From schultzk at uni-trier.de Thu Mar 1 01:01:35 2007 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Schultz Keith J.) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 10:01:35 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Jakob Nielsen On Life Long Computer Skills In-Reply-To: <45E5ECD3.8030200@perathoner.de> References: <45E5ECD3.8030200@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <48443A03-563A-4D2B-978E-A12BF8326AE0@uni-trier.de> Excuse me, WHAT is "Gutenberg complete" ? Another question is since when has it been the policy of PG to represent every text feature in printed books? regards Keith. Am 28.02.2007 um 21:57 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: > Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > >> because for every structure that _is_ in my test-suite, >> "plain text alone" can indicate it just fine, thank you... > > That's no surprise because you derived your test suite from plain text > samples alone. > > The question remains: > > Is your format "Gutenberg complete"? ie. can it represent > every text feature found in printed books? > > The answer is clarly: no. > > Your format cannot handle subtitles, which is particularly funny since > they are found in nearly every book and the DP formatting guidelines > exactly prescribe how to handle them. > > > -- > Marcello Perathoner > webmaster at gutenberg.org > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From schultzk at uni-trier.de Thu Mar 1 01:04:31 2007 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Schultz Keith J.) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 10:04:31 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] extermination of all other formats? In-Reply-To: <45E5F0AB.9010209@perathoner.de> References: <45E1B201.2030702@novomail.net> <61x2vLAn0g4FFwrm@thalasson.com> <156572968.20070225154637@noring.name> <45E33083.7030603@novomail.net> <45E33690.6010808@perathoner.de> <1185955344.20070226124940@noring.name> <45E34093.4010106@perathoner.de> <45E34B6B.6000602@novomail.net> <45E3595E.9080105@perathoner.de> <45E377FF.70706@novomail.net> <45E47ED9.7000403@perathoner.de> <45E49628.50204@novomail.net> <45E4B03C.7070109@perathoner.de> <1172615580.9560.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45E528F1.9020007@perathoner.de> <1172669024.9560.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45E5C76D.8090704@novomail.net> <45E5F0AB.9010209@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <97953B1B-F591-4A89-8F6B-86F90520F526@uni-trier.de> Talk about purposely misunderstand/misinterpreting!! Keith. Am 28.02.2007 um 22:14 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: > Lee Passey wrote: > >> This response puzzled me at first. Why in the world would an end user >> /want/ to regenerate all the generated formats? On the other hand, >> why >> would an end user want to edit /all/ the generated formats or need to >> understand them all? > > He does not want to edit all formats. He wants to edit the format > of his > choice. He can edit the format of his choice by simply editing the TEI > master. > > In other 'philosophies' he should edit the HTML file, but that won't > help him any if his preferred format is PDF. > > >> What is now becoming apparent is that when Mr. Perathoner uses the >> word >> "user" he is talking about Mr. P, the publisher-user, and fails to >> recognize that when I use the words "end user" I am talking about >> Ms. C, >> the consumer-user. > > I'm talking about any kind of user that may want to edit the book. > > > -- > Marcello Perathoner > webmaster at gutenberg.org > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu Mar 1 10:36:49 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 13:36:49 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Jakob Nielsen On Life Long Computer Skills Message-ID: well, i've got enough discipline not to pull stuff out of my spam folder, but i need to practice not reading posts that are quoted by others... marcello -- according to a post made by keith -- said to me: > Your format cannot handle subtitles, which is particularly funny > since they are found in nearly every book and > the DP formatting guidelines exactly prescribe how to handle them. i guess since marcello has lost all of his credibility, then it really doesn't matter any more if he says something _blatently_false_... as you can see from the zml-to-html converter at: > http://www.z-m-l.com/go/vl2.pl z.m.l. handles 2-level titles just dandy, and indeed several of the example e-books _have_ such titles... -bowerbird p.s. and marcello, there's no need to address any points to me, because i'm no longer wasting any time reading your silly crap -- even if somebody quotes you in a subsequent post, and even if you're spewing stuff that can be easily shown to be contrary to fact, because i'm now convinced that no one believes anything you say... ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070301/0d7a7a9e/attachment.htm From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Mar 1 10:43:38 2007 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 19:43:38 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Jakob Nielsen On Life Long Computer Skills In-Reply-To: <48443A03-563A-4D2B-978E-A12BF8326AE0@uni-trier.de> References: <45E5ECD3.8030200@perathoner.de> <48443A03-563A-4D2B-978E-A12BF8326AE0@uni-trier.de> Message-ID: <45E71EDA.7050908@perathoner.de> Schultz Keith J. wrote: > Excuse me, WHAT is "Gutenberg complete" ? A pun on "Turing complete". Use wikipedia. > Another question is since when has it been the policy of > PG to represent every text feature in printed books? The policy of PG has always been to maim the books beyond recognition, throwing away every text feature not representable by "plain text". Its because we want to fix this, that we use a rich format like TEI. If you think preserving text features is not important, use beggar's markup, aka. ZML. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From schultzk at uni-trier.de Fri Mar 2 00:58:23 2007 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Schultz Keith J.) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:58:23 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Jakob Nielsen On Life Long Computer Skills In-Reply-To: <45E71EDA.7050908@perathoner.de> References: <45E5ECD3.8030200@perathoner.de> <48443A03-563A-4D2B-978E-A12BF8326AE0@uni-trier.de> <45E71EDA.7050908@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <14A13023-BF3B-4F37-B2F4-E0AD7316D029@uni-trier.de> Am 01.03.2007 um 19:43 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: > Schultz Keith J. wrote: > >> Excuse me, WHAT is "Gutenberg complete" ? > > A pun on "Turing complete". Use wikipedia. I assumed as much. What I wanted know is what is your point? > > >> Another question is since when has it been the policy of >> PG to represent every text feature in printed books? > > The policy of PG has always been to maim the books beyond recognition, > throwing away every text feature not representable by "plain text". > Its > because we want to fix this, that we use a rich format like TEI. I am to lazy to dig out the original post. If my memory serves you seemed to state that it was "Gutenberg complete" to markup the texts. > > If you think preserving text features is not important, use beggar's > markup, aka. ZML. I believe in preserving the text features. I beleive from the posts I have made in the past that should be clear to all. I believe I have also been on record of not being a advocate of "beggar's markup" nor of "posh markup" TEI. While we are at sly quotes "A fool and his markup are soon departed". regards Keith. From marcello at perathoner.de Fri Mar 2 09:52:17 2007 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 18:52:17 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Jakob Nielsen On Life Long Computer Skills In-Reply-To: <14A13023-BF3B-4F37-B2F4-E0AD7316D029@uni-trier.de> References: <45E5ECD3.8030200@perathoner.de> <48443A03-563A-4D2B-978E-A12BF8326AE0@uni-trier.de> <45E71EDA.7050908@perathoner.de> <14A13023-BF3B-4F37-B2F4-E0AD7316D029@uni-trier.de> Message-ID: <45E86451.9050101@perathoner.de> Schultz Keith J. wrote: > I am to lazy to dig out the original post. If my memory serves you > seemed to state that it was "Gutenberg complete" to markup the > texts. TEI has been used for many years now by people in all branches of linguistic science. There is scarcely a text feature that cannot be represented in TEI. Of all markup languages it comes closest to being Gutenberg complete. Our main purpose is to faithfully digitize old texts, so TEI is the language of our choice. > While we are at sly quotes "A fool and his markup are soon departed". Better look up your quotes first. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From ke at gnu.franken.de Sun Mar 4 00:09:53 2007 From: ke at gnu.franken.de (Karl Eichwalder) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 09:09:53 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] ID/IDREF Issues in PGTEI In-Reply-To: <45E5F0AB.9010209@perathoner.de> (Marcello Perathoner's message of "Wed\, 28 Feb 2007 22\:14\:19 +0100") References: <45E1B201.2030702@novomail.net> <61x2vLAn0g4FFwrm@thalasson.com> <156572968.20070225154637@noring.name> <45E33083.7030603@novomail.net> <45E33690.6010808@perathoner.de> <1185955344.20070226124940@noring.name> <45E34093.4010106@perathoner.de> <45E34B6B.6000602@novomail.net> <45E3595E.9080105@perathoner.de> <45E377FF.70706@novomail.net> <45E47ED9.7000403@perathoner.de> <45E49628.50204@novomail.net> <45E4B03C.7070109@perathoner.de> <1172615580.9560.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45E528F1.9020007@perathoner.de> <1172669024.9560.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45E5C76D.8090704@novomail.net> <45E5F0AB.9010209@perathoner.de> Message-ID: Where do you want us to discuss limitations of the PGTEI tools? In the "TEI PPing (F)AQ thread" http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16031&start=195 I recently reported ID/IDREF related issues. The most serious problem is that the tools rewrite IDs given in elements. -- http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/ | ,__o | _-\_<, | (*)/'(*) Key fingerprint = F138 B28F B7ED E0AC 1AB4 AA7F C90A 35C3 E9D0 5D1C From marcello at perathoner.de Sun Mar 4 10:27:15 2007 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 19:27:15 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] ID/IDREF Issues in PGTEI In-Reply-To: References: <45E1B201.2030702@novomail.net> <61x2vLAn0g4FFwrm@thalasson.com> <156572968.20070225154637@noring.name> <45E33083.7030603@novomail.net> <45E33690.6010808@perathoner.de> <1185955344.20070226124940@noring.name> <45E34093.4010106@perathoner.de> <45E34B6B.6000602@novomail.net> <45E3595E.9080105@perathoner.de> <45E377FF.70706@novomail.net> <45E47ED9.7000403@perathoner.de> <45E49628.50204@novomail.net> <45E4B03C.7070109@perathoner.de> <1172615580.9560.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45E528F1.9020007@perathoner.de> <1172669024.9560.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45E5C76D.8090704@novomail.net> <45E5F0AB.9010209@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <45EB0F83.6050702@perathoner.de> Karl Eichwalder wrote: > Where do you want us to discuss limitations of the PGTEI tools? > In the "TEI PPing (F)AQ thread" > http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16031&start=195 I recently > reported ID/IDREF related issues. The most serious problem is that the > tools rewrite IDs given in elements. The pb gets an id based on the page number. I don't remember why I put that in. Maybe somebody else remembers ... If nobody wants it that way, its easily removed ... -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From lee at novomail.net Sun Mar 4 11:50:14 2007 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 12:50:14 -0700 Subject: [gutvol-d] Conversion of TEI to HTML In-Reply-To: <45E4B03C.7070109@perathoner.de> References: <45E1B201.2030702@novomail.net> <61x2vLAn0g4FFwrm@thalasson.com> <156572968.20070225154637@noring.name> <45E33083.7030603@novomail.net> <45E33690.6010808@perathoner.de> <1185955344.20070226124940@noring.name> <45E34093.4010106@perathoner.de> <45E34B6B.6000602@novomail.net> <45E3595E.9080105@perathoner.de> <45E377FF.70706@novomail.net> <45E47ED9.7000403@perathoner.de> <45E49628.50204@novomail.net> <45E4B03C.7070109@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <45EB22F6.6060806@novomail.net> Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Lee Passey wrote: > > > Looking at your arguments it appears that you want to make things > > easier for the /producers/ of e-texts, whereas I want to make > > things easier for /consumers/. > > I want the user to edit the master document and then re-run the > conversion, allowing him to customize all generated formats in one > place. The user has to understand TEI. Quite an onerous expectation. > You want the user to edit all generated formats. The user has to > understand every format he wants to change. I want the end user to be able to select a different presentation without having to do any editing at all. If there is not an existing stylesheet for a desired presentation, the end user should be able to make minor changes to presentation by editing a personal stylesheet. If there are changes which are so fundamental that editing the document is required, then the end user /will/ have to understand "every" format she/he wants to change, but in all likelihood "every" equals "one," and no familiarity with TEI should be required. > It's again a question of philosophy. I'll stick with mine but you are > free to write a converter that works any way you like. Fair enough. The goal of the tei2html project is to develop a mechanism to convert TEI-encoded files to HTML-encoded files, without embedded styles. Requirements: 1. The converter should work on /any/ TEI-encoded file. PGTEI extensions can be ignored, but their presence should not cause failure. 2. The output must look reasonably good on user agents which do not support CSS styling, such as MobiPocket and ?Book. Thus, use of the tag should be minimized, and "rend" attributes on block-level elements may need to be refactored into two elements (e.g., '
content
' may need to be transformed into '
content
). 3. Style attributes on individual elements are prohibited. 4. The mechanism must be CSS-aware, capable of matching requested renderings with already declared styles. 5. The output will include a reference to a default CSS style sheet before any embedded style declarations, and will include a reference to a user CSS style sheet after all other style declarations. 6. Source code must be open and available for use by any person for any purpose. Thus, inclusion of GPL licensed code is prohibited. Strategy: Despite being self-described as "style sheets," XSL is, in fact, a complex and complete programming language. At this point I am not interested in learning yet another programming language. Instead, the conversion program will be written in 'C.' The Expat XML parsing routines (http://sourceforge.net/projects/expat) will be used in conjunction with the DOM API for C (http://sourceforge.net/projects/domcapi) to parse the TEI file into an internal DOM tree. CSS parsing routines will be developed to create a searchable structure of CSS selectors and rules. Conversion from TEI to XHTML will be done in place; the DOM tree will then be output via a "pretty print" routine. Availability: Source code for Expat and the DOM API for C ("domcapi") are available from SourceForge.net. Remaining code is available via anonymous CVS from www.passkeysoft.com; the module name is "tei2html" and the repository folder is "/var/lib/cvs/root" Contributors are welcome. From lee at novomail.net Sun Mar 4 12:55:05 2007 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 13:55:05 -0700 Subject: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and TEI-Lite Message-ID: <45EB3229.1010504@novomail.net> Is PGTEI limited to TEI-lite plus PG extensions, or is the entire TEI element set acceptable? From marcello at perathoner.de Sun Mar 4 13:36:40 2007 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 22:36:40 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and TEI-Lite In-Reply-To: <45EB3229.1010504@novomail.net> References: <45EB3229.1010504@novomail.net> Message-ID: <45EB3BE8.9030501@perathoner.de> Lee Passey wrote: > Is PGTEI limited to TEI-lite plus PG extensions, or is the entire TEI > element set acceptable? You can use the entire TEI set. The PGTEI converter currently understands only TEI-Lite tags. In future more TEI tags will be supported. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From klofstrom at gmail.com Sun Mar 4 13:37:51 2007 From: klofstrom at gmail.com (Karen Lofstrom) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:37:51 -1000 Subject: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and TEI-Lite In-Reply-To: <45EB3229.1010504@novomail.net> References: <45EB3229.1010504@novomail.net> Message-ID: <1e8e65080703041337l5938bbb3g9ac220840c265539@mail.gmail.com> On 3/4/07, Lee Passey wrote: > Is PGTEI limited to TEI-lite plus PG extensions, or is the entire TEI > element set acceptable? I still haven't grappled with PGTEI, but my preference would be to include the entire TEI element set. 99% of the material DP processes wouldn't need anything beyond the barebones set (PGTEI) but the 1% that is anomalous could be bumped up to someone who can handle it. If the routines that convert the base text to the various end-user formats must be constrained to the PGTEI subset (I can see that being necessary if the conversion code is to remain lean and fast) then perhaps we could make those odd texts available only in a limited number of formats, or even in one specialized format. Someone who needs a dictionary of Middle Ugaritic (to invent a book out of thin air) isn't going to object if it doesn't come in Mobipocket format. -- Karen Lofstrom From Bowerbird at aol.com Sun Mar 4 14:20:09 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 17:20:09 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and TEI-Lite Message-ID: karen said: > Someone who needs a dictionary of Middle Ugaritic > (to invent a book out of thin air) > isn't going to object if it doesn't come in Mobipocket format. or, on the other hand, that might be the _only_ reason they would want it. without surveying users, who knows? has anyone done any market research? -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070304/4bea528a/attachment.htm From joshua at hutchinson.net Sun Mar 4 15:52:22 2007 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (joshua at hutchinson.net) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 23:52:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [gutvol-d] ID/IDREF Issues in PGTEI Message-ID: <22789334.1173052342447.JavaMail.?@fh1063.dia.cp.net> I wouldn't use the as an anchor. I would actually use an tag for that. For instance, each one of my page breaks looks something like this: Josh >----Original Message---- >From: ke at gnu.franken.de >Date: Mar 4, 2007 3:09 >To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" >Subj: [gutvol-d] ID/IDREF Issues in PGTEI > >Where do you want us to discuss limitations of the PGTEI tools? >In the "TEI PPing (F)AQ thread" >http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16031&start=195 I recently >reported ID/IDREF related issues. The most serious problem is that the >tools rewrite IDs given in elements. > >-- >http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/ | ,__o > | _-\_<, > | (*)/'(*) >Key fingerprint = F138 B28F B7ED E0AC 1AB4 AA7F C90A 35C3 E9D0 5D1C >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From ke at gnu.franken.de Sun Mar 4 22:49:43 2007 From: ke at gnu.franken.de (Karl Eichwalder) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:49:43 +0100 (CET) Subject: [gutvol-d] ID/IDREF Issues in PGTEI In-Reply-To: <22789334.1173052342447.JavaMail.?@fh1063.dia.cp.net> References: <22789334.1173052342447.JavaMail.?@fh1063.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <49221.83.171.160.164.1173077383.squirrel@www.franken.de> > I wouldn't use the as an anchor. I would actually use an > tag for that. For instance, each one of my page breaks looks something > like this: > > That's fine, but my point is: If you use an ID with 'pb' (or with any other element), use must preserve and evaluate it depending on the output format. Otherwise you can easily break something. From schultzk at uni-trier.de Mon Mar 5 00:43:16 2007 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Schultz Keith J.) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:43:16 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Jakob Nielsen On Life Long Computer Skills In-Reply-To: <45E86451.9050101@perathoner.de> References: <45E5ECD3.8030200@perathoner.de> <48443A03-563A-4D2B-978E-A12BF8326AE0@uni-trier.de> <45E71EDA.7050908@perathoner.de> <14A13023-BF3B-4F37-B2F4-E0AD7316D029@uni-trier.de> <45E86451.9050101@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <959FC1E1-20B9-4087-BE33-2D091FC539E3@uni-trier.de> You evidently did not understand my point. PG uses plain vanilla texts aka "NO Markup" That would be for me "Gutenberg complete" You say "Gutenberg complete" is "Full Markup" Am 02.03.2007 um 18:52 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: > Schultz Keith J. wrote: > >> I am to lazy to dig out the original post. If my memory serves you >> seemed to state that it was "Gutenberg complete" to markup the >> texts. > > TEI has been used for many years now by people in all branches of > linguistic science. There is scarcely a text feature that cannot be > represented in TEI. Of all markup languages it comes closest to being > Gutenberg complete. Our main purpose is to faithfully digitize old > texts, so TEI is the language of our choice. > > >> While we are at sly quotes "A fool and his markup are soon >> departed". > > Better look up your quotes first. > Did I misquote: " A fool and his money are soon departed." regards Keith. From schultzk at uni-trier.de Mon Mar 5 03:41:29 2007 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Schultz Keith J.) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:41:29 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Conversion of TEI to HTML In-Reply-To: <45EB22F6.6060806@novomail.net> References: <45E1B201.2030702@novomail.net> <61x2vLAn0g4FFwrm@thalasson.com> <156572968.20070225154637@noring.name> <45E33083.7030603@novomail.net> <45E33690.6010808@perathoner.de> <1185955344.20070226124940@noring.name> <45E34093.4010106@perathoner.de> <45E34B6B.6000602@novomail.net> <45E3595E.9080105@perathoner.de> <45E377FF.70706@novomail.net> <45E47ED9.7000403@perathoner.de> <45E49628.50204@novomail.net> <45E4B03C.7070109@perathoner.de> <45EB22F6.6060806@novomail.net> Message-ID: <43DFD2B5-051F-4D24-9F2A-1613DBD2E0D4@uni-trier.de> Am 04.03.2007 um 20:50 schrieb Lee Passey: > Marcello Perathoner wrote: > >> Lee Passey wrote: >> >>> Looking at your arguments it appears that you want to make things >>> easier for the /producers/ of e-texts, whereas I want to make >>> things easier for /consumers/. >> > > Fair enough. > > The goal of the tei2html project is to develop a mechanism to convert > TEI-encoded files to HTML-encoded files, without embedded styles. > > Requirements: > > > 2. The output must look reasonably good on user agents which do not > support CSS styling, such as MobiPocket and ?Book. Thus, use of the > tag should be minimized, and "rend" attributes on block-level > elements may need to be refactored into two elements (e.g., '
rend="italics">content
' may need to be transformed into '
class="tei-rend">content
). > > 3. Style attributes on individual elements are prohibited. My opion may seem old-fashioned. Styles and CSS are nice and helpful when design websites. yet, If you want truely portable HTML and not worry about the feature which are supported by a browser, then I would strongly suggest to use what I call HTML-proper. That is: 1) no styles / if you have to use styles the must be defined in the source. 2) all formating should be done inline (you will not need styles) Yes, the files do become larger and the html source is harder to read, because is is full of markup, but the display is easily handled by the browser and editor itself. The conversion from TEI to HTML is not a problem as the dedicated converter can do all the redundant work and is able to keep everything apart. > > 4. The mechanism must be CSS-aware, capable of matching requested > renderings with already declared styles. > > 5. The output will include a reference to a default CSS style sheet > before any embedded style declarations, and will include a > reference to > a user CSS style sheet after all other style declarations. > regards Keith. From schultzk at uni-trier.de Mon Mar 5 03:48:44 2007 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Schultz Keith J.) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:48:44 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] ID/IDREF Issues in PGTEI In-Reply-To: <49221.83.171.160.164.1173077383.squirrel@www.franken.de> References: <22789334.1173052342447.JavaMail.?@fh1063.dia.cp.net> <49221.83.171.160.164.1173077383.squirrel@www.franken.de> Message-ID: <01A711AE-321A-47E8-B77B-8498B6E3C23C@uni-trier.de> Am 05.03.2007 um 07:49 schrieb Karl Eichwalder: >> I wouldn't use the as an anchor. I would actually use an >> >> tag for that. For instance, each one of my page breaks looks >> something >> like this: >> >> > > That's fine, but my point is: If you use an ID with 'pb' > (or with any other element), use must preserve and > evaluate it depending on the output format. Otherwise > you can easily break something. > I do not think this a problem for a converter. Naturally, only if it is design correctly. But, then again. Most do not believe in converters and expext everything to be done with style sheets. From marcello at perathoner.de Mon Mar 5 10:21:33 2007 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:21:33 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Jakob Nielsen On Life Long Computer Skills In-Reply-To: <959FC1E1-20B9-4087-BE33-2D091FC539E3@uni-trier.de> References: <45E5ECD3.8030200@perathoner.de> <48443A03-563A-4D2B-978E-A12BF8326AE0@uni-trier.de> <45E71EDA.7050908@perathoner.de> <14A13023-BF3B-4F37-B2F4-E0AD7316D029@uni-trier.de> <45E86451.9050101@perathoner.de> <959FC1E1-20B9-4087-BE33-2D091FC539E3@uni-trier.de> Message-ID: <45EC5FAD.2070307@perathoner.de> Schultz Keith J. wrote: > You say "Gutenberg complete" is "Full Markup" Nix. I said that a markup language that can faithfully encode all text features produced by a printing press is Gutenberg complete. > Did I misquote: " A fool and his money are soon departed." Use wikiquote. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From lee at novomail.net Mon Mar 5 10:39:34 2007 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:39:34 -0700 Subject: [gutvol-d] PGTEI and TEI-Lite In-Reply-To: <1e8e65080703041337l5938bbb3g9ac220840c265539@mail.gmail.com> References: <45EB3229.1010504@novomail.net> <1e8e65080703041337l5938bbb3g9ac220840c265539@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45EC63E6.30004@novomail.net> Karen Lofstrom wrote: > On 3/4/07, Lee Passey wrote: > >> Is PGTEI limited to TEI-lite plus PG extensions, or is the entire >> TEI element set acceptable? > > I still haven't grappled with PGTEI, but my preference would be to > include the entire TEI element set. 99% of the material DP processes > wouldn't need anything beyond the barebones set (PGTEI) but the 1% > that is anomalous could be bumped up to someone who can handle it. I agree with you in theory, however when it comes to the "bare-bones set," TEI-Lite is not it. Why do I say this? Existing texts use all sorts of esoteric structures. Right now TEI is the one markup language that comes closest to being able to represent all of these structures. However, even in a scheme like TEI which is close to being complete, you need to have some sort of element to represent those structures which the language is incapable of representing. TEI has three general purposes elements which may be used to mark and categorize both a span of text and a point within one. They provide a convenient way of extending the semantics of the TEI markup scheme, by providing 'anonymous' elements to which the encoder can add any meaning not supplied by other TEI defined elements. These elements are (anonymous block), an anonymous container for block-level elements analogous to, but without the semantic baggage of, a paragraph; (segment), any arbitrary phrase-level unit of text, and , which attaches an identifier to a point within a text, whether or not it corresponds with a textual element. The more incomplete the markup scheme, the more important it is that these general purpose elements be provided. Unfortunately, TEI-Lite includes the and elements but failed to include the element, arguably the most important of the three. As a result, people using TEI-Lite have regularly co-opted the

element as a generic block-level element; but, as the TEI consortium has noted, the

element carries a certain amount of semantic baggage: text marked with the

element is expected to a paragraph. It is important to distinguish between paragraphs and blocks of unknown or unspecified semantics, both for reasons of presentation and navigation. If you display paragraphs as indented and mark a generic block of text as a paragraph, the block will be indented as well (probably not what you wanted). If the block is centered, the first line will be indented before being centered, leading to a group of of lines where the first is not centered at the same point as the remainder. If you tell a group of students to go to the "second sentence of the second paragraph" on a page, they will skip over small blocks of text that are clearly not paragraphs (and may, in fact, be imbedded within a paragraph). But if you tell a computer program to go to the second paragraph all it can do is move to the second block of text marked with

. It is the responsibility of the encoder to be sure that the second marked block of text really /is/ a paragraph. I suspect that TEI-Lite + is probably /more/ than is required for a "bare-bones" markup set, but TEI-Lite without is /less/ than is required. Because is /permitted/ in PGTEI (indeed, it appears that /all/ of TEI is permitted in PGTEI), with Mr. Perathoner's permission I shall edit the paragraph entry in the PGTEI Wiki to indicate that the

element should be used only to markup paragraphs, and for other blocks of text which cannot be otherwise identified the element should be used instead. -- Nothing of significance below this line. From lee at novomail.net Mon Mar 5 12:00:58 2007 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:00:58 -0700 Subject: [gutvol-d] ID/IDREF Issues in PGTEI In-Reply-To: <22789334.1173052342447.JavaMail.?@fh1063.dia.cp.net> References: <22789334.1173052342447.JavaMail.?@fh1063.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <45EC76FA.8050604@novomail.net> joshua at hutchinson.net wrote: >> ----Original Message---- From: ke at gnu.franken.de Date: Mar 4, 2007 >> 3:09 To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer >> Discussion" Subj: [gutvol-d] ID/IDREF >> Issues in PGTEI >> >> Where do you want us to discuss limitations of the PGTEI tools? In >> the "TEI PPing (F)AQ thread" >> http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16031&start=195 I >> recently reported ID/IDREF related issues. The most serious >> problem is that the tools rewrite IDs given in elements. > > I wouldn't use the as an anchor. I would actually use an > tag for that. For instance, each one of my page breaks > looks something like this: > > But the problem is not related to how page breaks should be encoded in TEI, but how the element should be translated to HTML. Looking at the TEI spec (P5) I see that should be used to "mark the boundary between one page of a text and the next in a standard reference system." Typically, the standard reference system is the printed book which was the source for the file. OTOH, is used to "attach an identifier to a point within a text, whether or not it corresponds with a textual element." You might say (and the specification actually does say) that is like an arbitrary with an unspecified correspondence to the actual text. Personally, I wouldn't use both a and an at the same point in the text. If you have a "milestone" with a textual reference, why add another at the same point without a textual reference? In any case, the information contained in a element is important, and when converting TEI to HTML about the only HTML element which can reasonably carry that information is . If the TEI source contains both a element and an element, I would expect both of them to be translated to HTML elements. I think it is reasonable to convert the "n" value to an "id" value (being sure that it is prepended with an alphabetic character, as "id" values in HTML cannot begin with digits), /if and only if/ the element does not already posses an "xml:id" value; if so, the "id" should be preserved. Additionally, "id" values must be unique within the file, so generated "id" values must be carefully constructed to not collide with any other existing "id" value (easier said than done). So in the case of Mr. Hutchinson's example, because the tag has an id of "Pg100" when converting to HTML the generated "id" value for the tag must be given a /different/ id value, for example "pb_n_Pg100." -- Nothing of significance below this line. From robert_marquardt at gmx.de Tue Mar 6 21:04:23 2007 From: robert_marquardt at gmx.de (Robert Marquardt) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 06:04:23 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] SF CD ready for upload Message-ID: but i have no instructinos yet on how to proceed -- Robert Marquardt (Team JEDI) http://delphi-jedi.org From hart at pglaf.org Thu Mar 8 09:53:57 2007 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:53:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] !@!Re: A proper library In-Reply-To: <6D30E3AC-3FED-4B9E-B4C4-0179955DA7DE@uni-trier.de> References: <1e8e65080702161835s335a6c24h8ae7eccfbbaac533@mail.gmail.com> <6D30E3AC-3FED-4B9E-B4C4-0179955DA7DE@uni-trier.de> Message-ID: Sorry, for some reason this email was delayed a long time. As always, anyone who want to create a Project Gutenberg section as per their own rules and regulations, "A Proper Library" would be included, should be encouraged as much as we possibly can. There is no reason NOT to do so. . . . However, there is EVERY reason not to use FORCE to "impress" the volunteer base into "volunteering" against their will. . . . If you can get 90% of the volunteers to help you, and I would be one of the first, and can get 90% of the eBook created in format and provenance requirements suitable to you, so much the better! Get more efficient, you could probably approach 99%. But to make it 100%, and not let any other people do eBooks in a way they might want to donate, or to reject such donations until they appear in your preferred "Proper Library Format" is not and will not be in the cards. As always, Project Gutenberg says, "Go For It!" "Have It Your Way!" As we say so often. . . . Thanks!!! Give the world eBooks in 2007!!! Michael S. Hart Founder Project Gutenberg Blog at http://hart.pglaf.org On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, Schultz Keith J. wrote: > Hi All, > > Am 17.02.2007 um 03:35 schrieb Karen Lofstrom: > >> Some volunteers, including me, want PG to be a proper library. We want >> metadata and a good search engine. We want all the texts to be trusted >> texts: edition info, original scans available, and very high-quality >> e-text in a base version that generates user-friendly formats on the >> fly. Etcetera. Marcello made a list and I agree with all of it. > This would be nice, but this is not the goal of PG. > It would aslo mean that the contribution to PG be organized > completely different and requires an entirely different > infrastructure as you mentioned. Differnt Projects for PG are working > on this. >> >> Michael Hart, and some others, want PG to remain what I see as "a >> heap o' texts." As it has always been. There is no quality control and >> minimal organization. But it's free and wide open! >> >> If Michael, who controls PG, doesn't want a proper library, it doesn't >> seem that we can convince him to do it. We have no power to change >> anything. So perhaps it is time to start a proper library. Someone has >> to do it, instead of just kvetching. >> >> Alas, I don't have the time, money, or computer skills to do it. >> Perhaps I'm just kvetching. >> >> But if someone would take the LEAD, I could contribute my divorcee's >> mite. All I would ask is that even if it starts out as one person's >> passion, it should soon transition to a properly run foundation, with >> allowance made for input from volunteers. > Believe it or not PG is run properly. That is, in accourdance with > it goals! > > > regards > Keith. > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From robert_marquardt at gmx.de Thu Mar 8 10:13:16 2007 From: robert_marquardt at gmx.de (Robert Marquardt) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 19:13:16 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] SF CD ready for upload In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75k0v299ca79602f4dl2i4pglejr7bitgb@4ax.com> I have created the first CD today for testing purposes and the image printed to the CD looks beautiful. It also works without problems (no wonder i tested the ISO image already). I will create a small run of about 10 CDs tomorrow and optimize the printing a bit. 2 of the CDs are already assigned. The other 8 i can send out by snail mail. If you want one please send me your snail mail address directly. First come first serve (except Michael Hart who can get one even if late :). -- Robert Marquardt (Team JEDI) http://delphi-jedi.org From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Fri Mar 9 00:57:41 2007 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 08:57:41 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] !@!Re: A proper library In-Reply-To: References: <1e8e65080702161835s335a6c24h8ae7eccfbbaac533@mail.gmail.com> <6D30E3AC-3FED-4B9E-B4C4-0179955DA7DE@uni-trier.de> Message-ID: <2s72v2pa86um66gk8iqk1qmrlri5douups@4ax.com> On Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:53:57 -0800 (PST), Michael Hart wrote: |!However, there is EVERY reason not to use FORCE to "impress" the |!volunteer base into "volunteering" against their will. . . . Some volunteers have the *strangest* ideas about what is worth preserving as e-books, and only work on their chosen field. ;-) If a committee were to determine what books were "appropriate" they would just put these books on their own web site, and not endure the aggravation of getting these books to PG technical standards. -- Dave Fawthrop For Yorkshire Dialect http://www.gutenberg.org/author/John_Hartley http://www.gutenberg.org/author/F_W_Moorman 20,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! http://www.gutenberg.org From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Fri Mar 9 00:59:19 2007 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 08:59:19 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] SF CD ready for upload In-Reply-To: <75k0v299ca79602f4dl2i4pglejr7bitgb@4ax.com> References: <75k0v299ca79602f4dl2i4pglejr7bitgb@4ax.com> Message-ID: <3d82v25jnom7pan425hr9k6k9knkt5solr@4ax.com> On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 19:13:16 +0100, Robert Marquardt wrote: |!I have created the first CD today for testing purposes and the image printed to the CD looks beautiful. It also works |!without problems (no wonder i tested the ISO image already). |!I will create a small run of about 10 CDs tomorrow and optimize the printing a bit. 2 of the CDs are already assigned. |!The other 8 i can send out by snail mail. If you want one please send me your snail mail address directly. First come |!first serve (except Michael Hart who can get one even if late :). Yes please. -- Dave Fawthrop 8 Cooper Grove, Shelf, Halifax, HX3 7RF, UK, From robert_marquardt at gmx.de Fri Mar 9 10:04:56 2007 From: robert_marquardt at gmx.de (Robert Marquardt) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 19:04:56 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] SF CD ready for upload In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2783v25vhn992sgou03h4d5tk8og4k7d3p@4ax.com> Four CD assigned already. Two over at DP, one for Dave and one i gave to the owner of this bookshop http://www.morgenwelt.org The shop is only 5 minutes by foot from my home and i can buy all the english SF i want there. That is not that easy in Berlin. The shop owner does read PG SF books. :-) -- Robert Marquardt (Team JEDI) http://delphi-jedi.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Mar 9 11:26:59 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:26:59 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] metaweb Message-ID: the "metaweb" idea looks interesting... http://www.metaweb.com -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070309/e515d340/attachment.htm From cannona at fireantproductions.com Fri Mar 9 11:14:31 2007 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:14:31 -0600 Subject: [gutvol-d] SF CD ready for upload References: <2783v25vhn992sgou03h4d5tk8og4k7d3p@4ax.com> Message-ID: <002401c76297$6ad312b0$0300a8c0@blackbox> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: RIPEMD160 Where can one find the .iso? Aaron - -- Skype: cannona MSN/Windows Messenger: cannona at hotmail.com (don't send email to the hotmail address.) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Marquardt" To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] SF CD ready for upload > Four CD assigned already. Two over at DP, one for Dave and one i gave to > the owner of this bookshop > http://www.morgenwelt.org > The shop is only 5 minutes by foot from my home and i can buy all the > english SF i want there. That is not that easy in > Berlin. The shop owner does read PG SF books. :-) > -- > Robert Marquardt (Team JEDI) http://delphi-jedi.org > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFF8drTI7J99hVZuJcRA+77AKDWZFE/+0lAQKb/ASr46TTqlZ1KZwCeK9qK yYCRLUcRmSDsBBk/Ovn4940= =kd/r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From joshua at hutchinson.net Fri Mar 9 14:12:40 2007 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (joshua at hutchinson.net) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 22:12:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [gutvol-d] SF CD ready for upload Message-ID: <12484847.1173478360014.JavaMail.?@fh1038.dia.cp.net> Robert and I are still waiting on Greg Newby as to how to handle the iso posting to the PG archives. Greg has handled all the iso postings up to this point and the rest of the ww'ers were not sure of any special procedures he had in place. Josh >----Original Message---- >From: cannona at fireantproductions.com >Date: Mar 9, 2007 14:14 >To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" >Subj: Re: [gutvol-d] SF CD ready for upload > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: RIPEMD160 > >Where can one find the .iso? > >Aaron > > >- -- >Skype: cannona >MSN/Windows Messenger: cannona at hotmail.com (don't send email to the hotmail >address.) >- ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Robert Marquardt" >To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" >Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 12:04 PM >Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] SF CD ready for upload > > >> Four CD assigned already. Two over at DP, one for Dave and one i gave to >> the owner of this bookshop >> http://www.morgenwelt.org >> The shop is only 5 minutes by foot from my home and i can buy all the >> english SF i want there. That is not that easy in >> Berlin. The shop owner does read PG SF books. :-) >> -- >> Robert Marquardt (Team JEDI) http://delphi-jedi.org >> _______________________________________________ >> gutvol-d mailing list >> gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org >> http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 >Comment: Key available from all major key servers. > >iD8DBQFF8drTI7J99hVZuJcRA+77AKDWZFE/+0lAQKb/ASr46TTqlZ1KZwCeK9qK >yYCRLUcRmSDsBBk/Ovn4940= >=kd/r >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From cannona at fireantproductions.com Fri Mar 9 14:44:37 2007 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 16:44:37 -0600 Subject: [gutvol-d] SF CD ready for upload References: <12484847.1173478360014.JavaMail.?@fh1038.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <000c01c7629c$9e72c390$0300a8c0@blackbox> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: RIPEMD160 Well, if you can put it somewhere I can get it from, I would be more than happy to add it to the PG BitTorrent tracker. Aaron - -- Skype: cannona MSN/Windows Messenger: cannona at hotmail.com (don't send email to the hotmail address.) - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] SF CD ready for upload > Robert and I are still waiting on Greg Newby as to how to handle the > iso posting to the PG archives. > > Greg has handled all the iso postings up to this point and the rest of > the ww'ers were not sure of any special procedures he had in place. > > Josh > >>----Original Message---- >>From: cannona at fireantproductions.com >>Date: Mar 9, 2007 14:14 >>To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" org> >>Subj: Re: [gutvol-d] SF CD ready for upload >> >>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>Hash: RIPEMD160 >> >>Where can one find the .iso? >> >>Aaron >> >> >>- -- >>Skype: cannona >>MSN/Windows Messenger: cannona at hotmail.com (don't send email to the > hotmail >>address.) >>- ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Robert Marquardt" >>To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" org> >>Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 12:04 PM >>Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] SF CD ready for upload >> >> >>> Four CD assigned already. Two over at DP, one for Dave and one i > gave to >>> the owner of this bookshop >>> http://www.morgenwelt.org >>> The shop is only 5 minutes by foot from my home and i can buy all > the >>> english SF i want there. That is not that easy in >>> Berlin. The shop owner does read PG SF books. :-) >>> -- >>> Robert Marquardt (Team JEDI) http://delphi-jedi.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gutvol-d mailing list >>> gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org >>> http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d >> >>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >>Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 >>Comment: Key available from all major key servers. >> >>iD8DBQFF8drTI7J99hVZuJcRA+77AKDWZFE/+0lAQKb/ASr46TTqlZ1KZwCeK9qK >>yYCRLUcRmSDsBBk/Ovn4940= >>=kd/r >>-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >>_______________________________________________ >>gutvol-d mailing list >>gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org >>http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d >> > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFF8eOBI7J99hVZuJcRA4YjAJ982+XDJqvE2nAT7fhU0wcpo+TKGgCg+RUl afvMnbUiLcMYmmP22Q6MflM= =aAf3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vze3rknp at verizon.net Fri Mar 9 16:22:39 2007 From: vze3rknp at verizon.net (Juliet Sutherland) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 19:22:39 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] DP Posts 10,000th Book to PG Message-ID: <45F1FA4F.80407@verizon.net> Today Distributed Proofreaders posted a package of 15 texts that takes us over 10,000 completed titles. I'm very proud of our community of volunteers who have accomplished this beautiful number. The 10K package (listed below) showcases the wide range of our volunteers' interests and talents. A detailed article about this event will appear in the PG Newsletter, so I'll keep this short. Congratulations to all the volunteers who have made this event possible! Where else but DP & PG would one find such an eclecticly significant set of ebooks? JulietS 20771 Species Plantarum: Monandria, Diandria and Triandria by Carolus Linnaeus (Carl von Linn?) 1753 Latin 20772 Agriculture for beginners, Rev. ed. by Charles William Burkett, Frank Lincoln Stevens, and Daniel Harvey Hill. 1914 20773 Marchand de Venise by Shakespeare, trans. by M. Guizot. original 1821, ed. transcribed.1862 French 20774 The Shanty Book, Part I, Sailor Shanties by Richard Runciman Terry (1864-1938) 1921 20775 The annals of the Cakchiquels: The original text, with a translation, notes, and introduction by Francisco Ernantez Arana (fl. 1582), trans. by and edit. by Daniel G. Brinton (1837-1899) 1885 English/Cakchiquel Mayan 20776 Encyclopedia of Needlework, by Therese de Dillmont originally from 1884 20777 R. Caldecott's First Collection of Pictures and Songs by Randolph Caldecott. [1900-1909?] 20778 Sylva, or, A Discourse of Forest-Trees by John Evelyn (1620-1706) 1664 20779 Heimatlos by Johanna Spyri, 1890 German 20780 Punch, or the London Charivari, Volume 159, October 27, 1920 20781 Heidi by Johanna Spyri, trans. Elisabeth P. Stork, with an intro by Charles Wharton Stork, A.M. PhD, Illustrations by Maria L. Kirk. Gift edition. 1919 20782 Triplanetary, by E.E. Smith 1934 20783 Como atravessei ?frica (v. II), by Alexandre Alberto da Rocha de Serpa Pinto (aka Serpa Pinto) 1881 Portuguese 20784 Eighth Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, 1886-1887, ed. John Wesley Powell 20785 Slave Narratives, Oklahoma (A Folk History of Slavery in the United States From Interviews with Former Slaves) Works Project Administration Federal Writer's Project 1936-1938 From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Mar 9 16:35:14 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 19:35:14 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] DP Posts 10,000th Book to PG Message-ID: hearty congratulations to all of the d.p. volunteers, and the hardworking organizers who keep it going! -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070309/d3706920/attachment.htm From ricardofdiogo at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 17:00:39 2007 From: ricardofdiogo at gmail.com (Ricardo F Diogo) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 01:00:39 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] DP Posts 10,000th Book to PG In-Reply-To: <45F1FA4F.80407@verizon.net> References: <45F1FA4F.80407@verizon.net> Message-ID: <9c6138c50703091700yd26fc3fx452c87f80900b927@mail.gmail.com> 2007/3/10, Juliet Sutherland : > > Where else but DP & PG would one find such an eclecticly significant set > of ebooks? Two amazingly valuable efforts that have changed my concept of what can be done for culture and literacy. Congratulations and many thanks to all DPers! Ricardo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070310/d899a19d/attachment.htm From robert_marquardt at gmx.de Fri Mar 9 21:11:55 2007 From: robert_marquardt at gmx.de (Robert Marquardt) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 06:11:55 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] SF CD ready for upload In-Reply-To: <002401c76297$6ad312b0$0300a8c0@blackbox> References: <2783v25vhn992sgou03h4d5tk8og4k7d3p@4ax.com> <002401c76297$6ad312b0$0300a8c0@blackbox> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:14:31 -0600, you wrote: >Where can one find the .iso? It is not uploaded yet. It will be a book like the other PG CDs linked from http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg:The_CD_and_DVD_Project -- Robert Marquardt (Team JEDI) http://delphi-jedi.org From robert_marquardt at gmx.de Fri Mar 9 21:17:55 2007 From: robert_marquardt at gmx.de (Robert Marquardt) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 06:17:55 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] SF CD ready for upload In-Reply-To: <000c01c7629c$9e72c390$0300a8c0@blackbox> References: <12484847.1173478360014.JavaMail.?@fh1038.dia.cp.net> <000c01c7629c$9e72c390$0300a8c0@blackbox> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Mar 2007 16:44:37 -0600, you wrote: >Well, if you can put it somewhere I can get it from, I would be more than >happy to add it to the PG BitTorrent tracker. Greg Newby has contacted me, but i got no upload data yet. I think it is best if i only upload the zipped ISO and the unzipped ISO, the simple Zip with the CD content and the split files are generated on the server. That should be much faster than me uploading them all. Upload is slow and it would sum up to 1 Gigabyte easily. -- Robert Marquardt (Team JEDI) http://delphi-jedi.org From hart at pglaf.org Fri Mar 9 22:01:36 2007 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 22:01:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] DP Posts 10,000th Book to PG In-Reply-To: <9c6138c50703091700yd26fc3fx452c87f80900b927@mail.gmail.com> References: <45F1FA4F.80407@verizon.net> <9c6138c50703091700yd26fc3fx452c87f80900b927@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Mar 2007, Ricardo F Diogo wrote: > 2007/3/10, Juliet Sutherland : > >> >> Where else but DP & PG would one find such an eclecticly significant set >> of ebooks? > > > Two amazingly valuable efforts that have changed my concept of what can be > done for culture and literacy. Congratulations and many thanks to all DPers! > > Ricardo > An eclectronic library? From ricardofdiogo at gmail.com Sat Mar 10 04:06:20 2007 From: ricardofdiogo at gmail.com (Ricardo F Diogo) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:06:20 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] DP Posts 10,000th Book to PG In-Reply-To: References: <45F1FA4F.80407@verizon.net> <9c6138c50703091700yd26fc3fx452c87f80900b927@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c6138c50703100406u2778d2fet63bbb8d41a16d0b@mail.gmail.com> 2007/3/10, Michael Hart : > > Two amazingly valuable efforts that have changed my concept of what can > be > > done for culture and literacy. Congratulations and many thanks to all > DPers! > > > > Ricardo > > > > An eclectronic library? > > An electronic library made by _thousands_ of people who don't have to depend on governmental "go"s or budgets and can catch scannos as if it was an online game. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070310/10056053/attachment-0001.htm From tb at baechler.net Sun Mar 11 01:17:11 2007 From: tb at baechler.net (Tony Baechler) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 01:17:11 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Another PG mention on slashdot.org Message-ID: <20070311091711.GA29483@investigative.net> The following is from slashdot.org. The numbered links are apparently images. Despite what others say on this list, it's nice to see PG used in education like this. ftblguy writes "MIT's Open CourseWare program provides a great example of how the open source movement is impacting education. The Online Education Database also lists Project Gutenberg, Wikipedia, Linux, Firefox, and Google (?) as some of the other open source in education success stories. Open source and open access resources have changed how colleges, organizations, instructors, and prospective students use software, operating systems, and online documents for educational purposes. Each success story has served as a springboard to create more open source successes." [![][1]][2] [1]: http://rss.slashdot.org/~a/Slashdot/slashdot?i=mAipmf [2]: http://rss.slashdot.org/~a/Slashdot/slashdot?a=mAipmf ![][3] [3]: http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~4/99686756 URL: http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/99686756/article.pl ----- End forwarded message ----- From hart at pglaf.org Mon Mar 12 12:09:41 2007 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [gutvol-d] Distributed Proofreaders Announces 10,000th eBook Message-ID: Distributed Proofreaders Announces 10,000th eBook CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!! In a serious move to release eBooks in a number of fields on this momentous occasions, The Distributed Proofreaders have surpassed the great milestone of 10,000 eBooks, long thought to be dividing line between feasibility study and the real thing. Well, Distributed Proofreaders is definitely a real thing in terms of being one of the most successful projects the Internet and World Wide Web have ever seen, taking a five year term since getting up to speed and parlaying it into an electronic library second to none in the world. Without any more funding than a few nice scanners and the other necessities of virtual life, some 50,000 volunteers have worked to bring these 10,000 electronic books to the world at large. . .all free for the downloading. > From rare languages to Linnaeus on species to children's, and other classics, including Shakespeare in French, this group is involved in the extension of libraries beyond an imagination of just a few years ago. These works include fundamentals in many fields across an impressive set of subjects from agriculture to an example of the finest from The Golden Age of Science Fiction with the first installment of the famous "Lensman Series." Also included are ethnology reporting to the Smithsonian, along with a folk history of American slavery, and shanty songs sung by sailors on the open seas. This small collection that puts Distributed Proofreaders, and their army of volunteers, across the 10,000 book mark includes works in handful of languages, both in originals and also in translation. . .a fitting example of the list of the 10,000 eBooks already prepared, and those to come. Again Congratulations!!! Michael S. Hart Founder Project Gutenberg From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Mar 12 14:10:31 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:10:31 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] another site using p.g. e-texts Message-ID: here's a cool site using p.g. e-texts: > http://www.quotationsbook.com -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070312/70c51d52/attachment.htm From jon.ingram at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 15:56:20 2007 From: jon.ingram at gmail.com (Jon Ingram) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:56:20 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] Manual of Surgery oddly popular Message-ID: <4baf53720703121556p46e30618qf341615932b26d92@mail.gmail.com> As the guy who scanned it (although other DP volunteers did most of the work proofreading and HTML-izing it), I've been keeping an eye on the popularity of the Manual of Surgery http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/17921 for a while now... it seems to be oddly popular, being the most popular book downloaded in the last week, and the second most popular in the last month. Can people with access to the web stats give any clues as to why this is? I was wondering if deep-linking to particular images would be counted by the PG site as a download of the whole text... if not, I can only assume there are a lot of people out there who enjoy looking at gory pictures of various diseases and malformations! I hope that no one downloads it expecting a Dummies Guide To Home Surgery, anyhow -- some things have changed just a touch in the last 90 years! From marcello at perathoner.de Tue Mar 13 15:34:06 2007 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:34:06 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Manual of Surgery oddly popular In-Reply-To: <4baf53720703121556p46e30618qf341615932b26d92@mail.gmail.com> References: <4baf53720703121556p46e30618qf341615932b26d92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F726DE.6090607@perathoner.de> Jon Ingram wrote: > As the guy who scanned it (although other DP volunteers did most of > the work proofreading and HTML-izing it), I've been keeping an eye on > the popularity of the Manual of Surgery > > http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/17921 > > for a while now... it seems to be oddly popular, being the most > popular book downloaded in the last week, and the second most popular > in the last month. Can people with access to the web stats give any > clues as to why this is? Search for "penis enlargements" on google images. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Mar 13 16:50:35 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:50:35 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] swimmingly Message-ID: ok, things are going quite swimmingly over here in my second-grade class at web-programming elementary school. (cue all the "second-grade" jokes now.) so far, it looks like i am able to do just about everything i want to do. and if i should run into any big obstacles, i feel good knowing i can ask the experts right here on this listserve for their advice. -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070313/3c31c816/attachment.htm From jon.ingram at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 00:12:51 2007 From: jon.ingram at gmail.com (Jon Ingram) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:12:51 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] Manual of Surgery oddly popular In-Reply-To: <45F726DE.6090607@perathoner.de> References: <4baf53720703121556p46e30618qf341615932b26d92@mail.gmail.com> <45F726DE.6090607@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <4baf53720703140012t495b9d5fh5e877ab7244ff186@mail.gmail.com> On 3/13/07, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Search for "penis enlargements" on google images. How could I pass up a request like that? Ah, I see the link, on the second page of results. I find it a little hard to believe that people looking for penis enlargement would click on an obviously medical image entitled "Elephantiasis of Penis and Scrotum", but it takes all sorts, I suppose. (I bet this message gets caught in lots of mail filters :) ). -- Jon From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Wed Mar 14 00:51:23 2007 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:51:23 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] swimmingly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:50:35 EDT, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: |!ok, things are going quite swimmingly |!over here in my second-grade class at |!web-programming elementary school. |!(cue all the "second-grade" jokes now.) |! |!so far, it looks like i am able to do |!just about everything i want to do. |! |!and if i should run into any big obstacles, |!i feel good knowing i can ask the experts |!right here on this listserve for their advice. An appropriate Usenet newsgroup would be better than an Off Topic question on any listserver. -- Dave Fawthrop From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Mar 14 12:05:36 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:05:36 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] swimmingly Message-ID: dave said: > An? appropriate Usenet newsgroup would be > better than an Off Topic question on any listserver. let's see if i ask any questions first. if i do, then we can see if they're off-topic. if they are, then we can decide what to do about them. ok? -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070314/679f8bb5/attachment.htm From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Wed Mar 14 12:16:10 2007 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:16:10 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] swimmingly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:05:36 EDT, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: |!dave said: |!> An? appropriate Usenet newsgroup would be |!> better than an Off Topic question on any listserver. |! |!let's see if i ask any questions first. |!if i do, then we can see if they're off-topic. |!if they are, then we can decide what to do about them. |! |!ok? Just advertising usenet where you can get a good answer to the most obscure questions. -- Dave Fawthrop 165 *Free* SF ebooks. 165 Sci Fi books on CDROM, from Project Gutenberg http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page Completely Free to any address in the UK. Contact me on the *above* email address. From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Mar 14 12:39:23 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:39:23 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] swimmingly Message-ID: dave said: > Just advertising usenet where you can get > a good answer to the most obscure questions. ok, thanks for the tip! :+) but actually, google is my second-grade teacher, and i'm getting along just fine with her these days. i'm the only old man in her class, and she has the hots for me, and she hasn't been shy about letting me know. -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070314/3cf21e59/attachment.htm From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu Mar 15 15:50:28 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 18:50:28 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] hacker-david and wget Message-ID: hacker-david, you posted a one-liner wget to grab all p.g. e-texts, but i cannot locate my copy now. could we have that again please? -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070315/7feb32c7/attachment.htm From joey at joeysmith.com Thu Mar 15 21:17:49 2007 From: joey at joeysmith.com (joey) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:17:49 -0600 Subject: [gutvol-d] hacker-david and wget In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070316041749.GA1053@joeysmith.com> On Thu, Mar 15, 2007 at 06:50:28PM -0400, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > hacker-david, you posted a one-liner wget to grab all p.g. e-texts, > but i cannot locate my copy now. could we have that again please? > > -bowerbird As was discussed at the time, using wget is a sub-optimal way to download all e-texts. You should almost certainly be using rsync instead. >From the mirroring HOWTO: Most mirrors use rsync (easiest and recommended) or the mirror Perl software (requires some configuration). Note that wget and cURL are not recommended, because they need to "touch" hundreds of thousands of files just to get the few that were updated recently. Here is an overview for each: 1. Rsync: Available for all Unix systems; standard on Linux; part of Cygwin for Windows. The last argument is the local directory for the mirror destination: rsync -avHS --delete ftp at ftp.ibiblio.org::gutenberg /home/ftp/pub/mirrors/gutenberg From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Mar 16 23:47:16 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 02:47:16 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] hacker-david and wget Message-ID: joey said: > You should almost certainly be using rsync instead. ok, i'm happy to use rsync instead. so how do i specify to download _only_ .txt files and graphic files? oh, and _no_ human genome files, even though they have a .txt suffix. (i think their names contain "hgp".) or perhaps to specify a max filesize, so files bigger than that are ignored? *** also, there is one filename that is duplicated in the library. does anyone know what it is? there is also one _book_ that is duplicated, under two filenames. anyone know that one? i have the info somewhere, but can't find it... -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070317/096e45c9/attachment.htm From jmdyck at ibiblio.org Sat Mar 17 00:35:32 2007 From: jmdyck at ibiblio.org (Michael Dyck) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 00:35:32 -0700 Subject: [gutvol-d] duplicate filenames In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45FB9A44.7050307@ibiblio.org> Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > > also, there is one filename that is duplicated > in the library. does anyone know what it is? If you're talking about files in the etextNN directories, there's a lot more than just one. I've appended a list of 34. (I left out 6 cases where the same filename appears in more than one directory, but the files all have the same content. In the cases below, the files have different content.) -Michael Dyck 1ws5010.txt: etext03 etext99 1ws5010.zip: etext03 etext99 1ws5110.txt: etext03 etext99 1ws5110.zip: etext03 etext99 7gs1710.txt: etext04 etext05 7gs1710.zip: etext04 etext05 8agin10.zip: etext00 etext04 8dame10.txt: etext00 etext05 8dame10.zip: etext00 etext05 8gs1710.txt: etext04 etext05 8gs1710.zip: etext04 etext05 8mede10.txt: etext02 etext05 8mede10.zip: etext02 etext05 8rome10.txt: etext04 etext06 8rome10.zip: etext04 etext06 conam10.txt: etext04 etext95 conam10.zip: etext04 etext95 gltrv10.txt: etext03 etext97 gltrv10.zip: etext03 etext97 ldchn10.txt: etext02 etext99 ldchn10.zip: etext02 etext99 ltpln10.txt: etext01 etext02 ltpln10.zip: etext01 etext02 magi10.txt: etext05 etext92 magi10.zip: etext05 etext92 marbo10.txt: etext00 etext01 marbo10.zip: etext00 etext01 marbo10r.zip: etext00 etext01 marie10.txt: etext02 etext99 marie10.zip: etext02 etext99 mothr10.txt: etext03 etext98 mothr10.zip: etext03 etext98 wldfl10.txt: etext02 etext97 wldfl10.zip: etext02 etext97 From klofstrom at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 10:35:58 2007 From: klofstrom at gmail.com (Karen Lofstrom) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:35:58 -1000 Subject: [gutvol-d] Bibliographic info has been munged Message-ID: <1e8e65080703171035l6795d7f5q7d6dccfb2aeeac3d@mail.gmail.com> I was the post-processor of ebook number 13603, The Romance of Laieikawai, which I'm fairly sure was submitted to PG in two parts, as an English-language critical apparatus by Martha Beckwith and a Hawaiian text by S. Haleole. Someone has combined the two texts (which is fine) but has stripped all mention of the two authors and of the fact that there's a Hawaiian text there. The book is now credited to Anonymous and the Gutenberg interface doesn't mention the Hawaiian language at all. I don't know who did this. I'm sure it was well-intentioned, but it renders the book completely unfindable. Someone please fix it. This is why we need a proper library and librarian. Mention should also be made of the BAE (Bureau of American Ethnology) report from which this originally comes. I've also discovered that typing "Hawai'i" into the advanced search subject box brings up one book, when in fact there are a fair number of PG texts relating to Hawai'i, including the Romance. I'm fairly sure that there used to be more hits when one typed "Hawai'i". Just what the heck is happening? -- Karen Lofstrom From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Sat Mar 17 11:23:30 2007 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 18:23:30 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF CDROM In-Reply-To: References: <3d82v25jnom7pan425hr9k6k9knkt5solr@4ax.com> <1mc3v2pl6qjn0ri4b0lnk6o4j05qlg3mul@4ax.com> <9kdgv29bg3fm992qslegi1ktojrid40lrv@4ax.com> <0pegv2lm5a87fhmo169h4kjv9n5d4shr1h@4ax.com> <78mkv2ld6mhmkndk37nbel0vvfoi4au6cc@4ax.com> Message-ID: I happen to be the recipient of one of the first 10 copies, and immediately got a request for another copy. Content looked fine to me at a quick scan. Copying the CDROM worked fine. Producing the round sticky labile for the CDROM required a little adjustment to get it onto the commercial sticky labled which I use. so this classed as OK. The content of the Jewel case insert and leaflet were fine Printing the booklet failed completely because it is only available as pdf, and odt. Pdf prints different sizes depending on the paper used, and is completely wrong for the commercial Jewel case inserts which I use. .odt I do not have on my machine. It is totally necessary if this CD is to realise its potential that Gif, tif or jpg versions of the various components of "CD Inlay and Booklet Color" be added to the CD I have approached Robert Marquardt but he just insults my choice of software :-( and insists that his software by used -- Dave Fawthrop 165 *Free* SF ebooks. 165 Sci Fi books on CDROM, from Project Gutenberg http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page Completely Free to any address in the UK. Contact me on the *above* email address. On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:13:14 +0100, Robert Marquardt wrote: |!On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:41:53 +0000, you wrote: |! |!>I am duly subdued for not having *in your opinion* *your* favourite word |!>processor. **NOT** |! |!How many word processors should be supported? I added a print format which allows easy printing of the booklet on many |!OSes, I added an open format as the source for the booklet. Non! What is required is that the leaflet for the CDROM is distributed in an industry standard graphics format for the graphics so that **anyone** with any software on **any** computer hardware can use it. I do that for my commercial CDROMS. Remember we are working for Project Gutenberg which insists that texts are available in *plain text* which can be read on any computer |!>I have enough junk on my computer. |! |!Obviously. |! |!>"CD Inlay and Booklet Gray" does not exist on the CDROM as a tif gif or |!>jpeg file |! |!Adding it as jpeg image does not make sense at all. Jpeg, Tif and Gif do not carry enough information to allow accurate |!dimensions when printing. Print it and it does not fit the jewelbox. No graphics package is perfect but all the above are perfectly adequate for a simple small leaflet. tif, gif and jpeg files will produce a result. |!>You are clearly more intent on forcing your choice of software on others, |!>than allowing others to duplicate your work. |! |!Huh? PDF for accurate printing No! unfortunately the size differs dependant on the paper used |Open format for the booklet. The rest images, because CD printing programs follow no |!standard. BTW i asked for critisism on gutvol-d, but never got any answer. I have a dial up line and downloading a full CDROM is painful if not impossible. From marcello at perathoner.de Sat Mar 17 11:27:22 2007 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:27:22 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Bibliographic info has been munged In-Reply-To: <1e8e65080703171035l6795d7f5q7d6dccfb2aeeac3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e8e65080703171035l6795d7f5q7d6dccfb2aeeac3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45FC330A.9020109@perathoner.de> Karen Lofstrom wrote: > I was the post-processor of ebook number 13603, The Romance of > Laieikawai, which I'm fairly sure was submitted to PG in two parts, as > an English-language critical apparatus by Martha Beckwith and a > Hawaiian text by S. Haleole. Someone has combined the two texts (which > is fine) but has stripped all mention of the two authors and of the > fact that there's a Hawaiian text there. The book is now credited to > Anonymous and the Gutenberg interface doesn't mention the Hawaiian > language at all. The catalog only picks up what is in the pg header. If the header is bogus, so will be the catalog entry unless somebody fixes it by hand. > I've also discovered that typing "Hawai'i" into the advanced search > subject box brings up one book, when in fact there are a fair number > of PG texts relating to Hawai'i, including the Romance. I'm fairly > sure that there used to be more hits when one typed "Hawai'i". Just > what the heck is happening? LoC subjects have been entered for less than one half of the books. Any volunteers ? -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From cannona at fireantproductions.com Sat Mar 17 11:40:14 2007 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:40:14 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF CDROM References: <3d82v25jnom7pan425hr9k6k9knkt5solr@4ax.com><1mc3v2pl6qjn0ri4b0lnk6o4j05qlg3mul@4ax.com><9kdgv29bg3fm992qslegi1ktojrid40lrv@4ax.com><0pegv2lm5a87fhmo169h4kjv9n5d4shr1h@4ax.com><78mkv2ld6mhmkndk37nbel0vvfoi4au6cc@4ax.com> Message-ID: <000b01c768c3$be2f49b0$0300a8c0@blackbox> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: RIPEMD160 BTW, the cd is available for download via BitTorrent at http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu:6969 - -- Skype: cannona MSN/Windows Messenger: cannona at hotmail.com (don't send email to the hotmail address.) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Fawthrop" To: Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 1:23 PM Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF CDROM >I happen to be the recipient of one of the first 10 copies, and immediately > got a request for another copy. > > Content looked fine to me at a quick scan. > > Copying the CDROM worked fine. > > Producing the round sticky labile for the CDROM required a little > adjustment to get it onto the commercial sticky labled which I use. so > this classed as OK. > > The content of the Jewel case insert and leaflet were fine > > Printing the booklet failed completely because it is only available as > pdf, > and odt. Pdf prints different sizes depending on the paper used, and is > completely wrong for the commercial Jewel case inserts which I use. .odt I > do not have on my machine. > > It is totally necessary if this CD is to realise its potential that Gif, > tif or jpg versions of the various components of "CD Inlay and Booklet > Color" be added to the CD > > I have approached Robert Marquardt but he just insults my choice of > software :-( and insists that his software by used > > -- > Dave Fawthrop 165 *Free* SF ebooks. > 165 Sci Fi books on CDROM, from Project Gutenberg > http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page Completely Free to any > address in the UK. Contact me on the *above* email address. > > > On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:13:14 +0100, Robert Marquardt > wrote: > > |!On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:41:53 +0000, you wrote: > |! > |!>I am duly subdued for not having *in your opinion* *your* favourite > word > |!>processor. **NOT** > |! > |!How many word processors should be supported? I added a print format > which allows easy printing of the booklet on many > |!OSes, I added an open format as the source for the booklet. > > Non! > > What is required is that the leaflet for the CDROM is distributed in an > industry standard graphics format for the graphics so that **anyone** with > any software on **any** computer hardware can use it. I do that for my > commercial CDROMS. > > Remember we are working for Project Gutenberg which insists that texts are > available in *plain text* which can be read on any computer > > |!>I have enough junk on my computer. > |! > |!Obviously. > |! > |!>"CD Inlay and Booklet Gray" does not exist on the CDROM as a tif gif > or > |!>jpeg file > |! > |!Adding it as jpeg image does not make sense at all. Jpeg, Tif and Gif do > not carry enough information to allow accurate > |!dimensions when printing. Print it and it does not fit the jewelbox. > > No graphics package is perfect but all the above are perfectly adequate > for a simple small leaflet. tif, gif and jpeg files will produce a > result. > > |!>You are clearly more intent on forcing your choice of software on > others, > |!>than allowing others to duplicate your work. > |! > |!Huh? PDF for accurate printing > > No! unfortunately the size differs dependant on the paper used > > |Open format for the booklet. The rest images, because CD printing > programs follow no > |!standard. BTW i asked for critisism on gutvol-d, but never got any > answer. > > I have a dial up line and downloading a full CDROM is painful if not > impossible. > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFF/DYgI7J99hVZuJcRA0CvAJ4xDcICRcl+N0D4LS66G9xSrpuo3ACgtSsM TPXX2IrqpzkK+6R/J7i0Fsw= =1tkG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From marcello at perathoner.de Sat Mar 17 11:55:05 2007 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:55:05 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF CDROM In-Reply-To: References: <3d82v25jnom7pan425hr9k6k9knkt5solr@4ax.com> <1mc3v2pl6qjn0ri4b0lnk6o4j05qlg3mul@4ax.com> <9kdgv29bg3fm992qslegi1ktojrid40lrv@4ax.com> <0pegv2lm5a87fhmo169h4kjv9n5d4shr1h@4ax.com> <78mkv2ld6mhmkndk37nbel0vvfoi4au6cc@4ax.com> Message-ID: <45FC3989.7070908@perathoner.de> Dave Fawthrop wrote: > Printing the booklet failed completely because it is only available as pdf, > and odt. Pdf prints different sizes depending on the paper used, and is > completely wrong for the commercial Jewel case inserts which I use. .odt I > do not have on my machine. > > It is totally necessary if this CD is to realise its potential that Gif, > tif or jpg versions of the various components of "CD Inlay and Booklet > Color" be added to the CD If your printer driver does not scale postscript correctly, the chances it will scale jpg correctly are virtually nil. Postscript is a professional page description language which will render in full resolution on any output device, while jpg and friends will produce ugly scaling artifacts on every device with a different resolution than the one used to render the image. I suggest you fire up acrobat reader, set "Print Setup" | "Scale" to 100% and then untick "Expand small pages to paper size" in the Print dialog. That should do the trick. Otherwise you should reinstall your printer drivers. This is so simple a thing even a Windows system should be able to do it correctly. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Sat Mar 17 12:33:50 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:33:50 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] duplicate filenames Message-ID: j. michael said: > 8agin10.zip: etext00 etext04 > > 1ws5010.txt: etext03 etext99 > 1ws5010.zip: etext03 etext99 > > 1ws5110.txt: etext03 etext99 > 1ws5110.zip: etext03 etext99 > > 7gs1710.txt: etext04 etext05 > 7gs1710.zip: etext04 etext05 > > 8dame10.txt: etext00 etext05 > 8dame10.zip: etext00 etext05 > > 8gs1710.txt: etext04 etext05 > 8gs1710.zip: etext04 etext05 > > 8mede10.txt: etext02 etext05 > 8mede10.zip: etext02 etext05 > > 8rome10.txt: etext04 etext06 > 8rome10.zip: etext04 etext06 > > conam10.txt: etext04 etext95 > conam10.zip: etext04 etext95 > > gltrv10.txt: etext03 etext97 > gltrv10.zip: etext03 etext97 > > ldchn10.txt: etext02 etext99 > ldchn10.zip: etext02 etext99 > > ltpln10.txt: etext01 etext02 > ltpln10.zip: etext01 etext02 > > magi10.txt: etext05 etext92 > magi10.zip: etext05 etext92 > > marbo10.txt: etext00 etext01 > marbo10.zip: etext00 etext01 > marbo10r.zip: etext00 etext01 > > marie10.txt: etext02 etext99 > marie10.zip: etext02 etext99 > > mothr10.txt: etext03 etext98 > mothr10.zip: etext03 etext98 > > wldfl10.txt: etext02 etext97 > wldfl10.zip: etext02 etext97 thank you very much, michael. i had no idea the problem was so prevalent... -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070317/c8d800b7/attachment.htm From greg at durendal.org Sat Mar 17 12:17:30 2007 From: greg at durendal.org (Greg Weeks) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF CDROM In-Reply-To: References: <3d82v25jnom7pan425hr9k6k9knkt5solr@4ax.com> <1mc3v2pl6qjn0ri4b0lnk6o4j05qlg3mul@4ax.com> <9kdgv29bg3fm992qslegi1ktojrid40lrv@4ax.com> <0pegv2lm5a87fhmo169h4kjv9n5d4shr1h@4ax.com> <78mkv2ld6mhmkndk37nbel0vvfoi4au6cc@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Mar 2007, Dave Fawthrop wrote: > Printing the booklet failed completely because it is only available as pdf, > and odt. Pdf prints different sizes depending on the paper used, and is > completely wrong for the commercial Jewel case inserts which I use. .odt I > do not have on my machine. There's free software to edit and export the .odt to whatever format you want to use. That's how the .pdf was created. It's about the only format that has free software available. I really wouldn't want to do it in Framemaker or Acrobat as most people wouldn't be able to use it. -- Greg Weeks http://durendal.org:8080/greg/ From desrod at gnu-designs.com Sat Mar 17 13:05:18 2007 From: desrod at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 16:05:18 -0400 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF CDROM In-Reply-To: References: <3d82v25jnom7pan425hr9k6k9knkt5solr@4ax.com> <1mc3v2pl6qjn0ri4b0lnk6o4j05qlg3mul@4ax.com> <9kdgv29bg3fm992qslegi1ktojrid40lrv@4ax.com> <0pegv2lm5a87fhmo169h4kjv9n5d4shr1h@4ax.com> <78mkv2ld6mhmkndk37nbel0vvfoi4au6cc@4ax.com> Message-ID: <1174161918.10220.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2007-03-17 at 15:17 -0400, Greg Weeks wrote: > > There's free software to edit and export the .odt to whatever format > you want to use. That's how the .pdf was created. It's about the only > format that has free software available. I really wouldn't want to do > it in Framemaker or Acrobat as most people wouldn't be able to use it. Load the .odt into OpenOffice.org -> Export to PDF -- David A. Desrosiers desrod at gnu-designs.com Skype username: setuid http://gnu-designs.com ?Strive to silence the voices that oppose you." From sly at victoria.tc.ca Sat Mar 17 13:29:10 2007 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [gutvol-d] Bibliographic info has been munged In-Reply-To: <1e8e65080703171035l6795d7f5q7d6dccfb2aeeac3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e8e65080703171035l6795d7f5q7d6dccfb2aeeac3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Mar 2007, Karen Lofstrom wrote: > I was the post-processor of ebook number 13603, The Romance of > Laieikawai, which I'm fairly sure was submitted to PG in two parts, as > an English-language critical apparatus by Martha Beckwith and a > Hawaiian text by S. Haleole. Someone has combined the two texts (which > is fine) but has stripped all mention of the two authors and of the > fact that there's a Hawaiian text there. The book is now credited to > Anonymous and the Gutenberg interface doesn't mention the Hawaiian > language at all. I've just edited the PG catalog database to include the name Beckwith, Martha Warren, 1871-1959, as found in the LoC. > I don't know who did this. I'm sure it was well-intentioned, but it > renders the book completely unfindable. Someone please fix it. > > This is why we need a proper library and librarian. Mention should > also be made of the BAE (Bureau of American Ethnology) report from > which this originally comes. I would _love_ to have a "proper library and librarian". But there is not. Do you know of some professional librarian who would like to volunteer 40 hours a week for a few years, which might be enough to get a decent start on what we have, as long you're not trying to keep up with newly posted texts as well. > I've also discovered that typing "Hawai'i" into the advanced search > subject box brings up one book, when in fact there are a fair number > of PG texts relating to Hawai'i, including the Romance. I'm fairly > sure that there used to be more hits when one typed "Hawai'i". Just > what the heck is happening? Well, first of all, you have to realize that the "PG catalog" is not something that would be accepted by any "real librarian" as valid bibliographic data. It is, to be honest, a kludge thrown together by a computer programmer, who does not really get cataloging. Over the years, anyone who has tried to really tackle the PG catalog has given up in frustration. The only way I've avoided that is by trying not to let myself take it too seriously. And yes, "findability" is something that is sadly lacking. Last year I took a fair amount of effort to set up an open categorization system which could provide some kind interface where people could at least group together things there were interested in. That was vetoed as not possible, and instead we have the so-called "bookshelf" pages which I'm not very satisfied with. Andrew From sly at victoria.tc.ca Sat Mar 17 13:45:46 2007 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [gutvol-d] Bibliographic info has been munged In-Reply-To: <1e8e65080703171035l6795d7f5q7d6dccfb2aeeac3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e8e65080703171035l6795d7f5q7d6dccfb2aeeac3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Apologies for my tone in my previous message. I did not mean to sent it to the gutvol-d list. Andrew From Bowerbird at aol.com Sat Mar 17 14:01:40 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:01:40 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] Bibliographic info has been munged Message-ID: andrew said: > Apologies for my tone in my previous message. > I did not mean to sent it to the gutvol-d list. i thought your "tone" was fine, matter-of-fact and honest and to-the-point. it's refreshing when people speak frankly, and don't feel a need to sugar-coat things (on the one hand) or engage in ad hominem smears (on the other). -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070317/9f12584a/attachment.htm From klofstrom at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 14:15:38 2007 From: klofstrom at gmail.com (Karen Lofstrom) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:15:38 -1000 Subject: [gutvol-d] Open source library Message-ID: <1e8e65080703171415s6662cd56hca3b1104907d6f12@mail.gmail.com> I attended a librarian-archivist conference on Thursday and Friday. I may be working with the University of the South Pacific to develop a streamlined standard bookshelf that they can burn to CD and distribute to branch libraries in various Pacific nations. (I volunteered, so this isn't a paid job. Alas.) I think they wouldn't want the whole uncatalogued mishmash -- they need structure. While at the conference, several librarians mentioned a program called Greenstone. It's an OPEN SOURCE online library program that is being successfully used by numerous libraries and institutions. Here's a description: a fact sheet: and here's the source code: I'm wondering if I can slot selected PG texts into a Greenstone structure. Would anyone be willing to work with me on this limited project? Is anyone interested in moving the PG collection into Greenstone? The more I read about Greenstone, the more I'm excited. We don't have to build anything from scratch; it's already there. -- Karen Lofstrom From Bowerbird at aol.com Sat Mar 17 14:31:02 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:31:02 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] Open source library Message-ID: karen said: > I'm wondering if I can slot selected PG texts into a Greenstone structure. > Would anyone be willing to work with me on this limited project? > Is anyone interested in moving the PG collection into Greenstone? the greenstone people already did this once upon a time. you might want to ask why they abandoned their efforts... > The more I read about Greenstone, the more I'm excited. hype is an amazing thing, isn't it, if you really believe in it... > We don't have to build anything from scratch; it's already there. maybe. maybe not. -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070317/62444d1d/attachment.htm From klofstrom at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 15:00:11 2007 From: klofstrom at gmail.com (Karen Lofstrom) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:00:11 -1000 Subject: [gutvol-d] More on open source library software Message-ID: <1e8e65080703171500y4ecdd2e3qe3afe37cca96575f@mail.gmail.com> Here's a review article and discussion of how to make D-Space and Greenstone work together. Interesting! NOW I understand why Dorothea Salo, in Caveat Lector, was talking about D-Space (she was running a University Depository). I should have explored further. -- Karen Lofstrom From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sun Mar 18 02:24:26 2007 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 02:24:26 -0700 Subject: [gutvol-d] Video on healthy open online communities Message-ID: <20070318092426.GA29123@mail.pglaf.org> This came up in slashdot a week or so ago, and I just took 54 minutes to watch it: ||http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/12/1449201&from=rss || ||"Two Subversion developers talk at google about how to keep pests and ||malcontents out of your open source projects. From the abstract: ||"Every open source project runs into people who are selfish, ||uncooperative, and disrespectful. These people can silently poison ||the atmosphere of a happy developer community. Come learn how to ||identify these people and peacefully de-fuse them before they derail ||your project. Told through a series of (often amusing) real-life ||anecdotes and experiences"" || ||Video here: http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 || This video is partially about open source development, but mostly about online collaborative communities. I think it has some nice advice for organizations like PG. The PG communities (gutvol-d, the DP forums, and a few other places) have a lot of overlap with open source development communities. -- Greg From sly at victoria.tc.ca Sun Mar 18 07:18:49 2007 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 07:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [gutvol-d] PG mentioned In-Reply-To: <1e8e65080703171415s6662cd56hca3b1104907d6f12@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e8e65080703171415s6662cd56hca3b1104907d6f12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In the group alt.gothic, under the subject heading "The Rule of Fifty" I found the following recent exchange regarding PG: >>> How about 50 books downloaded from Gutenberg? >> Too slow of a connection; I imagine they're PDF files. It's agony waiting for a 4 page newsletter to download; I don't want to think about 250 pages of classic something. > You imagine incorrectly. Project Gutenberk etexts are available in > plain text format. E.E. Smith's _Triplanetary_ is 138 KB compressed, > 356 uncompressed. Downloads in a few minutes on dialup. In fact, that is one of the delightful things about it: no proprietary formats, lots of ways to read, as close to being as simple as a paper book as possible, and easily-accessible. And LOTS of good choices available. There's not much like that these days. Andrew From hart at pglaf.org Sun Mar 18 11:42:44 2007 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [gutvol-d] Video on healthy open online communities In-Reply-To: <20070318092426.GA29123@mail.pglaf.org> References: <20070318092426.GA29123@mail.pglaf.org> Message-ID: Downloading. . . . On Sun, 18 Mar 2007, Greg Newby wrote: > This came up in slashdot a week or so ago, and I just > took 54 minutes to watch it: > > ||http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/12/1449201&from=rss > || > ||"Two Subversion developers talk at google about how to keep pests and > ||malcontents out of your open source projects. From the abstract: > ||"Every open source project runs into people who are selfish, > ||uncooperative, and disrespectful. These people can silently poison > ||the atmosphere of a happy developer community. Come learn how to > ||identify these people and peacefully de-fuse them before they derail > ||your project. Told through a series of (often amusing) real-life > ||anecdotes and experiences"" > || > ||Video here: http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 > || > > > This video is partially about open source development, but > mostly about online collaborative communities. I think > it has some nice advice for organizations like PG. > > The PG communities (gutvol-d, the DP forums, and a few other > places) have a lot of overlap with open source development > communities. > -- Greg > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From phil at thalasson.com Sun Mar 18 20:08:03 2007 From: phil at thalasson.com (Philip Baker) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 03:08:03 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] hacker-david and wget In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2K7FABAT6f$FFwh6@thalasson.com> In article , Bowerbird at aol.com writes >also, there is one filename that is duplicated >in the library. does anyone know what it is? >there is also one _book_ that is duplicated, >under two filenames. anyone know that one? >i have the info somewhere, but can't find it... I have the following list which also includes apparently misplaced files that have names based on the new naming system. As regards duplication of content I can't say. 1/0/0/1/10018/10018-h.zip 1/0/0/1/10018/10018-h/10018-h.zip 1/0/5/5/10553/10553-h.htm 1/0/5/5/10553/10553-h/10553-h.htm 1/5/5/7/15573-h/15573-h.html 1/5/5/7/15573/15573-h/15573-h.html 1/5/5/7/15573/15573-tei.tei 1/5/5/7/15573/15573-tei/15573-tei.tei 1/5/6/9/15697-h/15697-h.html 1/5/6/9/15697/15697-h/15697-h.html 1/5/6/9/15697/15697-tei.tei 1/5/6/9/15697/15697-tei/15697-tei.tei 1/5/7/7/15775-h/15775-h.html 1/5/7/7/15775/15775-h/15775-h.html 1/5/7/7/15775/15775-tei.tei 1/5/7/7/15775/15775-tei/15775-tei.tei 1/6/9/8/16985/16985-tei.zip 1/6/9/8/16985/16985-tei/16985-tei.zip 1/7/4/6/17469/17469-8.txt 1/7/4/6/17469/17469/17469-8.txt 1/7/4/6/17469/17469-8.zip 1/7/4/6/17469/17469/17469-8.zip 1/7/4/6/17469/17469-h/17469-h.htm 1/7/4/6/17469/17469/17469-h/17469-h.htm 1/7/4/6/17469/17469-h.zip 1/7/4/6/17469/17469/17469-h.zip 1/7/4/6/17469/17469.txt 1/7/4/6/17469/17469/17469.txt 1/7/4/6/17469/17469.zip 1/7/4/6/17469/17469/17469.zip 1/0/4/2/19424/19424-8.txt 1/9/4/2/19424/19424-8.txt 1/0/4/2/19424/19424-8.zip 1/9/4/2/19424/19424-8.zip 1/0/4/2/19424/19424-h/19424-h.htm 1/9/4/2/19424/19424-h/19424-h.htm 1/0/4/2/19424/19424-h.zip 1/9/4/2/19424/19424-h.zip 1/0/4/2/19424/19424.txt 1/9/4/2/19424/19424.txt 1/0/4/2/19424/19424.zip 1/9/4/2/19424/19424.zip etext03/1ws5010.txt etext99/1ws5010.txt etext03/1ws5010.zip etext99/1ws5010.zip etext03/1ws5110.txt etext99/1ws5110.txt etext03/1ws5110.zip etext99/1ws5110.zip 3/6/364/364-h.htm 3/6/364/364-h/364-h.htm 3/8/1/3824-h/3824-h.zip 3/8/2/3824/3824-h.zip 3/8/1/3824-h/3824.txt 3/8/2/3824/3824.txt 3/8/1/3824-h/3824.zip 3/8/2/3824/3824.zip 7/4/5/7451/7541-h/7541-h.htm 7/5/4/7541/7541-h/7541-h.htm etext00/7agin10.txt etext04/7agin10.txt etext00/7agin10.zip etext04/7agin10.zip etext04/7gs1710.txt etext05/7gs1710.txt etext04/7gs1710.zip etext05/7gs1710.zip etext00/8agin10.txt etext04/8agin10.txt etext00/8agin10.zip etext04/8agin10.zip etext00/8dame10.txt etext05/8dame10.txt etext00/8dame10.zip etext05/8dame10.zip etext04/8gs1710.txt etext05/8gs1710.txt etext04/8gs1710.zip etext05/8gs1710.zip etext02/8mede10.txt etext05/8mede10.txt etext02/8mede10.zip etext05/8mede10.zip etext04/8rome10.txt etext06/8rome10.txt etext04/8rome10.zip etext06/8rome10.zip etext04/conam10.txt etext95/conam10.txt etext04/conam10.zip etext95/conam10.zip etext03/gltrv10.txt etext97/gltrv10.txt etext03/gltrv10.zip etext97/gltrv10.zip etext02/ldchn10.txt etext99/ldchn10.txt etext02/ldchn10.zip etext99/ldchn10.zip etext01/ltpln10.txt etext02/ltpln10.txt etext01/ltpln10.zip etext02/ltpln10.zip etext03/lv18110.zip etext04/lv18110.zip etext03/lv18111.zip etext04/lv18111.zip etext03/lv18111x.zip etext04/lv18111x.zip etext05/magi10.txt etext92/magi10.txt etext05/magi10.zip etext92/magi10.zip etext00/marbo10.txt etext01/marbo10.txt etext00/marbo10.zip etext01/marbo10.zip etext00/marbo10r.zip etext01/marbo10r.zip etext02/marie10.txt etext99/marie10.txt etext02/marie10.zip etext99/marie10.zip etext03/mothr10.txt etext98/mothr10.txt etext03/mothr10.zip etext98/mothr10.zip etext02/wldfl10.txt etext97/wldfl10.txt etext02/wldfl10.zip etext97/wldfl10.zip -- Philip Baker From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Mar 19 05:28:14 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:28:14 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] hacker-david and wget Message-ID: phil, i'll have a look at your list later, thanks a lot for making it. -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070319/9f20d8bc/attachment.htm From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Thu Mar 22 00:18:43 2007 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:18:43 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. Message-ID: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> I advertised this disk on uk.media.books.sf with an offer of a totally free copy of the disk including postage in the UK. A follow up is given below As I am in the UK and Robert Marquardt is in Germany, this is worth thinking about. I am taking a very small risk by offering a copy in the UK. Any comments? -- Dave Fawthrop 165 *Free* SF ebooks. 165 Sci Fi books on CDROM, from Project Gutenberg http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page Completely Free to any address in the UK. Contact me on the *above* email address. |!While this is all OK in America, where Project Gutenberg are based, you |!really ought to be aware that British copyright law is VERY different, |!and that a lot of the stuff on this disk is still covered by it. |! |!In message , Dave Fawthrop |! writes |!>I am able to offer a CDROM containing 165 out of copyright SF e-books |!>Completely Free including postage to any address in the UK. These are from |!>Project Gutenberg http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page who can also |!>offer 20,000 completely free books of various genre. |!>Contact me on . |!> |!> |!>Yes totally free no strings attached :-) |!>Bone, Jesse F. (Jesse Franklin), 1916-1986 |!>The Lani People (English) |! |!Is not out of UK copyright. |! |!> |!>Bradley, Marion Zimmer, 1930-1999 |!>The Door Through Space (English) |!> |! |!Is not out of UK copyright. |! |! |!>Burroughs, Edgar Rice, 1875-1950 |!>A Princess of Mars (English) |!>Gods of Mars (English) |!>Warlord of Mars (English) |!>Thuvia, Maid of Mars (English) |!>The Chessmen of Mars (English) |!>Pellucidar (English) |!>At the Earth's Core (English) |!>At the Earth's Core (English) |!>The Land That Time Forgot (English) |!>People out of Time (English) |!>Out of Time's Abyss (English) |!>The Lost Continent (English) |!>The Monster Men (English) |!>The Outlaw of Torn (English) |!> |!>Campbell, John W. (Wood), 1910-1971 |!>The Black Star Passes (English) |!>Invaders from the Infinite (English) |!> |!Are not out of UK copyright. |! |! |!>Capek, Karel, 1890-1938 |!>R.U.R. (Czech) |! |!Is not out of UK copyright. |!> |!>Carr, Terry Gene, 1937-1987 |!>Warlord of Kor (English) |! |!Is not out of UK copyright. |! |!> |!>Cummings, Ray, 1887-1957 |!>Brigands of the Moon (English) |!>The White Invaders (English) |! |!Are not out of UK copyright. |! |!> |!>Del Rey, Lester, 1915-1993 |!>Badge of Infamy (English) |!>Police Your Planet (English) |!>The Sky Is Falling (English) |! |!Are not out of UK copyright. |!> |!>Doctorow, Cory |!>Craphound (English) |!>Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom (English) |!>Eastern Standard Tribe (English) |!>Home Again, Home Again (English) |!>A Place so Foreign (English) |!>Printcrime (English) |!>Return to Pleasure Island (English) |!>Shadow of the Mothaship (English) |!>Someone Comes to Town, |!>Someone Leaves Town (English) |!>Super Man and the Bug Out (English) |!> |!> |!>Goodwin, Harold Leland, 1914-1990 |!>Rip Foster in Ride the Gray Planet (English) |!>Rip Foster Rides the Gray Planet (English) |!> |!Unless these have been released into the public domain by the authors |!they're not out of UK copyright. |! |!>Hyne, Charles John Cutcliffe Wright, |!>1866-1944 |!>The Lost Continent (English) |!> |!Not out of UK copyright. |! |!>Leinster, Murray, [pseud.], |!>(Jenkins, William Fitzgerald), 1896-1975 |!>Operation: Outer Space (English) |!>Operation Terror (English) |!>The Runaway Skyscraper (English) |!>Space Tug (English) |!>This World Is Taboo (English) |!> |!Not out of UK copyright. |! |! |!>Lindsay, David, 1876-1945 |!>A Voyage to Arcturus (English) |!> |! |!>Merritt, Abraham, 1884-1943 |!>The Metal Monster (English) |!>The Moon Pool (English) |!> |!Not out of UK copyright. |! |!>Norton, Andre, 1912-2005 |!>The Gifts of Asti (English) |!>Key Out of Time (English) |!>Plague Ship (English) |!>Ralestone Luck (English) |!>Star Born (English) |!>Star Hunter (English) |!>The Time Traders (English) |!>Voodoo Planet (English) |!> |!>Nourse, Alan E., 1928-1992 |!>Star Surgeon (English) |!> |!>Piper, H. Beam, 1904-1964 |!>The Edge of the Knife (English) |!>Omnilingual (English) |!>Four-Day Planet (English) |!>Uller Uprising (English) |!>Ullr Uprising (English) |!>Naudsonce (English) |!>Little Fuzzy (English) |!>Oomphel in the Sky (English) |!>Graveyard of Dreams (English) |!>The Cosmic Computer (English) |!>Space Viking (English) |!>A Slave is a Slave (English) |!>Ministry of Disturbance (English) |!>The Keeper (English) |!>Genesis (English) |!>He Walked Around the Horses (English) |!>Last Enemy (English) |!>Police Operation (English) |!>Temple Trouble (English) |!>Time Crime (English) |!>The Answer (English) |!>Crossroads of Destiny (English) |!>Day of the Moron (English) |!>Dearest (English) |!>Flight From Tomorrow (English) |!>Hunter Patrol (English) |!>Lone Star Planet (English) |!>The Mercenaries (English) |!>Null-ABC (English) |!>Operation R.S.V.P. (English) |!>The Return (English) |!>The Return (English) |!>Time and Time Again (English) |!>A Catalog of Early Pennsylvania and other |!>Firearms and Edged Weapons at 'Restless Oaks' |!>McElhattan, PA (English) |!>Murder in the Gunroom (English) |!>Rebel Raider (English) |!> |! |!Not out of UK copyright. |! |! |! |!>Raphael, Rick |!>Code Three (English) |!> |!Not out of UK copyright. |! |!>Sheckley, Robert, 1928-2005 |!>Bad Medicine (English) |!> |!Not out of UK copyright. |! |! |!>Smith, George Oliver, 1911-1981 |!>The Fourth R (English) |!>Highways in Hiding (English) |!>Stop Look and Dig (English) |!> |! |!Not out of UK copyright. |! |!Ditto all of the HG Wells titles. |!-- |!Marcus L. Rowland http://www.forgottenfutures.com/ |!LJ:ffutures http://homepage.ntlworld.com/forgottenfutures/ |! Forgotten Futures - The Scientific Romance Role Playing Game |! Diana: Warrior Princess & Elvis: The Legendary Tours |! The Original Flatland Role Playing Game From schultzk at uni-trier.de Thu Mar 22 01:40:32 2007 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Schultz Keith J.) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:40:32 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> Message-ID: This is a very interesting case. 1) You offer it for free !!!!!!! 2) You do infringe of copyrights. Since you offer it for free you are not making money. In a sense you may cause damges if and only if the books are in print. That all said courts tend to consider this a minor offense and a fine if any will be punitive. It also depends on how many copies you have distributed. Another interesting fact is where your server is located. Eventhough you may be based in the UK if your "service" runs over machines in the States the US law applies. Just some thoughts Keith. P.S. The same goes for illegal copies of software. It always depends on Howmany copies you have distributed. Keith. Am 22.03.2007 um 08:18 schrieb Dave Fawthrop: > I advertised this disk on uk.media.books.sf with an offer of a > totally free > copy of the disk including postage in the UK. > > A follow up is given below > > As I am in the UK and Robert Marquardt > is in > Germany, this is worth thinking about. > > I am taking a very small risk by offering a copy in the UK. > > Any comments? > > -- > Dave Fawthrop 165 *Free* SF ebooks. > 165 Sci Fi books on CDROM, from Project Gutenberg > http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page Completely Free to any > address in the UK. Contact me on the *above* email address. > > > |!While this is all OK in America, where Project Gutenberg are > based, you > |!really ought to be aware that British copyright law is VERY > different, > |!and that a lot of the stuff on this disk is still covered by it. > |! > |!In message , Dave > Fawthrop > |! writes > |!>I am able to offer a CDROM containing 165 out of copyright SF e- > books > |!>Completely Free including postage to any address in the UK. > These are from > |!>Project Gutenberg http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page who > can also > |!>offer 20,000 completely free books of various genre. > |!>Contact me on . > |!> > |!> > |!>Yes totally free no strings attached :-) > |!>Bone, Jesse F. (Jesse Franklin), 1916-1986 > |!>The Lani People (English) > |! > |!Is not out of UK copyright. > |! > |!> > |!>Bradley, Marion Zimmer, 1930-1999 > |!>The Door Through Space (English) > |!> > |! > |!Is not out of UK copyright. > |! > |! > |!>Burroughs, Edgar Rice, 1875-1950 > |!>A Princess of Mars (English) > |!>Gods of Mars (English) > |!>Warlord of Mars (English) > |!>Thuvia, Maid of Mars (English) > |!>The Chessmen of Mars (English) > |!>Pellucidar (English) > |!>At the Earth's Core (English) > |!>At the Earth's Core (English) > |!>The Land That Time Forgot (English) > |!>People out of Time (English) > |!>Out of Time's Abyss (English) > |!>The Lost Continent (English) > |!>The Monster Men (English) > |!>The Outlaw of Torn (English) > |!> > |!>Campbell, John W. (Wood), 1910-1971 > |!>The Black Star Passes (English) > |!>Invaders from the Infinite (English) > |!> > |!Are not out of UK copyright. > |! > |! > |!>Capek, Karel, 1890-1938 > |!>R.U.R. (Czech) > |! > |!Is not out of UK copyright. > |!> > |!>Carr, Terry Gene, 1937-1987 > |!>Warlord of Kor (English) > |! > |!Is not out of UK copyright. > |! > |!> > |!>Cummings, Ray, 1887-1957 > |!>Brigands of the Moon (English) > |!>The White Invaders (English) > |! > |!Are not out of UK copyright. > |! > |!> > |!>Del Rey, Lester, 1915-1993 > |!>Badge of Infamy (English) > |!>Police Your Planet (English) > |!>The Sky Is Falling (English) > |! > |!Are not out of UK copyright. > |!> > |!>Doctorow, Cory > |!>Craphound (English) > |!>Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom (English) > |!>Eastern Standard Tribe (English) > |!>Home Again, Home Again (English) > |!>A Place so Foreign (English) > |!>Printcrime (English) > |!>Return to Pleasure Island (English) > |!>Shadow of the Mothaship (English) > |!>Someone Comes to Town, > |!>Someone Leaves Town (English) > |!>Super Man and the Bug Out (English) > |!> > |!> > |!>Goodwin, Harold Leland, 1914-1990 > |!>Rip Foster in Ride the Gray Planet (English) > |!>Rip Foster Rides the Gray Planet (English) > |!> > |!Unless these have been released into the public domain by the > authors > |!they're not out of UK copyright. > |! > |!>Hyne, Charles John Cutcliffe Wright, > |!>1866-1944 > |!>The Lost Continent (English) > |!> > |!Not out of UK copyright. > |! > |!>Leinster, Murray, [pseud.], > |!>(Jenkins, William Fitzgerald), 1896-1975 > |!>Operation: Outer Space (English) > |!>Operation Terror (English) > |!>The Runaway Skyscraper (English) > |!>Space Tug (English) > |!>This World Is Taboo (English) > |!> > |!Not out of UK copyright. > |! > |! > |!>Lindsay, David, 1876-1945 > |!>A Voyage to Arcturus (English) > |!> > |! > |!>Merritt, Abraham, 1884-1943 > |!>The Metal Monster (English) > |!>The Moon Pool (English) > |!> > |!Not out of UK copyright. > |! > |!>Norton, Andre, 1912-2005 > |!>The Gifts of Asti (English) > |!>Key Out of Time (English) > |!>Plague Ship (English) > |!>Ralestone Luck (English) > |!>Star Born (English) > |!>Star Hunter (English) > |!>The Time Traders (English) > |!>Voodoo Planet (English) > |!> > |!>Nourse, Alan E., 1928-1992 > |!>Star Surgeon (English) > |!> > |!>Piper, H. Beam, 1904-1964 > |!>The Edge of the Knife (English) > |!>Omnilingual (English) > |!>Four-Day Planet (English) > |!>Uller Uprising (English) > |!>Ullr Uprising (English) > |!>Naudsonce (English) > |!>Little Fuzzy (English) > |!>Oomphel in the Sky (English) > |!>Graveyard of Dreams (English) > |!>The Cosmic Computer (English) > |!>Space Viking (English) > |!>A Slave is a Slave (English) > |!>Ministry of Disturbance (English) > |!>The Keeper (English) > |!>Genesis (English) > |!>He Walked Around the Horses (English) > |!>Last Enemy (English) > |!>Police Operation (English) > |!>Temple Trouble (English) > |!>Time Crime (English) > |!>The Answer (English) > |!>Crossroads of Destiny (English) > |!>Day of the Moron (English) > |!>Dearest (English) > |!>Flight From Tomorrow (English) > |!>Hunter Patrol (English) > |!>Lone Star Planet (English) > |!>The Mercenaries (English) > |!>Null-ABC (English) > |!>Operation R.S.V.P. (English) > |!>The Return (English) > |!>The Return (English) > |!>Time and Time Again (English) > |!>A Catalog of Early Pennsylvania and other > |!>Firearms and Edged Weapons at 'Restless Oaks' > |!>McElhattan, PA (English) > |!>Murder in the Gunroom (English) > |!>Rebel Raider (English) > |!> > |! > |!Not out of UK copyright. > |! > |! > |! > |!>Raphael, Rick > |!>Code Three (English) > |!> > |!Not out of UK copyright. > |! > |!>Sheckley, Robert, 1928-2005 > |!>Bad Medicine (English) > |!> > |!Not out of UK copyright. > |! > |! > |!>Smith, George Oliver, 1911-1981 > |!>The Fourth R (English) > |!>Highways in Hiding (English) > |!>Stop Look and Dig (English) > |!> > |! > |!Not out of UK copyright. > |! > |!Ditto all of the HG Wells titles. > |!-- > |!Marcus L. Rowland http://www.forgottenfutures.com/ > |!LJ:ffutures http://homepage.ntlworld.com/forgottenfutures/ > |! Forgotten Futures - The Scientific Romance Role Playing Game > |! Diana: Warrior Princess & Elvis: The Legendary Tours > |! The Original Flatland Role Playing Game > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From schultzk at uni-trier.de Thu Mar 22 01:43:35 2007 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Schultz Keith J.) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:43:35 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> Message-ID: <16ADDE83-770F-4144-A5F2-2AA083630E2D@uni-trier.de> A small follow-up. Since actually anybody can get the CD from the states him/herself, probably nothing will happen or if it does it can be easily be thrown out of court by a good lawyer. There have been similar cases here in germany, but then again Germany is not UK. Keith. Am 22.03.2007 um 08:18 schrieb Dave Fawthrop: > I advertised this disk on uk.media.books.sf with an offer of a > totally free > copy of the disk including postage in the UK. > > A follow up is given below > > As I am in the UK and Robert Marquardt > is in > Germany, this is worth thinking about. > > I am taking a very small risk by offering a copy in the UK. > > Any comments? > > -- > Dave Fawthrop 165 *Free* SF ebooks. > 165 Sci Fi books on CDROM, from Project Gutenberg > http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page Completely Free to any > address in the UK. Contact me on the *above* email address. > > > |!While this is all OK in America, where Project Gutenberg are > based, you > |!really ought to be aware that British copyright law is VERY > different, > |!and that a lot of the stuff on this disk is still covered by it. > |! > |!In message , Dave > Fawthrop > |! writes > |!>I am able to offer a CDROM containing 165 out of copyright SF e- > books > |!>Completely Free including postage to any address in the UK. > These are from > |!>Project Gutenberg http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page who > can also > |!>offer 20,000 completely free books of various genre. > |!>Contact me on . > |!> > |!> > |!>Yes totally free no strings attached :-) > |!>Bone, Jesse F. (Jesse Franklin), 1916-1986 > |!>The Lani People (English) > |! > |!Is not out of UK copyright. > |! > |!> > |!>Bradley, Marion Zimmer, 1930-1999 > |!>The Door Through Space (English) > |!> > |! > |!Is not out of UK copyright. > |! > |! > |!>Burroughs, Edgar Rice, 1875-1950 > |!>A Princess of Mars (English) > |!>Gods of Mars (English) > |!>Warlord of Mars (English) > |!>Thuvia, Maid of Mars (English) > |!>The Chessmen of Mars (English) > |!>Pellucidar (English) > |!>At the Earth's Core (English) > |!>At the Earth's Core (English) > |!>The Land That Time Forgot (English) > |!>People out of Time (English) > |!>Out of Time's Abyss (English) > |!>The Lost Continent (English) > |!>The Monster Men (English) > |!>The Outlaw of Torn (English) > |!> > |!>Campbell, John W. (Wood), 1910-1971 > |!>The Black Star Passes (English) > |!>Invaders from the Infinite (English) > |!> > |!Are not out of UK copyright. > |! > |! > |!>Capek, Karel, 1890-1938 > |!>R.U.R. (Czech) > |! > |!Is not out of UK copyright. > |!> > |!>Carr, Terry Gene, 1937-1987 > |!>Warlord of Kor (English) > |! > |!Is not out of UK copyright. > |! > |!> > |!>Cummings, Ray, 1887-1957 > |!>Brigands of the Moon (English) > |!>The White Invaders (English) > |! > |!Are not out of UK copyright. > |! > |!> > |!>Del Rey, Lester, 1915-1993 > |!>Badge of Infamy (English) > |!>Police Your Planet (English) > |!>The Sky Is Falling (English) > |! > |!Are not out of UK copyright. > |!> > |!>Doctorow, Cory > |!>Craphound (English) > |!>Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom (English) > |!>Eastern Standard Tribe (English) > |!>Home Again, Home Again (English) > |!>A Place so Foreign (English) > |!>Printcrime (English) > |!>Return to Pleasure Island (English) > |!>Shadow of the Mothaship (English) > |!>Someone Comes to Town, > |!>Someone Leaves Town (English) > |!>Super Man and the Bug Out (English) > |!> > |!> > |!>Goodwin, Harold Leland, 1914-1990 > |!>Rip Foster in Ride the Gray Planet (English) > |!>Rip Foster Rides the Gray Planet (English) > |!> > |!Unless these have been released into the public domain by the > authors > |!they're not out of UK copyright. > |! > |!>Hyne, Charles John Cutcliffe Wright, > |!>1866-1944 > |!>The Lost Continent (English) > |!> > |!Not out of UK copyright. > |! > |!>Leinster, Murray, [pseud.], > |!>(Jenkins, William Fitzgerald), 1896-1975 > |!>Operation: Outer Space (English) > |!>Operation Terror (English) > |!>The Runaway Skyscraper (English) > |!>Space Tug (English) > |!>This World Is Taboo (English) > |!> > |!Not out of UK copyright. > |! > |! > |!>Lindsay, David, 1876-1945 > |!>A Voyage to Arcturus (English) > |!> > |! > |!>Merritt, Abraham, 1884-1943 > |!>The Metal Monster (English) > |!>The Moon Pool (English) > |!> > |!Not out of UK copyright. > |! > |!>Norton, Andre, 1912-2005 > |!>The Gifts of Asti (English) > |!>Key Out of Time (English) > |!>Plague Ship (English) > |!>Ralestone Luck (English) > |!>Star Born (English) > |!>Star Hunter (English) > |!>The Time Traders (English) > |!>Voodoo Planet (English) > |!> > |!>Nourse, Alan E., 1928-1992 > |!>Star Surgeon (English) > |!> > |!>Piper, H. Beam, 1904-1964 > |!>The Edge of the Knife (English) > |!>Omnilingual (English) > |!>Four-Day Planet (English) > |!>Uller Uprising (English) > |!>Ullr Uprising (English) > |!>Naudsonce (English) > |!>Little Fuzzy (English) > |!>Oomphel in the Sky (English) > |!>Graveyard of Dreams (English) > |!>The Cosmic Computer (English) > |!>Space Viking (English) > |!>A Slave is a Slave (English) > |!>Ministry of Disturbance (English) > |!>The Keeper (English) > |!>Genesis (English) > |!>He Walked Around the Horses (English) > |!>Last Enemy (English) > |!>Police Operation (English) > |!>Temple Trouble (English) > |!>Time Crime (English) > |!>The Answer (English) > |!>Crossroads of Destiny (English) > |!>Day of the Moron (English) > |!>Dearest (English) > |!>Flight From Tomorrow (English) > |!>Hunter Patrol (English) > |!>Lone Star Planet (English) > |!>The Mercenaries (English) > |!>Null-ABC (English) > |!>Operation R.S.V.P. (English) > |!>The Return (English) > |!>The Return (English) > |!>Time and Time Again (English) > |!>A Catalog of Early Pennsylvania and other > |!>Firearms and Edged Weapons at 'Restless Oaks' > |!>McElhattan, PA (English) > |!>Murder in the Gunroom (English) > |!>Rebel Raider (English) > |!> > |! > |!Not out of UK copyright. > |! > |! > |! > |!>Raphael, Rick > |!>Code Three (English) > |!> > |!Not out of UK copyright. > |! > |!>Sheckley, Robert, 1928-2005 > |!>Bad Medicine (English) > |!> > |!Not out of UK copyright. > |! > |! > |!>Smith, George Oliver, 1911-1981 > |!>The Fourth R (English) > |!>Highways in Hiding (English) > |!>Stop Look and Dig (English) > |!> > |! > |!Not out of UK copyright. > |! > |!Ditto all of the HG Wells titles. > |!-- > |!Marcus L. Rowland http://www.forgottenfutures.com/ > |!LJ:ffutures http://homepage.ntlworld.com/forgottenfutures/ > |! Forgotten Futures - The Scientific Romance Role Playing Game > |! Diana: Warrior Princess & Elvis: The Legendary Tours > |! The Original Flatland Role Playing Game > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu Mar 22 01:50:36 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:50:36 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. Message-ID: dave said: > Any comments? listserve comments mean nothing in legal matters. but hey, what a sad world we live in, eh? -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070322/d8cf5828/attachment.htm From mkengel at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 02:07:11 2007 From: mkengel at gmail.com (Michael Engel) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:07:11 +0900 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> Message-ID: You should read what is written on the main page of US-Gutenberg: http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page "If you don't live in the United States, please check the copyright laws of your country before downloading a book." That says you are not allowed to download a book in copyright. The same requirements apply to anyone who is distributing to outside of US. "Check the copyright laws of the country you are distributing to." Michael From wvholst at xs4all.nl Thu Mar 22 02:50:48 2007 From: wvholst at xs4all.nl (Walter H. van Holst) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:50:48 +0100 (CET) Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> Message-ID: <17853.80.127.124.230.1174557048.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > You should read what is written on the main page of US-Gutenberg: > http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page > > "If you don't live in the United States, please check the copyright > laws of your country before downloading a book." What about adding "and/or redistributing a book"? I happen to live in a jurisdiction where downloading of infringing materials happens to be covered by our equivalent of fair use whereas redistributing is not. Regards, Walter From prosfilaes at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 05:26:10 2007 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:26:10 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> Message-ID: <6d99d1fd0703220526v678126e3o84d579461ea34968@mail.gmail.com> I think a lot of the assertions here are wrong. If I'm not mistaken, the UK has the law of the shorter term, which means that US books that are out of copyright in the US are out of copyright in the UK. (I was deliberately vague in saying US books, but anything first published in the US by an American author should qualify.) So pretty much all of the American authors should be just fine in the UK. Most of the British authors, on the other hand, are still in copyright, and I would be surprised if H. G. Wells' estate didn't have people to catch this. On the very rare chance that it did go to court, the court probably wouldn't be happy that it was willful, informed infringement. Let me note also that at least two of those authors, Robert Sheckley and Cory Doctorow, aren't out of copyright anywhere, but have permitted PG to distribute the files. (Sheckley is worrying, since the PG file doesn't bother mentioning any terms of distribution and could be PG only, but all of Doctorow's stuff should be fine if it's non-commercial.) From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Thu Mar 22 07:06:31 2007 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:06:31 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: <6d99d1fd0703220526v678126e3o84d579461ea34968@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> <6d99d1fd0703220526v678126e3o84d579461ea34968@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <893503t07gpqrjbmfr2oiaim1a2jo7v8rt@4ax.com> On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:26:10 -0500, "David Starner" wrote: |!I think a lot of the assertions here are wrong. If I'm not mistaken, |!the UK has the law of the shorter term, which means that US books that |!are out of copyright in the US are out of copyright in the UK. Should have mentioned the EU is on life+70. -- Dave Fawthrop From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Thu Mar 22 07:07:45 2007 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:07:45 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:07:11 +0900, "Michael Engel" wrote: |!You should read what is written on the main page of US-Gutenberg: |!http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page |! |!"If you don't live in the United States, please check the copyright |!laws of your country before downloading a book." |! |!That says you are not allowed to download a book in copyright. |! |!The same requirements apply to anyone who is distributing to outside |!of US. "Check the copyright laws of the country you are distributing |!to." So would you suggest a USA disc and a life + 70 disk? -- Dave Fawthrop From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Thu Mar 22 07:11:27 2007 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:11:27 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:40:32 +0100, "Schultz Keith J." wrote: |!This is a very interesting case. |! |! 1) You offer it for free !!!!!!! |! 2) You do infringe of copyrights. |! |!Since you offer it for free you are not making money. In a sense |!you may cause damges if and only if the books are in print. |! |!That all said courts tend to consider this a minor offense and |!a fine if any will be punitive. It also depends on how many copies you ^^^^^^^^ Oops wrong word I think ;-) -- Dave Fawthrop From greg at durendal.org Thu Mar 22 09:08:50 2007 From: greg at durendal.org (Greg Weeks) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:08:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Mar 2007, Dave Fawthrop wrote: > So would you suggest a USA disc and a life + 70 disk? The US authored books are out of copyright even in the life+70 countries if the country has a rule of the shorter. -- Greg Weeks http://durendal.org:8080/greg/ From hart at pglaf.org Thu Mar 22 11:24:20 2007 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> Message-ID: Actually, the copyright permission letters we have include the rights for worldwide distribution, so this would only apply to those works done via Greg Newby's "Rule 6" commentaries, etc. In addition, the fines for an "innocent infringer" who thinks those works are OK for redistribution are minimal, and the cost of getting them is into the 6 figure range, and I think it requires the receipt of three "cease and desist" letters. . .but, then again. I am not a lawyer. . .this is NOT a legal opinion or legal advice. IANAL = I am not a lawyer. However, given Project Gutenberg's stellar record on copyright, and the fact that of the dozens of threatening legal nastygrams we have received over the years NONE of them have pursued us to anything near this point, I would keep working in the same vein to insure good copyright research. The truth is that no matter HOW vitriolic the initial letter to us may be, so far NONE of these agencies has done even the tiny amount of copyright research to have a conversation, other than what I term as "just blowing smoke." We do answer all these letters, usually very sweetly, and given our encouragements to study the applicable copyright laws in an elementary manner before replying, they hardly ever reply. I can think of ONE that contacted us twice, nothing more, but I think Greg might be able to recall something else. In all these years and thousands of copyright researches, there has been little more to report on this front. As I said, at least 99% of what we hear is just smoke, no fire, and dissipates easily. I think they just send us boilerplate nastygrams and expect the things to make us roll over, and when we provide an decent, and detailed, reply to their nastygrams, they realize they may have to do a little real work to carry on the conversation. . .which they never seem willing to do. In fact, when I have asked if these nastygrams actually come in the form of communications from a copyright lawyer, not one has said yes. . . . Michael On Thu, 22 Mar 2007, Dave Fawthrop wrote: > On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:07:11 +0900, "Michael Engel" > wrote: > > |!You should read what is written on the main page of US-Gutenberg: > |!http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page > |! > |!"If you don't live in the United States, please check the copyright > |!laws of your country before downloading a book." > |! > |!That says you are not allowed to download a book in copyright. > |! > |!The same requirements apply to anyone who is distributing to outside > |!of US. "Check the copyright laws of the country you are distributing > |!to." > > So would you suggest a USA disc and a life + 70 disk? > -- > Dave Fawthrop > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From ricardofdiogo at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 11:30:51 2007 From: ricardofdiogo at gmail.com (Ricardo F Diogo) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:30:51 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> Message-ID: <9c6138c50703221130n352d53d1lba50b398183d8257@mail.gmail.com> Yes. COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 93/98/EEC of 29 October 1993 applies to EU Member States. ?Article 7 Protection vis-?-vis third countries 1. Where the country of origin of a work, within the meaning of the Berne Convention, is a third country, and the author of the work is not a? [European] ?Community national, the term of protection granted by the Member States shall expire on the date of expiry of the protection granted in the country of origin of the work, but may not exceed the term laid down in Article 1? [70 years]. However, are you sure that all authors in the CD where American? If not, living in the EU and downloading or _uploading_ current PG's CDs and DVDs _can be_ a risk. Unless you personally check if: * all authors died 70+ years ago (in that case, according to EU rules, you're safe) * _or_, if not,: ** where did the author live ** _and_ what copyright terms apply to their country ** _and_ if there isn't a special agreement between your country and the author's. I'd personally recommend all EU nationals not to make such CDs without checking the individual authors' death date or, if they don't, never to identify themselves (specially in PG's wiki). It's like water in a duck's back to PG (because PG only follows US Law) _but not_ to people setting up and _uploading_ such CDs in the EU (even if they come from the US). All we (don't) need is a successor claiming copyright and trying to discover _who_ was the volunteer that uploaded to PG's servers. 2007/3/22, Greg Weeks : > On Thu, 22 Mar 2007, Dave Fawthrop wrote: > > > So would you suggest a USA disc and a life + 70 disk? > > The US authored books are out of copyright even in the life+70 countries > if the country has a rule of the shorter. > > -- > Greg Weeks > http://durendal.org:8080/greg/ > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From brett at dimetrodon.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 22 10:59:53 2007 From: brett at dimetrodon.demon.co.uk (Brett Paul Dunbar) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 17:59:53 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> Message-ID: Greg Weeks writes >On Thu, 22 Mar 2007, Dave Fawthrop wrote: > >> So would you suggest a USA disc and a life + 70 disk? > >The US authored books are out of copyright even in the life+70 countries >if the country has a rule of the shorter. > This can help sometimes, however you have got to watch out for situations where there are multiple countries of first publication. That is where the work was published simultaneously, or near enough to count for the purposes of the legislation (for the UK this is 30 days), in several countries. The regulations for the UK are as follows: Index page Quoted section "Meaning of country of origin. 15A. (1) For the purposes of the provisions of this Part relating to the duration of copyright the country of origin of a work shall be determined as follows. (2) If the work is first published in a Berne Convention country and is not simultaneously published elsewhere, the country of origin is that country. (3) If the work is first published simultaneously in two or more countries only one of which is a Berne Convention country, the country of origin is that country. (4) If the work is first published simultaneously in two or more countries of which two or more are Berne Convention countries, then? (a) if any of those countries is an EEA state, the country of origin is that country; and (b) if none of those countries is an EEA state, the country of origin is the Berne Convention country which grants the shorter or shortest period of copyright protection. (5) If the work is unpublished or is first published in a country which is not a Berne Convention country (and is not simultaneously published in a Berne Convention country), the country of origin is? (a) if the work is a film and the maker of the film has his headquarters in, or is domiciled or resident in a Berne Convention country, that country; (b) if the work is? (i) a work of architecture constructed in a Berne Convention country, or (ii) an artistic work incorporated in a building or other structure situated in a Berne Convention country, that country; (c) in any other case, the country of which the author of the work is a national. (6) In this section? (a) a "Berne Convention country" means a country which is a party to any Act of the International Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works signed at Berne on 9th September 1886; and (b) references to simultaneous publication are to publication within 30 days of first publication.". In summary, the priority list in the event of publication within 30 days is as follows: 1 European Economic Area (EEA) state. The EEA consists of the EU, Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein 2 Shortest term in other Berne Convention country 3 Non Berne Convention country. So if a work by an American was also published within 30 days in any European Economic Area country life + 70 applies. -- Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm Livejournal http://brett-dunbar.livejournal.com/ Brett Paul Dunbar To email me, use reply-to address From walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl Thu Mar 22 12:14:05 2007 From: walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl (Walter van Holst) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 20:14:05 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> Message-ID: <4602D57D.90702@xs4all.nl> Greg Weeks schreef: >> So would you suggest a USA disc and a life + 70 disk? > > The US authored books are out of copyright even in the life+70 countries > if the country has a rule of the shorter. True, however, some EU life+70 countries with the rule of the shorter have exceptions for fellow EU and EFTA members. The Netherlands (where I reside) has a rule of the shorter (Auteurswet 1912, article 42). My layman's understanding of the UK Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 does not appear to have such a rule. Regarding such recurring questions regarding copyright expirations, does anyone know of a web-based, open source, knowledge base tool? It shouldn't be to difficult to put the rules of the various jurisdictions in such a tool and I guess it would be helpful to the clearance people as well. Regards, Walter From jon at noring.name Thu Mar 22 12:29:41 2007 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:29:41 -0600 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> Message-ID: <938061377.20070322132941@noring.name> Michael wrote: > In fact, when I have asked if these nastygrams actually come in > the form of communications from a copyright lawyer, not one has > said yes. . . . Well, IP attorneys are about the highest paid in the legal profession, typically billing at (so I've been told) $250/hour and up. So when someone pushes back at the boilerplate "cease and desist from using MY copyrighted content" letter, usually sent by some underling at the publishing company, the company counts its pennies and determines it's just not worth pursuing. Or, they quickly consult with their attorney who tells them they either don't have a leg to stand on (which is usually the case when dealing with PG era texts), or that it's simply not worth pursuing even if *they believe* they have a case. Jon Noring From hart at pglaf.org Thu Mar 22 12:40:35 2007 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael Hart) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: <4602D57D.90702@xs4all.nl> References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> <4602D57D.90702@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: BTW, I have no objection to a +70 or +50 collection being made on disc, so people could be sure the copies they handed out personally were ok. Michael From ebooks at ibiblio.org Thu Mar 22 14:55:15 2007 From: ebooks at ibiblio.org (Jose Menendez) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:55:15 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> Message-ID: <4602FB43.3030404@ibiblio.org> Dave Fawthrop wrote: > I advertised this disk on uk.media.books.sf with an offer of a totally free > copy of the disk including postage in the UK. > > A follow up is given below > > As I am in the UK and Robert Marquardt is in > Germany, this is worth thinking about. > > I am taking a very small risk by offering a copy in the UK. > > Any comments? Actually, you'd be taking a very large risk. Take a look at this part of section 107 (Criminal liability for making or dealing with infringing articles, &c.) of the U.K.'s Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880048_en_7.htm#mdiv107 -------------------------------------------------- 107.-(1) A person commits an offence who, without the licence of the copyright owner- (a) makes for sale or hire, or (b) imports into the United Kingdom otherwise than for his private and domestic use, or (c) possesses in the course of a business with a view to committing any act infringing the copyright, or (d) in the course of a business - (i) sells or lets for hire, or (ii) offers or exposes for sale or hire, or (iii) exhibits in public, or (iv) distributes, or (e) distributes otherwise than in the course of a business to such an extent as to affect prejudicially the owner of the copyright, an article which is, and which he knows or has reason to believe is, an infringing copy of a copyright work. -------------------------------------------------- Note in particular subsections (1)(b) and (1)(e). Note also that a person doesn't have to know for certain that it's an infringing copy to commit an offence; he only has to have "reason to believe" it is. And what are the possible penalties? A little further down in subsection (4), you'll see this: -------------------------------------------------- (4) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1)(a), (b), (d)(iv) or (e) is liable- (a) on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or both; (b) on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or both. -------------------------------------------------- But that was amended by the Copyright, etc. and Trade Marks (Offences and Enforcement) Act 2002: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2002/20020025.htm#1 -------------------------------------------------- 1 Penalties for criminal offences (1) The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (c. 48) (in this Act referred to as the "1988 Act") is amended as follows. (2) In section 107(4)(b) (criminal liability for making or dealing with infringing articles, etc.), for "two" substitute "ten". -------------------------------------------------- The maximum penalty for someone convicted on indictment of those offences was increased from 2 years to 10 years. Jose Menendez P.S. In case anyone's wondering about the penalties for criminal copyright infringement in the U.S., here's a link to the No Electronic Theft ("NET") Act, which Bill Clinton signed into law on December 16, 1997. In particular, see section 2319, subsections (b) and (c). http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/17-18red.htm From schultzk at uni-trier.de Fri Mar 23 00:12:57 2007 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Schultz Keith J.) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:12:57 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21BBB110-953A-43D5-90ED-B99D0E43628C@uni-trier.de> Never trust a lawyer! Keith. Am 22.03.2007 um 09:50 schrieb Bowerbird at aol.com: > dave said: > > Any comments? > > listserve comments mean nothing in legal matters. > > but hey, what a sad world we live in, eh? > > -bowerbird > > > > ************************************** > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's > free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070323/73467f68/attachment.htm From schultzk at uni-trier.de Fri Mar 23 00:26:10 2007 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Schultz Keith J.) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:26:10 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> Message-ID: <5C7FB2C8-2186-4319-8AEA-22841EE8FE83@uni-trier.de> Hi, Am 22.03.2007 um 15:11 schrieb Dave Fawthrop: > On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:40:32 +0100, "Schultz Keith J." > wrote: > > |!This is a very interesting case. > |! > |! 1) You offer it for free !!!!!!! > |! 2) You do infringe of copyrights. > |! > |!Since you offer it for free you are not making money. In a sense > |!you may cause damges if and only if the books are in print. > |! > |!That all said courts tend to consider this a minor offense and > |!a fine if any will be punitive. It also depends on how many > copies you > ^^^^^^^^ > Oops wrong word I think ;-) Thanks, I just check the dictionary and you are right. I always thought term punitive was when then fines where SMALL. Anyhow, there were cases of software was distributed non-comercially big-time and the main person involved was just fined 1000 Euro here in Germany. It was distibuting thousands of copies. regards Keith. From schultzk at uni-trier.de Fri Mar 23 01:44:18 2007 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Schultz Keith J.) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:44:18 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: <9c6138c50703221130n352d53d1lba50b398183d8257@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> <9c6138c50703221130n352d53d1lba50b398183d8257@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: HI, Two things are of legal importance: 1) ".., protection granted in the country orgin of the work, ..." 2) "... author of the work is not a Community national, term of protection granted by Member States ..." Alot of buzz words and meaning in here. I will not go into the implications and ramifications. To over simplify: It depends on where the scanned book was published. Yes, there is a hell of alot more to it. But, that is the way legal matters work. regards Keith. Am 22.03.2007 um 19:30 schrieb Ricardo F Diogo: > Yes. > > COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 93/98/EEC of 29 October 1993 applies to EU Member > States. > > ?Article 7 > Protection vis-?-vis third countries > 1. Where the country of origin of a work, within the meaning of the > Berne Convention, is a third country, and the author of the work is > not a? [European] ?Community national, the term of protection granted > by the Member States shall expire on the date of expiry of the > protection granted in the country of origin of the work, but may not > exceed the term laid down in Article 1? [70 years]. > > However, are you sure that all authors in the CD where American? > If not, living in the EU and downloading or _uploading_ current PG's > CDs and DVDs _can be_ a risk. > Unless you personally check if: > * all authors died 70+ years ago (in that case, according to EU rules, > you're safe) > * _or_, if not,: > ** where did the author live > ** _and_ what copyright terms apply to their country > ** _and_ if there isn't a special agreement between your country and > the author's. > > I'd personally recommend all EU nationals not to make such CDs without > checking the individual authors' death date or, if they don't, never > to identify themselves (specially in PG's wiki). It's like water in a > duck's back to PG (because PG only follows US Law) _but not_ to people > setting up and _uploading_ such CDs in the EU (even if they come from > the US). All we (don't) need is a successor claiming copyright and > trying to discover _who_ was the volunteer that uploaded to PG's > servers. > > 2007/3/22, Greg Weeks : >> On Thu, 22 Mar 2007, Dave Fawthrop wrote: >> >>> So would you suggest a USA disc and a life + 70 disk? >> >> The US authored books are out of copyright even in the life+70 >> countries >> if the country has a rule of the shorter. >> >> -- >> Greg Weeks >> http://durendal.org:8080/greg/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gutvol-d mailing list >> gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org >> http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d >> > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From brett at dimetrodon.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 23 02:26:20 2007 From: brett at dimetrodon.demon.co.uk (Brett Paul Dunbar) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:26:20 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> <9c6138c50703221130n352d53d1lba50b398183d8257@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Schultz Keith J. writes >> However, are you sure that all authors in the CD where American? >> If not, living in the EU and downloading or _uploading_ current PG's >> CDs and DVDs _can be_ a risk. >> Unless you personally check if: >> * all authors died 70+ years ago (in that case, according to EU rules, >> you're safe) >> * _or_, if not,: >> ** where did the author live Actually that should be: "What are the applicable countries of origin?" There can be several. The country of origin is based on where the work is first published *not* on where the author resides. For the purposes of the UK law determining country of first publication within 30 days counts as simultaneous. >> ** _and_ what copyright terms apply to their country >> ** _and_ if there isn't a special agreement between your country and >> the author's. -- Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm Livejournal http://brett-dunbar.livejournal.com/ Brett Paul Dunbar To email me, use reply-to address From schultzk at uni-trier.de Fri Mar 23 02:56:07 2007 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Schultz Keith J.) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:56:07 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> <9c6138c50703221130n352d53d1lba50b398183d8257@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9DB3E0A8-3075-47A5-B22A-3920F024864B@uni-trier.de> I am not the author of this cite. The original was from: Am 22.03.2007 um 19:30 schrieb Ricardo F Diogo: regards Keith. Am 23.03.2007 um 10:26 schrieb Brett Paul Dunbar: > Schultz Keith J. writes >>> However, are you sure that all authors in the CD where American? >>> If not, living in the EU and downloading or _uploading_ current PG's >>> CDs and DVDs _can be_ a risk. >>> Unless you personally check if: >>> * all authors died 70+ years ago (in that case, according to EU >>> rules, >>> you're safe) >>> * _or_, if not,: >>> ** where did the author live > > Actually that should be: "What are the applicable countries of > origin?" > There can be several. The country of origin is based on where the work > is first published *not* on where the author resides. For the purposes > of the UK law determining country of first publication within 30 days > counts as simultaneous. > >>> ** _and_ what copyright terms apply to their country >>> ** _and_ if there isn't a special agreement between your country >>> and >>> the author's. > > -- > Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm > Livejournal http://brett-dunbar.livejournal.com/ > Brett Paul Dunbar > To email me, use reply-to address > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From ricardofdiogo at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 06:11:23 2007 From: ricardofdiogo at gmail.com (Ricardo F Diogo) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:11:23 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> <9c6138c50703221130n352d53d1lba50b398183d8257@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c6138c50703230611m142c8c52vccaf2b4a0f078501@mail.gmail.com> 2007/3/23, Brett Paul Dunbar : > [Ricardo F. Diogo] writes > >> However, are you sure that all authors in the CD where American? > >> If not, living in the EU and downloading or _uploading_ current PG's > >> CDs and DVDs _can be_ a risk. > >> Unless you personally check if: > >> * all authors died 70+ years ago (in that case, according to EU rules, > >> you're safe) > >> * _or_, if not,: > >> ** where did the author live > > Actually that should be: "What are the applicable countries of origin?" > There can be several. The country of origin is based on where the work > is first published *not* on where the author resides. For the purposes > of the UK law determining country of first publication within 30 days > counts as simultaneous. You are absolutely right. The accurate sentence would be "**where was the author born _and_ what are the applicable countries of origin of the work". > >> ** _and_ what copyright terms apply to their country > >> ** _and_ if there isn't a special agreement between your country and > >> the author's. My point is that EU nationals always have to mind the big differences between US and EU copyright terms. The better thing to do is just sticking to death dates (died 70+ years ago? cool, it's in public domain in the EU)--or you'll have to do lots of research if you hope to be protected by the "shorter term" rule. Even if the work has several authors, you'd have to do some research because the work is only in the public domain in the EU when the last one died. If you follow the "shorter term" rule.. well, the research would be huge. You'd have to know not only when did they die but also the origin of the work, the authors' nationality, the copyright rules in the country of the origin of the work, etc, etc. The only case where the publication date matters in the EU is when the work is anonymous. In that case, it's in public domain in 70 years after the publication. ( US--public domain if pre-1923 regardless of the author's death date; EU--public domain if pre-1937 only if anonymous.) That's why it's so important for EU nationals having the authors' death dates in the catalog and the publishing date inside the etext. Ricardo From ricardofdiogo at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 06:16:44 2007 From: ricardofdiogo at gmail.com (Ricardo F Diogo) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:16:44 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. In-Reply-To: <9c6138c50703230611m142c8c52vccaf2b4a0f078501@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ja403hunud2pha1cuc08n0ok4o403qpmj@4ax.com> <9c6138c50703221130n352d53d1lba50b398183d8257@mail.gmail.com> <9c6138c50703230611m142c8c52vccaf2b4a0f078501@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c6138c50703230616q80ab1acj49335be898b97b52@mail.gmail.com> A correction of my own previous message. ?Even if the work has several authors, you'd have to do some research because the work is only in the public domain in the EU [after 70 years since] the last one died? From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Mar 23 08:15:45 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:15:45 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] Problem with SF disc copyright. Message-ID: man, i wish society had back all the time we've wasted on the copyright question... even the energy wasted in listserve threads on that topic alone could have gone toward accomplishing some major constructive good, instead of just major-league confusing people. of course, confusing us is _exactly_ what those big corporations want to do, so we don't realize that we have the power to rip it out of their hands. -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070323/4995be4f/attachment.htm From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Mar 27 15:26:06 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:26:06 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] an account of my astonishment Message-ID: > http://thetyee.ca/Books/2007/03/23/Novels/ contains a review of 3 books on reading, including raves for "the library at night", by alberto manguel. > "Outside theology and fantastic literature," > Manguel says, "few can doubt that the main > features of our universe are its dearth of meaning > and lack of discernible purpose." That is, unless > you believe in God or Middle-Earth and Mordor, > neither the universe nor the evolutionary process > proposes an answer to the riddle of human life. > "And yet, with bewildering optimism, we continue > to assemble whatever scraps of information we > can gather in scrolls and books and computer chips, > on shelf after library shelf, whether material, virtual > or otherwise, pathetically intent on lending the world > a semblance of sense and order, while knowing perfectly > well that, however much we'd like to believe the contrary, > our pursuits are sadly doomed to failure. Why then do we do it?" there's more great stuff. it sounds like a fantastic book. -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070327/3a71ab80/attachment.htm From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Mar 27 17:04:27 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:04:27 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] the cost of an interlibrary loan Message-ID: here's a nice piece on interlibrary loans: > http://chronicle.com/jobs/news/2007/03/2007031401c many people don't know that there are fees involved with every interlibrary loan, since libraries generally eat them... according to this article, the association of research libraries estimates that it costs $22 to borrow a book, $12 to lend it. that means the transaction cost of one ill book is 30 bucks... if that's not enough to make you think about some things, i don't know what is... -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070327/439f3930/attachment.htm From Catenacci at Ieee.Org Tue Mar 27 18:36:47 2007 From: Catenacci at Ieee.Org (Onorio Catenacci) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:36:47 -0400 Subject: [gutvol-d] an account of my astonishment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/27/07, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > > http://thetyee.ca/Books/2007/03/23/Novels/ > contains a review of 3 books on reading, including > raves for "the library at night", by alberto manguel. > > > "Outside theology and fantastic literature," > > Manguel says, "few can doubt that the main > > features of our universe are its dearth of meaning > > and lack of discernible purpose." That is, unless > > you believe in God or Middle-Earth and Mordor, > > neither the universe nor the evolutionary process > > proposes an answer to the riddle of human life. > > "And yet, with bewildering optimism, we continue > > to assemble whatever scraps of information we > > can gather in scrolls and books and computer chips, > > on shelf after library shelf, whether material, virtual > > or otherwise, pathetically intent on lending the world > > a semblance of sense and order, while knowing perfectly > > well that, however much we'd like to believe the contrary, > > our pursuits are sadly doomed to failure. Why then do we do it?" > > there's more great stuff. it sounds like a fantastic book. > That does sound like a good book. Thanks for passing that along. -- Onorio From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Tue Mar 27 20:34:59 2007 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 04:34:59 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] the cost of an interlibrary loan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:04:27 EDT, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: |!here's a nice piece on interlibrary loans: |!> http://chronicle.com/jobs/news/2007/03/2007031401c |! |!many people don't know that there are fees involved with |!every interlibrary loan, since libraries generally eat them... |! |!according to this article, the association of research libraries |!estimates that it costs $22 to borrow a book, $12 to lend it. |!that means the transaction cost of one ill book is 30 bucks... |! |!if that's not enough to make you think about some things, |!i don't know what is... Inter Library loans even from the British Library are ********** ***FREE*** ********** at the point of use here, as are all library book loans. Just like the Good Old National Health Service. -- Dave Fawthrop From j.hagerson at comcast.net Wed Mar 28 05:48:31 2007 From: j.hagerson at comcast.net (John Hagerson) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:48:31 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] the cost of an interlibrary loan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c77137$6443bf90$1f12fea9@sarek> Dave, There are costs involved. The books don't magically fly off the shelf of one library and into your hand at another library. The librarian at your library must determine which library has the book you want and notify them somehow. A librarian at that library must retrieve the book from the shelf, pack it in an envelope or a box, and put it on a lorry or put it into the post. At the receiving end, a librarian must open the box and notify you that your book has arrived. When you have finished using the book, the entire shipping process occurs again in reverse to return the book to its original "home". In the US, these costs are not charged to the borrower but are borne by the libraries. From your comment, I presume that the practice in the UK is the same. John Hagerson -----Original Message----- From: gutvol-d-bounces at lists.pglaf.org [mailto:gutvol-d-bounces at lists.pglaf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Fawthrop Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 10:35 PM To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] the cost of an interlibrary loan On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:04:27 EDT, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: |!here's a nice piece on interlibrary loans: |!> http://chronicle.com/jobs/news/2007/03/2007031401c |! |!many people don't know that there are fees involved with |!every interlibrary loan, since libraries generally eat them... |! |!according to this article, the association of research libraries |!estimates that it costs $22 to borrow a book, $12 to lend it. |!that means the transaction cost of one ill book is 30 bucks... |! |!if that's not enough to make you think about some things, |!i don't know what is... Inter Library loans even from the British Library are ********** ***FREE*** ********** at the point of use here, as are all library book loans. Just like the Good Old National Health Service. -- Dave Fawthrop _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d From davedoty at hotmail.com Wed Mar 28 07:01:29 2007 From: davedoty at hotmail.com (Dave Doty) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:01:29 +0000 Subject: [gutvol-d] the cost of an interlibrary loan Message-ID: Considering that he compared it to the National Health Service, I suspect he knew there were costs involved. Unless you think he thought that nationwide universal health coverage didn't incur any costs, either.> From: j.hagerson at comcast.net> To: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk; gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:48:31 -0500> Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] the cost of an interlibrary loan> > Dave,> > There are costs involved. The books don't magically fly off the shelf of one> library and into your hand at another library. The librarian at your library> must determine which library has the book you want and notify them somehow.> A librarian at that library must retrieve the book from the shelf, pack it> in an envelope or a box, and put it on a lorry or put it into the post. At> the receiving end, a librarian must open the box and notify you that your> book has arrived. When you have finished using the book, the entire shipping> process occurs again in reverse to return the book to its original "home".> > In the US, these costs are not charged to the borrower but are borne by the> libraries. From your comment, I presume that the practice in the UK is the> same.> > John Hagerson> > -----Original Message-----> From: gutvol-d-bounces at lists.pglaf.org> [mailto:gutvol-d-bounces at lists.pglaf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Fawthrop> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 10:35 PM> To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion> Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] the cost of an interlibrary loan> > On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:04:27 EDT, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote:> > |!here's a nice piece on interlibrary loans:> |!> http://chronicle.com/jobs/news/2007/03/2007031401c> |!> |!many people don't know that there are fees involved with> |!every interlibrary loan, since libraries generally eat them...> |!> |!according to this article, the association of research libraries> |!estimates that it costs $22 to borrow a book, $12 to lend it.> |!that means the transaction cost of one ill book is 30 bucks...> |!> |!if that's not enough to make you think about some things,> |!i don't know what is...> > Inter Library loans even from the British Library are > **********> ***FREE***> **********> at the point of use here, as are all library book loans. > Just like the Good Old National Health Service.> -- > Dave Fawthrop > > _______________________________________________> gutvol-d mailing list> gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org> http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d> > _______________________________________________> gutvol-d mailing list> gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org> http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d _________________________________________________________________ Live Search Maps ? find all the local information you need, right when you need it. http://maps.live.com/?icid=wlmtag2&FORM=MGAC01 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070328/f7c69bfc/attachment.htm From gpdimonderose at hotmail.it Wed Mar 28 06:42:59 2007 From: gpdimonderose at hotmail.it (gpdimonderose at hotmail.it) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:42:59 +0200 Subject: [gutvol-d] Invitation to join Mobango Message-ID: <20070328134259.C946F1138085@web3.mobango.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070328/66a06d91/attachment-0001.htm From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Wed Mar 28 09:47:28 2007 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 17:47:28 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] the cost of an interlibrary loan In-Reply-To: <000101c77137$6443bf90$1f12fea9@sarek> References: <000101c77137$6443bf90$1f12fea9@sarek> Message-ID: In a civilised country these costs are covered by taxation in one of multitude various forms. Public Services such a Libraries and health should be funded from the Public Purse. -- Dave Fawthrop 165 *Free* SF ebooks. 165 Sci Fi books on CDROM, from Project Gutenberg http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page Completely Free to any address in the UK. Contact me on the *above* email address. On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:48:31 -0500, "John Hagerson" wrote: |!Dave, |! |!There are costs involved. The books don't magically fly off the shelf of one |!library and into your hand at another library. The librarian at your library |!must determine which library has the book you want and notify them somehow. |!A librarian at that library must retrieve the book from the shelf, pack it |!in an envelope or a box, and put it on a lorry or put it into the post. At |!the receiving end, a librarian must open the box and notify you that your |!book has arrived. When you have finished using the book, the entire shipping |!process occurs again in reverse to return the book to its original "home". |! |!In the US, these costs are not charged to the borrower but are borne by the |!libraries. From your comment, I presume that the practice in the UK is the |!same. |! |!John Hagerson |! |!-----Original Message----- |!From: gutvol-d-bounces at lists.pglaf.org |![mailto:gutvol-d-bounces at lists.pglaf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Fawthrop |!Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 10:35 PM |!To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion |!Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] the cost of an interlibrary loan |! |!On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:04:27 EDT, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: |! |!|!here's a nice piece on interlibrary loans: |!|!> http://chronicle.com/jobs/news/2007/03/2007031401c |!|! |!|!many people don't know that there are fees involved with |!|!every interlibrary loan, since libraries generally eat them... |!|! |!|!according to this article, the association of research libraries |!|!estimates that it costs $22 to borrow a book, $12 to lend it. |!|!that means the transaction cost of one ill book is 30 bucks... |!|! |!|!if that's not enough to make you think about some things, |!|!i don't know what is... |! |!Inter Library loans even from the British Library are |!********** |!***FREE*** |!********** |!at the point of use here, as are all library book loans. |!Just like the Good Old National Health Service. From joshua at hutchinson.net Wed Mar 28 10:28:40 2007 From: joshua at hutchinson.net (joshua at hutchinson.net) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 17:28:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [gutvol-d] the cost of an interlibrary loan Message-ID: <20382643.1175102920813.JavaMail.?@fh1064.dia.cp.net> (NOTE: I could be wrong about this analysis as I'm getting my information through Google searches and not from an actual UK librarian) It looks like the big difference here is that while in the US inter- library loans are free no matter WHERE your book originates from, in the UK, only the British Library is free. University libraries, notably, are NOT free. See this excerpt from the University of Exeter policy as an example: Charges Each inter-library loan request must be accompanied by a token (worth ?6.50) obtainable from Departments. Alternatively, readers may pay for their inter-library loans personally. On occasion more than one token may be required, e.g. for items borrowed from abroad or for multi-volume items. Josh PS I'll just ignore the lovely attempt to start a political argument over state-funded health care... ;) >----Original Message---- >From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk >Date: Mar 28, 2007 11:47 >To: "John Hagerson", >Subj: Re: [gutvol-d] the cost of an interlibrary loan > >In a civilised country these costs are covered by taxation in one of >multitude various forms. Public Services such a Libraries and health >should be funded from the Public Purse. > >-- >Dave Fawthrop 165 *Free* SF ebooks. >165 Sci Fi books on CDROM, from Project Gutenberg >http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page Completely Free to any >address in the UK. Contact me on the *above* email address. > > >On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:48:31 -0500, "John Hagerson" > wrote: > >|!Dave, >|! >|!There are costs involved. The books don't magically fly off the shelf of one >|!library and into your hand at another library. The librarian at your library >|!must determine which library has the book you want and notify them somehow. >|!A librarian at that library must retrieve the book from the shelf, pack it >|!in an envelope or a box, and put it on a lorry or put it into the post. At >|!the receiving end, a librarian must open the box and notify you that your >|!book has arrived. When you have finished using the book, the entire shipping >|!process occurs again in reverse to return the book to its original "home". >|! >|!In the US, these costs are not charged to the borrower but are borne by the >|!libraries. From your comment, I presume that the practice in the UK is the >|!same. >|! >|!John Hagerson >|! >|!-----Original Message----- >|!From: gutvol-d-bounces at lists.pglaf.org >|![mailto:gutvol-d-bounces at lists.pglaf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Fawthrop >|!Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 10:35 PM >|!To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion >|!Subject: Re: [gutvol-d] the cost of an interlibrary loan >|! >|!On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:04:27 EDT, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: >|! >|!|!here's a nice piece on interlibrary loans: >|!|!> http://chronicle.com/jobs/news/2007/03/2007031401c >|!|! >|!|!many people don't know that there are fees involved with >|!|!every interlibrary loan, since libraries generally eat them... >|!|! >|!|!according to this article, the association of research libraries >|!|!estimates that it costs $22 to borrow a book, $12 to lend it. >|!|!that means the transaction cost of one ill book is 30 bucks... >|!|! >|!|!if that's not enough to make you think about some things, >|!|!i don't know what is... >|! >|!Inter Library loans even from the British Library are >|!********** >|!***FREE*** >|!********** >|!at the point of use here, as are all library book loans. >|!Just like the Good Old National Health Service. > >_______________________________________________ >gutvol-d mailing list >gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org >http://lists.pglaf.org/listinfo.cgi/gutvol-d > From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Mar 28 11:27:30 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:27:30 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] the cost of an interlibrary loan Message-ID: um, of course there are costs involved. even when your library doesn't need to borrow the book from another library, because it already has its own copy, there were costs involved in purchasing it and cataloging it, not to mention shelving it and reshelving it when it's returned. what's of importance here is the _degree_ of expense involved. at $22/book for an interlibrary loan, you could be excused for thinking it would be just as efficient for the borrowing library to buy its own copy of the book, especially since the lending library is eating another $12/book on the loan as well. (however, if you were to learn the acquisition and shelving costs, you'd understand. a $20 book might cost a library $100 when all of that is computed, and more if we figure in the cost of shelving the book for decades. such is the reality of the economics of housing books these days...) the point is, at some point we must say "enough already, go digital!" even if patrons need a hard-copy, it's cheaper to print-on-demand and _give_ them a nicely bound book than to do an interlibrary loan. -bowerbird ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070328/77536815/attachment.htm From hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk Wed Mar 28 12:34:29 2007 From: hyphen at hyphenologist.co.uk (Dave Fawthrop) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:34:29 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] the cost of an interlibrary loan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5bgl03lgkodl1vo8o6c28fe0bst7et26n2@4ax.com> On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:27:30 EDT, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: |!um, of course there are costs involved. |! |!even when your library doesn't need to borrow the book |!from another library, because it already has its own copy, |!there were costs involved in purchasing it and cataloging it, |!not to mention shelving it and reshelving it when it's returned. |! |!what's of importance here is the _degree_ of expense involved. |! |!at $22/book for an interlibrary loan, you could be excused for |!thinking it would be just as efficient for the borrowing library to |!buy its own copy of the book, especially since the lending library |!is eating another $12/book on the loan as well. (however, if you |!were to learn the acquisition and shelving costs, you'd understand. |!a $20 book might cost a library $100 when all of that is computed, |!and more if we figure in the cost of shelving the book for decades. |!such is the reality of the economics of housing books these days...) |! |!the point is, at some point we must say "enough already, go digital!" |!even if patrons need a hard-copy, it's cheaper to print-on-demand |!and _give_ them a nicely bound book than to do an interlibrary loan. For every book and periodical published in the UK for the last ?50? years. I doubt is even possible, without thinking about the economics There are many buildings full of paper to digitise, at Boston Spa, and that is only the UK. -- Dave Fawthrop From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Mar 28 14:32:22 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 17:32:22 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] the cost of an interlibrary loan Message-ID: dave said: > For every book and periodical published in the UK for the last ?50? years. > I doubt is even possible, without thinking about the economics don't be silly. many of today's photocopiers have hard-disks in them. some of them can even be wired directly to the internet, so the copies are available world-wide and immediately. "digitizing a book" is now as easy as xeroxing it one time. you don't need the text digitized to do print-on-demand. -bowerbird ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070328/3421c20d/attachment.htm From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Mar 28 18:56:54 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 21:56:54 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] i heart lefsetz Message-ID: i've pointed to lefsetz before: > http://lefsetz.com/wordpress but this entry really lays it on the line: > http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2007/03/28/giving-it-away/ the future of music -- and books too -- is with youngsters doing it themselves with sweat equity, and the corporations are simply an anachronism, good only for access to "the mainstream", which is quickly becoming the kiss-of-death to _real_ artists. i like to think that i'm willing to tell it like it is. but next to lefsetz hardball, i'm a wimpy wuss. :+) -bowerbird ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070328/10e98bc5/attachment.htm From Catenacci at Ieee.Org Wed Mar 28 19:08:01 2007 From: Catenacci at Ieee.Org (Onorio Catenacci) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:08:01 -0400 Subject: [gutvol-d] i heart lefsetz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/28/07, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > i've pointed to lefsetz before: > > http://lefsetz.com/wordpress > > but this entry really lays it on the line: > > > http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2007/03/28/giving-it-away/ > > the future of music -- and books too -- > is with youngsters doing it themselves > with sweat equity, and the corporations > are simply an anachronism, good only for > access to "the mainstream", which is quickly > becoming the kiss-of-death to _real_ artists. > > i like to think that i'm willing to tell it like it is. > but next to lefsetz hardball, i'm a wimpy wuss. :+) > While lefsetz may be right, I think that people that envision this panacea of user-created content are deluding themselves. Not every musician is equally talented, disintermediated or not. Not every writer has a compelling story to tell. No doubt there will be writers and musicians that will succeed who would not have succeeded under the old business models. But there are also bound to be writers and musicians who would have succeeded under old business models because they need the marketing muscle the old distribution channels have provided. There are hundreds (shoot, thousands) of blogs that all sound pretty much the same because the people writing those blogs aren't really all that capable of original thought. They're very capable of "me too" when it's bashing some person they think they should dislike or supporting some person they think they should like. Youngsters may put sweat equity into making music and writing books and creating art but that's not going to make it any easier for a band or a writer or an artist to appeal to a mass market. It may change the mechanism but the end result will be the same. Just my humble (and not so original either) $.02. -- Onorio From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Mar 28 19:41:05 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:41:05 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] i heart lefsetz Message-ID: onorio said: > Youngsters may put sweat equity into making music and writing books > and creating art but that's not going to make it any easier for > a band or a writer or an artist to appeal to a mass market.? the idea is that you don't _need_ to "appeal to a mass market" any more. the ability to distribute your "content" to anyone on the planet at no cost means a much smaller audience can now support an artist sufficiently... without a corporation taking 95%, you can live with 1/20th the audience. and that same no-cost distribution can help an artist _find_ their niche. (whereas, in the past, they had _no_ means of producing that outcome.) i'm not arguing that your skepticism is unwarranted. i have a lot as well. the fact that _everyone_ has access to the same level playing field means that everyone now has _lots_and_lots_ of competition while on that field. and unless your "content" is significantly better than the free competition, you're gonna have trouble collecting money for it, even in a small amount. in fact, with _enough_ free competition that's "good enough", you're sunk. but the thing is, the corporations, who typically demand a _large_ amount, are gonna have an even more difficult go in this new world, especially when most people think their stuff is "lowest common denominator", rather than "head and shoulders above". the mass market is evaporating beneath them. -bowerbird ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070328/a6af1528/attachment.htm From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Mar 29 11:19:56 2007 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 20:19:56 +0200 Subject: [gutvol-d] i heart lefsetz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <460C034C.3030500@perathoner.de> Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2007/03/28/giving-it-away/ Nothing this Lefsetz guy is saying is anywhere near original thought. (Maybe that's why he is compelled to give it away for free.) Now for some original thought: "In the social production of their life, men enter into definite relations that are indispensable and independent of their will, relations of production which correspond to a definite stage of development of their material productive forces. The sum total of these relations of production constitutes the economic structure of society, the real foundation, on which rises a legal and political superstructure and to which correspond definite forms of social consciousness. "The mode of production of material life conditions the social, political and intellectual life process in general. It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness. "At a certain stage of their development, the material productive forces of society come in conflict with the existing relations of production, or ? what is but a legal expression for the same thing ? with the property relations within which they have been at work hitherto. From forms of development of the productive forces these relations turn into their fetters. "Then begins an epoch of social revolution. With the change of the economic foundation the entire immense superstructure is more or less rapidly transformed. In considering such transformations a distinction should always be made between the material transformation of the economic conditions of production, which can be determined with the precision of natural science, and the legal, political, religious, aesthetic or philosophic ? in short, ideological forms in which men become conscious of this conflict and fight it out." -- Preface of A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy, Karl Marx, 1859 The economic conditions of music production have changed. You don't need a $1M recording studio to record music anymore. A $10K PC can do it. What has hitherto been a structure supporting the production of more and better music, ie. corporations with recording know-how and marketing channels and copyright laws to protect their investments, has turned into a structure that is hindering the production of more and better music. The productive forces (artists) are now getting in conflict with the existing relations of production (big music corporations). Ergo: we will experience a social revolution in the music (and ie. software) market (with my best wishes to the HUAC and Mr. McCarthy). So far nothing is happening that hasn't been described 150 years ago. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Mar 30 13:07:26 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:07:26 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] some things never change Message-ID: david rothman is touting a $200 version of the o.l.p.c. machine. > http://www.teleread.org/blog/?p=6352 furthermore: > That?s the start. Costs will only go down, _a_lot_. and he winds himself up even more: > within five years a better machine will cost $75 of course, since he has, in the past, promised a $50 machine, and like any drug, you've gotta keep increasing the dosage, he's now obliged to go even further, and yes, he does: > Of course, if you want to talk about just e-book reading, > not full-fledged computing, we could well be seeing > $35 readers on the shelves at Walmart in the next five or ten years. yeah, right. at least he's smart enough to extend it out to 10 years. i've called rothman on this destructive hype before -- > http://www.teleread.org/blog/?p=3911 -- but he just seems to be addicted to the stuff... (indeed, he ran me off his blog so i wouldn't keep on pointing out that his fashion-leading emperor wasn't even wearing any clothes.) yes, certainly the day will come when we have super-cheap machines. but no, it won't be soon, and it's counter-productive and irresponsible -- terribly -- to make people believe that "it's just around the corner"... what it does is mislead people about the important e-book advances that are taking place _now_, with the hardware that we already have. they wait for a super-tomorrow that's _not_ gonna come tomorrow. jon noring, from 1996 on, was constantly talking about the emergence of high-quality, high-resolution, low-cost screens, and he always put the arrival date at "within 5 years". finally, in 2001, when those screens were still "within 5 years", i was able to start pointing out that he'd been saying that for 5 years already. this led him to curtail his prognosticating. (ironically, 10 years later, by 2006, high-quality, high-resolution screens _are_ appearing -- at a high cost, to be sure, but they are still appearing [e.g., you can see full-color thin-screens being used at every mcdonalds] -- which means that _within_5_years_ [e.g., 2011], they will be low-cost.) this is how the electronics industry works. they soak the early-adopters. very few products come out at the lowest price possible. we all know this. if you want to see what will be cheap in 5 years, see what's expensive now. if you can't already see an expensive version of something, then you will _not_ see a cheap version of it appearing soon. don't let yourself be fooled. -bowerbird ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.pglaf.org/private.cgi/gutvol-d/attachments/20070330/98a52637/attachment.htm From jon at noring.name Fri Mar 30 13:24:51 2007 From: jon at noring.name (Jon Noring) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:24:51 -0600 Subject: [gutvol-d] some things never change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <253489336.20070330142451@noring.name> bowerbird wrote: > (indeed, he ran me off his blog so i wouldn't keep on pointing out > that his fashion-leading emperor wasn't even wearing any clothes.) Are you sure that was David Rothman's reason? Jon Noring From cannona at fireantproductions.com Fri Mar 30 15:03:20 2007 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:03:20 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Fw: Library discussions this weekend Message-ID: <000201c77317$5f20dde0$0300a8c0@blackbox> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: RIPEMD160 - -- Skype: cannona MSN/Windows Messenger: cannona at hotmail.com (don't send email to the hotmail address.) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "SJ Klein" To: "OLPC content/software library discussions" Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 2:04 PM Subject: Library discussions this weekend > > We are having a library discussion this afternoon, and a wiki cleanup push > planned for the weekend. Please add suggestions and comments here: > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Talk:Library#Library_design > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/School_Server_Specification > > There is also a followup games discussion this Sunday; please join the > games mailing list if you are interested in that. > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Talk:Game_development > > Cheers, > SJ > _______________________________________________ > Library mailing list > Library at laptop.org > http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo/library -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (MingW32) - GPGrelay v0.959 Comment: Key available from all major key servers. iD8DBQFGDYlmI7J99hVZuJcRAw6hAKCZwsGo9gnx5rIEJra1BZ505WRs9wCg5OhX vZOFq/RUg9MUVTZ2Gigiwck= =FdCN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Mar 30 21:41:52 2007 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 00:41:52 EDT Subject: [gutvol-d] some things never change Message-ID: david rothman says: > Then check out Ars Technica > ("OLPC manufacturer to sell > $200 laptop in developed countries") > and the Financial Times > ("Quanta launches ultra-low-cost PCs"). press releases mean precisely zilch. that's my whole point, in a nutshell. let me know when it can be ordered. in the meantime, there's work to do. i'll ignore all of david's other baiting, because the strategy of labeling any argument that defeats your own as "flaming" sounds like one that i might want to utilize someday myself, yep... -bowerbird ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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