From tb at baechler.net Wed Feb 1 00:02:02 2006 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Wed Feb 1 00:01:47 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] "Lady Chatterly's Lover" public domain in the U.S.? In-Reply-To: <15cfa2a50601301529s22d9772bje78f49a792185c14@mail.gmail.co m> References: <913752685.20060130155626@noring.name> <15cfa2a50601301529s22d9772bje78f49a792185c14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060131235916.036052f0@baechler.net> Hello all. Not that this means anything, but I saw an audio version of this on the Internet Archive. Since the IA is based in the US, I would presume that they cleared the copyright but maybe not. It looks like a volunteer human reading. Details on which source edition are vague or nonexistant. You can look if you want. Just search for it at http://www.archive.org/. I'm not sure if it is in the audio collection or the ourmedia collection so I suggest using the general search form. If this is still under copyright, someone should tell them so they can remove it or move it to a European server. It was posted last August so could be gone by now. From tb at baechler.net Wed Feb 1 00:06:04 2006 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Wed Feb 1 00:05:48 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Anyone recomend a good free wisywig html editor to PG standards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060201000232.03612100@baechler.net> Hello dave. I beg of you, please don't use Microsoft FrontPage! It has a huge bloat problem and doesn't comply with web standards. Just try the standard "hello world" to see what I mean. Also the pages it generates are not very accessible to the blind without a lot of work. I suggest you look at http://www.nvu.com/. It is open source. It works and looks similar to FP from what a sighted person told me (I'm blind so I don't know) and should be easy to use. It follows web standards. I'm not sure if it produces xhtml or xml but I know it produces more compact html and seems to work fine with documents created with FP. From tb at baechler.net Wed Feb 1 00:10:37 2006 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Wed Feb 1 00:10:21 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Language free version of guiguts? In-Reply-To: References: <2e5.8ddc4c.30f9ebc2@aol.com> <3156339d0601140820kf0ff17dsf5894499b1d8237e@mail.gmail.com> <43C963C5.4080400@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060201000836.035f9410@baechler.net> Hi. I'm not trying to step on toes here or offend you, but why not just fix the dozen errors it found and submit to PG with a note that you already fixed the errors and the rest are false positives? I haven't submitted to PG before but I think there is a way to include a note to the WWs either with the file or at the top. Just explain that the errors are because of the dialect and don't really exist. At 06:55 AM 1/31/2006, you wrote: >On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:13:12 +0000, Dave Fawthrop > wrote: > >I have just finished another of Hartley's Dialect Books, Hartley's >Yorkshire ditties Second Series and put it through Gutcheck. It is a tiny >book, 4 1/2 ins * 6 1/2 Ins and only 143 pages 3062 lines of PG Etext. >Gutcheck throws 526 errors. All of which are wrong, except about 10 are >trying to correct errors in the original text. It only found about a >dozen real errors. From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Feb 1 02:45:12 2006 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 1 02:45:23 2006 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] blah blah blog Message-ID: <1ef.4b0de1cb.3111eb38@aol.com> ian said: > We'll just have to take your word > for how good these "routines" are then. well, until i release the app, yep. or you can not believe it, don't matter much to me. you're obviously new around these parts, as these points have been made before, so i'll 'splain you something simple here. i'm not asking you to "take my word". i'm telling you that you can prove this for yourself, to yourself, by yourself... write the routines. you'll see they work. keep track of the time you spend doing it. after it ends up as a few years of your life, you'll think it's worth a piece of change too. how big the piece of change depends upon how much you think a few years of your life is worth. so, how much _is_ your life worth? > You're kidding right ? Your code might be > fantastic but you're deluding yourself if you think > anyone will pay you six figures for a text processing app. it's a marketplace. sellers charge what they want. buyers decide what price they will pay. if the two find a mutual ground, the sale will be made, and if they do not, then no sale will be made that day. ok? for the record, though, amazon.com bought mobipocket for about 3.5 million dollars, u.s., according to estimates. by my count, that is 7 figures. > Although with an all-volunteer project > its hard to define and enforce the format. i think you'd agree my format is an easy one, and could be "enforced" with little difficulty. it's actually very close to the format that is even now being "enforced", in most regards. judge for yourself, though, by reviewing the test-suite that i made, which is available here: > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/test-suite/test-suite.zml > I assume the pdf there is generated > from the zml ? via what mechanism? > a single conversion step > or via somthing like latex ? inside of the z.m.l. viewer-program, in which you have already set your preferences according to your desires (on things like font, textsize, leading, and many others), just print to a .pdf driver, and the .pdf will be created... > Any reason to not go with one of the > existing plain-text markup languages > that already exist and have > existing conversion tools ? > reST, asciidoc and others. none of them were targeted directly enough for books. z.m.l. was derived from actual hands-on experience with the conventions present in the project gutenberg e-library. this gave me a sharp focus at exactly the right perspective; i was able to implement every thing i needed, and no others. however... given my experience now, i think i could advise any of those other methodologies on how they might do what z.m.l. does. > Is there a format description for z.m.l ? well, yes, but i see it's not online. so i'll put a copy up. if you're in a hurry, you can join the viewer beta-test -- send an e-mail to zml_talk@yahoogroups.com -- and download the most recent viewer, which will have a copy of "the 11 rules of z.m.l." contained within it... you could also check the archives of this listserve, as i've sent it here on a couple different occasions. but if you can wait a couple days, i'll put it up online. > Do you have existing tools/parsers for z.m.l with > freely available code? Or is that another 6 figures ?? :) roll your own. the rules are very simple. > and how is this different from what gutenmark does ? > Apart from hopefully fewer errors in the html or latex output ? gutenmark gave up because of the inconsistencies i point out. thus, it's an excellent example of what _could_ have been, if only a simple concession to attain a minimal amount of consistency had been made, and acted upon. you can judge the quality of my .html versions by looking at the "alice" example that i cited earlier... (i won't pretend my .html converter is finished yet, but i also won't pretend to care all that much about getting it done, since a web-browser is a bad viewer. but it's important to support the internet in general, and equally important to support the p.d.a. option.) > Surely this is competely orthogonal to the choice of markup language. the point is that you don't need heavy markup to get a kick-ass high-performance e-book experience, so it is a mistake to pay the price of doing heavy markup. > uh - just because you use whitespace > instead of to indicate headings > doesn't mean its not markup. well, it means that it's _zen_ markup. because you can't see it. it's invisible. and as such, it doesn't muck up the reading experience, so it's easy to edit. clean, simple, graceful, all the good stuff. compared to this elegance, markup is cruft. > oh and the fact that you've named it > Zen *markup* language :) oh, so i see you _did_ get the joke. that's good, i was a bit worried there. :+) -bowerbird p.s. "z.m.l. -- it's two steps better than x.m.l." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060201/852d7ca1/attachment-0001.html From joshua at hutchinson.net Wed Feb 1 06:03:06 2006 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Wed Feb 1 06:03:14 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Language free version of guiguts? Message-ID: <20060201140306.AE6E04F4FB@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave Fawthrop" > > With my other hat on I write "intelligent" language software, Low 90% > correct is very bad, above 99% correct is acceptable. For a voluntary > organisation I would be accept 50% correct. > Run a spellcheck on that same document. If you get even the low 90% that you deem very bad, I'd be amazed. GutCheck is working on something with even MORE ambiguous rules... grammar. 50% correct wouldn't be just acceptable, it would be outright, amazingly, fantasically, beyond expectations ... GOOD. Josh From hart at pglaf.org Wed Feb 1 07:55:46 2006 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Wed Feb 1 07:55:48 2006 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] blah blah blog In-Reply-To: <6d99d1fd0601311204g15258afcxe6e276df9543eed8@mail.gmail.com> References: <202.11261918.310d2757@aol.com> <43DE8E8E.5090900@novomail.net> <43DE991F.5070801@novomail.net> <6d99d1fd0601311204g15258afcxe6e276df9543eed8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, David Starner wrote: > On 1/31/06, Michael Hart wrote: >> Once again the major point is that most of the work has already been in >> the system for you before you came along, and it is up to you to, "Take >> matters into your own hands," as one put it, and do the minuscule works >> that are required to make the books completely consistent with your own >> philosophy of how eBooks should be created. >> >> There's nothing wrong with what such people are asking, other than that >> they are asking someone else to do it for them, free of charge. >> >> "An Unfunded Mandate" as the politicians often refer to such things. > > Please don't bite people because they don't work the way you do. All > he said is that Gutenberg books aren't layed out optimally for him. > There's nothing wrong with someone discussing how things could be > better, in their opinion. He didn't ask anyone to do anything for him. I guess you have a different way of interpreting what bowerbird says. I keep encouraging him to encourage others, rather than to discourage, and that this is more likely to get him what he says he wants. Personally, I worry that he might prefer to proven right by history, rather than by carrying his own plans to fruition, at least with the army of volunteers we have at hand. I do hope that he fines someone to pay for his work to the tune he hopes, and that he, or someone in a similar position, will eventually create something along the order of his dreams. I just think it would/could/should be now not later, and via volunteers rather than via some billionaire who gives him an enterprise grant, venture capital, etc. We've seen the billionaire approach to eBooks, and, frankly, it will be hard to imagine that such approaches could not have had any worse effect on the eBook world, even had that been their intention. That said, I/we can still hope the change that in the future. . . . From marcello at perathoner.de Wed Feb 1 09:55:12 2006 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed Feb 1 09:55:28 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Language free version of guiguts? In-Reply-To: <1ef.4b0b5db7.3111646d@aol.com> References: <1ef.4b0b5db7.3111646d@aol.com> Message-ID: <43E0F600.1080308@perathoner.de> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > yep, that's me, and not some rogue impostor, just > mailed from my girlfriend's account, so you know. The love affair between bowerbird and bowerbird is one of the longest lasting in the history of ebooks. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Feb 1 13:00:13 2006 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 1 13:00:19 2006 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] blah blah blog Message-ID: <194.4f968fc2.31127b5d@aol.com> michael said: > I guess you have a different way of interpreting what bowerbird says. i think you're getting some of the references mixed up. but it would be too complicated to explain. > I keep encouraging him to encourage others, rather than to discourage encouragement is in the eye of the beholder... > and that this is more likely to get him what he says he wants. once again, this is not a matter of "what i want". to continue to operate under that erroneous assumption is to be misguided... when i want a consistent e-library, i will rework your e-texts. it's no big deal. in my spare time, i can probably do it in a year. no big deal. if you gave me a dozen volunteers, it'd be a month. (yes, i say that jokingly, since i know you don't "give" volunteers; they don't take your orders; _they_ decide what they want to do.) > Personally, I worry that he might prefer to proven right by history, > rather than by carrying his own plans to fruition when i am proven right by history, others will carry my plans to fruition. or, as is more likely, when others stumble upon the same truths that i have stumbled upon, and such truths prove to be the generative force for the "plans" of those people in the future, _then_ _they_ will make _their_ plans come to fruition... and i'll be as much of a footnote in those plans as ian feldman, if either of us is included at all... you can't stop an idea whose time has come. it's too grandiose to think these are "my" ideas. there is a truth out there -- that a document's structure can be indicated via plain-text means and "markup" that is "invisible" -- and anyone who taps into this truth is equally empowered. i have told people here about this truth, hoping that they would grasp it, but they have made it totally clear that they do not _wish_ to grasp it. fine. no problem. it would have made your life easier, but you _can_ live your life without it... nevertheless, other people _will_ discover it. other people already _have_ discovered it, and they are in the process of "making it work", so i'm not worried about the future, not in any way. (well, i'm worried about the very real chance that human beings will bring about our own extinction, but if/when that happens, our markup systems will be one of the last things we'll need to worry about.) > at least with the army of volunteers we have at hand. i don't think you have _any_ volunteers for the job of making the library more consistent. and if there is no call for them, from the "top" of this bureaucracy, you never will have any, either. but if i am wrong, i can certainly provide any such volunteers with tools. but remember, the favor they'd do is for you, not me. > I do hope that he fines someone > to pay for his work to the tune he hopes interesting slip there -- "fines someone"... :+) > and that he, or someone in a similar position, will > eventually create something along the order of his dreams. did i mention i'm in the process of putting up lots of examples? > I just think it would/could/should be now not later, and did i mention i'm putting up lots of examples _now_? > and via volunteers rather than via some billionaire who > gives him an enterprise grant, venture capital, etc. i'm fine with volunteers. i'm fine with a billionaire's money. i'm fine sitting alone in my girlfriend's spare room with her g4. i have no complaints. i enjoy life. and smile when i write posts. :+) > We've seen the billionaire approach to eBooks, and, frankly, > it will be hard to imagine that such approaches could not > have had any worse effect on the eBook world, even had that > been their intention. i quite agree. and if i do take a billionaire's money, it will be because i know i am able to do the job right. (or it _could_ just be because i _want_ to take a billionaire's money. but even then, i'll make sure i do no harm to the future of e-books.) > That said, I/we can still hope the change that in the future. . . . if changing me is part of your plan, i'd say it might be easier to change your plan instead... ;+) -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060201/8ce88ade/attachment.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Feb 1 14:17:33 2006 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 1 14:17:38 2006 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] blah blah blog Message-ID: <26d.5119e06.31128d7d@aol.com> a description of the zen markup language format can be found at: > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/test-suite/zml11rules.txt i didn't examine this old file closely to see if i would update any of it, but i'm sure that the vast majority of what it includes is still current... the aim is to make the format simple enough that a fourth-grader can understand it and use it productively, so i'm interested in the feedback that any fourth-graders out there might have... :+) -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060201/c2c4cd99/attachment.html From hart at pglaf.org Thu Feb 2 09:51:27 2006 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu Feb 2 09:51:29 2006 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] blah blah blog In-Reply-To: <194.4f968fc2.31127b5d@aol.com> References: <194.4f968fc2.31127b5d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Feb 2006 Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > michael said: >> I guess you have a different way of interpreting what bowerbird says. > > i think you're getting some of the references mixed up. > but it would be too complicated to explain. Certainly an easy way out. >> I keep encouraging him to encourage others, rather than to discourage > > encouragement is in the eye of the beholder... Perhaps then it's time to change your aim. >> and that this is more likely to get him what he says he wants. > > once again, this is not a matter of "what i want". to continue to > operate under that erroneous assumption is to be misguided... You certainly make no effort to hide what you want, but rather to hide that it is you who want it. > when i want a consistent e-library, i will rework your e-texts. "Take things into your own hands." > it's no big deal. in my spare time, i can probably do it in a year. > no big deal. if you gave me a dozen volunteers, it'd be a month. That's what I've been suggesting all along. That you put up a dozen examples every so often to generate publicity, which we would gladly mention in the Newsletter [save this message!], and then your dozen volunteers should show up in response, should they like what they see. "Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege of doing so, too." Voltaire > (yes, i say that jokingly, since i know you don't "give" volunteers; > they don't take your orders; _they_ decide what they want to do.) However, my response is NOT in jest, we will be only to happy to help, as with all such suggested projects. >> Personally, I worry that he might prefer to proven right by history, >> rather than by carrying his own plans to fruition > > when i am proven right by history, > others will carry my plans to fruition. Perhaps, if you do more in the way of encouragements, you will see your plans come to fruition much sooner. > or, as is more likely, when others stumble upon > the same truths that i have stumbled upon, and > such truths prove to be the generative force for > the "plans" of those people in the future, _then_ > _they_ will make _their_ plans come to fruition... "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most times he will pick himself up and carry on." Winston Churchill > and i'll be as much of a footnote in those plans > as ian feldman, if either of us is included at all... The novelist??? > you can't stop an idea whose time has come. "Greater than the tread of mighty armies . . .is an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo Give the world eBooks in 2006!!! Michael S. Hart Founder Project Gutenberg From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Feb 3 02:42:32 2006 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri Feb 3 02:42:38 2006 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] blah blah blog Message-ID: <24a.64118b3.31148d98@aol.com> michael said: > However, my response is NOT in jest, > we will be only to happy to help, > as with all such suggested projects. let me focus on this constructive point, and get to the rest of your reply later... last i heard, your whitewashers want to move files to the new directory structure when they do any corrections to 'em, thus can't update tons of files in one fell swoop. if that has changed, do please let me know. besides, if there's no commitment to make new files consistent, there isn't that much point to making the older ones consistent. (you stop a spill before cleaning the mess.) but if that has changed too, please tell me. i believe you are open to change, michael. i don't believe that your whitewashers are. but again, if i'm wrong, just let me know... i first made these points when you were celebrating the 10,000 e-texts plateau. you will be at 20,000 before you know it, with the mess twice as big as it was then. i expect in 3 years it'll be twice as big again. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060203/e7f228e3/attachment.html From walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl Fri Feb 3 04:14:58 2006 From: walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl (Walter van Holst) Date: Fri Feb 3 04:15:02 2006 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] blah blah blog In-Reply-To: <1ef.4b0de1cb.3111eb38@aol.com> References: <1ef.4b0de1cb.3111eb38@aol.com> Message-ID: <43E34942.4020207@xs4all.nl> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > ian said: > > We'll just have to take your word > > for how good these "routines" are then. > > well, until i release the app, yep. > > or you can not believe it, > don't matter much to me. > Having seen this discussion here at least once before, I think this takes the cake. Show us the application (preferrably under an open/free source license) or prepare to be ignored. There is a nice designation for applications like yours: vapourware. Regards, Walter From hart at pglaf.org Fri Feb 3 11:24:57 2006 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Fri Feb 3 11:24:59 2006 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] blah blah blog In-Reply-To: <24a.64118b3.31148d98@aol.com> References: <24a.64118b3.31148d98@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > michael said: >> However, my response is NOT in jest, >> we will be only to happy to help, >> as with all such suggested projects. > > let me focus on this constructive point, > and get to the rest of your reply later... > > last i heard, your whitewashers want to > move files to the new directory structure > when they do any corrections to 'em, thus > can't update tons of files in one fell swoop. > if that has changed, do please let me know. > > besides, if there's no commitment to make > new files consistent, there isn't that much > point to making the older ones consistent. > (you stop a spill before cleaning the mess.) > but if that has changed too, please tell me. > > i believe you are open to change, michael. > i don't believe that your whitewashers are. > but again, if i'm wrong, just let me know... > > i first made these points when you were > celebrating the 10,000 e-texts plateau. > you will be at 20,000 before you know it, > with the mess twice as big as it was then. > i expect in 3 years it'll be twice as big again. > > -bowerbird > First things first. . .before changing ALL files, let's try changing SOME files, eh? That's the way to get yourself some volunteers. Or, barring that, you are welcome to download ALL files you can get your hands on, by hook or crook, and work on them to your heart's content or form, and republish them here, or elsewhere. As always, you are welcome to address all of the Whitewashers individually or as a collection, to make whatever point[s] you wish. The one thing about volunteers, you have to SELL them on your ideas. Michael PS BTW, if you have been reading the Newsletter, you will see that we have started a PrePrints Site, which may eventually contain unpublished works that you can use to have your suggestions online before the final publication. From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Feb 3 13:28:30 2006 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri Feb 3 13:28:38 2006 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] blah blah blog Message-ID: <83.3682e0a0.311524fe@aol.com> walter said: > vapourware call it whatever you want, walter. i call it "banana-cream"... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060203/59ba98b0/attachment.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Feb 3 14:01:02 2006 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri Feb 3 14:01:13 2006 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] blah blah blog Message-ID: <1ef.4b37310e.31152c9e@aol.com> michael said: > First things first. . .before changing ALL files, > let's try changing SOME files, eh? before changing _some_ files, let's try _one_, eh? my z.m.l. version of alice in wonderland has been up for a while now. consider it submitted to p.g. failing that, you could do the minimum necessary, which is to eliminate of one extra carriage return. that's what some of these changes boil down to, a carriage-return added here, or deleted there, brackets put around a footnote, things like that. and i could generate a list of tens of thousands of such changes, involving thousands of e-texts and therefore, probably twice that many files... your whitewashers will tell you their workflows cannot handle a spectrum of changes that vast. at least that is my understanding of the situation, one that indicates that your grasp of it is tenuous. but i enjoy it when someone proves me wrong! :+) so, if i see you are willing to fix that _one_ file, then i can generate _some_ more, if you want... but your people still haven't gotten around to correcting the errors i noted on "a secret garden". (at least i hope they "haven't gotten around to it" yet, because if they did actually act on my report, their performance was dismaying, even abysmal.) and the errors i found on "swiss family robinson" are _still_ there. so it certainly seems to me that your error-correction machine ain't working well. > That's the way to get yourself some volunteers. michael, i don't know how many times i need to say this to you before you finally "get" it -- but i am not _looking_ for any volunteers. i simply don't need any; i'll be happy to do the job myself. (the task is largely automated by now, so the only need for a human is in the quality-control arena, and i'm quite happy to leave that up to end-users.) now, if _you_ want to find some volunteers who will help make _your_ library consistent, then i _might_ be willing to help you out in that regard, but your _first_ task would be to convince yourself that your whitewashers will actually support the drive. > Or, barring that, you are welcome to download ALL > files you can get your hands on, by hook or crook, by hook or crook? they're all available for downloading. > and work on them to your heart's content or form, > and republish them here, or elsewhere. i believe you need to check with your whitewashers before you offer to "republish them here". but yes, republishing elsewhere is precisely what i will do, once i get around to making them all consistent... > As always, you are welcome to address all of the > Whitewashers individually or as a collection, to > make whatever point[s] you wish. i'm "addressing" them by posting to this listserve... whether or not they choose to engage, who cares? as long as i go down on the record, i'm satisfied... > The one thing about volunteers, you have to > SELL them on your ideas. if i ever decide i need volunteers for something, i'll keep that in mind. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060203/56380e1b/attachment.html From joshua at hutchinson.net Fri Feb 3 14:19:44 2006 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Fri Feb 3 14:19:47 2006 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] blah blah blog Message-ID: <20060203221945.131D72FA3D@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bowerbird@aol.com > and i could generate a list of tens of thousands > of such changes, involving thousands of e-texts > and therefore, probably twice that many files... > That isn't how it works. You can't just generate a list of "fixes" and hand it off to someone else to do the hard work. YOU need to do the work if it is something you feel needs to be done. Take a file, fix all the problems, upload the fixes to PG and the file will get reposted. If you want to include your "list" with the upload, that's fine. It'll will allow some easier double-checking of your work. I doubt you'll ever come close to doing this, since it would be useful work and I've never seen you do any, but that's what the process is. Josh From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Feb 3 15:07:00 2006 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri Feb 3 15:07:13 2006 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] blah blah blog Message-ID: <28e.50b10a6.31153c14@aol.com> josh said: > You can't just generate a list of "fixes" and > hand it off to someone else to do the hard work. well first, it _is_ acceptable -- and _perfectly_ so -- for a person to submit a simple report of an error (or even a complex report of thousands of errors) without generating all the "corrected" files themself. indeed, i'd guess _most_ error-reports are just that. (and surely, for someone who might find one typo, you don't want to receive a full set of files from them, you just want 'em to tell you where the typo is located.) but even aside from that, josh, don't split hairs. i could hand the whitewashers "a list of fixes" _and_ updated files _and_ complete changelogs _and_ the program i used to complete the task, which they could continue to use in the future to check new files to ensure they're consistent. and those whitewashers _still_ couldn't process thousands of updated e-texts in one fell swoop, not under their present updating policy, which calls for them to run through all their checks to move an e-text to the new directory structure... which was my point. didn't you get it? meanwhile, i can generate the new files _myself_ -- without the hassle of an obtuse workflow -- and host a library that _does_ have consistency, with files up and available as soon as they're fixed. > YOU need to do the work > if it is something you feel needs to be done. i don't care if project gutenberg's e-texts have their inconsistencies removed or not. i _do_ want a library that's free of inconsistencies, but i anticipate i will have to remove them myself. and i have no issues with doing that, as i have said. this is completely different, however, from drawing your attention to the fact of these inconsistencies, and raising your awareness of troubles they cause. in other words, i am doing y'all a great big favor by pointing out a deficiency in your output that could be corrected with a minimum of effort on your part, but would _greatly_ increase the value of your output. the only problem is, y'all would rather take offense than take a simple look at a problem in your methods. but again, if i am wrong on this, and the whitewashers will implement wholesale changes to get consistency, and make a commitment to ensure future consistency, then i _certainly_ hope someone will say that directly... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060203/149da8c7/attachment.html From hart at pglaf.org Fri Feb 3 18:52:27 2006 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Fri Feb 3 18:52:28 2006 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] blah blah blog In-Reply-To: <20060203221945.131D72FA3D@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20060203221945.131D72FA3D@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Joshua Hutchinson wrote: > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bowerbird@aol.com > >> and i could generate a list of tens of thousands >> of such changes, involving thousands of e-texts >> and therefore, probably twice that many files... >> > > That isn't how it works. > > You can't just generate a list of "fixes" and hand it off to someone else to do the hard work. YOU need to do the work if it is something you feel needs to be done. > > Take a file, fix all the problems, upload the fixes to PG and the file will get reposted. If you want to include your "list" with the upload, that's fine. It'll will allow some easier double-checking of your work. > > I doubt you'll ever come close to doing this, since it would be useful work and I've never seen you do any, but that's what the process is. > > Josh At least until you do enough to get some volunteers interested in helping. However, if you want to send lists for a dozen, I'll see what I can do. mh From hart at pglaf.org Fri Feb 3 19:32:53 2006 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Fri Feb 3 19:32:55 2006 Subject: !@!Re: [gutvol-d] blah blah blog In-Reply-To: <1ef.4b37310e.31152c9e@aol.com> References: <1ef.4b37310e.31152c9e@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > michael said: >> First things first. . .before changing ALL files, >> let's try changing SOME files, eh? > > before changing _some_ files, let's try _one_, eh? > > my z.m.l. version of alice in wonderland has been > up for a while now. consider it submitted to p.g. Ask for a dozen to try out, get one, from a while back. You are not going to get a lot of volunteers that way. > failing that, you could do the minimum necessary, > which is to eliminate of one extra carriage return. This would have been done long ago if you had merely send in an error message to Newby or myself, or even most likely to Jim Tinsley. Are you TRYING to "poison the well" from which you claim you want to drink? > that's what some of these changes boil down to, > a carriage-return added here, or deleted there, > brackets put around a footnote, things like that. You've made that obvious previously. Why not actually try DOING something about these? > and i could generate a list of tens of thousands > of such changes, involving thousands of e-texts > and therefore, probably twice that many files... Ah, so it's either overkill or underkill. . . . "Reductio ad absurdum" as currently practiced. > your whitewashers will tell you their workflows > cannot handle a spectrum of changes that vast. Refuted: as above. > at least that is my understanding of the situation, > one that indicates that your grasp of it is tenuous. One would have to actually grasp something to know if it were tenuous or not. > but i enjoy it when someone proves me wrong! :+) Smile! > so, if i see you are willing to fix that _one_ file, > then i can generate _some_ more, if you want... You have continued to keep that error message to yourself, so it doesn't really matter if anyone is WILLING to help you. > but your people still haven't gotten around to > correcting the errors i noted on "a secret garden". Somehow I didn't seem to have received a copy of that error message when you sent it. Would you mind resending it? Please cc: me on all error messages, but try to limit it to only a dozen once in a while to start with, eh? > (at least i hope they "haven't gotten around to it" > yet, because if they did actually act on my report, > their performance was dismaying, even abysmal.) This kind of talk is beneath even you, certainly beneath the people you are pretending to address. > and the errors i found on "swiss family robinson" > are _still_ there. so it certainly seems to me that > your error-correction machine ain't working well. I do recall some corrections made there, but I don't recall if you had anything to do with them. If you aren't sending me messages, there isn't much I can do to help you. [biting tongue to withhold comment] >> That's the way to get yourself some volunteers. > michael, i don't know how many times i need to say > this to you before you finally "get" it -- but i am > not _looking_ for any volunteers. i simply > don't need any; i'll be happy to do the job myself. It is all too obviously one of those contradictions. > (the task is largely automated by now, so the only > need for a human is in the quality-control arena, > and i'm quite happy to leave that up to end-users.) That's what we have always said and done, but YOU don't seem to be satisfied with that. > now, if _you_ want to find some volunteers who > will help make _your_ library consistent, then i > _might_ be willing to help you out in that regard, > but your _first_ task would be to convince yourself > that your whitewashers will actually support the drive. Don't pin this on the Whitewashers, pin it on your own chest. If you have something positive to say, please just say it, and then let the volunteers go where they may. >> Or, barring that, you are welcome to download ALL >> files you can get your hands on, by hook or crook, > > by hook or crook? they're all available for downloading. I guess you don't know as much as you think, eh? You were the one who said you wanted the books done right the first time just recently, weren't you? >> and work on them to your heart's content or form, >> and republish them here, or elsewhere. > > i believe you need to check with your whitewashers > before you offer to "republish them here". but yes, > republishing elsewhere is precisely what i will do, > once i get around to making them all consistent... When something is in the public domain, or we have permission for copyrighted works, you don't need to check with anyone, as long as you stay within the minimal guidelines, as you well know. Stop pretending, start DOING. >> As always, you are welcome to address all of the >> Whitewashers individually or as a collection, to >> make whatever point[s] you wish. > > i'm "addressing" them by posting to this listserve... Actually, there is, or at least was, a Whitewashers listserver, but I don't know if anyone but myself still keeps it as a potential address. > whether or not they choose to engage, who cares? > as long as i go down on the record, i'm satisfied... "What satisfaction cans't thou have. . . .?" It's ain't over until it's over." >> The one thing about volunteers, you have to >> SELL them on your ideas. > > if i ever decide i need volunteers for something, > i'll keep that in mind. You put forth many such needs, then always deny it. It it any wonder you end up in this kind of conversation? > -bowerbird > From gbuchana at rogers.com Sat Feb 4 09:07:03 2006 From: gbuchana at rogers.com (Gardner Buchanan) Date: Sat Feb 4 09:13:47 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Related project of interest: Librivox Message-ID: <43E4DF37.5080903@rogers.com> I happened to hear Hugh McGuire interviewed on CBC Radio One yesterday. He was talking about an interesting project that I hadn't previously known. I though I'd mention it here in case anyone else is interested: http://www.librivox.org/ LibriVox volunteers record chapters of books in the public domain, and then we release the audio files back onto the net (podcast and catalog). Our objective is to make all books in the public domain available, for free, in audio format on the internet. We are a totally volunteer, open source, free content, public domain project. ============================================================ Gardner Buchanan Ottawa, ON FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today. From Bowerbird at aol.com Sat Feb 4 12:14:02 2006 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sat Feb 4 12:14:08 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] pure-tone range Message-ID: <254.5d45453.3116650a@aol.com> michael- our signal-to-noise ratio has deteriorated, so let's elevate this back to pure-tone range, ok? tell me exactly what you would like from me -- in the form of reports, examples, or whatever -- and specify how many of them you'd like, and i'll do my best to provide, or tell you why i can't oblige... :+) -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060204/d6e5c610/attachment.html From marcello at perathoner.de Sat Feb 4 13:01:43 2006 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Sat Feb 4 13:01:48 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] We have a picture of Mohammed in hell Message-ID: <43E51637.1030907@perathoner.de> ... in the Divine Comedy by Dante, Illustrated by Gustave Dor? in Canto XXVIII: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/8789 -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sat Feb 4 13:42:52 2006 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sat Feb 4 13:42:54 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Related project of interest: Librivox In-Reply-To: <43E4DF37.5080903@rogers.com> References: <43E4DF37.5080903@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20060204214252.GB29896@pglaf.org> On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 12:07:03PM -0500, Gardner Buchanan wrote: > I happened to hear Hugh McGuire interviewed on CBC Radio One yesterday. > He was talking about an interesting project that I hadn't previously > known. I though I'd mention it here in case anyone else is interested: > > http://www.librivox.org/ > > LibriVox volunteers record chapters of books in the public domain, and > then we release the audio files back onto the net (podcast and catalog). > Our objective is to make all books in the public domain available, for > free, in audio format on the internet. We are a totally volunteer, open > source, free content, public domain project. It's a good project, and we've been working with Hugh (in fact, they're already linked from our "links and affiliates" page). We're working to redistribute some of their content, too. Yes, they're like-minded with PG! -- Greg From brandon.galbraith at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 14:07:15 2006 From: brandon.galbraith at gmail.com (Brandon Galbraith) Date: Sun Feb 5 08:04:07 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Related project of interest: Librivox In-Reply-To: <20060204214252.GB29896@pglaf.org> References: <43E4DF37.5080903@rogers.com> <20060204214252.GB29896@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <366100670602041407w556f2f4kc71ba1205fa9f9d0@mail.gmail.com> They seem to be popular too. I bookmarked them on del.ici.ous and 317 other people have bookmarked them as well. Would seem to be an excellent PG partner. -brandon On 2/4/06, Greg Newby wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 12:07:03PM -0500, Gardner Buchanan wrote: > > I happened to hear Hugh McGuire interviewed on CBC Radio One yesterday. > > He was talking about an interesting project that I hadn't previously > > known. I though I'd mention it here in case anyone else is interested: > > > > http://www.librivox.org/ > > > > LibriVox volunteers record chapters of books in the public domain, and > > then we release the audio files back onto the net (podcast and catalog). > > Our objective is to make all books in the public domain available, for > > free, in audio format on the internet. We are a totally volunteer, open > > source, free content, public domain project. > > It's a good project, and we've been working with Hugh > (in fact, they're already linked from our "links and > affiliates" page). We're working to redistribute some of > their content, too. > > Yes, they're like-minded with PG! > -- Greg > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > > -- Brandon Galbraith Email: brandon.galbraith@gmail.com AIM: brandong00 Voice: 630.400.6992 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060204/1ca69983/attachment.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Sun Feb 5 12:01:43 2006 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 5 12:01:49 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] !@! -- more pure-tone signal Message-ID: <1c5.3978d08f.3117b3a7@aol.com> michael- you might've missed my request from yesterday morning for you to specify what you would like to receive from me -- error reports, sample e-texts, source-code, whatever -- so i'm repeating it again now... i've got an abundance of material of all types, so feel free! -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060205/78ebf07e/attachment.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu Feb 9 13:19:27 2006 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Thu Feb 9 13:19:38 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] here's a pure-signal demo Message-ID: <2a4.53ace07.311d0bdf@aol.com> jose menendez has created a "digital reprint" of the "my antonia" scan-set as a .pdf: > http://www.ibiblio.org/ebooks/Cather/ aside from the facts that he created it using ms-word and delivered it as a pdf, this demo is remarkable in that it _replicates_ the scans but does so with _digital_text_ (which can be copied and searched), and only uses 2 megs instead of the 30+ required by the scanset. in addition, the text is completely clean, with none of the faded or incomplete characters that are all-too-common with the scans... you'll note that -- in order to replicate scans -- it's necessary to retain the original linebreaks, so i once again request that p.g./d.p. do that. it's just a shame to throw meaningful info away. also note that the .pdf file uses _soft_hypens_ in those words that were end-line hyphenated; these soft-hyphens can be eliminated to rejoin the words so that searches are done correctly and so that the text can be reflowed if desired. this demo can be improved by removing the proprietary ms-word from the process, but nonetheless this .pdf indicates a crucial step in the process of "round-tripping", namely to be able to replicate the look of a scan-set. "round-tripping" wasn't jose's objective, but his example is instructive anyway... this fluency of text to morph effortlessly between the frozen state of 20th-century paper-book and the fluidity of the 21st-century electronic-book is exactly what we should strive for in our efforts... i'll be posting more on the topic of "round-tripping" as i do further work expanding on jose's demo, but i wanted to give you a heads-up on it right away... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060209/2313d1e1/attachment.html From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Feb 10 13:18:52 2006 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri Feb 10 13:19:05 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] congratulations Message-ID: <1ac.47e330ff.311e5d3c@aol.com> congratulations to d.p. on hitting the 8,000-book mark! thanks for all the hard work, volunteers! it's appreciated! -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060210/e907843a/attachment.html From vze3rknp at verizon.net Fri Feb 10 13:27:46 2006 From: vze3rknp at verizon.net (Juliet Sutherland) Date: Fri Feb 10 13:27:51 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] congratulations In-Reply-To: <1ac.47e330ff.311e5d3c@aol.com> References: <1ac.47e330ff.311e5d3c@aol.com> Message-ID: <43ED0552.9080008@verizon.net> Thank you, Bowerbird! The DP volunteers are a wonderful example of how many hands can make work easier. From the folks who spend fulltime working on DP to the people who proof their page a day, everyone contributes to making something that is greater than we could do individually. JulietS Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > congratulations to d.p. on hitting the 8,000-book mark! > thanks for all the hard work, volunteers! it's appreciated! > > -bowerbird From marcdh at pandora.be Fri Feb 10 13:42:35 2006 From: marcdh at pandora.be (Marc D'Hooghe) Date: Fri Feb 10 13:49:55 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] congratulations Message-ID: Hear hear, Juliet! >----- Oorspronkelijk bericht ----- >Van: Juliet Sutherland [mailto:vze3rknp@verizon.net] >Verzonden: vrijdag, februari 10, 2006 10:27 PM >Aan: 'Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion' >Onderwerp: Re: [gutvol-d] congratulations > >Thank you, Bowerbird! > >The DP volunteers are a wonderful example of how many hands can make >work easier. From the folks who spend fulltime working on DP to the >people who proof their page a day, everyone contributes to making >something that is greater than we could do individually. > >JulietS > >Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > >> congratulations to d.p. on hitting the 8,000-book mark! >> thanks for all the hard work, volunteers! it's appreciated! >> >> -bowerbird > > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > > From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Feb 10 15:49:16 2006 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri Feb 10 15:49:23 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] congratulations Message-ID: <1db.4c6346b6.311e807c@aol.com> triple-thanks to the people (and there are several at d.p.) who work as hard as juliet! -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060210/7c73cfea/attachment.html From sly at victoria.tc.ca Mon Feb 13 00:55:39 2006 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Mon Feb 13 00:55:43 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Request French proof-reader In-Reply-To: <20060122182833.GA25329@panix.com> References: <20060119011933.GA16170@panix.com> <0alus1ppjor5sk9vd7n843fer4r1411v9m@4ax.com> <200601191021.k0JALjx02910@pico.dm.unipi.it> <20060122182833.GA25329@panix.com> Message-ID: Would anyone like to do a little good old-fashioned proof-reading in French? (Or perhaps what would be called "smooth reading" by DPer's) I have the text of two short novels by Laure Conan already prepared. But then, I found an edition which contains these as well as three short stories. I've gone ahead and typed out the first two of thes stories and run them through a spell check. (The third is in progress) I would greatly appreciate a read-through from someone who knows the language. They can be found at: http://www.victoria.tc.ca/~sly/conan4.txt Thanks, Andrew From prosfilaes at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 15:17:26 2006 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Mon Feb 13 15:17:29 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Beacon Lights of History on the top of the top 100 list Message-ID: <6d99d1fd0602131517n4cdc9740t110b4e63762df90c@mail.gmail.com> The Beacon Lights of History, Volume 11 by John Lord, rocketed to the top of the top 100 books yesterday, with 20,918 hits, which is totally out of range. (The #2 book got 400 hits, and the #2 book for the last 30 days got 10,000 hits.) Anyone know why this happened? From marcello at perathoner.de Mon Feb 13 22:57:36 2006 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Mon Feb 13 22:57:44 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Beacon Lights of History on the top of the top 100 list In-Reply-To: <6d99d1fd0602131517n4cdc9740t110b4e63762df90c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6d99d1fd0602131517n4cdc9740t110b4e63762df90c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43F17F60.50503@perathoner.de> David Starner wrote: > The Beacon Lights of History, Volume 11 by John Lord, rocketed to the > top of the top 100 books yesterday, with 20,918 hits, which is totally > out of range. (The #2 book got 400 hits, and the #2 book for the last > 30 days got 10,000 hits.) Anyone know why this happened? An image from the book was included on fark. http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=1908164 This somehow slipped by the watchdog program ... -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From marcello at perathoner.de Tue Feb 14 14:55:13 2006 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue Feb 14 14:55:17 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Beacon Lights of History on the top of the top 100 list In-Reply-To: <43F17F60.50503@perathoner.de> References: <6d99d1fd0602131517n4cdc9740t110b4e63762df90c@mail.gmail.com> <43F17F60.50503@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <43F25FD1.7000701@perathoner.de> Marcello Perathoner wrote: > David Starner wrote: > >> The Beacon Lights of History, Volume 11 by John Lord, rocketed to the >> top of the top 100 books yesterday, with 20,918 hits, which is totally >> out of range. (The #2 book got 400 hits, and the #2 book for the last >> 30 days got 10,000 hits.) Anyone know why this happened? > > > An image from the book was included on fark. > > http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=1908164 > > This somehow slipped by the watchdog program ... Should work now ... until the next bug. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From koxinga at laposte.net Sat Feb 18 03:25:39 2006 From: koxinga at laposte.net (koxinga) Date: Sat Feb 18 03:25:40 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Request French proof-reader In-Reply-To: References: <20060119011933.GA16170@panix.com> <0alus1ppjor5sk9vd7n843fer4r1411v9m@4ax.com> <200601191021.k0JALjx02910@pico.dm.unipi.it> <20060122182833.GA25329@panix.com> Message-ID: <43F70433.4040603@laposte.net> Andrew Sly a ?crit : >Would anyone like to do a little good old-fashioned >proof-reading in French? (Or perhaps what would be called >"smooth reading" by DPer's) > >I have the text of two short novels by Laure Conan already >prepared. But then, I found an edition which contains >these as well as three short stories. I've gone ahead and >typed out the first two of thes stories and run them through >a spell check. (The third is in progress) I would greatly >appreciate a read-through from someone who knows the >language. > >They can be found at: >http://www.victoria.tc.ca/~sly/conan4.txt > >Thanks, >Andrew > > I am a french speaker and I could perhaps do it if the texts are not too long, but the link seems broken. koxinga From nwolcott2 at post.harvard.edu Sat Feb 18 03:38:22 2006 From: nwolcott2 at post.harvard.edu (NWolcott) Date: Sat Feb 18 04:10:12 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Copyright searches, speeding Message-ID: <035c01c63481$4f4cda20$c79495ce@gw98> In processing a request for copyright clearance for non-renewed copyrights, the PG rules require searching manually the renewal records for the 3 years surrounding the date of expiration for the author, title, publisher, etc. This can be a time consuming process if it is eventually found to have been renewed. I have found the following Rutgers site a quick way of determining if a book has been renewed, thus sparing much effort: http://www.scils.rutgers.edu/~lesk/copyrenew.html A quick search on names titles etc will stop you from wasting a lot of time. I don't think it covers magazines. For example a quick search on Frank Harris revealed that all of his major works have been renewed. Likewise Albert Payson Terhune But Margaret Armstrong "Trelawney" showed no renewal, so a manual search is now being done to clear this for PG. nwolcott2@post.harvard.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060218/3f9847ad/attachment.html From gbnewby at pglaf.org Mon Feb 20 00:30:12 2006 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Mon Feb 20 00:30:13 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Copyright searches, speeding In-Reply-To: <035c01c63481$4f4cda20$c79495ce@gw98> References: <035c01c63481$4f4cda20$c79495ce@gw98> Message-ID: <20060220083012.GI29089@pglaf.org> On Sat, Feb 18, 2006 at 06:38:22AM -0500, NWolcott wrote: > In processing a request for copyright clearance for non-renewed copyrights, the PG rules require searching manually the renewal records for the 3 years surrounding the date of expiration for the author, title, publisher, etc. This can be a time consuming process if it is eventually found to have been renewed. > > I have found the following Rutgers site a quick way of determining if a book has been renewed, thus sparing much effort: > > http://www.scils.rutgers.edu/~lesk/copyrenew.html This uses approximately the same data as our eBook #11800. Yes, it's useful, and valid for the time dates & content types it covers for our "Rule 6" clearances. -- Greg > A quick search on names titles etc will stop you from wasting a lot of time. I don't think it covers magazines. > > For example a quick search on Frank Harris revealed that all of his major works have been renewed. > > Likewise Albert Payson Terhune > > But Margaret Armstrong "Trelawney" showed no renewal, so a manual search is now being done to clear this for PG. > > nwolcott2@post.harvard.edu > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From nwolcott2 at post.harvard.edu Mon Feb 20 11:03:23 2006 From: nwolcott2 at post.harvard.edu (NWolcott) Date: Mon Feb 20 11:05:04 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: question re copyright References: <1ad.47a47d19.312b50e1@aol.com> Message-ID: <003801c63650$66ce0860$6e9495ce@gw98> It means that someone has filed a renewal application. Whether it is a valid renewal depends on a number of things, includindg the right of the "renewer" to claim copyright. For example a copyright cannot be filed in the name of a deceased person. The estate of such person could claim copyright, however, assuming they were the legal representatives etc. If a book has not been renewed the illustrator could claim copyright for his illustrations etc. They might even have precedence over the author's estate. The legal niceties are enormous. nwolcott2@post.harvard.edu ----- Original Message ----- From: Gutenberg9443@aol.com To: nwolcott2@post.harvard.edu Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 12:05 PM Subject: question re copyright I've never done a copyright search, so want to be sure I am right. I take it that ODAT means original registration, RREG means reregistration, and the book is under copyright. Is that correct? ODAT: 24SSep26 OREG: A950565 DREG: 24Sep53 RREG: R118070 RCLM: Howard Pease Anne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060220/c941ef20/attachment.html From greg at durendal.org Wed Feb 22 05:38:17 2006 From: greg at durendal.org (Greg Weeks) Date: Wed Feb 22 06:00:08 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] web site link not working Message-ID: I looked for a email address on the web site to send this to and didn't find one. The link http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17355/17355-h/17355-h.htm from http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/17355 doesn't work. -- Greg Weeks http://durendal.org:8080/greg/ From joshua at hutchinson.net Wed Feb 22 06:27:06 2006 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Wed Feb 22 06:27:11 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] web site link not working Message-ID: <20060222142706.5344E2F9C9@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Working here for me. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Greg Weeks" > To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" > Subject: [gutvol-d] web site link not working > Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 08:38:17 -0500 (EST) > > > > I looked for a email address on the web site to send this to and didn't find > one. > > The link http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17355/17355-h/17355-h.htm from > http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/17355 doesn't work. > > -- Greg Weeks > http://durendal.org:8080/greg/ > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From greg at durendal.org Wed Feb 22 07:30:25 2006 From: greg at durendal.org (Greg Weeks) Date: Wed Feb 22 07:30:28 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] web site link not working In-Reply-To: <20060222142706.5344E2F9C9@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20060222142706.5344E2F9C9@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Joshua Hutchinson wrote: > Working here for me. I get: Files Lookup I see no such file here! (files) -- Greg Weeks http://durendal.org:8080/greg/ From marcello at perathoner.de Wed Feb 22 09:47:22 2006 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed Feb 22 09:47:27 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] web site link not working In-Reply-To: References: <20060222142706.5344E2F9C9@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <43FCA3AA.6030007@perathoner.de> Greg Weeks wrote: > Files Lookup > > I see no such file here! (files) See that your browser sends the correct http referrer (or an empty referrer if you are concerned about your privacy). If you send a bogus referrer you'll confuse the server. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From greg at durendal.org Wed Feb 22 10:11:20 2006 From: greg at durendal.org (Greg Weeks) Date: Wed Feb 22 10:11:22 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] web site link not working In-Reply-To: <43FCA3AA.6030007@perathoner.de> References: <20060222142706.5344E2F9C9@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> <43FCA3AA.6030007@perathoner.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Greg Weeks wrote: > >> Files Lookup >> >> I see no such file here! (files) > > See that your browser sends the correct http referrer (or an empty referrer > if you are concerned about your privacy). > > If you send a bogus referrer you'll confuse the server. This is with firefox and I've not done anything to change the referer. -- Greg Weeks http://durendal.org:8080/greg/ From marcello at perathoner.de Wed Feb 22 10:56:01 2006 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed Feb 22 10:56:05 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] web site link not working In-Reply-To: References: <20060222142706.5344E2F9C9@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> <43FCA3AA.6030007@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <43FCB3C1.9000807@perathoner.de> Greg Weeks wrote: > On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > >> Greg Weeks wrote: >> >>> Files Lookup >>> >>> I see no such file here! (files) >> >> >> See that your browser sends the correct http referrer (or an empty >> referrer if you are concerned about your privacy). >> >> If you send a bogus referrer you'll confuse the server. > > > This is with firefox and I've not done anything to change the referer. > Go to: http://www.gutenberg.org/browsertest and see what kind of referrer you are sending. Maybe you have a proxy or other software installed that changes the referrer. Or maybe something on the way to you cached a stale page. Try hitting the reload button. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From greg at durendal.org Wed Feb 22 11:28:13 2006 From: greg at durendal.org (Greg Weeks) Date: Wed Feb 22 11:28:15 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] web site link not working In-Reply-To: <43FCB3C1.9000807@perathoner.de> References: <20060222142706.5344E2F9C9@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> <43FCA3AA.6030007@perathoner.de> <43FCB3C1.9000807@perathoner.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > http://www.gutenberg.org/browsertest Browser Test Page Local time Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:27:10 -0500 IP Address 65.117.135.105 Browser Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050920 Firefox/1.0.7 Referrer Server Protocol HTTP/1.1 Accept Headers Accept text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5 Accept Charset ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7 Accept Encoding gzip,deflate Accept Language en-us,en;q=0.5 -- Greg Weeks http://durendal.org:8080/greg/ From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Feb 24 14:14:51 2006 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Fri Feb 24 14:15:00 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] clearing the decks Message-ID: <1dc.4ef946b5.3130df5b@aol.com> ok, let's see if i can clear the decks here, so i can get to some serious work next week... *** a while back, michael intimated that i was talking out of my ass when i speak of errors in the p.g. library, and that i should have sent _him_ the reports, so here is supporting data... *** first is a piece i wrote on errors in the p.g. copy of "swiss family robinson", _still_ all uncorrected... > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/2005cleanup/on_swiss_family_robinson (this error-report was posted two full months ago.) *** second is a new review of the "fixes" in "the secret garden": > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/2005cleanup/the_secret_garden_fix_analysis this was a "re-do" of a book that was already in the p.g. library, so i was able to test my ideas on comparing dual digitizations... i have previously written on this project, in a gutvol-d message that was sent december 27th, shortly after the e-text was posted. in that message, i praised the accuracy, and noted 10 errors... this new post examines subsequent treatment of those errors. error-reports like this tend to get _very_ specific, so i've also posted the page-images online to help outsiders negotiate: > http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/bowerbird/2005cleanup/page000.jpg replace "000" in that u.r.l. with the page-number (zero-filled to 3 digits) to see the image-scan of each page as it's discussed in the error-report... in a nutshell, though, i reported 10 errors, and just 2 were fixed! this in response to a carefully-prepared error-report that gave you the page-number, the incorrect text, and the necessary correction, written only after i had taken a _very_ close look at each page-scan... how many error-reports will you get that are so well-documented? yet a mere 2 out of the 10 reported errors were actually fixed! wow! is that a performance that you all believe that you can feel proud of? *** third, i talked about how "alice in wonderland" was _very_close_ to z.m.l. compliance, but _not_there_... sorry, my memory was just a little wrong, there are _3_ excessive linebreaks in alice30.txt (not just one, as i had reported), one before each of these lines: > CHAPTER I > CHAPTER II > `Thank you, it's a very interesting dance to watch,' said of course, a linebreak that is "excessive" by z.m.l. standards is probably not something the _whitewashers_ will consider as an "error" that they need to "fix", but michael said that he wanted to know about such things, so i have told him... *** my messages were written in the course of ongoing threads, the first over on the bookpeople listserve, the second two right here. so all of these reports hit michael's e-mailbox. if you have any questions, do please feel free to ask them. otherwise, i will just sit back and wait for y'all to make these corrections... no need for a flame-war, though. i am convinced that you'll never build a better error-correction system, so somebody else (like me) will have to build one instead, and i'm prepared to do that... so save your energy... *** you will hear more from me starting on monday. which is appropriate, since tinsley likes to call me a "monday morning quarterback". heck, over on the d.p. forums, he's got it down to its acronym... get used to it, jim, you'll be hearing a lot from me, with _extensive_ demos, starting real soon now... -bowerbird p.s. if jim's thinly-veiled insults persist over at d.p., i'll have to start posting in those forums in response; is that _really_ what you guys want? think about it... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060224/3f209fc9/attachment.html From joshua at hutchinson.net Fri Feb 24 14:49:33 2006 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (Joshua Hutchinson) Date: Fri Feb 24 14:49:39 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] clearing the decks Message-ID: <20060224224933.A69A01099A4@ws6-4.us4.outblaze.com> (I'm bored, so I'm responding to the troll today. This is a one off ... it'll be out of my system after this) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bowerbird@aol.com > > yet a mere 2 out of the 10 reported errors were actually fixed! wow! > is that a performance that you all believe that you can feel proud of? > Did you actually send that to the errata e-mail address on PG? Or just post it here where everyone has learned to tune you out? unless you send it to the errata email, no one is going to act upon it. The 2 that were fixed were very likely fixed because someone else DID forward them to the correct place. If you yell out of your front door, it is unlikely that Congress will hear and pass a new law. If you point out errors in books to people OTHER than the ones who fix it, it is unlikely that the right people will hear about it and fix the issues. > p.s. if jim's thinly-veiled insults persist over at d.p., > i'll have to start posting in those forums in response; > is that _really_ what you guys want? think about it... > Who's veiling the insults? We insult you quite openly when you deserve it. The problem is you're like a demon. Saying your name invokes the evil to appear. Josh From sly at victoria.tc.ca Fri Feb 24 22:08:26 2006 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Fri Feb 24 22:08:28 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Random mention of Project Gutenberg Message-ID: Here is an interesting mention of Project Gutenberg that I found in the group alt.books.david-weber The context is a discussion of the character Ludmilla, travelling back in time from a technologically advanced future. "Also given molecular density storage its quite possible that Ludmilla's suit and/or the escape capsule has an awful lot of eBooks onboard. The twenty fifth century version of Project Gutenberg would fit on something microscopically small, and would probably contain designs for early versions of the phase drive and related tech, or at the very least books relating to their development." Andrew From JBuck814366460 at aol.com Sat Feb 25 09:03:47 2006 From: JBuck814366460 at aol.com (Jared Buck) Date: Sat Feb 25 09:03:54 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Random mention of Project Gutenberg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44008DF3.90206@aol.com> BoingBoing.net also mentioned PG briefly, I even added a comment about that mention that is on the site. Link is here - http://www.boingboing.net/2006/02/23/lovingly_scanned_and.html Cool, eh? Jared Andrew Sly wrote on 24/02/2006, 10:08 PM: > Here is an interesting mention of Project Gutenberg that I found > in the group alt.books.david-weber > > The context is a discussion of the character Ludmilla, travelling > back in time from a technologically advanced future. > > "Also given molecular density storage its quite possible that Ludmilla's > suit and/or the escape capsule has an awful lot of eBooks onboard. The > twenty fifth century version of Project Gutenberg would fit on something > microscopically small, and would probably contain designs for early > versions of the phase drive and related tech, or at the very least books > relating to their development." > > > > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > -- . .:. .:::. .:::::. ***.:::::::.*** *******.:::::::::.******* Dmitri Yalovsky ********.:::::::::::.******** ********.:::::::::::::.******** USS Authority *******.::::::'***`::::.******* ******.::::'*********`::.****** Asst. Chief of Engineering ****.:::'*************`:.**** *.::'*****************`.* .:' *************** . . From aotg20 at dsl.pipex.com Sun Feb 26 09:57:50 2006 From: aotg20 at dsl.pipex.com (Richard Poynder) Date: Sun Feb 26 10:29:09 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Photo of Michael Hart In-Reply-To: <20060110002256.GA27181@pglaf.org> References: <1675677963.20060109133820@noring.name> <20060109233815.GB21426@pglaf.org> <80308709.20060109164835@noring.name> <20060110002256.GA27181@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060226175302.00adc9e0@dsl.pipex.com> Dear All, I shall shortly be publishing an interview I did with Michael Hart, and am very keen to include a recent color photo of him. Does anyone happen to have such a photo that they could send to me by e-mail? If so, I would be most grateful. Best wishes, Richard Poynder Richard Poynder Freelance Journalist www.richardpoynder.com http://poynder.blogspot.com From hart at pglaf.org Sun Feb 26 10:53:50 2006 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Sun Feb 26 10:53:53 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Photo of Michael Hart In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060226175302.00adc9e0@dsl.pipex.com> References: <1675677963.20060109133820@noring.name> <20060109233815.GB21426@pglaf.org> <80308709.20060109164835@noring.name> <20060110002256.GA27181@pglaf.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20060226175302.00adc9e0@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: Hopefully any of the three color pics here will fill the bill, or the right hand b/w. lynx http://pglaf.org/~hart/ "If what you did yesterday Still seems great today, Then your goals for tomorrow Are not big enough." Ling Yu Fu, circa 600 BC Break Down The Bars Of Ignorance And Illiteracy Michael S. Hart (hart@pobox.com) On Sun, 26 Feb 2006, Richard Poynder wrote: > Dear All, > > I shall shortly be publishing an interview I did with Michael Hart, and am > very keen to include a recent color photo of him. > > Does anyone happen to have such a photo that they could send to me by e-mail? > If so, I would be most grateful. > > Best wishes, > > > Richard Poynder > > > Richard Poynder > Freelance Journalist > www.richardpoynder.com > http://poynder.blogspot.com > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d@lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Feb 27 11:11:34 2006 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon Feb 27 11:11:45 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] monday morning quarterback -- a new weekly series Message-ID: <21d.8d47c35.3134a8e6@aol.com> later today, when i get comments back from reviewers, i will debut a new weekly series called "m.m.q.", or "monday morning quarterback"... m.m.q. is a series where i politely tell all of you good people working here at project gutenberg and distributed proofreaders how you _should_ be doing your jobs...???????? :+) i'll let you know when it's posted, and where. and that's not all the good news i have, either! i've also picked up a smidgen of perl, lately, and you know what they say about a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. yes, that's right, folks, bowerbird is now something of a script kiddie... imagine that! better lock down the web soon, or you don't know what damage i might cause... ;+) -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060227/fb864737/attachment.html From marcello at perathoner.de Mon Feb 27 11:40:38 2006 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Mon Feb 27 11:40:45 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] monday morning quarterback -- a new weekly series In-Reply-To: <21d.8d47c35.3134a8e6@aol.com> References: <21d.8d47c35.3134a8e6@aol.com> Message-ID: <440355B6.4010100@perathoner.de> Bowerbird@aol.com wrote: > later today i will debut > a new weekly series called "m.m.q.", > or "monday morning quarterback"... Don't you get enough blog satisfaction? "This Journal has been read 00000111 times since its creation on November 12, 2004" What makes you think "mmq" will be any more popular than your deservedly forgotten blog? > m.m.q. is a series where i politely tell you > how you _should_ be doing your jobs... :+) One who does is worth a hundred who know better. Fortunately PG has a hundred who do and just one who knows better. > bowerbird is now something of a script kiddie... We all like to watch you grow. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Feb 27 15:07:08 2006 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Mon Feb 27 15:07:19 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] while you're waiting Message-ID: <220.8bb422d.3134e01c@aol.com> while you're waiting for "monday morning quarterback"... this page will remind you what my idea of "continuous proofreading" would look like: > http://users.aol.com/bowerbird/proof_wiki.html basically, it's the traditional "proofing" interface, with the scan on one side, the text on the other. if someone spots an error, they can report it using the form right on the page, which adds the report instantly to the bottom of the page. that kind of transparency means that end-users don't "wonder" if an error was already reported, because they see each and every one reported... (the disposition of each report will be posted too, so people don't keep repeating the same report...) the reports are also collected on a separate page, sortable by report-date and page-in-the-book, so administrators get a quick-and-easy overview... of course, text has to be fairly clean before you can put it into "continuous proofreading" like this, but i anticipate i can take most o.c.r. to an accuracy of 1-error-per-10-pages, using my clean-up tools, an acceptable rate for continuous proofreading... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20060227/3f4d57a0/attachment.html From marcello at perathoner.de Tue Feb 28 14:34:11 2006 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue Feb 28 14:34:16 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Commercial paper editions of PG texts Message-ID: <4404CFE3.205@perathoner.de> Lately I've been using Google Book Search to check error reports against paper editions I don't have. It turns out that some of the more embarrassing errors in PG texts turn up in many commercial paper editions. See: http://books.google.com/books?q=%22but+stating+it+to+be+such+as+such+as+might%22 http://books.google.com/books?q=%22what+has+been+sometimes+been+found+before%22 All you need is a TeX installation and some imagination to write a real good copyright notice. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster@gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Feb 28 16:17:06 2006 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird@aol.com) Date: Tue Feb 28 16:17:16 2006 Subject: [gutvol-d] Commercial paper editions of PG texts Message-ID: <2de.3175a87.31364202@aol.com> is it news to anyone here that some people sell p.g. e-texts? i should hope not. those people don't irritate me. indeed, in the sense that they offer customers the option of a hard-copy printing of an e-text, i think they're providing a service. so in addition to recovering the costs of printing and binding and shipping and maintaining a business that deals with willing buyers, i think they deserve a little profit for providing that service... after all, they "own" that public-domain material just as much as you or i "own" it. i also don't even get mad if these people -- in protecting their business model -- restrict viewing the pages of their books within the google book-search system... no, i think the blame falls on _our_ shoulders, because as the people dedicated to providing full and free access to the public domain, we are failing in our mission by not ensuring that google has a no-pages-restricted entity in its book-search for each and every public-domain book that they have. and i firmly believe we should remedy that situation, soon... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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