there will probably be nobody who has standing to sue for copyright infringment. In Germany, the state of Bavaria has confiscated the copyrights, but it has no legal power to confiscate copyrights outside its jurisdiction. Although I sometimes jokingly state that the copyright extention in 1995 was intended to keep this work in copyright, I don't believe this was more than a coincidence. In life+50 countries (and next year also India), it is now public domain, and can be republished. However, I would not want to have it as part of a rather small collection, as not to have it attract undue attention. Jeroen. From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Sep 15 14:48:33 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu Sep 15 14:48:46 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Clearance question - Mein Kampf In-Reply-To: <4329E6F3.1050303@bohol.ph> References: <000c01c5b947$dd448900$d59495ce@gw98> <4329E6F3.1050303@bohol.ph> Message-ID: <4329EC31.9030000@perathoner.de> Jeroen Hellingman (Mailing List Account) wrote: > The copyright issue is unclear. It probably is still in copyright in the > US, but there will probably be nobody who has standing to sue for > copyright infringment. In Germany, the state of Bavaria has confiscated > the copyrights, but it has no legal power to confiscate copyrights > outside its jurisdiction. Many German lawyers argue that Bavaria had no right to confiscate the copyrights ... but this is immaterial. "Mein Kampf" was written in 1924 and Hitler died in 1945, so copyright has not expired in the US and in Europe. We may argue over who owns the copyright, but not over the fact that it still is copyrighted. This leaves it as a book for PG Australia. OTOH, being sued over copyright infringement of "Mein Kampf" will surely bring some media attention to PG :-) -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From collin at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 15 15:36:11 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Thu Sep 15 15:20:02 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Clearance question - Mein Kampf In-Reply-To: <4329EC31.9030000@perathoner.de> References: <4329E6F3.1050303@bohol.ph> Message-ID: <432A137B.23803.99AA41@localhost> On 15 Sep 2005, at 23:48, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > "Mein Kampf" was written in 1924 and Hitler died in 1945, so copyright > has not expired in the US and in Europe. We may argue over who owns > the copyright, but not over the fact that it still is copyrighted. The Dutch Wikipedia claims that rights were transfered in the US and and the UK before 1939 to respectively Houghton Mifflin and Random House. http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/10/mein_royalties.php has a longer story. Assuming that is true, it is interesting to note that a US publisher claimed the book was in the public domain, because Hitler had published it as a stateless person, but a judge took pity on this stateless person and declared the book copyrighted after all. > This leaves it as a book for PG Australia. http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200601.txt -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From prosfilaes at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 15:21:24 2005 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Thu Sep 15 15:21:35 2005 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <6d99d1fd050915152172289c22@mail.gmail.com> On 9/15/05, Michael Hart wrote: > As you can see, most of the Newsletter is automated, > or could/should be, and most of the rest is simply cut and pasted. I don't see the value in an automated, cut and pasted newsletter filled with anything but a simple list of the new books. Useful content isn't that simple. From lee at novomail.net Thu Sep 15 15:28:07 2005 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Thu Sep 15 15:28:18 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] html header-stuff, doctype and content-type In-Reply-To: <1ff.a237e60.305b227c@aol.com> References: <1ff.a237e60.305b227c@aol.com> Message-ID: <4329F577.9070703@novomail.net> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > lee said: > > > > > "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"> > > > > > > > > > thanks lee. but this has me claiming the file is a form of xhtml, > and not just the straightforward-plain-and-ordinary .html that it is. > (i believe it would run in a 1997 browser.) what would the lines > look like that would support this type of just-the-basics .html file? Well, if it validates to XHTML 1.0 transitional it will also run in a 1997 browser. XHTML doesn't make old browsers not work, it just cleans up the format so new and useful tools will also work with it. If, on the other hand, you are committed to only supporting older browsers you could try You may have to change the case of the word HTML. HTML is case insensitive for tags, but XML is very case sensitive; I don't know if the validator you contemplate using requires case sensitivity or not. From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Sep 15 15:33:47 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu Sep 15 15:34:05 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] .tei repostings and evaluation of their .pdf versions In-Reply-To: <7b.4d70dc85.305b2bb9@aol.com> References: <7b.4d70dc85.305b2bb9@aol.com> Message-ID: <4329F6CB.5030808@perathoner.de> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > the "pimples", in your .pdf files, are widows and orphans. > > to the typographically knowledgeable, they're eyesores. > and since they appear so frequently within your .pdf's > -- practically every other page-spread -- it's distracting, > distracting enough that it's impossible to see much else... > > fortunately, i think there is probably some easy setting > that you can make to eliminate all the windows/orphans. If we want to eliminate the widows and clubs we must - include `stretchability' in the leading or - have a ragged bottom. Both solutions can be worse eyesores than the original problem. With stretchable leading the lines on the left hand page will not match the lines on the right hand page. With ragged bottom, facing pages may be of different length. In commercial typesetting these problems are overcome by manually tightening or loosening some paragraphs on the page, or even making the author rewrite some of the copy to fit the page. In a purely automated process this is impossible. We also want to keep the flexibility of changing fonts, page sizes etc. so we cannot insert manual fixes. I know that you will write a program over the weekend that solves exactly this problem that Dr. Knuth was not able to solve. But what good is it to me if you don't ever show a single line of all the fantastic code you wrote? -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Thu Sep 15 15:34:41 2005 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Thu Sep 15 15:35:56 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Clearance question - Mein Kampf Message-ID: <1341fe138f14.138f141341fe@ncf.ca> >From Marcello Perathoner > "Mein Kampf" was written in 1924 and Hitler died in 1945, so copyright > has not expired in the US and in Europe. We may argue over who owns the > copyright, but not over the fact that it still is copyrighted. That is not a "fact", or at least not a complete fact: most of the countries of the world, with most of the world's population living in them, have a life+50 term of copyright. Even if the work is still under copyright -- setting aside the idiotic issue of determining ownership now -- in Germany and the US, in most of the world, the book no longer has copyright subsisting in it. And that "most of the world" is about to get a lot larger, when the "life+60" copyright in India expires, if it hasn't already. (Not sure whether India has the "and to the end of that year" wrinkle, or not.) Whatever the status of the work in Germany, from where I am typing, Mein Kampf is, for better or for worse, at least in its original language, a public domain book. From jon at noring.name Thu Sep 15 15:52:30 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Thu Sep 15 15:52:51 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] .tei repostings and evaluation of their .pdf versions In-Reply-To: <4329F6CB.5030808@perathoner.de> References: <7b.4d70dc85.305b2bb9@aol.com> <4329F6CB.5030808@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <247906831.20050915165230@noring.name> Marcello wrote: > Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: >> the "pimples", in your .pdf files, are widows and orphans. >> >> to the typographically knowledgeable, they're eyesores. >> and since they appear so frequently within your .pdf's >> -- practically every other page-spread -- it's distracting, >> distracting enough that it's impossible to see much else... >> >> fortunately, i think there is probably some easy setting >> that you can make to eliminate all the windows/orphans. > If we want to eliminate the widows and clubs we must > > - include `stretchability' in the leading or > - have a ragged bottom. Another tweak in higher-end typesetting engines (of which Adobe Indesign is at the lower end) is to look at selected hyphenation to compress the text a little more, and even do small tweaks to the character spacing, both of which sometimes leads to freeing up a line in a paragraph. > Both solutions can be worse eyesores than the original problem. > With stretchable leading the lines on the left hand page will not match > the lines on the right hand page. Agreed. Leading changes on one page can lead to left-right-page differences which will be noticeable. One solution is that the leading on the left/right pages are tweaked together. > In commercial typesetting these problems are overcome by manually > tightening or loosening some paragraphs on the page, or even making the > author rewrite some of the copy to fit the page. In the case of reproducing already existing (finished texts), rewriting is definitely not an option! > In a purely automated process this is impossible. We also want to keep > the flexibility of changing fonts, page sizes etc. so we cannot insert > manual fixes. Definitely. However, there is the possibility that future automated typesetting engines may improve the widows/orphans problems by multiple attacks on the various parameters that can be tweaked. > I know that you will write a program over the weekend that solves > exactly this problem that Dr. Knuth was not able to solve. But what good > is it to me if you don't ever show a single line of all the fantastic > code you wrote? Jon From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu Sep 15 16:07:07 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 15 16:07:23 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] .tei repostings and evaluation of their .pdf versions Message-ID: <102.69720127.305b589b@aol.com> marcello said: > If we want to eliminate the widows and clubs we must > ? - include `stretchability' in the leading or > ? - have a ragged bottom. paper-books use the first solution, almost exclusively. so that's the one you want. > Both solutions can be worse eyesores than the original problem. untrue. that's why typographers use the variable-leading method. > With stretchable leading the lines on the left hand page > will not match the lines on the right hand page. and that's totally meaningless, which is they use that method. > With ragged bottom, facing pages may be of different length. that problem is not _quite_ so meaningless, because bottom-balancing the page-spread is esthetically pleasing. but if the only way you can get rid of the widows and orphans is to give up bottom-balancing, then do it. the widow/orphan problem is _much_ worse, especially with some _pages_ having one line! nine out of ten typographers will tell you so. (and the tenth one is the worst of those ten.) > In commercial typesetting these problems > are overcome by manually tightening or loosening > some paragraphs on the page, or even making the > author rewrite some of the copy to fit the page. since the introduction of computers into typesetting, the manual adjustment of leading is now antiquated... > In a purely automated process this is impossible. in a purely automated process, copy-fitting is automated. > We also want to keep the flexibility of changing fonts, > page sizes etc. so we cannot insert manual fixes. well, my program controls for widows and orphans, as well as bottom-balancing page-spreads, and yes, it allows the person to change fonts, pagesize, etc. so you won't get very far with that "impossible" line. but hey, if you and your tools can't do it, i understand. still, give up the bottom-balancing if you must do so, because widows and orphans will make typographers laugh at your output... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050915/280af5ff/attachment.html From sly at victoria.tc.ca Thu Sep 15 16:19:41 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Thu Sep 15 16:19:54 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Clearance question - Mein Kampf In-Reply-To: <4329E6F3.1050303@bohol.ph> References: <000c01c5b947$dd448900$d59495ce@gw98> <4329E6F3.1050303@bohol.ph> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Jeroen Hellingman (Mailing List Account) wrote: > I don't believe this was more than a coincidence. In life+50 countries > (and next year also India), it is now public domain, and can be > republished. However, I would not want to have it as part of a rather > small collection, as not to have it attract undue attention. The text in question has been availible from PG Australia in an English translation for a while now, and I don't believe it has attracted undue attention. Andrew From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Sep 15 16:54:49 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu Sep 15 16:55:04 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] .tei repostings and evaluation of their .pdf versions In-Reply-To: <102.69720127.305b589b@aol.com> References: <102.69720127.305b589b@aol.com> Message-ID: <432A09C9.5080803@perathoner.de> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > marcello said: > >> If we want to eliminate the widows and clubs we must >> - include `stretchability' in the leading or >> - have a ragged bottom. > > > paper-books use the first solution, almost exclusively. > so that's the one you want. "When you are typesetting a document that spans several pages, it's generally best to define \baselineskip so that it cannot stretch or shrink, because that will give more uniformity to pages. A small variation in the distance between baselines -- say only half a point -- can make a substantial difference in the appearence of the type, since it significantly affects the proportion of white to black." ---- Donald E. Knuth, The TeXbook This is my authority. Now I'd like to know yours. > in a purely automated process, copy-fitting is automated. > > well, my program controls for widows and orphans, > as well as bottom-balancing page-spreads, and yes, > it allows the person to change fonts, pagesize, etc. Man, what are you still doing here? Go sell your wonder program to the big publishing houses and make millions! -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From scott_bulkmail at productarchitect.com Thu Sep 15 17:28:18 2005 From: scott_bulkmail at productarchitect.com (Scott Lawton) Date: Thu Sep 15 17:45:57 2005 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: Michael Hart typed: >None of these are my views, none written by me, or at my instigation. ??? That's certainly not how it looks from the newsletter. And, independent of who wrote them, someone chose to include many, many items that have nothing to do with PG (and chose particular items that reflect a specific worldview). >I am not a political person, I am apolitical to the point of anti-political, >and I don't have any political agenda, other than to stay pretty much as far >away from politics as I can get, as many people are aware. I'm not sure what you mean by "political", but there sure is an awful lot in the newsletter that would fall under what many (most?) people would call "politics" or "the political realm". Still, if the word "politics" is a stumbling block, how about "current events that are unrelated to PG". The newsletter has always had far too much of that (IMHO). >If you don't like something from one of those articles, the URL is usually >there, and you are more than encouraged to send letters to the editors, and >we will be only too glad to post any such letters that are published, and >perhaps even some that haven't been [I'll probably ask our CEO first]. i.e. you're inviting even MORE coverage of politics (er, current events)? >We've been quoting Edupage and/or Newsscan for years without any mention >from a single one of our readers That may well be true, though doesn't indicate whether readers would (in general) prefer a PG-specific newsletter vs. the current expanded version. Just as one example, I've never spoken out against the newsletter since I'm not willing to edit it and am happy just to ignore it. But, now that the subject has been raised.... I suspect that many people would read a short, focused newsletter that emphasized "what's new" at the top. I'm pretty skeptical how many people are fans of the tedious stats and other repeition; if they were moved to a separate newsletter, how many would subscribe? A "non-PG items of interest to the newsletter editor" would also be appropriate as a distinct newsletter. -- Cheers, Scott S. Lawton http://Classicosm.com/ - classic books From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu Sep 15 18:50:41 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 15 18:51:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] .tei repostings and evaluation of their .pdf versions Message-ID: <1d9.44dd1bea.305b7ef1@aol.com> This is my authority. Now I'd like to know yours.0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050915/8a3cc815/attachment-0001.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu Sep 15 18:54:00 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 15 18:54:19 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] .tei repostings and evaluation of their .pdf versions Message-ID: <99.66d6011a.305b7fb8@aol.com> marcello said: > This is my authority. Now I'd like to know yours. if you think knuth would defend your .pdf's as they are, you are seriously deluded. if you don't care if typographers would laugh at your output, why should i? the worse your stuff looks, the better mine looks in comparison. but you're not fooling anyone. once people have forgotten that i was the one who pointed out the pimples, you'll fix 'em. have a nice day. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050915/12afa404/attachment.html From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Sep 15 19:16:24 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu Sep 15 19:16:40 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] .tei repostings and evaluation of their .pdf versions In-Reply-To: <99.66d6011a.305b7fb8@aol.com> References: <99.66d6011a.305b7fb8@aol.com> Message-ID: <432A2AF8.2060204@perathoner.de> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: >> This is my authority. Now I'd like to know yours. > > if you think knuth would defend your .pdf's as they are, > you are seriously deluded. You did not answer my question. What autority can you bring in to support your claim that paper books use variable leading "almost exclusively"? Or should I just be contented that *you* said it. > if you don't care if typographers would laugh at your output, > why should i? At least its only typographers who laugh at me. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu Sep 15 19:37:28 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 15 19:37:45 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] .tei repostings and evaluation of their .pdf versions Message-ID: <157.590f05b6.305b89e8@aol.com> marcello said: > What autority can you bring in to support your claim that > paper books use variable leading "almost exclusively"? you don't need an "autority"; you only need to look at them. you will see, in any nicely-typeset book, that pagespreads are bottom-balanced and there are zero widows or orphans... and if you count the lines on each page, you'll find some spreads where they differ. this mix of facts means variable leading. period. now, i'm done with this conversation, thank you. you simply don't care to learn, so there's no point. if you are happy with your widows and orphans, i'm happy for you. some girls like their pimples. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050915/7aab1379/attachment.html From hart at pglaf.org Thu Sep 15 21:47:44 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu Sep 15 21:47:46 2005 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <4329C588.84695ED3@ibiblio.org> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> <4329C588.84695ED3@ibiblio.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Michael Dyck wrote: > Michael Hart wrote: >> >> None of these are my views, none written by me, or at my instigation. > > So are you saying that you did *not* write the following sentences, and > that they do *not* reflect your views? > > -- "No mention is made of what to do about those for whom no > transportation is available. . .those were obviously beneath the > radar scope of planning." > > -- "Somehow it seems that those farthest from the situation are the > only ones willing to state what is obvious locally." > > -- "I supposed the strangest words of the week were those NOT heard, > as NBC censored Kanye West's comments" > > -- "5/8 of Bush's emergency management appointees had no experience" These are all things I received from readers such as yourself, and I always ask if they want a credit line before putting any attributions. Often I receive no answer by time to send. > And are you saying it's *not* your view that the various comments on > how the Katrina relief efforts are going (from the President, VP, and > First Lady) are "doublespeak"? There are several doublespeak lists out there, and I presume lots of this gets forwarded from them. As for my own views, I only put my own views in the [brackets], and try to make them very brief comments. 99% of what you see is lifted straight from sources, and the 1% is usually plainly marked by brackets. > Given that these items appear in 'Michael Hart's "Founder's Comments" > section of the Newsletter', I think the natural inference is that any > un-attributed comments are yours, and represent your views. My views usually appear in the [brackets], which is usually stated each time, whether such [brackets] are used or not at the time. In the same vein that I try NOT to choose the books, I also try not to impose my own views on other subjects, or to make it obvious when I feel it is necessary. >> Our readers send me various articles, synopses, URLs, etc., and I >> usually just put them in exactly as I receive them, and sometimes >> I ask our CEO if something should be included. > > And is that the case for any of the items listed above? > >> I am not a political person, I am apolitical to the point of >> anti-political, and I don't have any political agenda, other >> than to stay pretty much as far away from politics as I can get, >> as many people are aware. > > If you were staying as far away from politics as you could get, > you wouldn't be including political items in the newsletter. Obviously some people are going to view something as political that other people don't, but I assure you that my own goals are anything BUT political. >> If you don't like something from one of those articles, the URL is >> usually there, > > There were no URLs or other attribution for the following items: > -- reports of racism in US media > -- New Orleans refugees turned back at Gretna > (other than the attribution of a headline to the LA Times) > -- 40 Died In A Hospital, There Was No Evacuation Plan For Them. > -- Palestinians Burn Gaza Synagogues > -- Comments on How The Katrina Relief Efforts Are Going > -- 5/8 of Bush's emergency management appointees had no experience > -- Meat consumption in China us up 400% in 20 years. > -- One Ohio high school was reported to have 63% of the girls pregnant. > -- In some communities blacks are 9 times as likely to be pulled over > for traffic stops than are whites. > -- Nearly 3/4 of a million dollars for 30 second American Idol ad! Many of these are just snippets I heard while channel surfing, and I couldn't find the direct quotes to use. . .though I do presume they eventually surface on the Web and can be found via most of the various search engines, though I, personally, do not subscribe to those that require subscriptions, so I do not always find things from those sources. Some are from multiple surfed news shows, but I still didn't find the orginal source. I don't even know which network American Idol is on, but I'm sure this is something they promoted heavily enough, since I heard it twice. . .and actually made a correction, since I wrote it down wrong the first time around. $560,000 for Desperate Housewives, not ~$600,000, or perhaps the second report was just being more accurate. >> Please note that no mention was made of the political events of >> Michael Brown, > > What about this?: > "Michael Brown was simply the college roommate of the original > FEMA chief, not other recommendation or expertise, not even a > real job on his resume, other than the Arabian Horse group." That was from before his removal from New Orleans and resignation. >> Judge Roberts, etc., or similar political "hot buttons." > > So if you quote someone as saying "George Bush doesn't care about black > people", you think that *isn't* a political hot button? Actually, it was the censorship I tried pointing out, not the statement. The whole reason for pointing out what doesn't get covered is to avoid the censorship in the news. From hart at pglaf.org Thu Sep 15 22:00:15 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu Sep 15 22:00:16 2005 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <6d99d1fd050915152172289c22@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> <6d99d1fd050915152172289c22@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, David Starner wrote: > On 9/15/05, Michael Hart wrote: >> As you can see, most of the Newsletter is automated, >> or could/should be, and most of the rest is simply cut and pasted. > > I don't see the value in an automated, cut and pasted newsletter > filled with anything but a simple list of the new books. Then you probably want PT2 and/or the Monthly Newsletter. From tb at baechler.net Thu Sep 15 22:02:44 2005 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Thu Sep 15 22:02:32 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] a new DVD In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050915131049.04e203f0@mail.fireantproductions. com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050915213557.0d495dc0@bisinc.us> Hello. I would like to respond to a few points here that you mentioned. First, I am blind also so I have the same bias as you. We need to face facts. The PG collection is now so big that one DVD won't hold everything. You found that out with just including books from DP. Even if we throw away the pictures, audio, and everything except plain ASCII text, it's just not going to fit. I have experimented with this and as near as I could tell it would take at least 4-6 CDs when there were about 11,000 books. Allowing for growth being what it is, and again only including plain 7-bit ASCII as I have, I just see no way of doing this and keeping it maintained. It would be possible maybe for this moment, but in a year it won't be so this is something which needs to be considered now. Second, about the pictures. I see no reason not to include them on the DVD sets. They are not that large and are often necessary to the enjoyment of the books. Even for plain text novels, they can add something. For magazines, they can be essential since there are articles discussing them and it's expected that you will view them while you read the article. Look at Scientific American Supplement for this. I don't consider not including illustrations to be an option. Again, the fact is that even if we squeezed everything on one DVD and throw away html, accented texts, sound, and everything else, fairly soon it won't fit. Since we are now talking about either two DVDs or a double layer, we might as well include pictures, html, and accents. Besides, two DVDs look bigger than one even if the contents are the same. I suppose one possibility would be to offer two different DVDs, one with just plain text for the blind or others with old computers and another with pictures, html, and accents. People could pick what they wanted at the time they fill out the form and you could send them one or the other. Finally, about a new CD. I think keeping CDs up to date is much more important than people believe. I think that for CDs, we shouldn't worry as much about illustrations but should include zipped html. As someone pointed out, 7-zip for Windows is free and lets you view inside of zip files. Just create a page that comes up in the browser telling people that the files on the CD are zipped. Install the 7-zip package in the root directory first and have fun looking at the books. The problem is that you have to manually open each book and look at each image. They don't extract at the same time as they should since it makes a temporary directory and only extracts one file at a time. The XP unzip feature of Windows Explorer does allow extracting all files though and has similar functionality. Linux of course has an unzip utility too so we aren't excluding people. Even the Apple IIgs has an unzip program. The reason why we really need to make sure the CDs are kept current is that giving away a CD is very easy and almost anyone can use it. Many computers don't have DVD readers although the newer ones do. Also, if you release a new CD on a quarterly basis, people think that they are getting the very latest PG books sent to them in one nice form. That of course is true and that's the general idea, but I'm not sure that there would be enough books every quarter to fill a CD every time. Maybe release a CD every 1,000 books. That unfortunately would mean about 15 CDs not counting audio. However, I definitely think that CDs need to be very actively maintained to keep interest up in PG. People will come back if they know there is something new and if they don't have to hunt for it. Heck, splash the availability of the CD on the front page. That could be even better. I don't think the DVD needs to be kept as current. First, it is very difficult to download a 4.7 gb file and burn it. I would like to have all of PG on a DVD but I'm certainly not going to download such a huge file. Yes, it was split into pieces but they have to be recombined and that's way too much effort for me. Second, since we have the iso creator this can be done more on demand. Finally, we have lots of space to work with so if we add 2,000 or 3,000 books at a time it's not a big problem as it would be with a CD since they might not fit. The only thing I suggest on the CD is to break books down into categories. Folders like etext00 etc are not useful to the end user. Something even very broad like "fiction" and "nonfiction" would help. If it could be broken down further such as by magazine, mystery, gardening, etc that would be even better. I have used PG off and on since 1995 and I found it confusing to try to figure out what etext90 and etext91 were. I would much rather have had a nice CD set with works broken down by author or category. I know that _Oliver Twist_ is in a directory called Dickens instead of etext96. Likewise with Mark Twain. Maybe this is already being done, I don't know. I have everything locally so I haven't bothered with a CD image. Also, how hard would it be with the new iso creator to break it down by specific magazines? Have for example magazines/Atlantic_Monthly, magazines/Punch, etc. You could call them periodicals too I suppose. Of course also make sure to put GUTINDEX.ALL in the root so everyone knows how much is available. That's my two cents worth. From hart at pglaf.org Thu Sep 15 22:04:28 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu Sep 15 22:04:30 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Clearance question - Mein Kampf In-Reply-To: <4329EC31.9030000@perathoner.de> References: <000c01c5b947$dd448900$d59495ce@gw98> <4329E6F3.1050303@bohol.ph> <4329EC31.9030000@perathoner.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Jeroen Hellingman (Mailing List Account) wrote: > >> The copyright issue is unclear. It probably is still in copyright in the >> US, but there will probably be nobody who has standing to sue for >> copyright infringment. In Germany, the state of Bavaria has confiscated >> the copyrights, but it has no legal power to confiscate copyrights outside >> its jurisdiction. > > Many German lawyers argue that Bavaria had no right to confiscate the > copyrights ... but this is immaterial. > > "Mein Kampf" was written in 1924 and Hitler died in 1945, so copyright has > not expired in the US and in Europe. Actually, many countried in Europe are still "life +50" or so I am told, perhaps even half the countries in the world where this copyright would already have expired, and some are "life +60" which would make this one expire about now. mh From tb at baechler.net Thu Sep 15 22:09:56 2005 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Thu Sep 15 22:09:45 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] new CD compilation In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050915142545.0202b008@mail.fireantproductions. com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050915220741.2dde2ac0@bisinc.us> Hi. I would suggest classical music and MIDI files. I would also suggest looking at the Edison files but many of those are English only. The classical music is just music with no words so that shouldn't cause a problem. Unfortunately not all classical music is available in one format. Some is in MIDI, some in a special xml for music, some in one version of Finally and some in a newer version. There are a couple in mp3 too. At 02:30 PM 9/15/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I'd like to also add some books which are unrestricted by language >barriers. Any suggestions? I've already put the Hand Shadows book on >there, but would be interested to hear any more ideas. We've got about >75MB left to fill. Perhaps some of the music files. From hart at pglaf.org Thu Sep 15 22:45:33 2005 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu Sep 15 22:45:35 2005 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Scott Lawton wrote: > Michael Hart typed: >> None of these are my views, none written by me, or at my instigation. > > ??? > > That's certainly not how it looks from the newsletter. And, independent of > who wrote them, someone chose to include many, many items that have nothing > to do with PG (and chose particular items that reflect a specific worldview). If you send something you would like included, it will probably appear. We get lots of these, often several people send in the same piece, or make references to it. >> I am not a political person, I am apolitical to the point of anti-political, >> and I don't have any political agenda, other than to stay pretty much as far >> away from politics as I can get, as many people are aware. > > I'm not sure what you mean by "political", but there sure is an awful lot in > the newsletter that would fall under what many (most?) people would call > "politics" or "the political realm". > > Still, if the word "politics" is a stumbling block, how about "current events > that are unrelated to PG". The newsletter has always had far too much of > that (IMHO). Obviously the current situation has a lot more political people in or out of the news, usually it's not quite so thick. >> If you don't like something from one of those articles, the URL is usually >> there, and you are more than encouraged to send letters to the editors, and >> we will be only too glad to post any such letters that are published, and >> perhaps even some that haven't been [I'll probably ask our CEO first]. > > i.e. you're inviting even MORE coverage of politics (er, current events)? It's pretty much up to our readers, as we tend to include what they talk about, however straight political polemics are not our forte. >> We've been quoting Edupage and/or Newsscan for years without any mention >> from a single one of our readers > > That may well be true, though doesn't indicate whether readers would (in > general) prefer a PG-specific newsletter vs. the current expanded version. That's why we have several different newsletters. > Just as one example, I've never spoken out against the newsletter since I'm > not willing to edit it and am happy just to ignore it. But, now that the > subject has been raised.... > > I suspect that many people would read a short, focused newsletter that > emphasized "what's new" at the top. If someone would care to create such a newsletter, we would be only too happy to send it out. > I'm pretty skeptical how many people are fans of the tedious stats and other > repeition; if they were moved to a separate newsletter, how many would > subscribe? Again, that's why we have tried the various separations. There is no need for anyone to even open the parts they don't want to see. For some the stats and lists are the most important part, you just never know until they email you. mh From jmdyck at ibiblio.org Fri Sep 16 01:21:51 2005 From: jmdyck at ibiblio.org (Michael Dyck) Date: Fri Sep 16 01:24:01 2005 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> <4329C588.84695ED3@ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <432A809F.CAF75FD7@ibiblio.org> Michael Hart wrote: > > On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Michael Dyck wrote: > > > Michael Hart wrote: > >> > >> None of these are my views, none written by me, or at my instigation. > > > > So are you saying that you did *not* write the following sentences, and > > that they do *not* reflect your views? > > > > -- "No mention is made of what to do about those for whom no > > transportation is available. . .those were obviously beneath the > > radar scope of planning." > > > > -- "Somehow it seems that those farthest from the situation are the > > only ones willing to state what is obvious locally." > > > > -- "I supposed the strangest words of the week were those NOT heard, > > as NBC censored Kanye West's comments" > > > > -- "5/8 of Bush's emergency management appointees had no experience" > > These are all things I received from readers such as yourself, (no, not such as myself) > and I always ask if they want a credit line before putting any > attributions. Often I receive no answer by time to send. Let me see if I've got this straight. From out of the blue, people send you these items (including opinions and first-person statements, with no references to back them up), and ask you to include them in the PG newsletter (without credit). You do so (putting them in the Founder's Comments section), even though the items: 1) have nothing to do with Project Gutenberg, 2) do not represent your views, and 3) go counter to your desire to "stay pretty much as far away from politics as I can get". This seems rather irresponsible to me. Is there anything preventing the PG newsletter from becoming a mouthpiece for every nutbar who has your email address? (I'm tempted to submit an item saying "Jefferson was the Antichrist! Democracy is fascism! Black is white! Night is day!".) > > Given that these items appear in 'Michael Hart's "Founder's Comments" > > section of the Newsletter', I think the natural inference is that any > > un-attributed comments are yours, and represent your views. > > My views usually appear in the [brackets], which is usually stated > each time, whether such [brackets] are used or not at the time. What is usually stated is this: *Headline News from Edupage [PG Editor's Comments In Brackets] (followed by Edupage items) which indicates to me that the editor's-comments-in-brackets convention only applies to the Edupage section. If you want the unattributed statements/opinions to *not* be ascribed to you, I think you need to be a lot clearer about it than you are currently. > > If you were staying as far away from politics as you could get, > > you wouldn't be including political items in the newsletter. > > Obviously some people are going to view something as political > that other people don't, Okay, then let me rephrase: If you were staying as far away from politics as you could get, you wouldn't be including items that some people are going to view as political. > but I assure you that my own goals are anything BUT political. Well, what *are* your goals? (With respect to these items.) Do you think your actions are effective in furthering those goals? > > So if you quote someone as saying "George Bush doesn't care about black > > people", you think that *isn't* a political hot button? > > Actually, it was the censorship I tried pointing out, not the statement. > > The whole reason for pointing out what doesn't get covered is to avoid > the censorship in the news. I don't think you answered my question. -Michael From ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca Fri Sep 16 11:49:30 2005 From: ag737 at freenet.carleton.ca (Wallace J.McLean) Date: Fri Sep 16 11:50:45 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Clearance question - Mein Kampf Message-ID: <155183152d89.152d89155183@ncf.ca> Michael Hart ?crit : > Actually, many countried in Europe are still "life +50" or so I am told, > perhaps even half the countries in the world where this copyright would > already have expired, and some are "life +60" > which would make this one expire about now. Last year I drew up a table showing the breakdown of terms under national law around the world. At that time, there were 79 life+50 countries, with 53% of the global population, compared to 51 life+70 countries, with 21% of the population. In Europe, at the time I drafted my table, the remaining life+50 countries were Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Iceland, Moldova, Serbia and Montenegro, and Ukraine. Other than Iceland, only the former Communist world is still under the Berne term, and with Russia caving in, I fear the rest won't be too long to follow, esp. those which are itching for EU membership. If anyone knows for a fact that the situation has changed in any of these countries, lemme know. With Russia's move to life+70, on the global figures you drop one, add one, and change the relative percentages to 51% vs. 23%. For four percent of the world's population, I can't find the term. These are mainly small African, Asian, and Pacific countries. India makes up the biggest chunk of the rest, with its idiosyncratic life+60 rule. There are a handful of countries, mainly in the middle east, with ok, my file now validates to html 4.01 (circa 1998) and to html 3.2 (circa 1996), so i'm satisfied i have enough backwards compatibility. ;+) of course, it also runs in the browser you're running today, and the one you'll run next year, and the year after that. and it's got all the e-book functionality that one can reasonably expect from a web-browser. thanks for all your help! :+) -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050916/8372935b/attachment.html From prosfilaes at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 16:37:47 2005 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Fri Sep 16 16:37:59 2005 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> <6d99d1fd050915152172289c22@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d99d1fd050916163730fe0849@mail.gmail.com> On 9/16/05, Michael Hart wrote: > On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, David Starner wrote: > > On 9/15/05, Michael Hart wrote: > >> As you can see, most of the Newsletter is automated, > >> or could/should be, and most of the rest is simply cut and pasted. > > > > I don't see the value in an automated, cut and pasted newsletter > > filled with anything but a simple list of the new books. > > Then you probably want PT2 and/or the Monthly Newsletter. So there's no Project Gutenberg news? I want to keep up on Project Gutenberg news; shouldn't the newsletter provide that? From cannona at fireantproductions.com Fri Sep 16 19:04:40 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Fri Sep 16 19:05:30 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] a new DVD In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050915213557.0d495dc0@bisinc.us> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050915131049.04e203f0@mail.fireantproductions. com> <5.2.0.9.0.20050915213557.0d495dc0@bisinc.us> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050916205650.034e33a0@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 You bring up another alternative I have considered. That is creating a multiple DVD set. The problem I see with this is in the free disc giveaway. Right now we send out a DVD and an extra disc for them to give to a friend. Adding more discs is obviously going to increase the costs while almost certainly doing away with the extra disc. It's the give away project I was thinking of when I was talking about cramming as many books on a DVD. Obviously, for the people who can download, we can create as many ISOS as we want. Thoughts? Sincerely Aaron Cannon At 12:02 AM 9/16/2005, you wrote: >Hello. I would like to respond to a few points here that you >mentioned. First, I am blind also so I have the same bias as you. > >We need to face facts. The PG collection is now so big that one DVD won't >hold everything. You found that out with just including books from >DP. Even if we throw away the pictures, audio, and everything except >plain ASCII text, it's just not going to fit. I have experimented with >this and as near as I could tell it would take at least 4-6 CDs when there >were about 11,000 books. Allowing for growth being what it is, and again >only including plain 7-bit ASCII as I have, I just see no way of doing >this and keeping it maintained. It would be possible maybe for this >moment, but in a year it won't be so this is something which needs to be >considered now. > >Second, about the pictures. I see no reason not to include them on the >DVD sets. They are not that large and are often necessary to the >enjoyment of the books. Even for plain text novels, they can add >something. For magazines, they can be essential since there are articles >discussing them and it's expected that you will view them while you read >the article. Look at Scientific American Supplement for this. I don't >consider not including illustrations to be an option. Again, the fact is >that even if we squeezed everything on one DVD and throw away html, >accented texts, sound, and everything else, fairly soon it won't >fit. Since we are now talking about either two DVDs or a double layer, we >might as well include pictures, html, and accents. Besides, two DVDs look >bigger than one even if the contents are the same. I suppose one >possibility would be to offer two different DVDs, one with just plain text >for the blind or others with old computers and another with pictures, >html, and accents. People could pick what they wanted at the time they >fill out the form and you could send them one or the other. > >Finally, about a new CD. I think keeping CDs up to date is much more >important than people believe. I think that for CDs, we shouldn't worry >as much about illustrations but should include zipped html. As someone >pointed out, 7-zip for Windows is free and lets you view inside of zip >files. Just create a page that comes up in the browser telling people >that the files on the CD are zipped. Install the 7-zip package in the >root directory first and have fun looking at the books. The problem is >that you have to manually open each book and look at each image. They >don't extract at the same time as they should since it makes a temporary >directory and only extracts one file at a time. The XP unzip feature of >Windows Explorer does allow extracting all files though and has similar >functionality. Linux of course has an unzip utility too so we aren't >excluding people. Even the Apple IIgs has an unzip program. The reason >why we really need to make sure the CDs are kept current is that giving >away a CD is very easy and almost anyone can use it. Many computers don't >have DVD readers although the newer ones do. Also, if you release a new >CD on a quarterly basis, people think that they are getting the very >latest PG books sent to them in one nice form. That of course is true and >that's the general idea, but I'm not sure that there would be enough books >every quarter to fill a CD every time. Maybe release a CD every 1,000 >books. That unfortunately would mean about 15 CDs not counting >audio. However, I definitely think that CDs need to be very actively >maintained to keep interest up in PG. People will come back if they know >there is something new and if they don't have to hunt for it. Heck, >splash the availability of the CD on the front page. That could be even >better. > >I don't think the DVD needs to be kept as current. First, it is very >difficult to download a 4.7 gb file and burn it. I would like to have all >of PG on a DVD but I'm certainly not going to download such a huge >file. Yes, it was split into pieces but they have to be recombined and >that's way too much effort for me. Second, since we have the iso creator >this can be done more on demand. Finally, we have lots of space to work >with so if we add 2,000 or 3,000 books at a time it's not a big problem as >it would be with a CD since they might not fit. > >The only thing I suggest on the CD is to break books down into >categories. Folders like etext00 etc are not useful to the end >user. Something even very broad like "fiction" and "nonfiction" would >help. If it could be broken down further such as by magazine, mystery, >gardening, etc that would be even better. I have used PG off and on since >1995 and I found it confusing to try to figure out what etext90 and >etext91 were. I would much rather have had a nice CD set with works >broken down by author or category. I know that _Oliver Twist_ is in a >directory called Dickens instead of etext96. Likewise with Mark >Twain. Maybe this is already being done, I don't know. I have everything >locally so I haven't bothered with a CD image. Also, how hard would it be >with the new iso creator to break it down by specific magazines? Have for >example magazines/Atlantic_Monthly, magazines/Punch, etc. You could call >them periodicals too I suppose. Of course also make sure to put >GUTINDEX.ALL in the root so everyone knows how much is available. That's >my two cents worth. > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDK3naI7J99hVZuJcRAjP7AJ4gDutX85/b9BexBdkpjeXmacRl3gCgjfSc iQWzcks57pJ9WINgaOIf120= =G6V3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Bowerbird at aol.com Sat Sep 17 01:01:17 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sat Sep 17 01:01:41 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] a new DVD Message-ID: <76.5bb8fe53.305d274d@aol.com> most of the e-texts have few pictures, or none at all. put all of these on one d.v.d. for the remaining e-texts, sort them into categories, and put one (or more, related) categories on a d.v.d. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050917/ee172ccd/attachment.html From tb at baechler.net Sat Sep 17 07:41:02 2005 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Sat Sep 17 07:40:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] a new DVD In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050916205650.034e33a0@mail.fireantproductions. com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050915213557.0d495dc0@bisinc.us> <6.2.1.2.0.20050915131049.04e203f0@mail.fireantproductions. com> <5.2.0.9.0.20050915213557.0d495dc0@bisinc.us> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050917072312.01fc7320@bisinc.us> Hello. You are approaching a multiple DVD set as an alternative. Is there any reason for this? I've read your other comments about special collections of various sorts and wanting to cram as much on one DVD as possible, but you didn't address what I said previously. Eventually, there will be too many books to fit on one DVD even without pictures. Why not start moving towards multiple DVDs now while we can before this is mandatory. Even though you and I are blind, you must still consider that many books are useless without the pictures, not to mention books of pictures only. Also what about the audio files and other items which are usually excluded? You could include everything PG has to offer by using two DVDs. I don't really see this as an alternative, I see this as a requirement. Below, you write: At 09:04 PM 9/16/2005 -0500, you wrote: >You bring up another alternative I have considered. That is creating a >multiple DVD set. The problem I see with this is in the free disc >giveaway. Right now we send out a DVD and an extra disc for them to give >to a friend. Adding more discs is obviously going to increase the costs >while almost certainly doing away with the extra disc. Yes, but how many of those extras are actually being given away? Do people tell you that they are going to give it to someone? In other words, you might be wasting the extra DVD anyway if it isn't being given to someone. I think cost is really a non-issue. On sale, blanks cost 25 cents or less in the US. Even if the cost is just too much, I still think it's worth it even if you can't include a set to be given away. You can always include a note that if someone else wants one, just ask. Another idea would be to start giving away CDs instead of DVDs. Still send out DVD sets when they ask but throw in a CD also for them to give away. That might actually be better if the idea is to let as many people as possible know about PG. If the goal instead is to just give as many books away as possible regardless of how useful they are, then I agree that you should throw away everything but plain 7-bit text and hope for the best. I think that makes PG look bad though since now a lot is available in pdf, html, etc. >It's the give away project I was thinking of when I was talking about >cramming as many books on a DVD. Obviously, for the people who can >download, we can create as many ISOS as we want. I was talking about the give away project also. Again, is the goal to just give as many away in any condition no matter what or is it to give away lots of books in a useful format with pictures to show them that there are thousands of books freely available online? If the former, then forget all I said about multiple DVDs. You're right that pictures are not important. If the later, you should include pictures and html versions at a minimum and break them into multiple DVD sets. That has the advantage of showing people that PG is not in fact just plain text although almost all books are available in that form. I would like to respectfully disagree with something. You seem to think that offering huge ISO images for download is no big deal since anyone with broadband can get them. I have broadband but it takes me a very long time to get a 4.7 GB file. For many people, it really isn't practical to burn their own DVDs. My main computer doesn't have a DVD reader. I have a computer with a DVD burner but it doesn't have enough disk space. There is a huge error rate with a file that size and it is a huge pain to combine that many smaller files. Almost all DVD burning packages are expensive, so it would probably cost more to download and burn your own than to just get one sent. Please try to keep this in mind if you are going to create a bunch of ISOs of various sorts. That isn't the easiest thing in the world for people to use. CD images of course are much easier and more practical. Finally, I'm curious about something. Since you are blind, are you putting labels on the DVDs? Are you making labels? I have never found an accessible program to make disc labels. The best I found was covers which I don't want. I would love to find a CD/DVD label making program which I can actually use. From cannona at fireantproductions.com Sat Sep 17 10:02:03 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Sat Sep 17 10:15:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] a new DVD In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050917072312.01fc7320@bisinc.us> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050915213557.0d495dc0@bisinc.us> <6.2.1.2.0.20050915131049.04e203f0@mail.fireantproductions. com> <5.2.0.9.0.20050915213557.0d495dc0@bisinc.us> <5.2.0.9.0.20050917072312.01fc7320@bisinc.us> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050917111711.035e2b20@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 09:41 AM 9/17/2005, you wrote: >Hello. You are approaching a multiple DVD set as an alternative. Is >there any reason for this? I've read your other comments about special >collections of various sorts and wanting to cram as much on one DVD as >possible, but you didn't address what I said previously. I'm approaching every option as an alternative. I was just throwing one possible solution out there for discussion. >Eventually, there will be too many books to fit on one DVD even without >pictures. Why not start moving towards multiple DVDs now while we can >before this is mandatory. Even though you and I are blind, you must still >consider that many books are useless without the pictures, not to mention >books of pictures only. Also what about the audio files and other items >which are usually excluded? You could include everything PG has to offer >by using two DVDs. I don't really see this as an alternative, I see this >as a requirement. Below, you write: A compilation of all of the zip files of Project Gutenberg would require at least three DVDs. This is not including the Human Genome, nor the audio books. Including those would require many more. >Yes, but how many of those extras are actually being given away? Do >people tell you that they are going to give it to someone? In other >words, you might be wasting the extra DVD anyway if it isn't being given >to someone. I think cost is really a non-issue. On sale, blanks cost 25 >cents or less in the US. The cost of the discs isn't as much an issue as is the postage. I don't know what is happening to the extra discs, but I would imagine that a good number of them are being given away. However, this is pure speculation. Perhaps a survey would help. The only problem with that is that I don't know if we have permission to do so. When we collect their information, we tell them that "we won't use it for any other purpose." >Even if the cost is just too much, I still think it's worth it even if you >can't include a set to be given away. You can always include a note that >if someone else wants one, just ask. Another idea would be to start >giving away CDs instead of DVDs. Still send out DVD sets when they ask >but throw in a CD also for them to give away. That might actually be >better if the idea is to let as many people as possible know about PG. Sorry I wasn't more clear on this. If a person requests a dvd, we always send a CD along with it. The only time we send 2 DVDs is when they specifically request two. Finally, if they request a CD, we send two. So, no matter what, we always send two discs. This keeps the weight of the envelopes at almost exactly 2 ounces. >If the goal instead is to just give as many books away as possible >regardless of how useful they are, then I agree that you should throw away >everything but plain 7-bit text and hope for the best. I think that makes >PG look bad though since now a lot is available in pdf, html, etc. And here we are back at the original question. Do we send out as many books as we can, or do we send out a collection of the "best" books, even if that means we send out less? If the latter, how do we decide which to include and which to ignore? >I was talking about the give away project also. Again, is the goal to >just give as many away in any condition no matter what or is it to give >away lots of books in a useful format with pictures to show them that >there are thousands of books freely available online? If the former, then >forget all I said about multiple DVDs. You're right that pictures are not >important. If the later, you should include pictures and html versions at >a minimum and break them into multiple DVD sets. That has the advantage >of showing people that PG is not in fact just plain text although almost >all books are available in that form. Don't ask me. I just burn them and mail them. :) >I would like to respectfully disagree with something. You seem to think >that offering huge ISO images for download is no big deal since anyone >with broadband can get them. I have broadband but it takes me a very long >time to get a 4.7 GB file. For many people, it really isn't practical to >burn their own DVDs. My main computer doesn't have a DVD reader. I have >a computer with a DVD burner but it doesn't have enough disk space. There >is a huge error rate with a file that size and it is a huge pain to >combine that many smaller files. Almost all DVD burning packages are >expensive, so it would probably cost more to download and burn your own >than to just get one sent. This seems to very widely from person to person. For some, errors are a huge issue. For others, they are not, either because they have a better connection or because they use a protocol which eliminates them, such as BitTorrent. Likewise, for many people, drive space isn't a problem, and the cheap burners that they bought for $35 came with a program which lets them burn the ISO, while others don't have these luxuries. So, you are correct that not everyone with broadband and a burner can make their own DVD. It requires a bit more than that, not to mention a bit of technical know-how. Also, when you say (and I'm paraphrasing) it would be cheaper to have one sent, I would ask, cheaper for whom? We are not currently charging for the discs we send. We are instead relying strictly on donations. >Please try to keep this in mind if you are going to create a bunch of ISOs >of various sorts. That isn't the easiest thing in the world for people to >use. CD images of course are much easier and more practical. I don't follow what you mean here. An ISO file is a way of storing a CD image. >Finally, I'm curious about something. Since you are blind, are you >putting labels on the DVDs? Are you making labels? I have never found an >accessible program to make disc labels. The best I found was covers which >I don't want. I would love to find a CD/DVD label making program which I >can actually use. Actually, we are keeping costs down as much as possible. Most of our volunteers are just writing on the disc. In my case, this is how my wife contributes to the project. Another reason we don't include labels is because they have been shown to warp discs over time. Anyway, I don't know what the ideal solution is. That's why we are having this discussion. I am not set on any particular solution which has been offered. I just want something that is practical to compile, update and which will keep costs down as much as possible while giving as much value as possible to those who receive it. Sincerely Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDLE8+I7J99hVZuJcRAqCDAJ9TQfjSFiNSa5MU753L9OysrwMPQACaA1Dn znN3A3o+yLo709i7BhKs+wc= =hqSi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cannona at fireantproductions.com Sat Sep 17 10:09:43 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Sat Sep 17 10:15:51 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] a new DVD In-Reply-To: <76.5bb8fe53.305d274d@aol.com> References: <76.5bb8fe53.305d274d@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050917120825.03bcbdb0@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The first task is easy. The second, not so much because the catalog doesn't yet contain categorical data for each title. This of course is not the fault of the catalog staff. They are quite overworked as it is. Sincerely Aaron Cannon At 03:01 AM 9/17/2005, you wrote: >most of the e-texts have few pictures, or none at all. >put all of these on one d.v.d. > >for the remaining e-texts, sort them into categories, >and put one (or more, related) categories on a d.v.d. > >-bowerbird >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDLE9BI7J99hVZuJcRAsfkAKDc9doMktmctWF8vDTj3CP1cHEHHgCgz3A8 4JANFcXmvu/CkVGcBU8uv78= =olYY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Bowerbird at aol.com Sat Sep 17 12:45:53 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sat Sep 17 12:46:08 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] plain-text files, pictures, and other formats Message-ID: <1de.439ebd39.305dcc71@aol.com> it won't be long at all before you have examples right in front of you of what i've said all along: plain-text files, done right, can be your "master", generating all the other formats your users want. this bears on the d.v.d. issue, because it means that you won't need to include anything but the plain-text files and the pictures, for most e-texts. someone who wants an .html version, or a .pdf, or an .rtf, will be able to generate it themselves, using the exact specs they want (font, size, etc.), using an interface tool included right on the d.v.d. there is one problem that still stands in the way: your plain-text files are _not_ being "done right". for the most part, they are very close, but there is one huge exception. your plain-text files do not have any indication of which picture-file is included where. it is typical to mark the spot of an illustration with: > [illustration: this is the caption of the picture.] but if you look at that, you'll see that -- although it nicely tells users that "a picture goes right here" -- it doesn't tell them _the_filename_ of that picture! at first, i thought this was just a simple "oversight", based on the fact that most plain-text viewers won't automatically incorporate pictures into their display... (i should note that, over here on the mac platform, the standard text-editor will indeed incorporate them, and has for about a decade. even though it does so rather clumsily, implementation-wise, it's not unknown.) anyway, i believed when i notified the people in charge that my viewer-program will happily display a picture at the point where it should be included, if they'd just include the _name_ of the picture-file it should display -- because otherwise, how would it know which one? -- that they would say, "hey, that's cool, thank you", and start putting the picture's filename in the illustration tag. amazingly, though, for reasons that i still cannot fathom, when i politely asked that this change in policy be made, the reply was a brusque "no". not only that, but when i persisted, thinking there was a simple misunderstanding, because why would they reject such a sensible suggestion, the responses got increasing hostile. and i was perplexed... leaving their hostility aside, i am still trying to be polite here. it _makes_sense_ to include the filename in the illustration tag. even the readers of a plain-text file might want to know exactly which illustration it was that goes in that spot, might they not? after all, why even tell them that "a graphic was placed here", if you're not going to inform them _which_ graphic that it was? it seems -- i don't know -- a little _silly_ to do that, doesn't it? and it makes even more sense to include the graphic filenames once you're aware of a viewer-program that will splice them in the display of the plain-text file, don't you think? i certainly do. and the real kicker here is that this graphic-filename information is _already_being_generated_, for construction of the .html file! but it is being _willfully_discarded_ from the plain-ascii file! why? i'm not asking anyone to do any extra work to include the names; in fact, it takes an extra step of work to toss out this information! why is this _useful_information_ being _intentionally_ thrown out? (i wrote a program to recover the filenames from the .html file, so i've now engineered a workaround to this problem for myself, but i wonder why it is you'd throw info away in the first place...) and so i submit -- once again -- my request to change this policy. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050917/9d69f30f/attachment.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Sat Sep 17 12:52:50 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sat Sep 17 12:53:05 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] a new DVD Message-ID: <202.a4f8f14.305dce12@aol.com> aaron said: > The first task is easy. right. and thus your first d.v.d. -- the one with all the e-texts that have few pictures, or none at all -- is set. > The second, not so much because > the catalog doesn't yet contain > categorical data for each title. at this point in time, i would guess that any e-text that doesn't go on the first d.v.d. (because it has more than a few pictures in it) would go on the second d.v.d. so it's set too... a third d.v.d. might contain just the audio files. (and nobody wants the human genome files.) -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050917/48d0b565/attachment.html From cannona at fireantproductions.com Sat Sep 17 13:18:16 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Sat Sep 17 13:20:10 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] plain-text files, pictures, and other formats In-Reply-To: <1de.439ebd39.305dcc71@aol.com> References: <1de.439ebd39.305dcc71@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050917151036.020588d8@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 02:45 PM 9/17/2005, you wrote: >it won't be long at all before you have examples >right in front of you of what i've said all along: >plain-text files, done right, can be your "master", >generating all the other formats your users want. > >this bears on the d.v.d. issue, because it means >that you won't need to include anything but the >plain-text files and the pictures, for most e-texts. The future will undoubtedly make the inclusion of multiple formats unnecessary. But for the moment, I'm more concerned with the present. >there is one problem that still stands in the way: >your plain-text files are _not_ being "done right". > >for the most part, they are very close, but there is >one huge exception. your plain-text files do not have >any indication of which picture-file is included where. > >it is typical to mark the spot of an illustration with: > > [illustration: this is the caption of the picture.] > >but if you look at that, you'll see that -- although it >nicely tells users that "a picture goes right here" -- >it doesn't tell them _the_filename_ of that picture! You make a good point. However, when there is only one picture it doesn't make much sense. When there are multiple pictures, then I agree. The file names should be referenced in the text, if the picture is in fact referenced at all. For an example of this, check out the BYU Solar Cooker/Cooler. As I recall, the file names are in the text file. I'll allow others to reply to the rest of your message if they wish. It's currently beyond my sphere of work and interest. Sincerely aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDLHpyI7J99hVZuJcRAlSTAKCI43ZeWCRRp/KvNjA0PYEnHwfuAgCgzwnx 9H6asZqz47B759X/jmNjj5Q= =vp7w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From collin at xs4all.nl Sat Sep 17 16:52:20 2005 From: collin at xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) Date: Sat Sep 17 16:35:59 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Librivox audio books Message-ID: <432CC854.22757.1C4C4FE@localhost> A long long time ago, in a land far far away, I went to the Garden of Love--don't know if you remember that. In "Recording our own audio etexts" on this list I suggested that even a badly ennunciating amateur reader might produce audio books that are more pleasing to listen to than the synthesized speech versions that are currently the mainstay of the PG audio book collection. I called for other gutvols to join me in testing out this theory, but the response to that was unfortunately rather timid. If you want to have another chance to participate, now is your chance. A couple of weeks ago somebody started a project called Librivox, which takes Project Gutenberg etexts and lets volunteers record chapters of these books. After a mention on the BoingBoing blog, the project suddenly found itself with loads of volunteers, but of course can always use some more. The recordings themselves are in the public domain, and will be posted at the Internet Archive. If any Distributed Proofreaders want to relive the heady gold rush days of the first Slashdotting of DP, now is your chance, as the folks at Librivox still need to expand the site to allow for the grown volunteer base. -- branko collin collin@xs4all.nl From sly at victoria.tc.ca Sun Sep 18 10:45:23 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Sun Sep 18 10:45:31 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG#14068, Gordon Keith Message-ID: It's interesting to note that we've had a recent large upsurge in how often the book "Gordon Keith" by Thomas Nelson Page has been downloaded. http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/14068 Anyone have an idea why that might be? Andrew From brandon at corruptedtruth.com Sun Sep 18 11:19:41 2005 From: brandon at corruptedtruth.com (Brandon Galbraith) Date: Sun Sep 18 11:19:52 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG#14068, Gordon Keith In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <432DAFBD.1060100@corruptedtruth.com> Can we check the web server referrer logs? -brandon Andrew Sly wrote: >It's interesting to note that we've had a recent large upsurge >in how often the book "Gordon Keith" by Thomas Nelson Page has >been downloaded. http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/14068 > >Anyone have an idea why that might be? > >Andrew >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > > > From distributedmel at gmail.com Sun Sep 18 11:26:38 2005 From: distributedmel at gmail.com (Melissa Er-Raqabi) Date: Sun Sep 18 11:26:45 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG#14068, Gordon Keith In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Being curious, I did a look-see on google, and the first page I went to is the home page of a fellow named Gordon Keith, who links directly to the html for this book, to show everyone how cool he is. http://www.gordonkeith.com/wordpress/ There's also a lady there with very big, very jiggly, barely covered boobs. On 9/18/05, Andrew Sly wrote: > > It's interesting to note that we've had a recent large upsurge > in how often the book "Gordon Keith" by Thomas Nelson Page has > been downloaded. http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/14068 > > Anyone have an idea why that might be? > > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From prosfilaes at gmail.com Sun Sep 18 17:14:06 2005 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Sun Sep 18 17:14:19 2005 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <6d99d1fd05091817145644bfea@mail.gmail.com> On 9/15/05, Michael Hart wrote: > All of the "hot button" issues are simply taken from the lower echelon > media coverage to point out how much they have been hidden, which is the > primary point, not the actual content. However, if you have issues with > the actual content, perhaps a letter to this Newsletter, as well as to > the original media source would engender a conversation. Again, I would > have to run this by our CEO. I just pulled the part 1A of the Newsletter out of my spam filter, and was somewhat appalled by the inaccuracies of the news. Surely you could have looked up the Snopes page on the black looting/white finding issue and see that only one was from AP. If you look at it now, you'll see that the circumstances were different. . Or attributing Esquivalience to the New Oxford English Dictionary, when in fact it's in the New Oxford American Dictionary . I don't think it helps Project Gutenberg's reputation to be forwarding poorly checked "hidden" news. From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sun Sep 18 17:49:01 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sun Sep 18 17:49:02 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Fw: Clearance question - Mein Kampf In-Reply-To: <6d99d1fd050914132758a4c69c@mail.gmail.com> References: <000c01c5b947$dd448900$d59495ce@gw98> <6d99d1fd050914132758a4c69c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050919004901.GB12098@pglaf.org> On Wed, Sep 14, 2005 at 03:27:30PM -0500, David Starner wrote: > On 9/14/05, N Wolcott wrote: > > Curiously the Fredonia edition of Mein Kampf, translated by James Murphy, is > > listed as "Currently, item can be shipped only within the U.S. ". This would > > seem to indicate no copyright in the US but perhaps copyright in EU. More > > grist for the mill. > > I don't see any reason why Mein Kampf would be out of copyright in the > US. It was under copyright in Germany in 1998, hence the URAA returned > it to copyright in the US. There is no clear copyright owner, but that > doesn't mean that no one owns the copyright. Given that there are many > copies of this on the net, I don't see any particular reason why PG > should push the envelope here. Right. There's really no envelope to push: according to all the rules we use, this title is still under copyright protection in the US. Not being able to find the rights owner would be relevant under some of Title 17 Section 108 USC, but only applies for very limited distribution (like a library making a photocopy, not putting it on the Web). There might some changes to the US laws that will allow us to treat such copyrighted items as though they are public domain in some ways (i.e., unlimited redistribution), but today there are no such exceptions that we can apply to PG. When PG makes a "public domain" determination on an item, you can "take it to the bank." We don't add stuff to the PG collection just because it's available electronically, or because other folks are getting away with it. We're definitely interested in pushing the envelope, but in this case I don't much latitude. -- Greg From jon at noring.name Sun Sep 18 19:02:09 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Sun Sep 18 19:02:25 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happened to the newsletter? In-Reply-To: <6d99d1fd05091817145644bfea@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914145945.04a114e8@mail.fireantproductions.com> <6d99d1fd05091817145644bfea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1095199553.20050918200209@noring.name> Michael Hart wrote: > All of the "hot button" issues are simply taken from the lower echelon > media coverage to point out how much they have been hidden, which is the > primary point, not the actual content. However, if you have issues with > the actual content, perhaps a letter to this Newsletter, as well as to > the original media source would engender a conversation. Again, I would > have to run this by our CEO. Shouldn't the purpose of the weekly PG newsletter be to only communicate news directly relevant to PG's activities? Let me suggest that the PG community be properly polled, asking them what *they* would like the newsletter to contain, its total length, etc. Then structure the newsletter per the prevailing view. It's clear that quite a few major PG and DP volunteers don't read the newsletter any more, and some have cited the length and the inclusion of stuff not related to PG as factors. To not listen to them is sort of self-defeating, since PG *is* the many volunteers who contribute thousands of hours of time to the cause. Jon From lee at novomail.net Mon Sep 19 10:14:41 2005 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Mon Sep 19 10:14:53 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] TEI and CSS Message-ID: <432EF201.6000409@novomail.net> As threatened, I have started preparing a CSS file that will allow TEI files, at least PG-TEI files, to be displayed natively in a web browser. I started with html4.css, which can be found on the w3c web site, and which purports to be a style sheet reflecting the prevailing implementation of HTML styles by common web browsers. I began replacing HTML tags with their more-or-less-corresponding TEI tags, and continued by tweaking the actual styles associated with them, principally by replacing absolute sizes (e.g. 1.17) with relative sizes (e.g. 125%). By the time I got done, there was virtually nothing left of the original HTML styles. The principal work in creating the style sheet was in determining which TEI tags suggested a block presentation, which tags suggested an inline presentation, and which tags are primarily "metadataish" and which should not be displayed at all (but which are useful, if not essential, for creating catalogs). Most of the tags fell easily into one of these three categories (ignoring, for the moment, tables) but some are somewhat ambiguous; I made a judgement call with these tags, recognizing that someone else's judgment is probably equally valid. Of particular interest are quotations. TEI has two tags for quotations, one apparently for long quotations () and one apparently for short quotations, (). I opted to treat as block-level tags (similar to the HTML
) and as inline (similar to the HTML ). To test the CSS file, I grabbed Mr. Perathoner's version of _Alice in Wonderland_ from http://www.gutenberg.org/tei/marcello/0.3/examples/alice/, and added an 'xml-stylesheet' declaration including 'pgtei.css'. There were a few constructs in the file which needed styling, so I also created a document-specific CSS file (alice.css) and linked to that as well. While Mr. Perathoner's version of _Alice_ has a fairly complete section, it did not have a title page; in my pgtei.css file I set to "display:none", and added a to the file. I also fixed a small number of abuses of the

tag, and changed the tag for block-style quotations from to . The resulting file can be found at http://www.passkeysoft.com/~lee/alice.xml. The resulting XML+CSS renders quite nicely in both Opera 7.4 and Firefox 1.0.4. It does _not_ render quite so well in Internet Explorer 6.0.29. Apparently IE does not support the CSS :before or :after pseudo-selectors, causing the file to lose quotation marks, nor does it correctly interpret the *[attribute~="value"] syntax, making such markup as 'rend="italic"' or 'rend="center"' inoperative. The biggest obstacle remains how to make the images appear; I haven't yet found anything in the CSS spec that will permit this. The CSS file can be found at http://www.passkeysoft.com/~lee/pgtei.css. Comments are solicited. From walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl Mon Sep 19 10:32:23 2005 From: walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl (Walter van Holst) Date: Mon Sep 19 10:32:31 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] TEI and CSS In-Reply-To: <432EF201.6000409@novomail.net> References: <432EF201.6000409@novomail.net> Message-ID: <432EF627.9070501@xs4all.nl> Lee Passey wrote: > The resulting XML+CSS renders quite nicely in both Opera 7.4 and > Firefox 1.0.4. It does _not_ render quite so well in Internet Explorer > 6.0.29. Apparently IE does not support the CSS :before or :after > pseudo-selectors, causing the file to lose quotation marks, nor does > it correctly interpret the *[attribute~="value"] syntax, making such > markup as 'rend="italic"' or 'rend="center"' inoperative. Safari gives the following errors: his page contains the following errors: error on line 195 at column 264: Entity 'nbsp' not defined error on line 199 at column 293: Entity 'mdash' not defined error on line 200 at column 299: Entity 'nbsp' not defined error on line 208 at column 333: Entity 'nbsp' not defined error on line 210 at column 362: Entity 'mdash' not defined error on line 213 at column 371: Entity 'nbsp' not defined error on line 399 at column 973: Entity 'nbsp' not defined error on line 414 at column 41: Entity 'emsp' not defined error on line 415 at column 59: Entity 'emsp' not defined error on line 416 at column 89: Entity 'emsp' not defined error on line 446 at column 196: Entity 'nbsp' not defined error on line 470 at column 289: Entity 'nbsp' not defined error on line 473 at column 302: Entity 'nbsp' not defined error on line 477 at column 315: Entity 'nbsp' not defined error on line 479 at column 347: Entity 'nbsp' not defined error on line 482 at column 369: Entity 'nbsp' not defined error on line 487 at column 416: Entity 'emsp' not defined error on line 489 at column 434: Entity 'emsp' not defined error on line 494 at column 470: Entity 'emsp' not defined error on line 496 at column 496: Entity 'emsp' not defined error on line 509 at column 538: Entity 'nbsp' not defined error on line 570 at column 748: Entity 'nbsp' not defined error on line 571 at column 774: Entity 'nbsp' not defined error on line 596 at column 892: Entity 'nbsp' not defined error on line 597 at column 918: Entity 'nbsp' not defined Apart from that it looks rather nice. Regards, Walter From sly at victoria.tc.ca Mon Sep 19 10:48:52 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Mon Sep 19 10:49:01 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] TEI and CSS In-Reply-To: <432EF201.6000409@novomail.net> References: <432EF201.6000409@novomail.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Sep 2005, Lee Passey wrote: > interest are quotations. TEI has two tags for quotations, one apparently > for long quotations () and one apparently for short quotations, > (). I opted to treat as block-level tags (similar to the HTML >

) and as inline (similar to the HTML ). These two "quotation" tags do have slightly different usages. My understanding is that is used for direct speech, ie, when a character in a book is saying something: John said "I never saw a butterfly that color." And the tag is used to mark material quoted from some external source: The weather reminds me of Dylan Thomas, who wrote: Especially when the October wind With frosty fingers punishes my hair The second one will often be block-level, but probably not always. Depending, as you mention, on what choises are made by who is doing the markup. Andrew From donovan at abs.net Mon Sep 19 12:11:18 2005 From: donovan at abs.net (D Garcia) Date: Mon Sep 19 12:08:30 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] TEI and CSS In-Reply-To: <432EF201.6000409@novomail.net> References: <432EF201.6000409@novomail.net> Message-ID: <200509191511.18518.donovan@abs.net> On Monday 19 September 2005 01:14 pm, Lee Passey wrote: > The resulting XML+CSS renders quite nicely in both Opera 7.4 and Firefox > 1.0.4. It does _not_ render quite so well in Internet Explorer 6.0.29. > Apparently IE does not support the CSS :before or :after > pseudo-selectors, causing the file to lose quotation marks Known, and they apparently do not plan to fix it. > The biggest obstacle remains how to make the images appear; I haven't > yet found anything in the CSS spec that will permit this. Use the url("your/path/to/file.img") syntax. From marcello at perathoner.de Mon Sep 19 12:35:41 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Mon Sep 19 12:35:56 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] TEI and CSS In-Reply-To: <432EF201.6000409@novomail.net> References: <432EF201.6000409@novomail.net> Message-ID: <432F130D.7010202@perathoner.de> Lee Passey wrote: > The principal work in creating the style sheet was in determining which > TEI tags suggested a block presentation, which tags suggested an inline > presentation, TEI does not specify this, and many tags are 'ambivalent' about whether the do represent a block or not. The examples in the TEI specs often use the same tag in a different manner. Most of the time you just have to decide from context, ie. a
inside a

is inline, a

insid a
is block. > TEI has two tags for quotations, one apparently > for long quotations () and one apparently for short quotations, > (). I opted to treat as block-level tags (similar to the HTML >
) and as inline (similar to the HTML ). This is quite a departure from TEI philosphy, which requires that all presentational attributes be segregated into the rend attribute. Also TEI defines a semantical difference between and . is for direct speech and is for citation of sources. > While Mr. Perathoner's version of _Alice_ has a fairly complete > section, it did not have a title page; It does not need a title page. A title page can easily be generated from the data in . > I set to "display:none", and added a to the > file. I also fixed a small number of abuses of the

tag, and changed > the tag for block-style quotations from to . The resulting > file can be found at http://www.passkeysoft.com/~lee/alice.xml. This very much confirms my assertion that you have to tweak the TEI source not indifferently if you want to make it work with CSS. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From jon at noring.name Mon Sep 19 13:07:20 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Mon Sep 19 13:09:09 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] TEI and CSS In-Reply-To: <432EF201.6000409@novomail.net> References: <432EF201.6000409@novomail.net> Message-ID: <93392339.20050919140720@noring.name> Lee wrote: > As threatened, I have started preparing a CSS file that will allow > TEI files, at least PG-TEI files, to be displayed natively in a web > browser.... Great work! > The principal work in creating the style sheet was in determining > which TEI tags suggested a block presentation, which tags suggested > an inline presentation, and which tags are primarily "metadataish" > and which should not be displayed at all (but which are useful, if > not essential, for creating catalogs). Most of the tags fell easily > into one of these three categories (ignoring, for the moment, > tables) ... Have you looked at how to handle the contents of the inline TEI tag? http://www.tei-c.org/P4X/CO.html#IDX-22 Here's some of what this section says: "A note is any additional comment found in a text, marked in some way as being out of the main textual stream. All notes should be marked using the same tag, , whether they appear as block notes in the main text area, at the foot of the page, at the end of the chapter or volume, in the margin, or in some other place. "Notes may be in a different hand or typeface, may be authorial or editorial, and may have been added later. Attributes may be used to specify these and other characteristics of notes, as detailed below. "Where possible, the body of a note should be inserted in the text at the point at which its identifier or mark first appears. This may not be possible for example with marginal notes, which may not be anchored to an exact location..." So, to directly render (with CSS) TEI documents containing inline content, it's best the note be removed from the mainflow and floated in its own box (such as to one side). A year ago I experimented with this, and got it to work for Opera and Firefox (but not IE6 which does not support the required CSS), and was even able to insert a note reference number. Something to explore. Unfortunately, I recently looked for the test files and somehow lost them. For the planned OpenReader, I want to look at how to implement this in a generic sense (such as adding a custom CSS 'display' property value) so OpenReader User Agents can treat the contents of inline annotative content in any markup vocabulary in one or more ways (e.g., render it in a popup, move it to a special notes page, etc.) Interestingly, XHTML 2.0 is planning an attribute which can be used to make an inline object an annotative "note", but whether user agents will implement it in a proper manner is still unclear. XHTML 2.0 is not being very "pushy" about this attribute -- the specese in the draft is pretty weak (need to write Steven Pemberton on this.) > The biggest obstacle remains how to make the images appear; I haven't > yet found anything in the CSS spec that will permit this. Not sure if you've looked at the Fahrner Image Replacement method. http://www.stopdesign.com/articles/replace_text/ Essentially, a tag can be given a background image using CSS: background-image:url(imagename.png); then you set the *contents* of that tag to be display:none (you have to have an inner tag to set to display:none -- you can't set to display:none the tag which will contain the background image!) I believe it is possible to make this method generic, so CSS will read the image name string from an attribute (this *can* be done if things are structured right), then substitute the string back into the CSS property to specify the background image. It may be necessary to specially tailor the TEI markup to make sure one has an outer and an inner tag -- the outer will be assigned the background image, and the inner will be set to display:none. The cool thing about the FIR method is that in the absence of CSS, it is possible to get something to render, such as the text describing the image, which is what you already do in your test TEI of Alice in Wonderland. Of course, the ultimate method for embedding images and objects, and to enable hypertext linking in any XML document is XLink, but XLink support in the major browsers is limited to Mozilla and Firefox and to hypertext linking only (not image/object inclusion.) Here's a little test I whipped up a while back on hypertext linking in browsers using XLink (which should also be of interest for direct rendering of TEI): http://www.windspun.com/demoxml/demolink.xml As noted above, the hypertext link will work only for Mozilla and Firefox browsers -- the link is not activated in IE6 and Opera 7/8. (Note that CSS does not contain a 'display' value to assign HTML "anchor" properties to any tag, and upon thinking about it, it is obvious that trying doing so will get messy very fast -- e.g., how does one recognize and assign the URI link in an arbitrary XML document?) This also explains why there's no generic support in CSS 'display' for image and object inclusion -- again it is messy to think how to do this using a set of CSS 'display' properties. XLink is definitely the long-term, vocabulary independent solution anyway. Jon From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Sep 19 14:28:46 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon Sep 19 14:29:02 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: off to the races Message-ID: <84.4e05cea9.3060878e@aol.com> lee said: > As threatened, I have started preparing > a CSS file that will allow TEI files, at least PG-TEI files, > to be displayed natively in a web browser.... interesting work, lee... > To test the CSS file, I grabbed Mr. Perathoner's > version of _Alice in Wonderland_ from > http://www.gutenberg.org/tei/marcello/0.3/examples/alice/ oh, so we _are_ doing alice after all. great! i'll dig out my z.m.l. copy, for a comparison... :+) i'll also continue the work i was sharing on jon noring's "my antonia" scan-set example, as the new openreader guy (nee thoutreader) has created an example using that content, if you'd like to go head-to-head on that too. and i helped a new friend put together his book for project gutenberg, so we'll have that to use as an example as well, if you wanna mark it up. plus, if you'd want to explore the gamut, lee, rather than just dabble with the simple stuff, i once created a test-suite containing all the features that are found across the p.g. library. you could be the first to mark that up in x.m.l. looks like we're finally getting real, folks... let us once again give thanks to all the people who have volunteered their time to scan books and proof the results. without their ingredients, none of us could be making any of our pudding. and then we'll be off to the races... > fixed a small number of abuses of the [p] tag, > and changed the tag for block-style quotations > from [q] to [quote]. my analysis shows you also did the footnotes differently, and moved some punctuation inside emphasis boundaries, noted here just because you wanna record all the changes that you made to the file so you will remember next time... -bowerbird p.s. lee, your x.m.l. file starts out fairly nicely in safari (v1.2.3), but changes its look at chapter 2, and then bombs out entirely when it gets to: > her voice sounded hoarse and strange, and > the words did not come the same as they used to do: p.p.s. looks fine in firefox 1.0.5. p.p.p.s. your x.m.l. has a capitalization error in the "chapter" markup for chapter 8, which makes it display incorrectly... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050919/ad5943a9/attachment.html From marcello at perathoner.de Mon Sep 19 15:35:33 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Mon Sep 19 15:35:52 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: off to the races In-Reply-To: <84.4e05cea9.3060878e@aol.com> References: <84.4e05cea9.3060878e@aol.com> Message-ID: <432F3D35.3090802@perathoner.de> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > oh, so we _are_ doing alice after all. great! > i'll dig out my z.m.l. copy, for a comparison... :+) "We" did it *before* all. I did it in 2003. > i once created a test-suite containing all the > features that are found across the p.g. library. You should have created a catalog of all features found in the originals, not of the few features that could be preserved in the plain text format. But then you would have duplicated the work of the TEI Consortium and found out how inadequate your ZML format is in real life. > looks like we're finally getting real, folks... Looks like you are trying to jump on the TEI bandwagon after years of bad-mouthing it ... -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Sep 19 16:29:39 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon Sep 19 16:29:58 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: off to the races Message-ID: <206.9b91280.3060a3e3@aol.com> marcello said: > "We" did it *before* all. I did it in 2003. i wasn't talking to you, marcello. your versions still have pimples... > You should have created a catalog of all features > found in the originals, not of the few features that > could be preserved in the plain text format. it's a test-suite of features common in _books_. i've been desktop publishing since ventura v1.0... > But then you would have duplicated the work > of the TEI Consortium and found out > how inadequate your ZML format is in real life. coming up with a vastly simpler formulation is _not_ "duplicating the work", not at all... and as my test-suite clearly demonstrates, z.m.l. is *more* than adequate "in real life". and that's the whole point... > Looks like you are trying to jump on > the TEI bandwagon after years of bad-mouthing it ... i'm not on the .tei "bandwagon" at all. but i _am_ glad that somebody is finally starting to make it real enough that we can finally subject it to some basic comparisons, so we can see that what it is going to give us in benefits isn't _nearly_ worth what it's gonna take from us in costs. i can make good on all your promises with _zero_ markup. so who are you ever gonna hoodwink into doing your markup? you best course of action right now is to close your mouth and sit back and watch while i run circles around your .tei... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050919/a858c10b/attachment.html From jon at noring.name Mon Sep 19 18:36:34 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Mon Sep 19 18:36:55 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Followup on rendering images in non-HTML XML documents; Handling TEI Message-ID: <412227797.20050919193634@noring.name> As I noted in a message this afternoon, it is possible to use CSS to embed and render images within non-HTML XML documents, such as TEI documents. The following example demonstrates one method, and works in Opera and Firefox: http://www.windspun.com/demoxml/embedimage.xml (The general method will work in IE6 provided IE6 recognizes the CSS selector -- but in this example IE6 doesn't understand selectors of form 'element[attr="attrvalue'"]' The technique is based on the Fahrner Image Replacement method (FIR): http://www.stopdesign.com/articles/replace_text/ The above link describes a couple other methods, but I haven't tested them out yet. Unfortunately, it appears there's no way in CSS 2.1, and probably not in CSS 3, to read the image file name in the document (as part of an attribute value), and use that to embed the image in CSS. (I.e., we'd like to be able to do url(attr()), but the CSS 2.1 spec does not support that, and CSS 3 probably won't either.) Thus, the CSS style sheet has to carry the specific image file names in it, which is not good (the image references could be put into a separate style sheet, and the demo CSS style sheet suggests how to do that.) I've appended the XML and CSS documents of this demo at the end of this message. There is another simpler technique using the CSS 'content' replacement property. But I could only get it to work in Opera, so I won't detail it here. On a distantly related topic, I previously discussed how one might use CSS to properly display the TEI inline tag. It needs to be extracted from and displayed outside of the main flow of the document. It appears CSS3 is planning some cool stuff that may already work in Opera and Firefox (but haven't checked it out to see if indeed these browsers support the new properties.) See, for example: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-content/#moving Enjoy! Jon (XML document: embedimage.xml) ********************************************************************** This is the descriptor to image #1. This is the descriptor to image #2. ********************************************************************** (CSS style sheet: embedimage.css) ********************************************************************** embedimagetest {display: block; padding-top: 100px;} picture {display: block; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: center; height: 350px;} picture[image="pic1"] {background-image: url("image1.jpg");} picture[image="pic2"] {background-image: url("image2.jpg");} text {display: none;} ********************************************************************** From lee at novomail.net Tue Sep 20 08:52:26 2005 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Tue Sep 20 08:52:31 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] TEI and CSS In-Reply-To: <432EF627.9070501@xs4all.nl> References: <432EF201.6000409@novomail.net> <432EF627.9070501@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4330303A.2030606@novomail.net> Walter van Holst wrote: > Lee Passey wrote: > >> The resulting XML+CSS renders quite nicely in both Opera 7.4 and >> Firefox 1.0.4. It does _not_ render quite so well in Internet >> Explorer 6.0.29. Apparently IE does not support the CSS :before or >> :after pseudo-selectors, causing the file to lose quotation marks, >> nor does it correctly interpret the *[attribute~="value"] syntax, >> making such markup as 'rend="italic"' or 'rend="center"' inoperative. > > > Safari gives the following errors: > > his page contains the following errors: > > error on line 195 at column 264: Entity 'nbsp' not defined > error on line 199 at column 293: Entity 'mdash' not defined [etc.] This problem is not related to CSS, but rather to parsing the DTD. Mr. Perathoner's original version used the —,   and   entities, but did not define them, relying instead on the entity definitions included from the chain of DTD includes. I discovered that neither Firefox nor Opera actually read or processed the doctype declaration, and therefore any entity definitions from included files, aren't. I attempted to solve this problem by defining these entities as part of the internal doctype declaration for alice.xml itself, and for those two browsers it appears to have worked. Apparently, not only does Safari fail to parse external DTDs, it also fails to parse _internal_ declarations. A more universal solution probably involves replacing _all_ named entities with numeric entities. I note that Bowerbird did not comment on this problem, and when it comes to fault-finding one can usually rely on Bowerbird. Perhaps this problem is version dependant; what version of Safari were you using? > Apart from that it looks rather nice. Thank you. > > Regards, > > Walter > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Sep 20 09:18:07 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Tue Sep 20 09:18:17 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] a couple of questions about alice Message-ID: <12f.65ead486.3061903f@aol.com> i have a couple of questions about alice in wonderland as it exists in the project gutenberg library... 1. am i missing something, or is there no file of any type in the library at the current time that is of high quality? 2. am i missing something, or is there no .html version that includes illustrations, whether by tenniel or anyone? 3. am i missing something, or is there no .txt version where the text-styling has been restored from all-caps? 4. does anyone know of a scan-set of the paper-book? i would love to see what the original pages looked like, and even include this as a sample text in banana-cream. 5. does anyone else think a flagship e-text like this one deserves better treatment than it is getting right now? i dug out the z.m.l. version i did a while back, and will soon upload variants of it for our little experiment here... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050920/ed6d79e7/attachment.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Sep 20 09:20:06 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Tue Sep 20 09:20:23 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] TEI and CSS Message-ID: <1e0.448d190a.306190b6@aol.com> lee said: > I note that Bowerbird > did not comment on this problem, > and when it comes to fault-finding > one can usually rely on Bowerbird. well, we usually call it "quality control" in my neck of the woods, i kid you not. :+) but yeah, i'm usually pretty good at it. (and i can take it, as well as dish it out.) i _did_ fall down on the job yesterday, however, by inexplicably failing to notice -- in firefox -- that text was not styled... emphasized text was marked in the x.m.l., but it wasn't displayed in any distinct way. so once you get that problem fixed, and you get the images displayed ok, your cutting-edge fourth-quarter-2005 x.m.l. solution that only runs in the new (bloated) browsers will begin to approach the capabilities .html gave us back in 1997. but hey, as long as _you_ are having fun, what does it really matter, eh? :+) -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050920/be4754f7/attachment.html From lee at novomail.net Tue Sep 20 11:17:39 2005 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Tue Sep 20 11:17:50 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] TEI and CSS In-Reply-To: <1e0.448d190a.306190b6@aol.com> References: <1e0.448d190a.306190b6@aol.com> Message-ID: <43305243.6030804@novomail.net> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > lee said: > > I note that Bowerbird > > did not comment on this problem, > > and when it comes to fault-finding > > one can usually rely on Bowerbird. > > well, we usually call it "quality control" > in my neck of the woods, i kid you not. :+) > > but yeah, i'm usually pretty good at it. > (and i can take it, as well as dish it out.) > > i _did_ fall down on the job yesterday, > however, by inexplicably failing to notice > -- in firefox -- that text was not styled... > > emphasized text was marked in the x.m.l., > but it wasn't displayed in any distinct way. Good catch, thank you. The problem was caused by an unmatched closing comment mark (*/). It's fixed now. From lee at novomail.net Tue Sep 20 12:31:45 2005 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Tue Sep 20 12:31:55 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] TEI and CSS In-Reply-To: <432F130D.7010202@perathoner.de> References: <432EF201.6000409@novomail.net> <432F130D.7010202@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <433063A1.7080304@novomail.net> Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Lee Passey wrote: > >> The principal work in creating the style sheet was in determining >> which TEI tags suggested a block presentation, which tags suggested >> an inline presentation, > > > TEI does not specify this, and many tags are 'ambivalent' about > whether they do represent a block or not. The examples in the TEI > specs often use the same tag in a different manner. Most of the time > you just have to decide from context, ie. a

inside a

is > inline, a

insid a
is block. Yes, one of the drawbacks of TEI is its ambiguity, and this problem comes into play as much in XSL Transformations as in Cascading Style Sheets. I think the holy grail of markup is to be able to perform all sorts of transformations, including transformation for presentation purposes, without human intervention. It appears that TEI has not yet solved this problem. Your comment about
s is helpful, however. In the next iteration of pgtei.css I'll change the definition so that figures inside of paragraphs are rendered as inline, and all other figures are rendered as block. >> TEI has two tags for quotations, one apparently for long quotations >> () and one apparently for short quotations, (). I opted to >> treat as block-level tags (similar to the HTML
) >> and as inline (similar to the HTML ). > > > This is quite a departure from TEI philosphy, which requires that all > presentational attributes be segregated into the rend attribute. A rule which is more often stated than observed. > Also TEI defines a semantical difference between and . > is for direct speech and is for citation of sources. A prime example. Looking at the TEI spec, I think you are probably right, although the academese of the spec leaves some doubt in my mind. (" contains a phrase or passage attributed by the narrator or author to some agency external to the text."?? What the heck does _that_ mean?) Previously, my curiousity having gotten the better of me, I went out to the TEI Listserve archives and looked at the threads on "floating divs." In those cases where the petitioner was looking for a way to indicate a distinct block of text inside a paragraph, the recommendation was almost always to use the tag, even in those cases where the 'quotedness' of the block was fairly tenuous. I would venture to say that after

, is probably the next most abused tag in TEI. On the other hand, if people would be willing to consistently use or for block quotes, that would be fine too. (I personally think 'type="block"' is preferable, as I see block quotes has having significance beyond merely the way they are rendered). If TEI is to become useful as a master format for PG, it will require a consistent usage to reduce or eliminate ambiguity, beyond that which is required by the TEI spec itself. >> While Mr. Perathoner's version of _Alice_ has a fairly complete >> section, it did not have a title page; > > > It does not need a title page. A title page can easily be generated > from the data in . I'm not yet proficient enough with CSS to be able to do this, but if you could show be how I would appreciate it. >> I set to "display:none", and added a to the >> file. I also fixed a small number of abuses of the

tag, and >> changed the tag for block-style quotations from to . The >> resulting file can be found at >> http://www.passkeysoft.com/~lee/alice.xml. > > > This very much confirms my assertion that you have to tweak the TEI > source not indifferently if you want to make it work with CSS. I disagree. I believe that if the appropriate discipline is practiced at the time the TEI source is created it can work for both CSS and XSLT, and I believe the new version of _Alice_ demonstrates that. That the file needed to be modified only demonstrates that at the time of its creation the required discipline was not practiced. From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Sep 20 13:07:30 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Tue Sep 20 13:07:46 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: the happy summer days -- alice is up Message-ID: <8b.30140a3f.3061c602@aol.com> my versions of "alice in wonderland" are up now. the z.m.l. text-file is at: > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/alice01/alice01/alice01.zml a representative .html file: > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/alice01/alice01/alice01.html i believe the .html version is as good as any you'll find on the net. (there are a _lot_ of .html versions of alice all around cyberspace. which is why i was amazed project gutenberg doesn't have one...) but please do feel free to give feedback about what might be wrong; i assure you i can take it. (even if i don't happen to agree with it...) because i used only a bare minimum of tags (appended to this post), i expect that this .html version would be fine for generating versions for the rocketbook, ereader, mobipocket, and the other p.d.a programs. so the question now is, if we can generate an .html version, as well as all the other versions stemming from the plain-text file, why do x.m.l.? david moynihan over at blackmask.com proved that _one_person_ could keep up with all the files being posted, converting each text-file (which he had to rework slightly) into a half-dozen different formats. in other words, the _promise_ that x.m.l. will give different versions -- which is, as yet, unproven, i must remind you -- has already been _realized_ -- for 15,000+ e-texts -- using the _plain-text_ version! so take a good hard look at the plain-text version i have just posted, and then take a good hard look at the various x.m.l. versions around, and decide for yourself which version _you_ would rather maintain... -bowerbird p.s. tags used in my .html file: [p][/p] [p id="..."][/p] [a href="#..."][/a] [br /] [hr /] [img src] [i][/i] [pre][/pre] [center][/center] [ul][/ul] [h1][/h1] [h2][/h2] [h3][/h3] [h4][/h4] [small][/small] [html][/html] [head][/head] [title][/title] [style][/style] [body][/body] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050920/15babef0/attachment.html From marcello at perathoner.de Tue Sep 20 13:23:54 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue Sep 20 13:24:14 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: the happy summer days -- alice is up In-Reply-To: <8b.30140a3f.3061c602@aol.com> References: <8b.30140a3f.3061c602@aol.com> Message-ID: <43306FDA.8040201@perathoner.de> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > my versions of "alice in wonderland" are up now. > > a representative .html file: > >> http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/alice01/alice01/alice01.html Result: Failed validation, 159 errors http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fsnowy.arsc.alaska.edu%2Fbowerbird%2Falice01%2Falice01%2Falice01.html&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&verbose=1 -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Sep 20 14:02:57 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Tue Sep 20 14:03:11 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: the happy summer days -- alice is up Message-ID: <1f3.127477d0.3061d301@aol.com> marcello said: > Failed validation, 159 errors i don't give a whit about validation. as long as it works, and it works fine, in all browsers, that's what i care about... when i submit a file for posting, you can be sure it will pass the validator. but otherwise, for the time being, my conversion routines will _not_ give .html that passes the validator. and that's a conscious decision. that way, i can make sure that none of my various enemies here can use my work to further their aims. now, if someone has a report about the file not working, tell me _that_... any questions about how it works? or why i did things the way i did? feel free to ask me anything like that. but complaints about "passing a validator"? well, you might as well be passing gas... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050920/d4d2464a/attachment.html From marcello at perathoner.de Tue Sep 20 14:06:30 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue Sep 20 14:06:42 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: the happy summer days -- alice is up In-Reply-To: <8b.30140a3f.3061c602@aol.com> References: <8b.30140a3f.3061c602@aol.com> Message-ID: <433079D6.6020302@perathoner.de> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > i believe the .html version is as good as any you'll find on the net. Result: Failed validation, 159 errors > but please do feel free to give feedback about what might be wrong; > i assure you i can take it. (even if i don't happen to agree with it...) You may tell a piece of your mind to the w3c validator team starting here: http://validator.w3.org/feedback.html > because i used only a bare minimum of tags (appended to this post), > i expect that this .html version would be fine for generating versions > for the rocketbook, ereader, mobipocket, and the other p.d.a programs. First of all, it should validate. Second, it should not use deprecated tags. Third, it should use css. > so the question now is, if we can generate an .html version, as well as > all the other versions stemming from the plain-text file, why do x.m.l.? Lets mercifully overlook the fact that you have stolen my XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX you did not take the `raw' Alice from gutenberg.org as basis for your zml file, but you took the TXT file which was generated from a PGTEI master by the PGTEI converter ... (If you want to prove that you can make better cars than your competitor, you should not buy your competitor's car, paint over your competitor's logo, and sell it as your own make. People will notice!) Lets also overlook the fact that your `generated' html file contains 159 errors, so we really cannot speak of an `html' file at all ... After all this overlooking, you still have just posted two files. You have not demonstrated that the one file was algorithmically derived from the other. To do this you would have to post the source code (or at least a working executable) of your zml converter for us to see. Until you do that, *your* claim is unproven. > in other words, the _promise_ that x.m.l. will give different versions > -- which is, as yet, unproven, i must remind you -- The PGTEI claim is proven enough. Texts have been posted. The source code is available. An online converter service is running for everybody to look-see. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Sep 20 14:23:24 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Tue Sep 20 14:23:41 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: the happy summer days -- alice is up Message-ID: <215.996b283.3061d7cc@aol.com> marcello said: > Lets mercifully overlook the fact that you have > stolen my XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX "stolen"? this material is in the public domain. > you did not take the `raw' Alice from gutenberg.org > as basis for your zml file of course not. that file doesn't have styled text. you went and created a version that identified the text in italics, but didn't share it with people. now it will be shared. but surely you don't think you're the only person in the whole world who has styled that text, do you? > but you took the TXT file which was > generated from a PGTEI master by the PGTEI converter ... you don't want to admit the point, so there's little use in restating it, but the point is that, given the dirt-simple rules of z.m.l., plain-text is fully capable of expressing the structure that is necessary to transform this text into a very-high-powered e-book. since this is a relatively straightforward book, with few complications, that's to be expected. but as time goes on, i will also share examples of books that are much more complicated too. > you still have just posted two files. > You have not demonstrated that the one file was > algorithmically derived from the other. To do this > you would have to post the source code (or at least > a working executable) of your zml converter for us to see. i won't be posting any source-code, so don't hold your breath. but if anyone has any difficulty seeing how the plain-text file can be analyzed to "algorithmically derive" its .html brother, do please feel free to ask me, and i will 'splain it to you promptly. *** now, marcello, i really gave you some calm and friendly advice when i told you that your best course of action is to be quiet... i am going to methodically show heavy markup is unnecessary to maintain the project gutenberg library of e-texts, so you can yelp like a little girl when i do it, to try your best to interrupt me, or you can sit back and learn something instead. take your pick... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20050920/5e87af31/attachment.html From marcello at perathoner.de Tue Sep 20 14:55:40 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue Sep 20 14:55:53 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: the happy summer days -- alice is up In-Reply-To: <215.996b283.3061d7cc@aol.com> References: <215.996b283.3061d7cc@aol.com> Message-ID: <4330855C.7080904@perathoner.de> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: >> you did not take the `raw' Alice from gutenberg.org >> as basis for your zml file > > of course not. that file doesn't have styled text. That pretty much shoots your claim that your process takes the plain text files from PG and converts them without no work at all. And -- moreover -- you lied. The Alice at PG *has* styled text. Isn't your tool capable of interpreting CAPITALIZED TEXT as hilighting? > you went and created a version that identified > the text in italics, but didn't share it with people. > now it will be shared. You lied again: this has been shared online since April 2002: http://www.gnutenberg.de There's also the 'Looking glass' if you want to steal some more. > but surely you don't think you're the only person > in the whole world who has styled that text, do you? But I'm the only person who has placed the illustrations exactly that way. > i won't be posting any source-code, so don't hold your breath. If you don't want to share in the first place, then why are you boring us with your stupid format at all? Why should we care? Are you just hyping yourself for the sake of yourself? Do you really need that? -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From marcello at perathoner.de Tue Sep 20 15:13:32 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue Sep 20 15:13:44 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] TEI and CSS In-Reply-To: <433063A1.7080304@novomail.net> References: <432EF201.6000409@novomail.net> <432F130D.7010202@perathoner.de> <433063A1.7080304@novomail.net> Message-ID: <4330898C.1020709@perathoner.de> Lee Passey wrote: > Yes, one of the drawbacks of TEI is its ambiguity, and this problem > comes into play as much in XSL Transformations as in Cascading Style > Sheets. I think the holy grail of markup is to be able to perform all > sorts of transformations, including transformation for presentation > purposes, without human intervention. It appears that TEI has not yet > solved this problem. It wasn't designed for presentation at all. It was designed to make old documents accessible electronically to the scholar. They don't care much about fonts and point sizes, but very much about semantics. >> This is quite a departure from TEI philosphy, which requires that all >> presentational attributes be segregated into the rend attribute. > > A rule which is more often stated than observed. I have heard this assertion more often than I have seen it proved. > On the other hand, if people would be willing to consistently use type="block"> or for block quotes, that would be fine > too. (I personally think 'type="block"' is preferable, as I see block > quotes has having significance beyond merely the way they are rendered). > If TEI is to become useful as a master format for PG, it will require a > consistent usage to reduce or eliminate ambiguity, beyond that which is > required by the TEI spec itself. Running in a quote or displaying it is a purly presentational matter. As for the presentational stuff in the rend attribute, it now follows the CSS2 specs. So that ambiguity source has been eliminated. >> It does not need a title page. A title page can easily be generated >> from the data in . > > I'm not yet proficient enough with CSS to be able to do this, but if you > could show be how I would appreciate it. I know how to do it in XSL. I don't know how to do it in CSS. >> This very much confirms my assertion that you have to tweak the TEI >> source not indifferently if you want to make it work with CSS. > > I disagree. I believe that if the appropriate discipline is practiced at > the time the TEI source is created it can work for both CSS and XSLT, > and I believe the new version of _Alice_ demonstrates that. That the > file needed to be modified only demonstrates that at the time of its > creation the required discipline was not practiced. `Discipline' in this case is to nudge the encoder into using only those TEI constructs that will work with CSS and forbidding him to use all those TEI constructs that don't work with CCS. None of the things you `fixed' were violating the TEI spec. You just had to `fix' them because CSS is too weak to support them. eg. You had to move the entity decarations into an internal subset because browsers don't support external subsets yet. But nothing in the TEI spec requires internal subsets. Actually internal subsets just take up more space in the files and are much harder to maintain. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From jon at noring.name Tue Sep 20 16:08:28 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Tue Sep 20 16:08:45 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] re: the happy summer days -- alice is up In-Reply-To: <433079D6.6020302@perathoner.de> References: <8b.30140a3f.3061c602@aol.com> <433079D6.6020302@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <641028675.20050920170828@noring.name> Marcello wrote: > Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: >> i believe the .html version is as good as any you'll find on the net. It depends upon what you define by "good". > Result: Failed validation, 159 errors Yes, I got the same result at W3C's validator. Looking at the source of bowerbird's HTML file, it is a good start, but still has problems, which I assume his application can be tweaked to fix. Here is the top portion of his Alice document (I've made the line breaks in the document conform with Windows/Linux -- I assume his application outputs in a Mac form -- his *.txt is that way and opens up in my generic 'vi' editor in a strange form, as it will for Michael Hart and his text editor -- it is essentially how line breaks are represented in text documents.) I've added line numbers to each line (in '[...]') for reference. I've even fixed a couple things which I won't bother to detail to make the following clearer to read: ************************************************************************ [001] Alice's Adventures in Wonderland [002] [003] [004] [014]

    [015]

    [016] < [018] c [019] > [020]

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    Alice's Adventures
    in Wonderland     [023]

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    by Lewis Carroll

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    Illustrated by John Tenniel

    [029] i

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    the z.m.l. edition -- 2005

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    [033]

    [034]

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    [037]

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    [039] < [040] c ****************************************************************************** My comments on this snippet: Line 004: