From Bowerbird at aol.com Sat Oct 1 14:14:01 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sat Oct 1 14:14:16 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] the nature of the visit -- dropping the facades Message-ID: it's time to call it like it is... so i'll give you something to think about over the weekend. i'm here on this listserve because i've got information that could be very useful to you. if you choose to hear it. the nature of the visit, then, is that i'm doing you a favor by being here... i'll repeat, so it sinks in: i'm doing you a favor. you are the one who will benefit. not me. i don't need to tell you this information in able to be able to use it wisely myself... i am here as a _gift_ to you, plain and simple. if you don't want the gift, that's just fine by me. i can go off and use the information wisely myself. so it's time for you to make a conscious choice, either to listen to the information, or not to listen. this little game of "we hate you, please go away" has been fun to play, but now we're done with it. if you don't acknowledge what i am giving as a gift, i simply won't give it to you. we're dropping facades... if you really want me to go without delivering the message, i'll strongly consider it. my obligation is met if i _attempt_ to make delivery; whether you _take_ delivery is irrelevant. so you should think about it over the weekend, and then talk amongst yourselves next week, and make a decision. i might stay here and post the information anyway, even if you decide that you don't want to hear it -- i'm not making my decision totally contingent on you. but if you don't realize the favor i'm doing for you, if you don't appreciate the gift that i am offering you, then i must come to the conclusion you don't deserve it -- as if there was every any reason you _did_ deserve it -- and will strongly consider abandoning you in your tar-pit... it would be a lot smarter of you to decide to hear the message, or at least listen to it, even if you're not capable of "hearing" it. then again, most of you don't impress me as being very smart. so it will be interesting to see if you can pass this i.q. test. do you want the gift i am delivering? or not. come to a collective decision. i want to hear it... don't bother with any smart-ass replies to this post... all i want to get from you is a collective "yes" or "no"... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051001/a129671c/attachment.html From joseph.gruber at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 14:28:44 2005 From: joseph.gruber at gmail.com (Joseph R. Gruber) Date: Sat Oct 1 14:34:53 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] the nature of the visit -- dropping the facades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <433eff76.193d5099.69d7.18cf@mx.gmail.com> > If you really want me to go without delivering the message, > i'll strongly consider it. my obligation is met if i _attempt_ > to make delivery; whether you _take_ delivery is irrelevant. This isn't FedEx here.now be gone. I'm tired of getting all of these emails just because you like to stir things up. > don't bother with any smart-ass replies to this post... > all i want to get from you is a collective "yes" or "no"... Too late. Why don't you go start your own PG/DP bowerturd? Joseph -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051001/35d16746/attachment.html From cannona at fireantproductions.com Sat Oct 1 14:59:00 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Sat Oct 1 14:59:39 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] the nature of the visit -- dropping the facades In-Reply-To: <433eff76.193d5099.69d7.18cf@mx.gmail.com> References: <433eff76.193d5099.69d7.18cf@mx.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051001164522.04491ea8@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 04:28 PM 10/1/2005, you wrote: > >This isn?t FedEx here now be gone. I?m tired of getting all of these >emails just because you like to stir things up. > > >Too late > >Why don?t you go start your own PG/DP bowerturd? > >Joseph While I totally understand and agree with the above sentiments, I would encourage everyone to refrain from enabling the Bird by responding. I know it can be tempting to do so, but if you really want Bowerbird to leave, please vote with your delete button, rather than with your reply button. I hardly have room to speak on this subject, as I have until very recently been part of the problem. Still, this is just my suggestion. Each member of this list is of course free to do as they choose. Sincerely Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDPwbCI7J99hVZuJcRAtLOAJ4ux6g2Ul2y8pCa7653rvKNb6pkaQCeJXzE Dv0WKZlgcsAllt90s5cyohM= =08q/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From marcello at perathoner.de Sat Oct 1 15:21:35 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Sat Oct 1 15:21:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Redirect BB to gutvol-p ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <433F0BEF.9040703@perathoner.de> How about if we ban him on gutvol-d only, so this list can go back to work ? He still can post on gutvol-p, so there would be no censorship, only a forced channel switch. gutvol-p has no traffic currently, so using it for BBs rodomontades wouldn't be too much of a waste, while those who think he has a point (or think he's funny) can go listen to him there. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From marcello at perathoner.de Sat Oct 1 15:27:22 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Sat Oct 1 15:27:34 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] the nature of the visit -- dropping the facades In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051001164522.04491ea8@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <433eff76.193d5099.69d7.18cf@mx.gmail.com> <6.2.1.2.0.20051001164522.04491ea8@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <433F0D4A.7090501@perathoner.de> Aaron Cannon wrote: > While I totally understand and agree with the above sentiments, I would > encourage everyone to refrain from enabling the Bird by responding. I know > it can be tempting to do so, but if you really want Bowerbird to leave, > please vote with your delete button, rather than with your reply button. The problem with BB is that he won't go away if you fight him and he won't go away if you ignore him. Last time he "went" he was put on moderation. That helped. So I guess that's what we'll have to do now. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Sat Oct 1 15:49:52 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sat Oct 1 15:50:08 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] the nature of the visit -- dropping the facades Message-ID: <15a.5a2467eb.30706c90@aol.com> you guys are incapable of _thinking_ for a whole weekend, aren't you? you just have to pop off of the top of your head. *** marcello said: > Last time he "went" he was put on moderation. i was put on "moderation", so i left, yes. i came back because some people tried to spin a lie that i had been "banned". if i do leave here now, and people later try to spin a lie that i was "driven away", i'll come back again. you guys aren't talented enough to influence what i do. > That helped. So I guess that's what we'll have to do now. there's no need for that. just come to a consensus that you want me to go, and let me know that decision. but it has to be a _collective_ decision. (as if some of you have any idea what that is.) we've already heard from the loudmouths... if marcello doesn't keep his mouth shut, i will stay here just to spite him alone... *** now, stop discussing this until you've thought about it for two whole days, or i'll take the offer off the table... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051001/6f3809e4/attachment.html From cannona at fireantproductions.com Sat Oct 1 16:08:17 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Sat Oct 1 16:14:17 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] the nature of the visit -- dropping the facades In-Reply-To: <433F0D4A.7090501@perathoner.de> References: <433eff76.193d5099.69d7.18cf@mx.gmail.com> <6.2.1.2.0.20051001164522.04491ea8@mail.fireantproductions.com> <433F0D4A.7090501@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051001180115.01e54c20@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 05:27 PM 10/1/2005, you wrote: >The problem with BB is that he won't go away if you fight him and he won't >go away if you ignore him. I'm not convinced that he was ever truly ignored. He always got a response eventually. Even if it doesn't make him go away, it might make it easier to justify forcing him away if he is just shouting into the ether and receiving no acknowledgment. >Last time he "went" he was put on moderation. That helped. So I guess >that's what we'll have to do now. I agree, but I don't think it's going to happen based on what Greg has said. Still, one can hope. Sincerely Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDPxg9I7J99hVZuJcRAsfXAJ9jQyvjsj0hIWPrA+NT4jORchnp7ACgzZjf PrCCUgWTBl1//grX8fwG0Io= =0Lr1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From fvandrog at scripps.edu Sat Oct 1 17:49:48 2005 From: fvandrog at scripps.edu (Frank van Drogen) Date: Sat Oct 1 17:38:53 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] the nature of the visit -- dropping the facades Message-ID: <433F16BF@neo> >===== Original Message From Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion ===== >it's time to call it like it is... > >so i'll give you something to think about over the weekend. > >the nature of the visit, then, is that >i'm doing you a favor by being here... > >i'll repeat, so it sinks in: i'm doing you a favor. Great -- I'll make an efford to appreciate this favor, if you could make an efford to let us experience that favor in a concise manner. Fifty words at a time should be largely sufficient, for somebody as intelligent as you. Frank From lee at novomail.net Mon Oct 3 10:42:05 2005 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Mon Oct 3 10:42:18 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] the nature of the visit -- dropping the facades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43416D6D.6050406@novomail.net> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > it's time to call it like it is... [snip] > you are the one who will benefit. not me. > i don't need to tell you this information > in able to be able to use it wisely myself... [snip > i might stay here and post the information anyway, > even if you decide that you don't want to hear it -- > i'm not making my decision totally contingent on you. As you correctly point out, your continuing participation in discussions here is your decision, not ours. Speaking for myself alone, I have not found anything in any of your posts which is particularly novel or insightful. For that reason, I am skeptical that anything you say in the future might be so. So please, don't feel you must continue to post for _my_ benefit. Personally, were I in your place I would be much more self-centered. I would be asking myself, "am _I_ learning enough to make my participation worthwhile?" If you're not benefiting personally from the list, I would think you shouldn't bother to stick around. From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Oct 3 11:52:46 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon Oct 3 11:53:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] the nature of the visit -- dropping the facades Message-ID: <156.5a9f1b60.3072d7fe@aol.com> lee said: > Speaking for myself alone, I have not found > anything in any of your posts which is > particularly novel or insightful. talk to your fellow list-members, lee, not to me. when you have all come to a collective decision, then you can relay it to me, and i'll consider it... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051003/2466f0d6/attachment.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Oct 3 13:10:49 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon Oct 3 13:11:00 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] be careful what you ask for Message-ID: joe said: > Why don?t you go start your own PG/DP bowerturd? be careful what you ask for... > http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/bparchive?year=2005& post=2005-10-03,3 -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051003/1308c90b/attachment.html From BunnyCAW at aol.com Mon Oct 3 17:19:41 2005 From: BunnyCAW at aol.com (BunnyCAW@aol.com) Date: Mon Oct 3 17:20:02 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Sick of this... Message-ID: <42.72670b98.3073249d@aol.com> You know, about 2 weeks ago, I tried to find out how to join your project and start entering a number of older books that I have in my possession. I tried finding instructions on how to do this on the web page, but found only muddy descriptions of how to go about it. There were no firm guidelines such as USE THIS FORMAT or HERE IS THE PROGRAM THAT WE TYPCIALLY USE. I tried to send scans to obtain copyright clearance only to have the message bounce. I tried resending them with the _at_ changed to @ and never got a reply from whomever was handling the clearances. So, since joining as a PROOFREADER was all that I could find info on, I joined this list. I submitted a couple of elementary questions such as what format to type these books into, etc. My message has NEVER appeared on this digest. All that HAS appeared is a bunch of people bickering and complaining about some arrogant twit. Can we all just GET OFF OF IT and do something constructive? How about someone clueing me in as to a very basic HOW do I reach this person who clears the books for copyright? And should the output of my text files be a TXT file? Or something else? (Then of course there are questions such as how you typically handle/format tables of contents and page breaks, how illustrations are typically treated, etc.) I know that one person is not THAT important, so I won't threaten to leave if I'm not answered, but you'd surely think that you all would welcome something else to do than to gripe about this Bowerbird person... As for me... I'm getting tired of waiting and being ignored. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051003/481c19d5/attachment.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Oct 3 17:31:14 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon Oct 3 17:31:30 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Sick of this... Message-ID: <13c.1d0ec150.30732752@aol.com> catherine, several people already responded to you -- on the day your message appeared (the 29th) -- including me. you were instructed about the f.a.q., and distributed proofreaders, and were encouraged to ask any questions that you might have... did you not receive those messages? -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051003/dc2fb110/attachment.html From cannona at fireantproductions.com Mon Oct 3 17:43:27 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Mon Oct 3 17:43:57 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Sick of this... In-Reply-To: <42.72670b98.3073249d@aol.com> References: <42.72670b98.3073249d@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051003192435.0358fc90@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 07:19 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote: >You know, about 2 weeks ago, I tried to find out how to join your project >and start entering a number of older books that I have in my possession. There is no PG membership. We just have a bunch of volunteers who contribute what they want. >I tried finding instructions on how to do this on the web page, but found >only muddy descriptions of how to go about it. There were no firm >guidelines such as USE THIS FORMAT or HERE IS THE PROGRAM THAT WE >TYPCIALLY USE. It depends on how you would like to do it. You can either scan all of the books (after you get copyright clearance), and either proof them your self, or you can send the scans to Distributed Proofreaders. You might also type them if you're especially patient. The reason that there is no definitive instructions on what programs to use or exactly how to do things is because everyone does it differently. As long as the end result complies to the general PG formatting and quality standards, it doesn't matter as much how you get there. > I tried to send scans to obtain copyright clearance only to have the > message bounce. I tried resending them with the _at_ changed to @ and > never got a reply from whomever was handling the clearances. You can submit the scans here: http://copy.pglaf.org/ >So, since joining as a PROOFREADER was all that I could find info on, I >joined this list. I submitted a couple of elementary questions such as >what format to type these books into, etc. My message has NEVER appeared >on this digest. You might check the archives. I saw your original message as well as a few replies. That particular digest may not have made it to your inbox for some reason. >All that HAS appeared is a bunch of people bickering and complaining about >some arrogant twit. Can we all just GET OFF OF IT and do something >constructive? How about someone clueing me in as to a very basic HOW do I >reach this person who clears the books for copyright? And should the >output of my text files be a TXT file? Or something else? Yes. We want TXT. You can check the FAQ for further details. http://www.gutenberg.org/faq If anything in the FAQ raises more questions, please don't hesitate to ask on the list. You will almost always get a response. >(Then of course there are questions such as how you typically >handle/format tables of contents and page breaks, how illustrations are >typically treated, etc.) I know that one person is not THAT important, so >I won't threaten to leave if I'm not answered, but you'd surely think that >you all would welcome something else to do than to gripe about this >Bowerbird person... As for me... I'm getting tired of waiting and being >ignored. There are some formatting guides on the DP site. http://www.pgdp.net/ Sorry that you haven't gotten your questions answered. I appreciate your willingness to help, and I know that I am not alone. Good luck, and please don't hesitate to ask more questions. Sincerely Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDQdBFI7J99hVZuJcRAoWIAJ44Wuo9ZBcLas/jSEvoKbm4XewlqACgoV/L QrsF6TyoYGNf+vbYMzCpzqs= =ZQXe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From JBuck814366460 at aol.com Mon Oct 3 18:11:14 2005 From: JBuck814366460 at aol.com (Jared Buck) Date: Mon Oct 3 18:11:33 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Sick of this... In-Reply-To: <42.72670b98.3073249d@aol.com> References: <42.72670b98.3073249d@aol.com> Message-ID: <4341D6B2.40800@aol.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051003/a46832dd/attachment.html From bruce at zuhause.org Mon Oct 3 22:59:10 2005 From: bruce at zuhause.org (Bruce Albrecht) Date: Mon Oct 3 22:59:28 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Sick of this... In-Reply-To: <42.72670b98.3073249d@aol.com> References: <42.72670b98.3073249d@aol.com> Message-ID: <17218.6702.659675.36428@celery.zuhause.org> Alas, there are few firm guidelines for submission to PG, but most of them can be found in the FAQ (http://www.gutenberg.org/faq/). To submit scans for clearance, I suggest you go to http://copy.pglaf.org. The person who does most of the clearances (i.e., pre-1923 copyrights) was out of town recently, I believe returning on 10/3, so it's possible that your lack of replies about the clearance is merely a timing issue. PG is a volunteer organization, and most of the work is done by a small group of people who are not necessarily subscribed to this mailing list, and if they're not available, it can be a week or two before you get a response. You might also want to consider visiting and/or joining Distributed Proofreaders (http://www.pgdp.net) to see how they do it, as they provide a majority of the content for Project Gutenberg these days. They also have a number of tools available that can be used in the creation of files suitable for upload to PG, although some are geared towards the DP way of splitting the pages into separate files for processing, and then joining them all back together before submission to PG. DP also has forums for people who are working on scanning (content providing), and post-processing (prepping for submission to PG), so even if you don't want to get involved with DP, you may find answers to your questions there. Good luck. I hope this mailing list has not turned you away from volunteering content for Project Gutenberg. Unfortunately, the mailing list goes through periods of severe trolling because some people can't resist responding to the trolls (and I think we all know which 8-10 regulars are the ones most guilty), and you joined it a particularly bad time. Bruce From sly at victoria.tc.ca Tue Oct 4 00:01:59 2005 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Tue Oct 4 00:02:20 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Sick of this... In-Reply-To: <42.72670b98.3073249d@aol.com> References: <42.72670b98.3073249d@aol.com> Message-ID: I'll respond to your concerns here, although I may just be repeating what others have said. First, the web site. In responce to people who wanted to find out about various details about Project Gutenberg, Jim Tinsely put together a sizable faq which you can find here: http://www.gutenberg.org/faq/ It goes into much detail about many aspects of volunteering for PG, among other things. It could be a little overwhelming because of the amount of information it contains, but such is the trade-off. If you are looking at preparing a text yourself, any word processor or text editor that can output standard plain text ought to be suitable. I could tell you what I use, and others on this list could do the same, but they would likely all be different. Next you mentioned copyright clearances. Are you using the interface found at: http://copy.pglaf.org/ Or are you emailing the images directly to someone? I think every person who is interested in PG is important. As you may have seen on this list, even those who may not have the good-will of many others still have their say. I, as well as others, responded to your previous message on this mailing list. If there were other messages you sent, are you able to check them to make sure the address was correct? Doing a whole book yourself as a first project is very much an uphill struggle. In the "old days" it was not uncommon for well-intentioned people to come to PG and then give up part-way through their first attempt. These days, it is usual to direct people to Distributed Proofing first, as that is a good place a to learn the basics of what we do, and can give you a start that can make your first book much easier. It also might help to realize that Project Gutenberg is a rather decentralized volunteer organization. Those of us involved all have "real-life" jobs and concerns to worry about, and still spend many hours doing our best to make PG work, though it sometimes is frustrating to do so. If you do feel that you are being ignored, please believe that it is not intentional. So, to sum it all up: Recomendation: Go spend a week or so proofing pages at distributed proofers. Alternate: If that does not appeal or is not workable for you, and you still want to do a book on your own, you are welcome to do so. Get ready to spend some time reading through the FAQ mentioned above, and to ask some questions. And do take it one step at a time (ie, asking about copyright clearances, and how the mailing list works, and file formats all at once might not be a good choice.) Thanks, Andrew On Mon, 3 Oct 2005 BunnyCAW@aol.com wrote: > You know, about 2 weeks ago, I tried to find out how to join your project > and start entering a number of older books that I have in my possession. I > tried finding instructions on how to do this on the web page, but found only > muddy descriptions of how to go about it. There were no firm guidelines such as > USE THIS FORMAT or HERE IS THE PROGRAM THAT WE TYPCIALLY USE. I tried to > send scans to obtain copyright clearance only to have the message bounce. I > tried resending them with the _at_ changed to @ and never got a reply from > whomever was handling the clearances. So, since joining as a PROOFREADER was all > that I could find info on, I joined this list. I submitted a couple of > elementary questions such as what format to type these books into, etc. My > message has NEVER appeared on this digest. All that HAS appeared is a bunch of > people bickering and complaining about some arrogant twit. Can we all just > GET OFF OF IT and do something constructive? How about someone clueing me in > as to a very basic HOW do I reach this person who clears the books for > copyright? And should the output of my text files be a TXT file? Or something > else? (Then of course there are questions such as how you typically > handle/format tables of contents and page breaks, how illustrations are typically > treated, etc.) I know that one person is not THAT important, so I won't threaten to > leave if I'm not answered, but you'd surely think that you all would welcome > something else to do than to gripe about this Bowerbird person... As for > me... I'm getting tired of waiting and being ignored. > From BunnyCAW at aol.com Tue Oct 4 07:45:07 2005 From: BunnyCAW at aol.com (BunnyCAW@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 4 07:45:16 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Thanks and apologies Message-ID: Folks, Thanks so much for a response to my queries. For some unknown reason the original message and any possible replies never made it to my email. I apologize for the tone of my previous message, however, I have been getting rather frustrated. This surely explains why it seems I never received any assistance since, on my end, it seemed I asked and never got any response. I hate to "stamp my feet", but was sitting here looking at a stack of books on my desk, trying to decide which one I want to work on, and wondering why (if everyone is so hot to have ebooks) no one will give any info on getting started on one. I apologize for the following reply not being directed at anyone in particular, but so many of the comments come from everyone, I'm just going to dive in. Your replies are much appreciated, especially if you have bothered to type them twice! Now for just a few replies of my own... >There is no PG membership. We just have a bunch of volunteers who >contribute what they want. Yes, I know it is not a "membership" per se. I merely mean "joining" you as in getting together and DOING this, not as in to become a member of an organization. >http://www.gutenberg.org/faq/ >It goes into much detail about many aspects of volunteering >for PG, among other things. It could be a little overwhelming >because of the amount of information it contains, but >such is the trade-off. Okay, I suppose my mistake was in not exhaustively reading the entire FAQ line for line. I read the answers to what questions I thought would direct me to info on getting approval for copyright, and about format. (Although I have to admit it had me a little confused.) I did spend some time on it, though, so please don't chastise me for being too impulsive or scatterbrained to know to go to the FAQ first. I'm not quite as dumb as I look! (Well, maybe almost...) >If you are looking at preparing a text yourself, any word processor >or text editor that can output standard plain text ought to be >suitable. I could tell you what I use, and others on this list >could do the same, but they would likely all be different. I guess my questions should have been: What format is the output BEST delivered in? and What programs do all of YOU use? (To compare them or see if I already have the software on my system.) Although I am a big fan of our language, I sometimes feel like I am speaking a foreign one! >Are you using the interface found at: >http://copy.pglaf.org/ >Or are you emailing the images directly to someone? Two parts of this little goof seem to have come to light... The first is that the link on the OLD Project Gutenberg page did NOT take me to a page where I could submit via a form. It pulled up an email to someone who (when I emailed the scans) had an auto-reply which seemed to say that they were not the person to send it to, etc. The second is that this may have been the correct person, but if they were on vacation and had that auto-reply, then I misread it. (I'm perfectly willing to take the hit on that... It happens.) >Doing a whole book yourself as a first project is very >much an uphill struggle. In the "old days" it was not >uncommon for well-intentioned people to come to PG >and then give up part-way through their first attempt. >These days, it is usual to direct people to Distributed >Proofing first, as that is a good place a to learn >the basics of what we do, and can give you a start that >can make your first book much easier. Okay, well, I intend to do just that, dive in with a book. Maybe it is overwhelming to some, but I have no trouble with typing. Besides which, I don't know how to make my scanner's text-recognition software run, so... I assume that (save typos) there will be less proofing required of a work which is typed as opposed to one which is scanned, anyway. >It also might help to realize that Project Gutenberg is >a rather decentralized volunteer organization. Those of us >involved all have "real-life" jobs and concerns to worry >about, and still spend many hours doing our best to >make PG work, though it sometimes is frustrating to >do so. If you do feel that you are being ignored, please >believe that it is not intentional. Yes, I know full well that people have "real lives". I have one myself and really don't need more things to take up my time. I have 2 children who are teens in need of special education in a school system that does not take their needs seriously and in which high school students don't receive special education services. The elder one has a brain injury which makes her forgetful and frequently angry, so it is not easy going. I also work for myself selling collectibles over the internet, have an 80 year old mother living with us who requires my care, and have 2 houses to maintain (as my husband does not know the right end of a hammer). So, do I NEED to do this, well, not as a way to fill up "idle time", but I do need things (like typing) that I can do without hassle as "therapy"! >So, to sum it all up: >Recomendation: >Go spend a week or so proofing pages at distributed proofers. I will look over what is there, but I doubt that I'll spend that much time at it. Thanks for the suggestion, though. >And do take it one step at >a time (ie, asking about copyright clearances, and how the >mailing list works, and file formats all at once might not >be a good choice.) I'd rather not constantly pester the list with elementary questions such as these. The logical progression is to get the clearance, find the correct format before I start typing, and begin working. I don't see any merit in "baby stepping" through about 25 digests filling up everyone's mailbox. I'm certain that you all have more entertaining things to do than hold my hand for a few weeks while I get started. Besides which I am ALSO certain that, once I get started, other questions will demand answers here, anyway. (So, trust me, I'll be baaack!) As for asking how the mailing list works, I asked no such questions. I merely stated that for some reason (which has since come to light, the probability that AOL or the aether ATE the message in which my original query appeared) my message (and your replies) never came through on my end. (Yes, I know, that was HORRID English! Excuse me!) Anyway, this has turned into a cursedly LONG message and I apologize profusely. It is kind of you all to take your time to straighten me out. I hope that I do not have too many more elementary and annoying things to ask of you. Again...THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! We now return you to the ongoing drama of the "Bowerbird Saga"... Have at! Lay on! Cathy Waters -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051004/85b6e551/attachment.html From brad at chenla.org Tue Oct 4 08:01:58 2005 From: brad at chenla.org (Brad Collins) Date: Tue Oct 4 08:10:34 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] New DRM free eBook reader. Message-ID: Seen on Boing Boing. There is a new eBook reader like the Sony Libre without the DRM. It handles html, pdf and text formats.... http://www.jinke.com.cn/english/v2/index.asp Not sure about the pricing. I will be contacting them to see about getting a demo unit through my old office in Hong Kong. If anyone is interested, let me know.... b/ -- Brad Collins , Bangkok, Thailand From ian at babcockbrown.com Tue Oct 4 08:03:59 2005 From: ian at babcockbrown.com (Ian Stoba) Date: Tue Oct 4 09:04:30 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] PG in the comics Message-ID: <97C2FE00-227D-4708-A46B-B4A45C706B8A@babcockbrown.com> I saw that PG was mentioned in the "User Friendly" comic strip today: http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20051004 --Ian This email message may contain information that is confidential and proprietary to Babcock & Brown or a third party. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy the original and any copies of the original message. Babcock & Brown takes measures to protect the content of its communications. However, Babcock & Brown cannot guarantee that email messages will not be intercepted by third parties or that email messages will be free of errors or viruses. If you do not wish to receive any further e-mail from Babcock & Brown, please send an email to opt-out@babcockbrown.com. From bruce at zuhause.org Tue Oct 4 09:23:02 2005 From: bruce at zuhause.org (Bruce Albrecht) Date: Tue Oct 4 09:23:09 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Thanks and apologies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17218.44134.147637.589109@celery.zuhause.org> BunnyCAW@aol.com writes: > Okay, well, I intend to do just that, dive in with a book. Maybe it is > overwhelming to some, but I have no trouble with typing. Besides which, I don't > know how to make my scanner's text-recognition software run, so... I assume > that (save typos) there will be less proofing required of a work which is > typed as opposed to one which is scanned, anyway. It's not clear to me that typing in a book requires less proofing than one that is scanned and OCRd, but it may require a different sort of proofing. However, if you find that you are running out of steam with retyping your books, I'd like to point out that Distributed Proofreaders (http://www.pgdp.net) also has an OCR pool, so that you can scan your books and let someone else do the OCR. Bruce From cannona at fireantproductions.com Tue Oct 4 09:22:19 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Tue Oct 4 09:24:47 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Thanks and apologies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051004110051.043e0b08@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 09:45 AM 10/4/2005, you wrote: >I guess my questions should have been: What format is the output BEST >delivered in? and What programs do all of YOU use? (To compare them or >see if I already have the software on my system.) Although I am a big fan >of our language, I sometimes feel like I am speaking a foreign one! In order to make an effective comparison, we'll need to know what operating system you are using. If you are using windows, you could easily just use the simple wordpad or perhaps even notepad. They both output the plaintext format, and so should work fine. The only situation in which this might be a problem is if you have foreign characters in your book. If that is the case, then you'll need to talk to someone else as I'm not an expert on character encoding. :) Okay, well, I intend to do just that, dive in with a book. Maybe it is overwhelming to some, but I have no trouble with typing. Besides which, I don't know how to make my scanner's text-recognition software run, so... I assume that (save typos) there will be less proofing required of a work which is typed as opposed to one which is scanned, anyway. You're probably right, because as you type, you will be proofing in a way. Also, just so you know, if you wanted to scan the book, you could send the image files of each page over the internet to someone else and they could run OCR software on them and send you back the output. Alternatively, if you don't mind parting with the books, you could mail them to DP headquarters where they would have their bindings chopped off and be fed into a high speed scanner with a sheet feeder. I'm not trying to discourage you from typing them if that is what you would like to do. I'm just making sure you are aware of the alternatives. If you would like to type them, then go for it! The effort will be greatly appreciated! One other place you might want to check before you start is the in-progress list. This is a list of all of the books which have been submitted for copyright clearance, even if they have never been completed. For example, I had a book I wanted to add to the collection not too long ago. I couldn't find it in the Gutenberg catalog, but I saw that someone had submitted it for copyright clearance a couple years ago. I contacted the copyright clearance folks, and they provided me with the persons e-mail address. When I e-mailed them, they didn't have the book and weren't working on it, but they were interested in helping me proof it. Anyway, it's always a good idea to check that list so you can be sure not to duplicate effort. You can find it at http://www.dprice48.freeserve.co.uk/GutIP.html I will look over what is there, but I doubt that I'll spend that much time at it. Thanks for the suggestion, though. Looking things over is a good idea. They have a few guides which talk about how to format things. They should be useful, even if you aren't working for DP directly. Anyway, good luck, and feel free to drop back in any time, especially when you would like someone to look over the final product of your labors to proof read and offer suggestions. Sincerely Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDQqzRI7J99hVZuJcRAmQqAKCrzsKl+EnvsKr6ed8GGKcCDmEpcACg0Jf3 E6+m5/SX8eS+2L28wpTkafk= =ziNR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From BunnyCAW at aol.com Tue Oct 4 10:46:14 2005 From: BunnyCAW at aol.com (BunnyCAW@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 4 10:46:28 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: gutvol-d Digest, Vol 15, Issue 5 Message-ID: <7f.67d4e7a8.307419e6@aol.com> In a message dated 10/4/2005 12:25:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, gutvol-d-request@lists.pglaf.org writes: Alternatively, if you don't mind parting with the books, you could mail them to DP headquarters where they would have their bindings chopped off and be fed into a high speed scanner with a sheet feeder. Aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrgggggghhhhhhh! That is just too terrifying to a book NUT like myself! I know that we are heading into the Halloween time of year and all, but that is just TOO FRIGHTENING to contemplate! Sort of a book slaughterhouse! :-o Having been properly chastised, however, I have done what I SHOULD have done first thing and gone to the FAQ and read it exhaustively. (Okay, I lie, I didn't read the scanning parts AT ALL.) A LOT of the questions I had have been answered by an hour or so of reading. (Admittedly, however, I'm still a bit confused, but then I'm ALWAYS a bit confused!) I thank you all for your patience with me. I'm going do dive into a book now. Wish me luck! Cathy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051004/7dce7adb/attachment.html From cannona at fireantproductions.com Tue Oct 4 13:32:00 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Tue Oct 4 13:34:28 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: gutvol-d Digest, Vol 15, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <7f.67d4e7a8.307419e6@aol.com> References: <7f.67d4e7a8.307419e6@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051004151933.035a76e0@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 12:46 PM 10/4/2005, you wrote: >Aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrgggggghhhhhhh! > >That is just too terrifying to a book NUT like myself! I know. It is a little hard to stomach. Destroying books, especially old books, seems like a crime worthy of death. However, when you consider that they are sacrificing their little book life so that they might be reborn into a better state of existence, in which they will have far greater worth and reach many more readers than they ever could have in their ink and paper state, it's not so bad. :) Of course, typing or nondestructively scanning the book is arguably better because then no one has to die. >I know that we are heading into the Halloween time of year and all, but >that is just TOO FRIGHTENING to contemplate! Sort of a book >slaughterhouse! :-o Yes, we have certain heartless brutes which we keep around for just such jobs. :) >Having been properly chastised, however, I have done what I SHOULD have >done first thing and gone to the FAQ and read it exhaustively. (Okay, I >lie, I didn't read the scanning parts AT ALL.) A LOT of the questions I >had have been answered by an hour or so of reading. (Admittedly, however, >I'm still a bit confused, but then I'm ALWAYS a bit confused!) I thank >you all for your patience with me. I'm going do dive into a book >now. Wish me luck! Best of luck, and really, don't hesitate to come back to ask for help. Also, don't do too much work before you get that copyright clearance. You don't want to be told that it was all for not. Sincerely Aaron Cannon - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDQub1I7J99hVZuJcRAs+lAKCNgYXuCG4o/JvVi35licLcb90REACg9u2+ XfAv+0I3Yb3p8dz4PF+vUbo= =6Q/1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Tue Oct 4 17:11:17 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 4 17:11:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] New DRM free eBook reader. Message-ID: <147.4ee8c9d6.30747425@aol.com> In a message dated 10/4/2005 9:10:51 AM Mountain Daylight Time, brad@chenla.org writes: http://www.jinke.com.cn/english/v2/index.asp It handles PDF? That's a major step forward. I'd be very glad to have more information and, if possible, a unit to beta-test. As I have been in love with ebook readers for years and at present have two dedicated ebook readers plus an iPAQ that I hardly ever use, but I am a very bad techie, I'd be a good "sample reader" and would be able to edit the instruction material into something readable by most people. Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051004/51b0bebc/attachment.html From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Tue Oct 4 17:19:33 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 4 17:19:50 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Thanks and apologies Message-ID: <207.aeb5de0.30747615@aol.com> In a message dated 10/4/2005 8:45:41 AM Mountain Daylight Time, BunnyCAW@aol.com writes: What format is the output BEST delivered in? and What programs do all of YOU use? (To compare them or see if I already have the software on my system.) Although I am a big fan of our language, I sometimes feel like I am speaking a foreign one! The format is best delivered in .txt. We use many different programs; a lot of our people love programming and are constantly fiddling with it. I do not love programming, and I use Microsoft Office XP, which has a fairly recent version of Microsoft Word on it. If you want to, you can save it first into .htm, which will allow you to keep (or add back in) things like italics and bolding and so forth, and then turn in both the .txt version (which will be minus formatting) and the .htm (which will have the formatting). Really, most of us are fairly sane. Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051004/378468c1/attachment.html From BunnyCAW at aol.com Wed Oct 5 14:58:06 2005 From: BunnyCAW at aol.com (BunnyCAW@aol.com) Date: Wed Oct 5 14:58:23 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Being picky... Message-ID: <7a.7d37b590.3075a66e@aol.com> In a message dated 10/5/2005 3:00:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, gutvol-d-request@lists.pglaf.org writes: Also, don't do too much work before you get that copyright clearance. You don't want to be told that it was all for not. Aaron, I think what you mean is,"All for NAUGHT", as in "all for nothing". Just being picky, Cathy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051005/4a49d9bc/attachment.html From marcello at perathoner.de Wed Oct 5 15:55:18 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed Oct 5 15:55:35 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! Message-ID: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> I got two complaints about the wording of the PG main page. In particular I refer to these two paragraphs: "All Project Gutenberg ebooks are free as in _free beer_ for anyone living in the United States: You may download all our ebooks for your personal use for free. "Most Project Gutenberg ebooks are also free as in _free speech_: You may copy them, give them away and use them in any way you like. See the license page for details." This wording, while a bit on the "slang" side, has proved very effective and I got much less questions of the kind "May I download Moby Dick and post it on my side which is about fishing?" than before. Also, I like it for `sentimental' reasons, because it is the slogan of the Free Software Movement. But this may be just a pet of mine. One person complained about the wording on the grounds that "There ain't no such thing as a free beer." (I don't think we have to consider this one.) A different complaint reached me a few days ago: > It is not an issue of understanding the meaning of the phrase, but > rather the appropriateness of it. It is inappropriate to give the > appearance of encouraging drinking, when many of the people using the > web site are junior or senior high students. I personally think this claim is bogus and I told the claimant so. But, as I'm living in a town that is proud for its cathedral and its beer (not necessarily in that order) I may be prejudiced. I therefore ask for opinions. More: If we decide to change the wording, we need a new one ("Free lunch" would anger the libertarian even more :-) ) that conveys the idea that PG is not just a free book download service. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From davedoty at hotmail.com Wed Oct 5 16:09:26 2005 From: davedoty at hotmail.com (Dave Doty) Date: Wed Oct 5 16:26:37 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> Message-ID: Perhaps the addition of some sort of tongue-in-cheek disclaimer? (NB: Project Gutenberg neither acknowledges nor endorses the drinking of beer by anyone, including but not limited to minors and adults.), for example. Makes the point while rolling eyes that we have to do so. Dave Doty From cannona at fireantproductions.com Wed Oct 5 16:47:58 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Wed Oct 5 16:48:52 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> References: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051005181259.0432b910@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 While I doubt that a word on our web page is likely to change the drinking habits of anyone, it might still be a good idea to change it, if only for the sake of appearance. I don't see a problem with changing it to "free lunch". :) Sincerely Aaron Cannon At 05:55 PM 10/5/2005, you wrote: >I got two complaints about the wording of the PG main page. In particular >I refer to these two paragraphs: > >"All Project Gutenberg ebooks are free as in _free beer_ for anyone living >in the United States: You may download all our ebooks for your personal >use for free. > >"Most Project Gutenberg ebooks are also free as in _free speech_: You may >copy them, give them away and use them in any way you like. See the >license page for details." > >This wording, while a bit on the "slang" side, has proved very effective >and I got much less questions of the kind "May I download Moby Dick and >post it on my side which is about fishing?" than before. > >Also, I like it for `sentimental' reasons, because it is the slogan of the >Free Software Movement. But this may be just a pet of mine. > > >One person complained about the wording on the grounds that "There ain't >no such thing as a free beer." (I don't think we have to consider this one.) > > >A different complaint reached me a few days ago: > >>It is not an issue of understanding the meaning of the phrase, but >>rather the appropriateness of it. It is inappropriate to give the >>appearance of encouraging drinking, when many of the people using the >>web site are junior or senior high students. > >I personally think this claim is bogus and I told the claimant so. But, as >I'm living in a town that is proud for its cathedral and its beer (not >necessarily in that order) I may be prejudiced. I therefore ask for opinions. > > >More: If we decide to change the wording, we need a new one ("Free lunch" >would anger the libertarian even more :-) ) that conveys the idea that PG >is not just a free book download service. > > > > >-- >Marcello Perathoner >webmaster@gutenberg.org > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDRGZiI7J99hVZuJcRAs8pAJ44Vn1ilxuTNNCfKmOOVN3qjQsAkACg+Jww tdR+Qs37H0ziBF48mLspRB8= =idWe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cannona at fireantproductions.com Wed Oct 5 16:10:45 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Wed Oct 5 16:48:52 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Being picky... In-Reply-To: <7a.7d37b590.3075a66e@aol.com> References: <7a.7d37b590.3075a66e@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051005180956.0432c008@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 04:58 PM 10/5/2005, you wrote: >Aaron, > I think what you mean is,"All for NAUGHT", as in "all for nothing". Yes. You are correct. I don't know where my brain was. :) Thanks. Sincerely Aaron Cannon > - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDRGZfI7J99hVZuJcRAjjGAJwP1R54t8A3uQxwQRoWegW8jj63UQCePXqX kRkZ4irdg46Gz37UjcrlKVM= =p7qS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From JBuck814366460 at aol.com Wed Oct 5 18:00:29 2005 From: JBuck814366460 at aol.com (Jared Buck) Date: Wed Oct 5 18:00:50 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051005181259.0432b910@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> <6.2.1.2.0.20051005181259.0432b910@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <4344772D.8080109@aol.com> Free lunch is always good, i eat a lot of food (high body metabolism) so having free food always works for me :-p Jared Aaron Cannon wrote on 05/10/2005, 4:47 PM: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > While I doubt that a word on our web page is likely to change the > drinking > habits of anyone, it might still be a good idea to change it, if only for > the sake of appearance. I don't see a problem with changing it to "free > lunch". :) > > Sincerely > Aaron Cannon > > > At 05:55 PM 10/5/2005, you wrote: > >I got two complaints about the wording of the PG main page. In > particular > >I refer to these two paragraphs: > > > >"All Project Gutenberg ebooks are free as in _free beer_ for anyone > living > >in the United States: You may download all our ebooks for your personal > >use for free. > > > >"Most Project Gutenberg ebooks are also free as in _free speech_: You > may > >copy them, give them away and use them in any way you like. See the > >license page for details." > > > >This wording, while a bit on the "slang" side, has proved very effective > >and I got much less questions of the kind "May I download Moby Dick and > >post it on my side which is about fishing?" than before. > > > >Also, I like it for `sentimental' reasons, because it is the slogan > of the > >Free Software Movement. But this may be just a pet of mine. > > > > > >One person complained about the wording on the grounds that "There ain't > >no such thing as a free beer." (I don't think we have to consider > this one.) > > > > > >A different complaint reached me a few days ago: > > > >>It is not an issue of understanding the meaning of the phrase, but > >>rather the appropriateness of it. It is inappropriate to give the > >>appearance of encouraging drinking, when many of the people using the > >>web site are junior or senior high students. > > > >I personally think this claim is bogus and I told the claimant so. > But, as > >I'm living in a town that is proud for its cathedral and its beer (not > >necessarily in that order) I may be prejudiced. I therefore ask for > opinions. > > > > > >More: If we decide to change the wording, we need a new one ("Free > lunch" > >would anger the libertarian even more :-) ) that conveys the idea > that PG > >is not just a free book download service. > > > > > > > > > >-- > >Marcello Perathoner > >webmaster@gutenberg.org > > > >_______________________________________________ > >gutvol-d mailing list > >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > > > - -- > E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com > Skype: cannona > MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail > address.) > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 > Comment: Key available from all major key servers. > > iD8DBQFDRGZiI7J99hVZuJcRAs8pAJ44Vn1ilxuTNNCfKmOOVN3qjQsAkACg+Jww > tdR+Qs37H0ziBF48mLspRB8= > =idWe > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From gbuchana at rogers.com Wed Oct 5 18:46:10 2005 From: gbuchana at rogers.com (Gardner Buchanan) Date: Wed Oct 5 18:46:16 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051005181259.0432b910@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> <6.2.1.2.0.20051005181259.0432b910@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <434481E2.70608@rogers.com> Aaron Cannon wrote: > I don't see a problem with changing it to "free > lunch". :) > I hope I need not remind you that it *is* the holy month of Ramadan, and therefore fasting is expected. A devout Muslim might well be offended by your tacit encouragement to break the fast by eating a free lunch! 'Course beer's no better there. I think "free as in beer" is a well-enough established term that we can use it safely... or do we have to start self censoring "drunk with power" and such like? Go with your first instinct and use "free as in beer". It's the right thing to do. My bet is that the original complainer was just taking the piss. If he/she wasn't, there's guarantied lots to offend within the PG collection itself, so maybe its better that such people self-select out. How are we gonna feel when people start whingeing about the actual *content*? Do we start Bowdlerizing *all* of it? ============================================================ Gardner Buchanan Ottawa, ON FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today. From prosfilaes at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 19:36:15 2005 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Wed Oct 5 19:36:30 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: gutvol-d Digest, Vol 15, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051004151933.035a76e0@mail.fireantproductions.com> References: <7f.67d4e7a8.307419e6@aol.com> <6.2.1.2.0.20051004151933.035a76e0@mail.fireantproductions.com> Message-ID: <6d99d1fd0510051936j4fea910bx980cd8376dd5d930@mail.gmail.com> On 10/4/05, Aaron Cannon wrote: > Best of luck, and really, don't hesitate to come back to ask for > help. Also, don't do too much work before you get that copyright > clearance. You don't want to be told that it was all for not. I wouldn't stress out too much about this rule. Just because you have a copyright clearance doesn't mean that no one got a clearance at the same time; until David processes the clearances for his webpage, you won't get a message if you overlap, and that might take up to a week. From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Wed Oct 5 20:27:56 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Wed Oct 5 20:28:22 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! Message-ID: <1c2.32728703.3075f3bc@aol.com> In a message dated 10/5/2005 7:46:27 PM Mountain Daylight Time, gbuchana@rogers.com writes: I hope I need not remind you that it *is* the holy month of Ramadan, and therefore fasting is expected. A devout Muslim might well be offended by your tacit encouragement to break the fast by eating a free lunch! Good grief. Leave it alone. I don't drink beer, but the phrase is idiomatic and therefore should be accepted as an idiom. Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051005/262e99af/attachment-0001.html From cannona at fireantproductions.com Wed Oct 5 21:44:32 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Wed Oct 5 21:51:03 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: <434481E2.70608@rogers.com> References: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> <6.2.1.2.0.20051005181259.0432b910@mail.fireantproductions.com> <434481E2.70608@rogers.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051005234145.046479a0@mail.fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 08:46 PM 10/5/2005, you wrote: >I hope I need not remind you that it *is* the holy month >of Ramadan, and therefore fasting is expected. A devout >Muslim might well be offended by your tacit encouragement >to break the fast by eating a free lunch! LOL. Point taken. We can't please every one. So, perhaps we should just leave it alone, like you suggest. Sincerely Aaron Cannon >-- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDRK0wI7J99hVZuJcRAomTAJ9DZQaka1xkrFePK6gaZJ7BTsiRcACfQvgu zcfELJxaGicqvPOfxlbGlsk= =nNDa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From joshua at hutchinson.net Thu Oct 6 05:43:25 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Thu Oct 6 05:43:30 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! Message-ID: <20051006124325.E16339E7DC@ws6-2.us4.outblaze.com> *whoosh* Anne, dear, that was the sound of sarcasm going right over your head. Josh -> Just teasing, please don't get upset! ----- Original Message ----- From: Gutenberg9443@aol.com To: gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 23:27:56 EDT > > > > In a message dated 10/5/2005 7:46:27 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > gbuchana@rogers.com writes: > > I hope I need not remind you that it *is* the holy month > of Ramadan, and therefore fasting is expected. A devout > Muslim might well be offended by your tacit encouragement > to break the fast by eating a free lunch! > > > > Good grief. > > Leave it alone. I don't drink beer, but the phrase is idiomatic and > therefore should be accepted as an idiom. > > > Anne > > Do you like to breathe? > Then save the trees! > Begin a personal relationship > with an ebook > TODAY! > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From Gutenberg9443 at aol.com Thu Oct 6 08:39:52 2005 From: Gutenberg9443 at aol.com (Gutenberg9443@aol.com) Date: Thu Oct 6 08:40:04 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! Message-ID: In a message dated 10/6/2005 6:43:35 AM Mountain Daylight Time, joshua@hutchinson.net writes: Anne, dear, that was the sound of sarcasm going right over your head. My husband, children, and friends also say I'm not very good at sarcasm. I don't think I shall bother to cry about it. I have far too much else to do. Anne Do you like to breathe? Then save the trees! Begin a personal relationship with an ebook TODAY! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051006/b78ae718/attachment.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu Oct 6 08:43:43 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Thu Oct 6 08:43:53 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! Message-ID: <1a7.40a6cd60.3076a02f@aol.com> anne said: > My husband, children, and friends > also say I'm not very good at sarcasm. you can add my name to that list, anne. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051006/84b8ddcd/attachment.html From fvandrog at scripps.edu Thu Oct 6 09:03:25 2005 From: fvandrog at scripps.edu (Frank van Drogen) Date: Thu Oct 6 09:03:30 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: <1c2.32728703.3075f3bc@aol.com> References: <1c2.32728703.3075f3bc@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.8.0.20051006090048.0340df40@mail.scripps.edu> > > >Good grief. > >Leave it alone. I don't drink beer, but the phrase is idiomatic and >therefore should be accepted as an idiom. > > >Anne That's exactely the problem I have with it. It is probably perfectely understandable for native English speakers. Non noative speakers with a high level probably don't have a problem with it either. That leaves probably 95% of the world population in question about it. Why not make it a clear statement ? Frank From kth at srv.net Thu Oct 6 10:17:55 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu Oct 6 10:13:36 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.8.0.20051006090048.0340df40@mail.scripps.edu> References: <1c2.32728703.3075f3bc@aol.com> <6.2.0.8.0.20051006090048.0340df40@mail.scripps.edu> Message-ID: <43455C43.5040804@srv.net> Frank van Drogen wrote: > >> >> >> Good grief. >> >> Leave it alone. I don't drink beer, but the phrase is idiomatic and >> therefore should be accepted as an idiom. >> >> >> Anne > > > > That's exactely the problem I have with it. It is probably perfectely > understandable for native English speakers. Non noative speakers with > a high level probably don't have a problem with it either. That leaves > probably 95% of the world population in question about it. Why not > make it a clear statement ? > > Frank > Add footnotes to the page (ala Pratchett)? From jon at noring.name Fri Oct 7 19:10:02 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Fri Oct 7 19:32:35 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Prince 5.0: XML + CSS to PDF formatter Message-ID: <1907448693.20051007201002@noring.name> [I'm forwarding this announcement originally posted to the eBook-Community. Jon Noring] From: Michael Day Subject: Prince 5.0: XML + CSS to PDF formatter We are very happy to announce the release of Prince 5.0, a new version of our batch formatter for converting XML + CSS into PDF. - Even more CSS support - Even more PDF features - Quick and easy server integration - Runs on Windows, Linux and MacOS X To download an evaluation version please see our website: http://www.princexml.com This major new version boasts a huge array of new features and improvements. The highlights included support for footnotes, page floats, cross-references, CSS positioning, and UNICODE. PDF output now supports encryption, bookmarks, links, and metadata, while XML input supports XInclude and xml:id. A new Windows GUI with built-in preview is provided along with new support for Mac OS X and new modules for Java, COM, ASP, PHP, and ColdFusion. Best regards, Michael -- Print XML with Prince! http://www.princexml.com From jtinsley at pobox.com Sat Oct 8 00:10:02 2005 From: jtinsley at pobox.com (Jim Tinsley) Date: Sat Oct 8 00:10:24 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Cthulhu loves you! Message-ID: <20051008071002.GB24756@panix.com> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20051008 jim From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Oct 10 02:30:51 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon Oct 10 02:31:17 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] bad-mouthing Message-ID: <1eb.450fe593.307b8ecb@aol.com> if people keep badmouthing me on the d.p. forums, i will have to return there and defend myself... (yes, i'm talking about _you_, jon ingram. and others too.) do you want that? -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051010/78162d88/attachment.html From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Wed Oct 19 11:29:44 2005 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Wed Oct 19 11:43:52 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Weekly Project Gutenberg Newsletter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:54:23 -0700 (PDT), Michael Hart wrote: | | Holland Banning The Burka? | | Rita Verdonk, Holland's hardline Integration Minister, | known as the Iron Lady for her hardline stances, simply | declined to meet with Muslim officials who who shake | hands with here as a result of their sexist views. | | She current leads a Dutch movement to ban the burka | in some situations. In addition there is a current | lawsuit being filed by a woman who was refused a job | at the prestigious Muslim University in Amsterdam | because she refused to wear a headscarf. | | A court case last year went against Muslim women who | had not been allowed to wear burkas during a social | work and childcare course. The court ruled that the | children should not be prevented from seeing who was | taking care of them. | | Holland would become the first country in Europe to | ban the burka in specific situations in public, but | several major Belgian cities including Ghent, Antwerp | and others banned the public wearing of burkas and | have starting issuing hefty municipal fines. | | Some Italian cities, such as Como, have have passed | laws banning the hiding of the face in public, and | are imposing fines for wearing Burkas as a result. | | In addition, France and some of Germany have banned | the hijab headscarf in schools and public buildings, | this following similar measures in Tunisia and also | even reported in Turkey, a majority Muslim nation. | | Sources: BBC, The Times and The Sunday Times | www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1823334,00.html | BBC News via WILL AM radio, ~9AM, 10/17 | | [For centuries Holland has been the greatest example | of religious tolerance in the world, so this marks | a major historical change.] Muslim women showing only their eyes are very common in Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK Supermarkets. I see one or two every time I go into Morrisons, Victoria, Girlington. -- Dave Fawthrop "Intelligent Design?" my knees say *not*. "Intelligent Design?" my back says *not*. From joshua at hutchinson.net Wed Oct 19 11:51:35 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Wed Oct 19 11:51:48 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Weekly Project Gutenberg Newsletter Message-ID: <20051019185135.93CEC4F73A@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Fawthrop" > > On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:54:23 -0700 (PDT), Michael Hart > wrote: > > > > | > | Holland Banning The Burka? > | > > Muslim women showing only their eyes are very common in Bradford, West > Yorkshire, UK Supermarkets. I see one or two every time I go into > Morrisons, Victoria, Girlington. Ok, so *why* was this in the PG newsletter and *why* did you post the reply to the whole group? Did I miss where any of it had anything to do with PG? At all? In anyway, shape or form? Josh From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Oct 19 12:47:46 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed Oct 19 12:48:08 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Weekly Project Gutenberg Newsletter Message-ID: <53.3276a361.3087fce2@aol.com> michael, i really enjoy the news briefs you put in your "founder's section" of the newsletter! keep up the good work... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051019/94a69b7c/attachment.html From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Thu Oct 20 02:04:15 2005 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Thu Oct 20 02:35:22 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Weekly Project Gutenberg Newsletter In-Reply-To: <53.3276a361.3087fce2@aol.com> References: <53.3276a361.3087fce2@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:47:46 EDT, Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: | michael, i really enjoy the news briefs you put | in your "founder's section" of the newsletter! | | keep up the good work... Duck and Run Joshua Hutchinson will be after you ;-) -- Dave Fawthrop "Intelligent Design?" my knees say *not*. "Intelligent Design?" my back says *not*. From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Thu Oct 20 02:03:51 2005 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Thu Oct 20 02:57:24 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Weekly Project Gutenberg Newsletter In-Reply-To: <20051019185135.93CEC4F73A@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20051019185135.93CEC4F73A@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <97jel1h2a5upevkgl0lpbppdqgjmbr3p9e@4ax.com> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:51:35 -0500, "Joshua Hutchinson" wrote: | | ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Dave Fawthrop" | > | > On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:54:23 -0700 (PDT), Michael Hart | > wrote: | > | > | > | > | | > | Holland Banning The Burka? | > | | > | > Muslim women showing only their eyes are very common in Bradford, West | > Yorkshire, UK Supermarkets. I see one or two every time I go into | > Morrisons, Victoria, Girlington. | | | Ok, so *why* was this in the PG newsletter and *why* did you post the reply to the whole group? Follow up was set to MH personally, which was IMO inappropriate. | Did I miss where any of it had anything to do with PG? At all? In anyway, shape or form? If MH posts something it becomes On Topic. -- Dave Fawthrop "Intelligent Design?" my knees say *not*. "Intelligent Design?" my back says *not*. From jmdyck at ibiblio.org Fri Oct 21 15:26:47 2005 From: jmdyck at ibiblio.org (Michael Dyck) Date: Fri Oct 21 15:30:07 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] "Banning the Burka" article Message-ID: <43596B27.B87E096F@ibiblio.org> (Re-iterating the topic raised by Dave Fawthrop...) This week's issue of the PG newsletter (Part 1a) http://www.gutenberg.org/newsletter/archive/PGWeekly_2005_10_19_Part_1a.txt included an article entitled "Holland Banning The Burka?". Why? Does its inclusion further PG's mission of "encouraging the creation and distribution of eBooks"? -Michael Dyck From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Oct 21 15:41:23 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri Oct 21 15:41:39 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] "Banning the Burka" article Message-ID: <147.50217381.308ac893@aol.com> j. michael said: > Does its inclusion further PG's mission of > "encouraging the creation and distribution of eBooks"? well, when the rightwingers start burning p.g. dvd's -- and if someone wants to provoke them, even now, does anyone here really think it would be difficult? -- you'll understand what you seem to be missing now... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051021/19b6b0a1/attachment.html From cannona at fireantproductions.com Fri Oct 21 21:08:08 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Fri Oct 21 21:09:34 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] "Banning the Burka" article In-Reply-To: <43596B27.B87E096F@ibiblio.org> References: <43596B27.B87E096F@ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.0.20051021230449.046ecbe8@fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Agreed. It's irrelevant to PG. Once again, I encourage (and I believe others do as well) Michael Hart to put articles and comments such as these in a separate blog or newsletter, but not in the official newsletter of PG. Sincerely Aaron Cannon At 05:26 PM 10/21/2005, you wrote: >(Re-iterating the topic raised by Dave Fawthrop...) > >This week's issue of the PG newsletter (Part 1a) > http://www.gutenberg.org/newsletter/archive/PGWeekly_2005_10_19_Part_1a.txt >included an article entitled "Holland Banning The Burka?". > >Why? > >Does its inclusion further PG's mission of "encouraging the creation >and distribution of eBooks"? > >-Michael Dyck > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDWbtzI7J99hVZuJcRAsR9AJ4mLXOspW73BGt5n29aDHqBwcTJ+QCcCRg3 OaiXIJL4Qetdue/Br6iNPNo= =QFIg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gbnewby at pglaf.org Mon Oct 24 10:44:17 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Mon Oct 24 10:44:20 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> References: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <20051024174417.GA416@pglaf.org> < extracted > > More: If we decide to change the wording, we need a new one ("Free > lunch" would anger the libertarian even more :-) ) that conveys the idea > that PG is not just a free book download service. Any forward progress on this, Marcello? I don't like "free as in beer," and have mentioned it once or twice. I think there are plenty of alternatives: "Fostering the Public Domain" "Expanding the Public Domain" "Thousands of Free eBooks" "The World's Great Literature" "Produced by Thousands of Volunteers" What about a rotating marquee? -- Greg < original > On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 12:55:18AM +0200, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > I got two complaints about the wording of the PG main page. In > particular I refer to these two paragraphs: > > "All Project Gutenberg ebooks are free as in _free beer_ for anyone > living in the United States: You may download all our ebooks for your > personal use for free. > > "Most Project Gutenberg ebooks are also free as in _free speech_: You > may copy them, give them away and use them in any way you like. See the > license page for details." > > This wording, while a bit on the "slang" side, has proved very effective > and I got much less questions of the kind "May I download Moby Dick and > post it on my side which is about fishing?" than before. > > Also, I like it for `sentimental' reasons, because it is the slogan of > the Free Software Movement. But this may be just a pet of mine. > > > One person complained about the wording on the grounds that "There ain't > no such thing as a free beer." (I don't think we have to consider this one.) > > > A different complaint reached me a few days ago: > > >It is not an issue of understanding the meaning of the phrase, but > >rather the appropriateness of it. It is inappropriate to give the > >appearance of encouraging drinking, when many of the people using the > >web site are junior or senior high students. > > I personally think this claim is bogus and I told the claimant so. But, > as I'm living in a town that is proud for its cathedral and its beer > (not necessarily in that order) I may be prejudiced. I therefore ask for > opinions. > > > More: If we decide to change the wording, we need a new one ("Free > lunch" would anger the libertarian even more :-) ) that conveys the idea > that PG is not just a free book download service. > > > > > -- > Marcello Perathoner > webmaster@gutenberg.org > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From ajhaines at shaw.ca Mon Oct 24 15:35:45 2005 From: ajhaines at shaw.ca (Al Haines (shaw)) Date: Mon Oct 24 15:45:50 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Missing page in book - Kitty Canary Message-ID: <000501c5d8eb$46518930$6401a8c0@ahainesp2600> I have a copy of Kitty Canary, by Kate Langley Bosher. It was published by Harper & Brothers, and has a copyright date of 1918. It's missing the leaf containing pages 3 and 4. Would anyone happen to have images of these two pages? (If not, I'll put in a transcriber's note about the missing pages, and finish/upload the book, as it stands.) From krausyaoj at ameritech.net Mon Oct 24 16:32:10 2005 From: krausyaoj at ameritech.net (Jeffrey Kraus-yao) Date: Mon Oct 24 16:37:42 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Missing page in book - Kitty Canary In-Reply-To: <000501c5d8eb$46518930$6401a8c0@ahainesp2600> Message-ID: <002501c5d8f3$28550440$0402a8c0@p3> I can checkout the copy of this book at the library and will send scans of pages 3 and 4 if available. I will be at the library this week on Wednesday. Author: Bosher, Kate Langley, 1865-1932. Title: Kitty Canary; a novel, by Kate Langley Bosher ... Publisher: New York, London, Harper & Brothers [1918] Description: [3] ., 189, [1] p. col. plate. 20 cm. OCLC: (OCoLC)08091849 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- Location: Memorial Library Stacks Regular Size Shelving Catalog: UW Madison Call Number: PS3503 O6 K5 1918 Copy Number: 1 Status: Not Checked Out -----Original Message----- From: gutvol-d-bounces@lists.pglaf.org [mailto:gutvol-d-bounces@lists.pglaf.org] On Behalf Of Al Haines (shaw) Sent: 24 October, 2005 17:36 To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion Subject: [gutvol-d] Missing page in book - Kitty Canary I have a copy of Kitty Canary, by Kate Langley Bosher. It was published by Harper & Brothers, and has a copyright date of 1918. It's missing the leaf containing pages 3 and 4. Would anyone happen to have images of these two pages? (If not, I'll put in a transcriber's note about the missing pages, and finish/upload the book, as it stands.) _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Oct 24 17:07:28 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon Oct 24 17:07:45 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Missing page in book - Kitty Canary Message-ID: <1a0.3f51384c.308ed140@aol.com> aj said: > (If not, I'll put in a transcriber's note about the missing pages, > and finish/upload the book, as it stands.) perhaps you can upload it, but it won't be "finished"... have you tried putting a notice on the "missing pages" thread on the d.p. forums? -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051024/6a3418c5/attachment.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Oct 24 17:09:35 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon Oct 24 17:09:53 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Missing page in book - Kitty Canary Message-ID: <9b.6aeae7d6.308ed1bf@aol.com> jeffrey said: > I can checkout the copy of this book at the library yay jeffrey! :+) -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051024/df511f56/attachment.html From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Mon Oct 24 23:52:32 2005 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Mon Oct 24 23:53:04 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: <20051024174417.GA416@pglaf.org> References: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> <20051024174417.GA416@pglaf.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:44:17 -0700, Greg Newby wrote: | < extracted > | > More: If we decide to change the wording, we need a new one ("Free | > lunch" would anger the libertarian even more :-) ) that conveys the idea | > that PG is not just a free book download service. | | Any forward progress on this, Marcello? I don't like | "free as in beer," and have mentioned it once or twice. | | I think there are plenty of alternatives: | "Fostering the Public Domain" | "Expanding the Public Domain" | "Thousands of Free eBooks" | "The World's Great Literature" | "Produced by Thousands of Volunteers" | | What about a rotating marquee? Just to point out that "free as in beer," must be a purely American expression which means nothing to the English, and I am unable to work out exactly why beer should be free. -- Dave Fawthrop "Intelligent Design?" my knees say *not*. "Intelligent Design?" my back says *not*. From joshua at hutchinson.net Tue Oct 25 05:20:30 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Tue Oct 25 05:20:33 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! Message-ID: <20051025122030.5EC4B4F488@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Fawthrop" > > Just to point out that "free as in beer," must be a purely American > expression which means nothing to the English, and I am unable to work out > exactly why beer should be free. Don't worry. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to us American's either. It is a hacker expression mostly. Though where they are getting free beer all the time from I certainly don't know ... Josh PS The expression is part of a two phrase dichotomy. Free speech (rights) and free stuff (beer). The two types of free. From davedoty at hotmail.com Tue Oct 25 05:27:26 2005 From: davedoty at hotmail.com (Dave Doty) Date: Tue Oct 25 05:27:29 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: <20051025122030.5EC4B4F488@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: >From: "Joshua Hutchinson" >PS The expression is part of a two phrase dichotomy. Free speech (rights) >and free stuff (beer). The two types of free. And if we have to use the phrase "free stuff" to explain the phrase "free beer," maybe we've hit on the alternate choice right there. For the record, I'm not familiar with "free beer" as some sort of idiom, but I understood the distinction from "free speech" instantly. I'm confused why people are confused, to be honest. But if we can find an alternate phrase that maintains the parallelism, I say go for it if it makes people happy. From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Tue Oct 25 06:05:38 2005 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Tue Oct 25 06:08:57 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: References: <20051025122030.5EC4B4F488@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:27:26 +0000, "Dave Doty" wrote: | >From: "Joshua Hutchinson" | | | >PS The expression is part of a two phrase dichotomy. Free speech (rights) | >and free stuff (beer). The two types of free. | | And if we have to use the phrase "free stuff" to explain the phrase "free | beer," maybe we've hit on the alternate choice right there. | | For the record, I'm not familiar with "free beer" as some sort of idiom, but | I understood the distinction from "free speech" instantly. I'm confused why | people are confused, to be honest. But if we can find an alternate phrase | that maintains the parallelism, I say go for it if it makes people happy. Just to point out that although we have free speech in the UK, we do not bang on about it like the leftpondians. So any parallelism will fall flat on its face here. When writing for a worldwide audience, I try to write things which will be understood by readers in the UK, India, Australia, etc not forgetting the USA. This is IME quite^h^h^h^hextremely difficult. -- Dave Fawthrop "Intelligent Design?" my knees say *not*. "Intelligent Design?" my back says *not*. From marcello at perathoner.de Tue Oct 25 06:58:10 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue Oct 25 06:58:15 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: References: <20051025122030.5EC4B4F488@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <435E39F2.90800@perathoner.de> Dave Fawthrop wrote: > When writing for a worldwide audience, I try to write things which will be > understood by readers in the UK, India, Australia, etc not forgetting the > USA. This is IME quite^h^h^h^hextremely difficult. So does the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4642461.stm -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Oct 25 07:37:28 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 25 07:37:35 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! Message-ID: <143.5006aa2c.308f9d28@aol.com> dave said: > and I am unable to work out > exactly why beer should be free. um, why not? sounds like a great idea to me! :+) -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051025/2f9fdf71/attachment.html From marcello at perathoner.de Tue Oct 25 07:40:10 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue Oct 25 07:40:15 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: <20051024174417.GA416@pglaf.org> References: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> <20051024174417.GA416@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <435E43CA.7010806@perathoner.de> Greg Newby wrote: >>More: If we decide to change the wording, we need a new one ("Free >>lunch" would anger the libertarian even more :-) ) that conveys the idea >>that PG is not just a free book download service. > > > Any forward progress on this, Marcello? I don't like > "free as in beer," and have mentioned it once or twice. > > I think there are plenty of alternatives: > "Fostering the Public Domain" > "Expanding the Public Domain" > "Thousands of Free eBooks" > "The World's Great Literature" > "Produced by Thousands of Volunteers" > > What about a rotating marquee? Presently the PG site is just a place where people go to download books. I think we should make more of a political stance with the PG web site. Disney employs a few senators to "Shrink the Public Domain", we should at least leverage the popularity of PG to build up awareness in the population that "Public Domain" is not a thing that comes to you like the sunrise after a slept-thru night. "Expanding the Public Domain" is a good slogan, but first you have to explain what "Public Domain" is, that it isn't about downloading freebies but about the people owning and using the literary works their culture is built upon. What I really want to do is to put up a good paragraph on the main page (maybe a teaser on every page) and build a section about the cultural/educational/economical advantages of short copyright terms (and maybe some serious discussion about DRM / proprietary vs. open source / software patents etc.) -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From traverso at dm.unipi.it Tue Oct 25 08:12:30 2005 From: traverso at dm.unipi.it (Carlo Traverso) Date: Tue Oct 25 07:51:08 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: <435E43CA.7010806@perathoner.de> (message from Marcello Perathoner on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:40:10 +0200) References: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> <20051024174417.GA416@pglaf.org> <435E43CA.7010806@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <200510251512.j9PFCUa06557@pico.dm.unipi.it> Some further possibilities: "Here the Public Domain becomes Public" "Publishing the Public Domain" "Bringing the Public Domain to the Public" "Public Domain made Public" "Brings Public Domain to its owner" The idea being that the "public domain" with PG is no longer an abstract concept, but a reality. Carlo From radicks at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 25 09:15:37 2005 From: radicks at bellsouth.net (Dick Adicks) Date: Tue Oct 25 17:28:26 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer! Message-ID: I'm sort of in the dark about this phrase, not having observed it on the website, but it does seem to treat flippantly the admirable dedication and amazing technical competence of the many volunteers who produce PG texts. The closest analogy to PG is the library, one existing in an ethereal cyberspace. Could PG represent itself as a "cosmic library"? Free libraries are too good to be true. There is still hope as long as anybody on the planet can walk, even metaphorically, into a free library. Dick Adicks From gbnewby at pglaf.org Tue Oct 25 18:55:45 2005 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Tue Oct 25 18:55:46 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: <435E43CA.7010806@perathoner.de> References: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> <20051024174417.GA416@pglaf.org> <435E43CA.7010806@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <20051026015545.GA2346@pglaf.org> On Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 04:40:10PM +0200, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Greg Newby wrote: > > >>More: If we decide to change the wording, we need a new one ("Free > >>lunch" would anger the libertarian even more :-) ) that conveys the idea > >>that PG is not just a free book download service. > > > > > >Any forward progress on this, Marcello? I don't like > >"free as in beer," and have mentioned it once or twice. > > > >I think there are plenty of alternatives: > >"Fostering the Public Domain" > >"Expanding the Public Domain" > >"Thousands of Free eBooks" > >"The World's Great Literature" > >"Produced by Thousands of Volunteers" > > > >What about a rotating marquee? > > Presently the PG site is just a place where people go to download books. > I think we should make more of a political stance with the PG web site. I'm sympathetic to this (obviously), though we need to recognize that not everyone who reads or creates our eBooks has the same political views. (The types of political statements MH has included in some newsletters resulted in some criticism on the -d list, which makes it clear that people interested in PG do not share the same views.) > Disney employs a few senators to "Shrink the Public Domain", we should > at least leverage the popularity of PG to build up awareness in the > population that "Public Domain" is not a thing that comes to you like > the sunrise after a slept-thru night. > > "Expanding the Public Domain" is a good slogan, but first you have to > explain what "Public Domain" is, that it isn't about downloading > freebies but about the people owning and using the literary works their > culture is built upon. This is certainly "on mission" for us. (The second paragraph... not the part about buying our own senators, which might be enjoyable but somewhat too expensive.) > What I really want to do is to put up a good paragraph on the main page > (maybe a teaser on every page) and build a section about the > cultural/educational/economical advantages of short copyright terms (and > maybe some serious discussion about DRM / proprietary vs. open source / > software patents etc.) (A) Why not just link to our pals? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain (B) There are lots of places for discussion of public domain... Union for the Public Domain is one...Creative Commons another. I think that *hosting* such a discussion is something we'd do less well than other parties. I think hosting educational materials (content, versus discussion) worthwhile. (C) I see no reason why we can't remove or rotate out Free as in Beer immediately, rather than waiting for any of the above. -- Greg From gbuchana at rogers.com Tue Oct 25 19:40:49 2005 From: gbuchana at rogers.com (Gardner Buchanan) Date: Tue Oct 25 19:40:57 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: References: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> <20051024174417.GA416@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <435EECB1.1060709@rogers.com> Dave Fawthrop wrote: > Just to point out that "free as in beer," must be a purely American > expression which means nothing to the English, and I am unable to work out > exactly why beer should be free. Not at all. It is an expression common amongst the "open source" community world-wide. "Free as in beer" is just a flippant expression to disambiguate free of charge from free of legal encumbrance. The matched pair are: Free as in speach -- No technical, legal or ethical encumbrance. Free as in beer -- No charge. Nearly all of PG is free as in speach. "Free as in beer" also has the extra connotation of a free thing that really isn't or should not be free -- maybe like that first "free" shot of drugs. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libre http://freeasinspeechandbeer.com/drupal/ ============================================================ Gardner Buchanan Ottawa, ON FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today. From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Wed Oct 26 00:17:11 2005 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Wed Oct 26 00:17:41 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: <435EECB1.1060709@rogers.com> References: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> <20051024174417.GA416@pglaf.org> <435EECB1.1060709@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:40:49 -0400, Gardner Buchanan wrote: | Dave Fawthrop wrote: | | > Just to point out that "free as in beer," must be a purely American | > expression which means nothing to the English, and I am unable to work out | > exactly why beer should be free. | | Not at all. It is an expression common amongst the "open source" | community world-wide. "Free as in beer" is just a flippant expression | to disambiguate free of charge from free of legal encumbrance. The | matched pair are: | | Free as in speach -- No technical, legal or ethical encumbrance. | Free as in beer -- No charge. | | Nearly all of PG is free as in speach. | | "Free as in beer" also has the extra connotation of a free thing | that really isn't or should not be free -- maybe like that first | "free" shot of drugs. Only in *some* parts of the US. What you are saying is that the rest of the world does not matter and can be ignored :-( -- Dave Fawthrop "Intelligent Design?" my knees say *not*. "Intelligent Design?" my back says *not*. From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Wed Oct 26 00:30:49 2005 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Wed Oct 26 00:31:19 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: References: <20051025122030.5EC4B4F488@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:05:38 +0100, Dave Fawthrop wrote: | When writing for a worldwide audience, I try to write things which will be | understood by readers in the UK, India, Australia, etc not forgetting the | USA. This is IME quite^h^h^h^hextremely difficult. Sorry about following up my own post, but a little explanation of how to | write things which will be | understood by readers in the UK, India, Australia, etc not forgetting the | USA. seems to be in order. Assume that the reader knows *nothing* except that meaning of words which is common to all versions of English. Assume that he/she knows *nothing* about the culture you live in, or any other culture. Avoid words which have different meanings in the various versions of English, trunk, pavement etc etc etc. Avoid words which are only used in one culture or version of English, such as "lathi" Avoid all similes metaphors, parallels and the like. Avoid all references to your own culture and *all* minority cultures. The result will be deadly dull, but understandable to most ?English? speakers. -- Dave Fawthrop "Intelligent Design?" my knees say *not*. "Intelligent Design?" my back says *not*. From jon at noring.name Wed Oct 26 05:33:50 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Wed Oct 26 05:33:56 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [forward] Bookscanning Launch and Vision of an Open Library Message-ID: <18010106800.20051026063350@noring.name> [Note: Brewster Kahle of the Internet Archive posted last night the following article to 'archivists-talk'. Enjoy! Jon Noring] At an Internet Archive event in San Francisco tonight 14 libraries and MSN joined the Open Content Alliance. MSN kicked off their association by committing to scan 150k books in 2006! (this is a big deal, in my opinion). Also, a vision website has a cool bookviewer, the first books from the University of California in a cool bookviewer, and a book on the vision of an Open Library: http://www.openlibrary.org Here is a posting about the event http://www.archive.org/iathreads/ post-view.php?id=45685 -brewster From cannona at fireantproductions.com Wed Oct 26 06:58:11 2005 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Wed Oct 26 07:03:02 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: <20051026015545.GA2346@pglaf.org> References: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> <20051024174417.GA416@pglaf.org> <435E43CA.7010806@perathoner.de> <20051026015545.GA2346@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.0.20051026084732.046877a0@fireantproductions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 08:55 PM 10/25/2005, you wrote: >I'm sympathetic to this (obviously), though we need to recognize that >not everyone who reads or creates our eBooks has the same political >views. (The types of political statements MH has included in some >newsletters resulted in some criticism on the -d list, which makes it >clear that people interested in PG do not share the same views.) I think it's important to distinguish between the views which MH put forward and the political views of PG. MH published political statements which had nothing to do with Ebooks or the public domain. It was the total lack of relevancy to PG and their potential to drive away volunteers which was objected to. On the other hand, publishing political views which are inline with the mission of PG just makes sense. I doubt anyone will be surprised if we put something on our web site which em plies that we are in favor of shortening copyright terms. Sincerely Aaron Cannon > > Disney employs a few senators to "Shrink the Public Domain", we should > > at least leverage the popularity of PG to build up awareness in the > > population that "Public Domain" is not a thing that comes to you like > > the sunrise after a slept-thru night. > > > > "Expanding the Public Domain" is a good slogan, but first you have to > > explain what "Public Domain" is, that it isn't about downloading > > freebies but about the people owning and using the literary works their > > culture is built upon. > >This is certainly "on mission" for us. (The second paragraph... >not the part about buying our own senators, which might be enjoyable >but somewhat too expensive.) > > > What I really want to do is to put up a good paragraph on the main page > > (maybe a teaser on every page) and build a section about the > > cultural/educational/economical advantages of short copyright terms (and > > maybe some serious discussion about DRM / proprietary vs. open source / > > software patents etc.) > >(A) Why not just link to our pals? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain > >(B) There are lots of places for discussion of public domain... > Union for the Public Domain is one...Creative Commons another. > I think that *hosting* such a discussion is something we'd do > less well than other parties. I think hosting educational materials > (content, versus discussion) worthwhile. > >(C) I see no reason why we can't remove or rotate out Free as in Beer > immediately, rather than waiting for any of the above. > > -- Greg > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d - -- E-mail: cannona@fireantproductions.com Skype: cannona MSN Messenger: cannona@hotmail.com (Do not send E-mail to the hotmail address.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFDX4yYI7J99hVZuJcRArOhAJ4xyGJ4aUJrhfYV0CXozATzAfD9QQCgxKrv n0Ow+ffpaz/PzvdaUfQ05/8= =Vj0c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From marcello at perathoner.de Wed Oct 26 08:03:51 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed Oct 26 08:03:58 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: <20051026015545.GA2346@pglaf.org> References: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> <20051024174417.GA416@pglaf.org> <435E43CA.7010806@perathoner.de> <20051026015545.GA2346@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <435F9AD7.9080601@perathoner.de> Greg Newby wrote: >>Presently the PG site is just a place where people go to download books. >>I think we should make more of a political stance with the PG web site. > > I'm sympathetic to this (obviously), though we need to recognize that > not everyone who reads or creates our eBooks has the same political > views. (The types of political statements MH has included in some > newsletters resulted in some criticism on the -d list, which makes it > clear that people interested in PG do not share the same views.) Because they were totally unrelated to PG, like wearing headscarves. I don't think anybody that works for PG advocates longer copyright terms or stricter DRM. The mission of PG is to make more ebooks available, shortening copyright terms is an ideal way to achieve that. > (A) Why not just link to our pals? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain > > (B) There are lots of places for discussion of public domain... > Union for the Public Domain is one...Creative Commons another. > I think that *hosting* such a discussion is something we'd do > less well than other parties. I think hosting educational materials > (content, versus discussion) worthwhile. Wikipedia is NPOV. We should advocate shorter copyright terms. > (C) I see no reason why we can't remove or rotate out Free as in Beer > immediately, rather than waiting for any of the above. I'm writing up a new page about "free" right now. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From marcello at perathoner.de Wed Oct 26 08:06:48 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed Oct 26 08:06:54 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: References: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> <20051024174417.GA416@pglaf.org> <435EECB1.1060709@rogers.com> Message-ID: <435F9B88.1050505@perathoner.de> Dave Fawthrop wrote: > | Not at all. It is an expression common amongst the "open source" > | community world-wide. "Free as in beer" is just a flippant expression > | to disambiguate free of charge from free of legal encumbrance. The > | matched pair are: > > Only in *some* parts of the US. > What you are saying is that the rest of the world does not matter and can > be ignored :-( I can assure you that "free beer" is very well understood all over Germany, Austria and Switzerland. The word 'Freibier' is even in the "Duden" (the most authoritative German dictionary). -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From marcello at perathoner.de Wed Oct 26 08:23:07 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed Oct 26 08:23:13 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: References: <20051025122030.5EC4B4F488@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <435F9F5B.3040000@perathoner.de> Dave Fawthrop wrote: > Assume that the reader knows *nothing* except that meaning of words which > is common to all versions of English. > Assume that he/she knows *nothing* about the culture you live in, or any > other culture. > Avoid words which have different meanings in the various versions of > English, trunk, pavement etc etc etc. > Avoid words which are only used in one culture or version of English, such > as "lathi" > Avoid all similes metaphors, parallels and the like. > Avoid all references to your own culture and *all* minority cultures. Then we should never use the words: etext, ebook, public domain, because they are clearly "subculture" ? -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From jnoring at netbeam.net Wed Oct 26 09:52:40 2005 From: jnoring at netbeam.net (jnoring@netbeam.net) Date: Wed Oct 26 10:00:18 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [Press Release] OSoft Partners with OpenReader Message-ID: <137822651.20051026105240@noring.name> Press release located at: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/051026/265702.html?.v=1 Here's the text version: ********************************************************************** OSoft Partners with OpenReader Wednesday, October 26, 2005 Taking the "Fright" Out of e-books -- With Open Standards TACOMA, Wash.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Oct. 26, 2005 -- Buying e-books can be Halloween-scary. They come in many electronic formats -- everything from Microsoft Reader to obscure ones cooked up by hobbyists. You can buy 'em online, only to discover you've paid for the wrong format. Have you ever tried to return an e-book? But what if you could download an e-book and know the format was right for your PDA, cell phone, tablet or desktop computer system? Suppose an orange logo on the box reassured you: "OpenReader compatible"? And what if you saw a similar logo at an online retailer, so you could confidently buy the book? "That's our vision for OpenReader -- to help e-publications be as compatible and easy to buy and use as music CDs," says Mark Carey, president of OSoft.com. "We're modifying our existing ThoutReader(TM) technology to adopt XML, an international e-document standard that no one owns and everyone can use." The new format will come from the OpenReader Consortium (openreader.org), headed by e-book standards expert Jon Noring. Among the consortium's cofounders are XML expert Michael Day in Australia and Rick Barry, former information services chief for the World Bank, an archives-and-records specialist. Meanwhile OSoft will turn its XML-based ThoutReader(TM) into OpenReader by next May. "Anyone can build OpenReader-compatible software," says Noring, a veteran of years of standards efforts within the e-book industry. "But OSoft is the first to act. Microsoft and Adobe promote their proprietary formats, and Google and Yahoo are more focused on scanning images of books than promoting a standard format that can be customized and will look great on the screen." Victor McCrary, who initiated e-book standards efforts while at the National Institute of Standards and Technology, has endorsed OpenReader. So have leading e-bookstores like eBooks.com and Fictionwise.com. "Whether it's Google or a small online store, we're eager to help everyone adopt open standards," says co-founder David Rothman, OpenReader's strategy and external relations director. "We'll raze the tower of eBabel so e-books can be reliably read 500 years from now. Reading software may change over time but the basic electronic format can remain the same." Contact: OSoft Mark Carey, 253-284-0475 mcarey@osoft.com or OpenReader Jon Noring, 801-253-4037 info@openreader.org From marcello at perathoner.de Wed Oct 26 11:15:59 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed Oct 26 11:17:04 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [Press Release] OSoft Partners with OpenReader In-Reply-To: <137822651.20051026105240@noring.name> References: <137822651.20051026105240@noring.name> Message-ID: <435FC7DF.8040407@perathoner.de> jnoring@netbeam.net wrote: > The new format will come from the OpenReader Consortium > (openreader.org), headed by e-book standards expert Jon Noring. Ebook standards are great! There are sooo many to choose from. And now we get another one! I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. What we *really* need is a GPLed reader software that groks any open standard and runs *today* on PalmOS, PocketPC, Symbian, etc. not an announced proprietary software that will run on PocketPC in version 1.0 and on PalmOS in version 3.0 in the year 2525. To get even the 1.0 features at http://openreader.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=73&Itemid=80 into a commercially distributable application you'll need 5 skilled programmers and 2 years time (if you start with the gecko renderer). Show me these resources. (You can contract me but my fees are pretty steep if I have to develop on Windows. :-) -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From jmdyck at ibiblio.org Wed Oct 26 12:30:47 2005 From: jmdyck at ibiblio.org (Michael Dyck) Date: Wed Oct 26 12:32:26 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! References: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> <20051024174417.GA416@pglaf.org> <435E43CA.7010806@perathoner.de> <20051026015545.GA2346@pglaf.org> <435F9AD7.9080601@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <435FD967.BFDAB25A@ibiblio.org> Marcello Perathoner wrote: > > I don't think anybody that works for PG advocates longer copyright > terms or stricter DRM. I'm not so confident of that. I can easily imagine someone who advocates longer copyright terms or stricter DRM, who *also* agrees with PG's stated mission of encouraging the creation and distribution of ebooks. On the other hand, it seems unlikely that such a person would be comfortable with PG's "cultural norms", so (to almost agree with you) I would guess that the number working for PG would be relatively small. -Michael From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Oct 26 14:10:40 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed Oct 26 14:10:57 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [Press Release] OSoft Partners with OpenReader Message-ID: <1c1.33fa5576.30914ad0@aol.com> e-book viewer-programs are cool. i wish the best of luck to mark carey in his programming! -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051026/108d5450/attachment.html From prosfilaes at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 18:15:50 2005 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Wed Oct 26 18:16:05 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: References: <20051025122030.5EC4B4F488@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <6d99d1fd0510261815j2fb87c1ej22c166a40eb080f0@mail.gmail.com> On 10/26/05, Dave Fawthrop wrote: > The result will be deadly dull, but understandable to most ?English? > speakers. But if you want an attractive website, as opposed to a VCR manual, you don't want the result to be deadly dull. From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Oct 27 05:17:33 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu Oct 27 05:17:39 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] Free Beer ! In-Reply-To: <435F9AD7.9080601@perathoner.de> References: <434459D6.8070502@perathoner.de> <20051024174417.GA416@pglaf.org> <435E43CA.7010806@perathoner.de> <20051026015545.GA2346@pglaf.org> <435F9AD7.9080601@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <4360C55D.90401@perathoner.de> Marcello Perathoner wrote: >> (C) I see no reason why we can't remove or rotate out Free as in Beer >> immediately, rather than waiting for any of the above. > > I'm writing up a new page about "free" right now. That's done. Now I'd like to expand on that with some good strong advocacy of shorter copyright terms. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From lee at novomail.net Thu Oct 27 07:57:11 2005 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Thu Oct 27 07:57:19 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [Press Release] OSoft Partners with OpenReader In-Reply-To: <435FC7DF.8040407@perathoner.de> References: <137822651.20051026105240@noring.name> <435FC7DF.8040407@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <4360EAC7.5000000@novomail.net> Marcello Perathoner wrote: > What we *really* need is a GPLed reader software that groks any open > standard and runs *today* on PalmOS, PocketPC, Symbian, etc. not an > announced proprietary software that will run on PocketPC in version > 1.0 and on PalmOS in version 3.0 in the year 2525. What would be even better would be a free, open-source, cross-platform User Agent which is _not_ encumbered by the GPL. > To get even the 1.0 features at > > http://openreader.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=73&Itemid=80 > > > into a commercially distributable application you'll need 5 skilled > programmers and 2 years time (if you start with the gecko renderer). Of course, nowhere does OpenReader propose a commercial application (although it does not forclose the possibility), so any mention of a commercial app here is a bit of a red herring. I have no idea where you might find a commercial organization that might be willing to hire you, but if you want to participate for free in an open-source project for free, you're welcome to join us at OpenReader. From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Oct 27 08:19:01 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu Oct 27 08:19:08 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [Press Release] OSoft Partners with OpenReader In-Reply-To: <4360EAC7.5000000@novomail.net> References: <137822651.20051026105240@noring.name> <435FC7DF.8040407@perathoner.de> <4360EAC7.5000000@novomail.net> Message-ID: <4360EFE5.2050709@perathoner.de> Lee Passey wrote: > What would be even better would be a free, open-source, cross-platform > User Agent which is _not_ encumbered by the GPL. I like it better "encumbered" so nobody can take the source, add some proprietary tags and take over the standard. > Of course, nowhere does OpenReader propose a commercial application > (although it does not forclose the possibility), so any mention of a > commercial app here is a bit of a red herring. Proposing a standard without proof of implementability is a red herring. Wanting to see at least one implementation before adopting a standard is just common sense. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From lee at novomail.net Thu Oct 27 11:06:15 2005 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Thu Oct 27 11:06:24 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [Press Release] OSoft Partners with OpenReader In-Reply-To: <4360EFE5.2050709@perathoner.de> References: <137822651.20051026105240@noring.name> <435FC7DF.8040407@perathoner.de> <4360EAC7.5000000@novomail.net> <4360EFE5.2050709@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <43611717.6030901@novomail.net> Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Lee Passey wrote: > >> What would be even better would be a free, open-source, >> cross-platform User Agent which is _not_ encumbered by the GPL. > > > I like it better "encumbered" so nobody can take the source, add some > proprietary tags and take over the standard. I understand. There are some people who just can't stand the thought of giving up control. GPLed software is free in the sense of free beer, but not free in the sense of free speech. I need not pay anyone to acquire it, but I can't use it freely; specifically, I cannot combine it with non-free software and charge for the non-free portions. Usually when I point this out, the response is "nobody is _requiring_ you to use GPL code. If you don't like the restrictions, don't use the code." This statement is true enough, and is what I do (when looking for source code I first look at the license, and if it is GPL I move on without considering it further; and while I contribute to several open-source projects I do _not_ contribute to GPLed projects) -- but again it is a red herring. It is a distraction from the central issue, which is that GPLed software is _not_ freely usable, whatever its proponents may claim. And the success of such non-GPLed open source projects such as Apache and Mozilla indicates that the GPL probably isn't even necessary to accomplish the FSF's goals. >> Of course, nowhere does OpenReader propose a commercial application >> (although it does not forclose the possibility), so any mention of a >> commercial app here is a bit of a red herring. > > > Proposing a standard without proof of implementability is a red herring. From The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition (2000): RED HERRING: noun: 1. A smoked herring having a reddish color. 2. Something that draws attention away from the central issue. ETYMOLOGY: From its use to distract hunting dogs from the trail. STANDARD: noun: ... 5. Something, such as a practice or a product, that is widely recognized or employed, especially because of its excellence... PROPOSE: transitive verb: 1. To put forward for consideration, discussion, or adoption; suggest: So... The original post announced that at least one commercial organization is committed to adopting the proposed OpenReader standard. That announcement did nothing to minimize OpenReader's own commitment to fostering development of a truly free, open-source, cross-platform User Agent which would also support the OpenReader format. Perceptions as to what may be required for a commercial company to create an OpenReader-compatible User Agent may be interesting (at least _I_ find it interesting) but in the context of the press release it _is_ a bit of a red herring. On the other hand, proposing a standard a standard without first proving that it implementable (and I suppose the best proof of implementability [sic] is an actual implementation), whatever else it may be, is _not_ a red herring, because proposing a standard is not a distraction from the central issue, at least not without having a context so we know what the central issue is. > Wanting to see at least one implementation before adopting a standard > is just common sense. What you are suggesting here is a recipe for inaction. The OpenReader format can hardly be called a standard, as widespread recognition, adoption, and employment is still a way off, but _proposals_ must always precede adoption. If no one adopts a proposal until someone else does it first, no proposal will _ever_ be adopted. OpenReader has created a specification, and proposed that it should become a standard. The exact parameters of that specification are not yet decided, and are being discussed even now on the OpenReader-Format mailing list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openreader-format/). If companies and organizations adopt the specification (as OSoft has done) it may well become a standard. As there are no implementations, it would certainly be a misuse of the language to claim that the OpenReader format already _is_ a standard, but it is certainly not a misuse of the language to state that it is a _proposed_ standard even without implementations. The question as to whether or not the OpenReader format will ever become a standard is a judgment based on a number of factors; waiting for wide spread adoption is a slam-dunk way of making that judgment (essentially agreeing with what has become common knowledge), but it is not the only way, and is not even the most common-sensical approach. The question as to whether or not the OpenReader format _should_ become a standard is a more interesting question, and for those who have concluded that it should, what can be done to _help_ it become a standard is even more interesting. From joshua at hutchinson.net Thu Oct 27 12:06:14 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Thu Oct 27 12:06:22 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [Press Release] OSoft Partners with OpenReader Message-ID: <20051027190614.E4AF64F50C@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Passey" > What you are suggesting here is a recipe for inaction. The OpenReader format > can hardly be called a standard, as widespread recognition, adoption, and > employment is still a way off, but _proposals_ must always precede adoption. You are right in that the proposal comes first. But anyone can propose anything. (See: bowerbird) Granted, the openreader proposal is well documented and from what little I've seen, well-though out. BUT... It is still nothing more than a proposal because no one can really DO anything with it. Let me draw a parallel. The MPEG standards were first a proposal (draft) and then a crude implementation was created by the group. It was by no means a fully realized application, but it was enough that people could see what the heck the long dreary draft was talking about. THEN other groups created bazillion different implementations that we have today. Put together a crude OpenReader compliant application so that people can see what the heck it is. Josh PS And you could say that the lack of a reader IS a red-herring ... it is distracting from the fact that there is proposed standard because no one can ACCESS texts marked in the proposed standard. From lee at novomail.net Thu Oct 27 13:05:07 2005 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Thu Oct 27 13:05:21 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [Press Release] OSoft Partners with OpenReader In-Reply-To: <20051027190614.E4AF64F50C@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20051027190614.E4AF64F50C@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <436132F3.4060602@novomail.net> Joshua Hutchinson wrote: >Granted, the openreader proposal is well documented and from what little I've seen, well-thought out. > >BUT... > >It is still nothing more than a proposal because no one can really DO anything with it. > >Let me draw a parallel. The MPEG standards were first a proposal (draft) and then a crude implementation was created by the group. It was by no means a fully realized application, but it was enough that people could see what the heck the long dreary draft was talking about. THEN other groups created bazillion different implementations that we have today. > >Put together a crude OpenReader compliant application so that people can see what the heck it is. > I suspect we are in violent agreement on this point. The OpenReader proposal is even now in the early stages of exactly the same historical process you have described for the MPEG standard. The proposal has been made, and is being discussed. The very announcement that started this thread is an indication that a first implementation is being worked on. The Thout Reader developed by OSoft is, in fact, an open-source, GPLed, User Agent written in Java (see http://sourceforge.net/projects/thout/). Of course, as the new Thout Reader develops, some content will have to be made available in the new format so that the implementation can be tested, but I suspect that will be easy enough seeing as how the OpenReader format is likely to be a relatively minor variation on the existing OEBPS format. My only point is that the OR format should not be dismissed merely because it is still early in the process, and that those people who believe that a standardized format is a good idea should step up to the plate and support the format _now_ to improve the likelihood that it will become a widely adopted standard in the future. From joshua at hutchinson.net Thu Oct 27 13:27:40 2005 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Thu Oct 27 13:27:49 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [Press Release] OSoft Partners with OpenReader Message-ID: <20051027202740.DC401EE3B8@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Passey" > I suspect we are in violent agreement on this point. The OpenReader proposal > is even now in the early stages of exactly the same historical process you > have described for the MPEG standard. The proposal has been made, and is being > discussed. The very announcement that started this thread is an indication > that a first implementation is being worked on. The Thout Reader developed by > OSoft is, in fact, an open-source, GPLed, User Agent written in Java (see > http://sourceforge.net/projects/thout/). > Excellent. For my part, I'd be happy to help test a conversion process to go from our TEI master document to OpenReader's format. The software would have to be open source and run on a linux box, but beyond that, knock yourself out. The above offer is not necessary to Lee (or just to Lee) but anyone that wants to work on conversion routines. The more formats PG can support, the better, imo. JHutch PS TEI can currently output txt, html and pdf ... if there is a converter out there that will go from HTML to openreader or txt to openreader, that might be a good starting point to work from. From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Oct 27 13:43:27 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu Oct 27 13:43:39 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [Press Release] OSoft Partners with OpenReader In-Reply-To: <43611717.6030901@novomail.net> References: <137822651.20051026105240@noring.name> <435FC7DF.8040407@perathoner.de> <4360EAC7.5000000@novomail.net> <4360EFE5.2050709@perathoner.de> <43611717.6030901@novomail.net> Message-ID: <43613BEF.9010906@perathoner.de> Lee Passey wrote: > I understand. There are some people who just can't stand the thought of > giving up control. GPLed software is free in the sense of free beer, but > not free in the sense of free speech. I need not pay anyone to acquire > it, but I can't use it freely; specifically, I cannot combine it with > non-free software and charge for the non-free portions. Wrong. You can sell GPLed software. Red Hat does it. Novell does it. You can too! All the GPL requires is that you GPL your changes too. You take something from the community, you give something back to the community. That's only fair. Taking the community's work freely whilst sitting on your changes is not fair. > What you are suggesting here is a recipe for inaction. The OpenReader > format can hardly be called a standard, as widespread recognition, > adoption, and employment is still a way off, but _proposals_ must always > precede adoption. If no one adopts a proposal until someone else does it > first, no proposal will _ever_ be adopted. Standard, test-suite and reference implementations should be developed in parallel. W3C is starting to require a complete test-suite and at least 2 working implementations for any standard to exit Candidate stage. This is why there always is (and always was) a working PGTEI installation that implements new features before those features get publicly announced in The Guide (which is reference and test-suite at the same time). The OpenReader "proposal" is nothing more than a Calvinesque x-mas wish list (Part 1: from "Atom Bomb" to "Grenade Launcher"). Of course, openreader.org admits the "proposal" are just the jotted down results of a brainstorm. But the press release is a Bowerbirdesque mis-representation of the state of development. It says: "Meanwhile OSoft will turn its XML-based ThoutReader(TM) into OpenReader by next May." The facts are: - there isn't even an OpenReader standard yet. To build that alone will take much longer than May. - ThoutReader(tm) today needs Java and 256 MB RAM. Not what I'd call an ebook reader. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Oct 27 13:46:06 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu Oct 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [Press Release] OSoft Partners with OpenReader In-Reply-To: <436132F3.4060602@novomail.net> References: <20051027190614.E4AF64F50C@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> <436132F3.4060602@novomail.net> Message-ID: <43613C8E.6000505@perathoner.de> Lee Passey wrote: > The Thout Reader developed by OSoft is, in fact, an open-source, GPLed, > User Agent written in Java (see http://sourceforge.net/projects/thout/). Nothing in there for you :-) > the > OpenReader format is likely to be a relatively minor variation on the > existing OEBPS format. Question: why this new format if it is only a minor variation of an existing format? -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Oct 27 13:49:45 2005 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu Oct 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [Press Release] OSoft Partners with OpenReader In-Reply-To: <20051027202740.DC401EE3B8@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20051027202740.DC401EE3B8@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <43613D69.8070805@perathoner.de> Joshua Hutchinson wrote: > PS TEI can currently output txt, html and pdf ... if there is a > converter out there that will go from HTML to openreader or txt to > openreader, that might be a good starting point to work from. The TEI converter outputs XHTML 1.0 with Dublin Core metadata. An OEB reader should grok that without further conversion, thou I didn't test it. (Reason: no OEB reader for PalmOS nor Linux.) -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu Oct 27 13:55:19 2005 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Thu Oct 27 13:55:33 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [Press Release] OSoft Partners with OpenReader Message-ID: <1dc.4848b8f4.309298b7@aol.com> oh geez, stop throwing rocks... let the openreader people go about their work. the idea that any one format will become "the" standard is a pipedream, but why harass the people who dream? the o.c.a. has just made another announcement about a $5-million contribution from microsoft, and debuted an e-book viewer-using-ajax-in-a-browser, and you guys are debating a frickin' _press_release_... i roll my eyes... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20051027/489f7e9a/attachment.html From jon at noring.name Thu Oct 27 14:28:25 2005 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Thu Oct 27 14:29:38 2005 Subject: [gutvol-d] [Press Release] OSoft Partners with OpenReader In-Reply-To: <43613C8E.6000505@perathoner.de> References: <20051027190614.E4AF64F50C@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> <436132F3.4060602@novomail.net> <43613C8E.6000505@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <1194847659.20051027152825@noring.name> Marcello asked: > Lee Passey wrote: >> the OpenReader format is likely to be a relatively minor variation >> on the existing OEBPS format. > Question: why this new format if it is only a minor variation of an > existing format? Good question. First, OEBPS is not a distributable consumer format. Rather, it is best described as a publication framework which will comprise multiple files. A minimal OEBPS Publication will comprise a Package document (the "control center" of the publication), at least one XML content document, and possibly a CSS style sheet. It can comprise multiple content documents, multiple style sheets, image files, etc. (just like a web site might) -- if one wants, an OEBPS Publication may comprise hundreds and even thousands of files. OEBPS does not (nor does any other recommended specification of IDPF) specify an encapsulation format (e.g., like zip), which is obviously needed if one is to distribute an OEBPS Publication to a reader. So, OpenReader delves into the issue of the best way to encapsulate a XML-based publication framework such as OEBPS and its cousins. Second, the current OEBPS spec, version 1.2, is pretty much the same as version 1.0 released in 1999. Since then, a lot has been learned as to what works and doesn't work in OEBPS, and how it can be improved to meet present and future needs. Primarily, the biggest changes will be in the Package file, but there will also be added support for SVG, MathML and XInclude (and there's no clean way to augment OEBPS 1.2 to support these features without actually breaking OEBPS 1.2 conformance.) With regards to the additions/changes in the Package file, the following are noted (it is to be considered a partial list): 1) Add a required hierarchical table of contents (OEBPS currently has no machine readable table of contents.) The accessibility community needs such a table of contents (see, for example, the 2005 Digital Talking Book NISO specification.) 2) Provide for element fallbacks. That is, the reading system may substitute an element in some content document with a fallback, such as to an image. This will be especially useful for islands of SVG and MathML, and even for complex tables. The current OEBPS does not provide for element fallbacks and trying to "shoe-horn" it into OEBPS has proven essentially impossible without mangling the purpose of OEBPS or even breaking conformance. For example, in the document 'example.xml' we may have: ...
In the package we may specify the backup of 'example.xml#table65' to be an image, say 'table65.png' The user agent, may, at its discretion, replace the with the image table65.png, or provide it in addition to trying to render the table. This is especially useful for lower resolution, smaller screens where complex tables just may not render well. The idea of OpenReader is that it is intended to be a typographically-rich format, but which will gracefully "lean out" for viewing on limited resource hardware. It's like buying an audio CD. You can play it on $500,000 audiophile systems and it will sound awesome, but you can also play it on a $10 Walmart special with crappy fidelity yet still enjoy the music, even if muffled and distorted. 3) Strengthen the feature of "out-of-spine" content. It is implied in OEBPS, but needs to be formalized in OpenReader. Interestingly, once "out-of-spine" is handled by OpenReader user agents, they will now be able to trivially and natively handle things like the TEI tag and other inflow amplifications of text intended to be rendered separately, such as in a popup, footnote or sidebar. For example, we might have the following TEI-like markup:

An example paragraph with an inline note.This is the inline note. We'd like the user agent to extract the note from the main flow and present it in a popup or as a footnote.

OpenReader user agents will now be able to *natively* (without CSS) handle markup like this. Web browsers can't. This is side-benefit which the OEBPS "out-of-spine" construct gives us. 4) Create a mechanism to embed fonts which user agents can optionally install and use. 5) Create a formal mechanism for a publisher to include cover art and later multimedia. 6) Provide a way that a publisher can "linearize" all the content in a publication, both in-spine and out-of-spine. Useful for printing out an entire publication which has out-of-spine content. 7) More powerful CSS style sheet assignment mechanism. Essentially all style sheets will now be specified in the Package and eliminated from the content documents entirely (in HTML no more ,