From gbnewby at pglaf.org Tue Dec 1 00:01:55 2009 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 00:01:55 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: <20091123183330.GA19309@pglaf.org> <20091130211638.GA7076@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <20091201080155.GA27403@pglaf.org> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 11:08:51PM -0800, James Adcock wrote: > > >One obvious approach is something like this: > > > http://m.gutenberg.org/etext/12345 > > Sorry, I can't get this example location to work. It doesn't exist. In this thread, we're talking about making such a URL work, suitable for various mobile devices. The page that Al mentioned does work: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/12345 ...but it's for fully-featured browsers. -- Greg From gbnewby at pglaf.org Tue Dec 1 00:14:01 2009 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 00:14:01 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: <20091123183330.GA19309@pglaf.org> <20091130211638.GA7076@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <20091201081401.GB27403@pglaf.org> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 04:56:34PM -0500, David A. Desrosiers wrote: > On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Greg Newby wrote: > > Does this seem like it should be easy? ?Or, do we need to customize > > for 1000 different devices (literally...according to our pals at > > wattpad.com). > > The correct way is to just apply a stylesheet for mobile devices to > your existing HTML page, and be done with it. You don't even have to > edit the HTML to apply it to all of the sub-html pages you serve from > that vhost if you wish. The main site appears to be running Apache/2, > so that's doable. This sounds easy to mock up. But I plead ignorance as to how a style sheet would do this. I infer you're not talking about user-agent switches (which we do sometimes use in a .htacess file, as well as various URL redirection). > I'd even be willing to expose my Gutenberg mirror as the "mobile site" > and make the necessary adjustments if you wanted to do that. That would be another easy way to test, thanks. > Supporting per-device useragents is a dead-end right from the start; > you'll always be playing a losing game of catch-up the whole way. Definitely. I know some places are doing it that way, but presumably they have content that demands more customization than our relatively simple eBooks. Or maybe they're just gluttons for punishment. > Let me know and we can begin testing out some ideas. It's pretty easy for me to drop in some alternate code at www.gutenberg.org for a variation. I'm definitely interested in how far a good CSS gets us. -- Greg From marcello at perathoner.de Tue Dec 1 08:46:43 2009 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 17:46:43 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: <20091123183330.GA19309@pglaf.org> <4B0BE28D.1080007@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <4B154873.2000005@perathoner.de> James Adcock wrote: >> What is a "magic catalog"? > > A "Magic Catalog" is fancy pants marketing words for a simple HTML catalog > which has been converted to EPUB I thought of that but put it on the back burner because: - if you have an online reader there's a much better alternative: http://code.google.com/p/openpub/wiki/OPDS - if you have an offline reader, there isn't much point as you can't download the books. > Yes one can do this and this is in fact how the Magic Catalogs work, but PG > asks that one not do this kind of direct linking to a book, rather PG asks > that one links to the standard "landing pads" at PG, such as: If you have an epub catalog you qualify as Independent Search Site. Just include a link to the gutenberg main page in some prominent place. You may get in trouble if we change the directory structure though. >> We have no information about the 'illustration' status of an ebook. >> Sometimes the producers include ornaments and drop caps as images, so we >> cannot claim 'illustrated' if we find images. > > Very Strange, then how does PG generate a page such as > http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/22210 -- which includes both "illustrated" > and "un-illustrated" versions of the same book? Reading helps understanding. It says 'with images' which is not the same as 'illustrated'. > So there is a > ton of options available here, and it could be cool if someone documented > all the different ways one can read the various file options PG offers using > a netbook Get a wiki account and just do it. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From jimad at msn.com Tue Dec 1 16:23:05 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 16:23:05 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: <20091123183330.GA19309@pglaf.org> <20091130211638.GA7076@pglaf.org> Message-ID: I think we are talking about different things. I think your wrappers take HTML versions of books and make them available for phone devices? I think what the rest of us have been talking about is how to make E-PUB and MOBI not HTML versions of the books more easily available directly from the PG site to E-book readers, such as the Kindle, which have rudimentary HTML browsers. Now phone devices have rudimentary HTML browsers too, so they could also use a simpler HTML interface to the PG site, but I would think the E-book readers and perhaps phone devices too would prefer to read e-books in an E-book format such as E-PUB or MOBI rather than in HTML -- which is presumably why E-book readers use E-PUB or MOBI as their native formats and not HTML. >I threw something together this afternoon and you can see it in the >screenshots below (taken from my BlackBerry Bold device with BBSAK >from my Windows laptop) >http://code.gnu-designs.com/m.gutenberg.org/ From jimad at msn.com Tue Dec 1 16:23:05 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 16:23:05 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: <20091123183330.GA19309@pglaf.org> <20091130211638.GA7076@pglaf.org> Message-ID: I think we are talking about different things. I think your wrappers take HTML versions of books and make them available for phone devices? I think what the rest of us have been talking about is how to make E-PUB and MOBI not HTML versions of the books more easily available directly from the PG site to E-book readers, such as the Kindle, which have rudimentary HTML browsers. Now phone devices have rudimentary HTML browsers too, so they could also use a simpler HTML interface to the PG site, but I would think the E-book readers and perhaps phone devices too would prefer to read e-books in an E-book format such as E-PUB or MOBI rather than in HTML -- which is presumably why E-book readers use E-PUB or MOBI as their native formats and not HTML. >I threw something together this afternoon and you can see it in the >screenshots below (taken from my BlackBerry Bold device with BBSAK >from my Windows laptop) >http://code.gnu-designs.com/m.gutenberg.org/ From jimad at msn.com Tue Dec 1 16:33:12 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 16:33:12 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: <20091123183330.GA19309@pglaf.org> <20091130211638.GA7076@pglaf.org> Message-ID: >http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/12345 OK, then I don't know what this is other than a time-wasting joke on all of us. I've already said many times that the standard PG "landing pads" don't work for E-book readers, which have rudimentary browsers. The standard PG landing pads use frames, include pictures, assume a very wide (in terms of pixels) device etc -- none of which works worth a dang on E-book readers. Again, take a look at mnybks.net if you want to see the kind of web page that is well suited to E-book readers and their rudimentary browsers. From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Dec 1 17:45:50 2009 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 20:45:50 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) Message-ID: jim said: > OK, then I don't know what this is other than a time-wasting joke calm down, jim, it was just al haines jumping into the middle of a discussion when he hadn't read the whole thread, so he had no idea what he was talking about. he does that a lot, but it's no big deal; it's irritating, but it's no big deal. just understand it, and move on. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hart at pglaf.org Tue Dec 1 18:46:16 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 18:46:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: <20091123183330.GA19309@pglaf.org> <20091130211638.GA7076@pglaf.org> Message-ID: If our page can work on a cellphone, should be workable on an ereader. mh On Tue, 1 Dec 2009, Jim Adcock wrote: > > >http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/12345 > > OK, then I don't know what this is other than a time-wasting joke on all of > us. I've already said many times that the standard PG "landing pads" don't > work for E-book readers, which have rudimentary browsers. The standard PG > landing pads use frames, include pictures, assume a very wide (in terms of > pixels) device etc -- none of which works worth a dang on E-book readers. > Again, take a look at mnybks.net if you want to see the kind of web page > that is well suited to E-book readers and their rudimentary browsers. > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Dec 1 19:48:59 2009 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 22:48:59 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) Message-ID: michael said: > If our page can work on a cellphone, > should be workable on an ereader. um, not really. they don't work the same way. jim, i'd think you can get what you need easily. try this: > http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/23456/pg23456.epub and then try these: > http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/23457/pg23457.epub > http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/23458/pg23458.epub > http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/23459/pg23459.epub > http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/23460/pg23460.epub those are direct links to the .epub versions. for mobi, try these: > http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/23456/pg23456.mobi > http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/23457/pg23457.mobi > http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/23458/pg23458.mobi > http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/23459/pg23459.mobi > http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/23460/pg23460.mobi *** of course, something like this -- where each individual line was linked to the appropriate volume -- would be much more useful: > 23456 -- More Dollies by Richard Hunter (children's poetry) > 23457 -- The Keepsake by Anonymous (children's poetry) > 23458 -- Little Journeys to the Homes of the Great - Vol 13 > 23459 -- Fishy-Winkle by Jean C. Archer > 23460 -- Abroad by Various (children's poetry) but let's start at the beginning and see how the above works... if i understand you correctly, this is the type of thing you want. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hart at pglaf.org Tue Dec 1 20:08:45 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 20:08:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 2009, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > michael said: > >?? If our page can work on a cellphone, > >?? should be workable on an ereader. > > um, not really.? they don't work the same way. In this case, it was specified they had a browser, thus presuming an "agent" that could be worked with. From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Dec 1 20:30:47 2009 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 23:30:47 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) Message-ID: michael said: > In this case, it was specified they had a browser, > thus presuming an "agent" that could be worked with. yes, but one doesn't read books using that browser. you can _download_ book-files using that browser. (which are then read using the non-browser part.) but the project gutenberg landing-pages are not in a good form to do that, as currently constructed. jim is asking for a new construction, to make it easy for those reader-machines to download your books. the easiest way -- which is what i just suggested -- is to link to some "deep" pages on the site, but that has been "officially discouraged" by your webmaster, at least in the past, and sometimes it gets enforced. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hart at pglaf.org Tue Dec 1 22:37:18 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 22:37:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 2009, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > michael said: > >?? In this case, it was specified they had a browser, > >?? thus presuming an "agent" that could be worked with. > > yes, but one doesn't read books using that browser. _I_ do, and I do it as part of my demonstrations all the time, from large screens, to laptops, to netbooks, to cellphones, to Palms and other PDA's. People love it!!! > you can _download_ book-files using that browser. > (which are then read using the non-browser part.) You can also do a "save page" and stay in browsers. > but the project gutenberg landing-pages are not > in a good form to do that, as currently constructed. One of the things I am pushing for. > jim is asking for a new construction, to make it easy > for those reader-machines to download your books. I'm not pushing as hard for those, yet, simply because there aren't enough of them. With Kindle recently yak up a storm of numbers up to nearly 2 million, when not saying one word about sales up until then, I suspect a little manipulation of sales figures ensued. However, even if Kindle and Sony each had 2 million it would be only one per thousand cellphones. When/if these devices reach 10% of other options, then it may be time to give them more attention, but not as in more attention than any other device people used to read our eBooks. I don't know if anyone here is really aware of it, but there are already places that have more cellphones per person than 1.00. . .and not just certain cities but a matter of entire countries, not just most developed. This is why I have been pushing so hard for cellphones to be used to read our eBooks, because more have eBook access through cellphones than just plain computers or ereaders or PDAs. . .COMBINED!!! > the easiest way -- which is what i just suggested -- > is to link to some "deep" pages on the site, but that > has been "officially discouraged" by your webmaster, > at least in the past, and sometimes it gets enforced. We have put up some experimental pages where you should be able to try anything you want. . .GO FOR IT!!! > > -bowerbird > > From desrod at gnu-designs.com Wed Dec 2 05:21:35 2009 From: desrod at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 08:21:35 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Michael S. Hart wrote: > We have put up some experimental pages where you should > be able to try anything you want. . .GO FOR IT!!! The tool I created was a simple wrapper around the existing etexts, which reflows/reformats the existing HTML version of the work, for display on the lowest-common-denominator device; a browser. If you're all talking about taking the existing site's landing pages and making them appropriate for browsing on the Kindle/Iliad/etc., and having the standard landing page links work appropriately for each device (also very doable), then I'll need to mirror the content that drives those landing pages. I don't have access to that from my local mirror of the PG archive itself. I'm happy to clean that up and help make something work for those other devices, using the existing landing page paradigm, but that's not what I thought we were originally talking about. I thought we wanted to add additional links ON those landing pages, that would be appropriate for use on non-desktop browsing clients. From gbnewby at pglaf.org Wed Dec 2 07:16:51 2009 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 07:16:51 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091202151651.GA22902@pglaf.org> On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 08:21:35AM -0500, David A. Desrosiers wrote: > On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Michael S. Hart wrote: > > We have put up some experimental pages where you should > > be able to try anything you want. . .GO FOR IT!!! > > The tool I created was a simple wrapper around the existing etexts, > which reflows/reformats the existing HTML version of the work, for > display on the lowest-common-denominator device; a browser. > > If you're all talking about taking the existing site's landing pages > and making them appropriate for browsing on the Kindle/Iliad/etc., and > having the standard landing page links work appropriately for each > device (also very doable), then I'll need to mirror the content that > drives those landing pages. I don't have access to that from my local > mirror of the PG archive itself. This is what I've been talking about. I understand what you're asking for, but it doesn't need to be that hard. Some good examples of what the landing pages would look like (with standard HTML, style sheets, .htaccess, or other aspects), with static files, would be great. I suggest this approach because: - The back end at gutenberg.org is not easily portable. - Building your own interactive back end, using the catalog RDF/XML file is not necessary for the landing page purpose > I'm happy to clean that up and help make something work for those > other devices, using the existing landing page paradigm, but that's > not what I thought we were originally talking about. I thought we > wanted to add additional links ON those landing pages, that would be > appropriate for use on non-desktop browsing clients. This is a related goal, so don't hesitate to offer further examples & ideas. Ultimately, we'd like as much of the content on gutenberg.org (including the collection, wiki pages, and eBook catalog landing pages) to work on a much wider variety of devices. This can include automated conversion of the eBook files (which is already in place, and additional converters are fairly easy to use). Since we already have some reasonable converts in place, my current interest is in making the surrounding files (i.e., the Web site, not the eBooks) friendlier. -- Greg From hart at pglaf.org Wed Dec 2 07:39:14 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 07:39:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One other option might be to just install a redirect option on the main pages that would go to a page with instructions for your routine. . . . On Wed, 2 Dec 2009, David A. Desrosiers wrote: > On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Michael S. Hart wrote: > > We have put up some experimental pages where you should > > be able to try anything you want. . .GO FOR IT!!! > > The tool I created was a simple wrapper around the existing etexts, > which reflows/reformats the existing HTML version of the work, for > display on the lowest-common-denominator device; a browser. > > If you're all talking about taking the existing site's landing pages > and making them appropriate for browsing on the Kindle/Iliad/etc., and > having the standard landing page links work appropriately for each > device (also very doable), then I'll need to mirror the content that > drives those landing pages. I don't have access to that from my local > mirror of the PG archive itself. > > I'm happy to clean that up and help make something work for those > other devices, using the existing landing page paradigm, but that's > not what I thought we were originally talking about. I thought we > wanted to add additional links ON those landing pages, that would be > appropriate for use on non-desktop browsing clients. > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From desrod at gnu-designs.com Wed Dec 2 10:41:30 2009 From: desrod at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 13:41:30 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: <20091202151651.GA22902@pglaf.org> References: <20091202151651.GA22902@pglaf.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Greg Newby wrote: > Since we already have some reasonable converts in place, my current > interest is in making the surrounding files (i.e., the Web site, > not the eBooks) friendlier. Fair enough... other than wget'ing the entire front-facing page for each landing etext, how do I go about replicating that here, so I can begin testing some of those modifications? From bowerbird at aol.com Wed Dec 2 10:42:03 2009 From: bowerbird at aol.com (bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 13:42:03 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) Message-ID: <4d3.3aaa4d6e.38480efb@aol.com> michael said: > _I_ do, and I do it as part of my demonstrations all the time cool. so you're covered, right? so you won't mind if i help jim, right? because jim wants to do it a different way, and i'm waiting for his feedback on what i suggested, to see if that does the trick for him. because david and greg set out to help jim -- but then they got sidetracked in another direction. now i hope they follow that up, because i'm sure that will help some other people do it _their_ way. but in the meantime, jim was pointing out that his request had been sidetracked, so i was trying to see if i could help him out... i don't really care if there are half-a-million kindles, or 12 million, or 8 dozen. the only important number to me is the number _one_, as in jim came in here as _one_ person, asking for something, and -- if i understand him right -- it should be pretty easy for him to create what he wants, so i'm gonna show him how he can do that. because if he knows how, he might put some elbow grease to it... and yeah, i think it's wonderful that people _can_ read e-books on our cell-phones, and i'm glad that you've advocated that all along... on the other hand, people _are_ reading e-books on their kindles, i know it, for sure, because that's about all you can do on a kindle, and if people are gonna waste their money on a single-functionality e-book-reader-machine, then i _hope_ they can read e-books on it, so i think it is a good use of my energy to try and help jim out here, because then he could spread that functionality to the kindle world, whatever size it happens to be. i'm glad we had this little discussion, michael, because i always believe that i agree with you, even when you seem to think that you disagree with me, which is quite entertaining... -bowerbird p.s. ok, i see that _greg_ wasn't actually sidetracked at all... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gbnewby at pglaf.org Wed Dec 2 13:05:30 2009 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 13:05:30 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: <20091202151651.GA22902@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <20091202210530.GA5666@pglaf.org> On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 01:41:30PM -0500, David A. Desrosiers wrote: > On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Greg Newby wrote: > > Since we already have some reasonable converts in place, my current > > interest is in making the surrounding files (i.e., the Web site, > > not the eBooks) friendlier. > > Fair enough... other than wget'ing the entire front-facing page for > each landing etext, how do I go about replicating that here, so I can > begin testing some of those modifications? The landing pages are quite similar. Why not just choose a small subset (like 5)? >From my point of view, if you can provide a few good samples, I can pick them up and put them in the backend on the site. I could send the .php script that generates the pages, if it might help. (The PHP won't work solo, because it has some external dependencies, including our Postgres database and a bunch of other PHP files.) Extracting whatever is different from your pages, and applying them to pages on the site, is something I will be able to do for stuff like css and HTML changes. Or, if it gets complicated, we'll think of another approach. (If I didn't apologize lately: sorry that it's not easy for us to provide additional people usernames on the site, or set up a sandbox. Only the public Wiki area enables this, but it doesn't run the landing pages that we're trying to address.) -- Greg From hart at pglaf.org Thu Dec 3 11:27:07 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 11:27:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks Message-ID: Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks by Michael S. Hart Founder Project Gutenberg, Inventor of eBooks One of those things I like best about eBooks is giving them away. Not just giving them away, but how easy it is to give them away-- and how many you can give away with such little effort. Another wonderful thing about eBooks is that you can correct what you find in error, or just make changes in how YOU think an eBook should look for you and then whenever you give them away everyone you give them to will have the same improved copies. Of course, you can also send in Project Gutenberg error reports-- and we will gladly check these against various edition, and these will be fixed for the rest of the history of that eBook. One of my personal favorite things about eBooks is how easy it is to find your way around in them; even a three word phrase such as "not to be" only appears twice in Hamlet, so telling everyone how to find a certain place in an eBook is much easier than on paper, as giving the page number in a paper book only takes you within a thousand or two thousand characters of where you want to go. The idea of giving someone just a three word phrase to find the exact location is something that works incredibly better, and, as those examples in Hamlet demonstrate, if you get another identical word combination, just hit the search key again, much easier than scan and scan to find the phrase on any given page. Quoting eBooks is also quick and easy, and of course accurate for eBooks in comparison to paper books. Gone are the stacks, stacks and stacks of 3x5 index cards or notebooks full of quotations and the labor of writing each one out longhand. Gone is is the quote you wanted to use and just can't find, even though you remember a card you laboriously wrote it down on. And, thankfully, gone are the errors you made in the quotations, the ones marked in red and made you wonder how your instructor knew the quotes so well as to nail you for leaving out that comma. Footnoting those quotations is trivial with most word processors, as are indices, bibliographies, concordances, etc. Cost is a huge factor, too, as most of the eBooks in the world of research papers, particularly in literature classes, are free, as are millions of other eBooks. Yes, there still is The Digital Divide, but for those willing and and able to use their cellphones, many of the functions of eBooks are available to the vast majority of the world with cellphones-- about 4.5 billion by the end of 2009. The Least The thing I perhaps like least about eBooks is how many people in the world think it is my job to make eBooks come out exactly that way they think is the best in the world, and constantly harass me to change to this format or that one as the only, or primary, one of all the formats in the world. Sorry, CONTENT is what Project Gutenberg provides but not FORMAT, FORM, FORMALITY, etc. Let's face it, but when even the plainest of plain text eBooks is created, 99% of the work of re-creating it into another format is already done, all YOU have to do is change 1% and you can have it any other way you want it. On top of this, there are many format conversion programs out there that will do most of this for you. It's funny how something that has already done 99% of the labor's time and effort can be so vilified for not doing the other 1%. I suppose these people also feel that mass-produced clothing that they buy should be made their own exact fittings, along with cars and every other product. Not to mention, of course, that this product is free of charge. Yes, there are those who insist that we vacillate between formats as quickly as a new set of them come out: insisting that we join with some new effort by The Billionaire Boys club, then dropping, like a hot potato, that format in favor of another one. Some are even insisting that we do ALL formats. Sorry again, but what we provide is CONTENT not FORM. Anyone is welcome to impose their own FORM on our CONTENT, and we will even help them in the process by publicizing their wish, and asking for volunteers to help them. However, in the end, it nearly always turns out just the same, as it all comes out as hot air, with none left over to turn wheels a new industry needs to turn to create new products. I must admit, but sometimes it appears that everyone in the world seems to know how to run Project Gutenberg better than I. However, then when I offer them the keys to the kingdom to create their own competitive effort, that the effort is not there. Just more hot air. . . . All in all, of course, there are many more things about eBooks in general that I like, respect and even love. From sly at victoria.tc.ca Thu Dec 3 12:03:43 2009 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 12:03:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Dec 2009, Michael S. Hart wrote: > The thing I perhaps like least about eBooks is how many people in > the world think it is my job to make eBooks come out exactly that > way they think is the best in the world, and constantly harass me > to change to this format or that one as the only, or primary, one > of all the formats in the world. Hmm.... It also strikes me as a little ironic that people would be harassing you, because I don't believe you have been directly involved in making _any_ choices about format or presentation of PG texts for years now. --Andrew From ajhaines at shaw.ca Thu Dec 3 12:07:11 2009 From: ajhaines at shaw.ca (Al Haines (shaw)) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 12:07:11 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks References: Message-ID: <54FBFF39647D430A95D028F97C2BB9D6@alp2400> >From the production aspect of ebooks: - they're educational. I've been exposed to more history and literature from producing ebooks than I ever was in school. - they give you a perspective on modern culture/technology. I've done books where American villages had only a single telephone (in the post-office), high-tech messaging was sending a telegram, a fast car did 40 mph, and a teen-ager built a bi-plane aircraft with a top speed of 60 mph. - you encounter the occasional bit of trivia-contest fodder. One of my productions, Initial Studies in American Letters, by Henry A. Beers, mentioned that "Home, Sweet Home" is from an American-written opera named Clari, circa 1820. - it's fun and rarely boring (well, religion and philosophy are stupefyingly so, but I'm willing to put up with the boredom, while producing an ebook, for the sake of those who may not think so ). Al ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael S. Hart" To: "The gutvol-d Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:27 AM Subject: [gutvol-d] Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks > Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks > > > by Michael S. Hart > Founder > Project Gutenberg, > Inventor of eBooks > > > One of those things I like best about eBooks is giving them away. > Not just giving them away, but how easy it is to give them away-- > and how many you can give away with such little effort. > > Another wonderful thing about eBooks is that you can correct what > you find in error, or just make changes in how YOU think an eBook > should look for you and then whenever you give them away everyone > you give them to will have the same improved copies. > > Of course, you can also send in Project Gutenberg error reports-- > and we will gladly check these against various edition, and these > will be fixed for the rest of the history of that eBook. > > One of my personal favorite things about eBooks is how easy it is > to find your way around in them; even a three word phrase such as > "not to be" only appears twice in Hamlet, so telling everyone how > to find a certain place in an eBook is much easier than on paper, > as giving the page number in a paper book only takes you within a > thousand or two thousand characters of where you want to go. The > idea of giving someone just a three word phrase to find the exact > location is something that works incredibly better, and, as those > examples in Hamlet demonstrate, if you get another identical word > combination, just hit the search key again, much easier than scan > and scan to find the phrase on any given page. > > Quoting eBooks is also quick and easy, and of course accurate for > eBooks in comparison to paper books. Gone are the stacks, stacks > and stacks of 3x5 index cards or notebooks full of quotations and > the labor of writing each one out longhand. Gone is is the quote > you wanted to use and just can't find, even though you remember a > card you laboriously wrote it down on. And, thankfully, gone are > the errors you made in the quotations, the ones marked in red and > made you wonder how your instructor knew the quotes so well as to > nail you for leaving out that comma. > > Footnoting those quotations is trivial with most word processors, > as are indices, bibliographies, concordances, etc. > > Cost is a huge factor, too, as most of the eBooks in the world of > research papers, particularly in literature classes, are free, as > are millions of other eBooks. > > Yes, there still is The Digital Divide, but for those willing and > and able to use their cellphones, many of the functions of eBooks > are available to the vast majority of the world with cellphones-- > about 4.5 billion by the end of 2009. > > > > > The Least > > > The thing I perhaps like least about eBooks is how many people in > the world think it is my job to make eBooks come out exactly that > way they think is the best in the world, and constantly harass me > to change to this format or that one as the only, or primary, one > of all the formats in the world. > > Sorry, CONTENT is what Project Gutenberg provides but not FORMAT, > FORM, FORMALITY, etc. > > Let's face it, but when even the plainest of plain text eBooks is > created, 99% of the work of re-creating it into another format is > already done, all YOU have to do is change 1% and you can have it > any other way you want it. On top of this, there are many format > conversion programs out there that will do most of this for you. > > It's funny how something that has already done 99% of the labor's > time and effort can be so vilified for not doing the other 1%. > > I suppose these people also feel that mass-produced clothing that > they buy should be made their own exact fittings, along with cars > and every other product. > > Not to mention, of course, that this product is free of charge. > > Yes, there are those who insist that we vacillate between formats > as quickly as a new set of them come out: insisting that we join > with some new effort by The Billionaire Boys club, then dropping, > like a hot potato, that format in favor of another one. Some are > even insisting that we do ALL formats. > > Sorry again, but what we provide is CONTENT not FORM. > > Anyone is welcome to impose their own FORM on our CONTENT, and we > will even help them in the process by publicizing their wish, and > asking for volunteers to help them. > > However, in the end, it nearly always turns out just the same, as > it all comes out as hot air, with none left over to turn wheels a > new industry needs to turn to create new products. > > I must admit, but sometimes it appears that everyone in the world > seems to know how to run Project Gutenberg better than I. > > However, then when I offer them the keys to the kingdom to create > their own competitive effort, that the effort is not there. > > Just more hot air. . . . > > > All in all, of course, there are many more things about eBooks in > general that I like, respect and even love. > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Dec 3 13:39:01 2009 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:39:01 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B182FF5.5010301@perathoner.de> Michael S. Hart wrote: > Sorry, CONTENT is what Project Gutenberg provides but not FORMAT, > FORM, FORMALITY, etc. > Yes, there still is The Digital Divide, but for those willing and > and able to use their cellphones, many of the functions of eBooks > are available to the vast majority of the world with cellphones-- > about 4.5 billion by the end of 2009. How are people to use PG content on their cellphones if the main format PG offers is unusable on those devices and impossible to convert? Can't you see that your bigotry re. new formats contradicts your push for PG on mobile devices? > Let's face it, but when even the plainest of plain text eBooks is > created, 99% of the work of re-creating it into another format is > already done, all YOU have to do is change 1% and you can have it > any other way you want it. People might not know how to do that 1% and just give up on PG. > On top of this, there are many format > conversion programs out there that will do most of this for you. There is none that can take your anachronistic pet format and transform it into anything readable by computers. > I must admit, but sometimes it appears that everyone in the world > seems to know how to run Project Gutenberg better than I. Tell me one important decision that you made, championed or suggested in the last twelve month re. PG. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Dec 3 13:56:10 2009 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:56:10 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: <20091202210530.GA5666@pglaf.org> References: <20091202151651.GA22902@pglaf.org> <20091202210530.GA5666@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <4B1833FA.7050703@perathoner.de> Greg Newby wrote: >>From my point of view, if you can provide a few good samples, I > can pick them up and put them in the backend on the site. I could > send the .php script that generates the pages, if it might help. > (The PHP won't work solo, because it has some external dependencies, > including our Postgres database and a bunch of other PHP files.) I'm moving away from PHP and towards python with genshi templates. See http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/97/pg97.bibrec Building a mobile bibrec is just a question of a new genshi template and a new CSS. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From hart at pglaf.org Thu Dec 3 14:02:36 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 14:02:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Dec 2009, Andrew Sly wrote: > > > On Thu, 3 Dec 2009, Michael S. Hart wrote: > > > The thing I perhaps like least about eBooks is how many people in > > the world think it is my job to make eBooks come out exactly that > > way they think is the best in the world, and constantly harass me > > to change to this format or that one as the only, or primary, one > > of all the formats in the world. > > Hmm.... It also strikes me as a little ironic that people would > be harassing you, because I don't believe you have been directly > involved in making _any_ choices about format or presentation > of PG texts for years now. > > --Andrew Just look at Marcello's well thought out Philippic. Or Rothman's. Or bowerbird, who at least argues both sides. . . . > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From hart at pglaf.org Thu Dec 3 14:18:52 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 14:18:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks In-Reply-To: <4B182FF5.5010301@perathoner.de> References: <4B182FF5.5010301@perathoner.de> Message-ID: I don't know how Marcello Perathoner has managed to avoid cellphones that can read Project Gutenberg .txt files for all these years. After all, he live in an area that is well ahead of where I live, at least in terms of cellphones, and I think many other things. _I_ have several five year old cellphones here that have no troubles reading .txt files. I do it all the time at my demonstrations. If I can do this with such outdated technology from US cellphones it should be much easier from more modern technologies, and in advanced areas well beyond the retarded cellphones we have here in the US. When I was living in Europe 10 years ago I saw cellphones waay ahead of anything I ever saw here until years later. [Remember "The Saint" movie with Val Kilmer made in 1996? It had an awesome Nokia 9000 "Communicator" way beyond what we had until quite literally just a few years ago with the LG eNvy, LG Voyager, then on into the iPhone and all its clones, and of course, Blackberrys. On Thu, 3 Dec 2009, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Michael S. Hart wrote: > > > Sorry, CONTENT is what Project Gutenberg provides but not FORMAT, > > FORM, FORMALITY, etc. > > > Yes, there still is The Digital Divide, but for those willing and > > and able to use their cellphones, many of the functions of eBooks > > are available to the vast majority of the world with cellphones-- > > about 4.5 billion by the end of 2009. > > How are people to use PG content on their cellphones if the main format PG > offers is unusable on those devices and impossible to convert? > > Can't you see that your bigotry re. new formats contradicts your push for PG > on mobile devices? > > > > Let's face it, but when even the plainest of plain text eBooks is > > created, 99% of the work of re-creating it into another format is > > already done, all YOU have to do is change 1% and you can have it > > any other way you want it. > > People might not know how to do that 1% and just give up on PG. > > > > On top of this, there are many format > > conversion programs out there that will do most of this for you. > > There is none that can take your anachronistic pet format and transform it > into anything readable by computers. > > > > I must admit, but sometimes it appears that everyone in the world > > seems to know how to run Project Gutenberg better than I. > > Tell me one important decision that you made, championed or suggested in the > last twelve month re. PG. > > > > From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu Dec 3 15:32:43 2009 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 18:32:43 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks Message-ID: michael said: > Or bowerbird, who at least argues both sides. . . . actually, michael, when it comes to _formats_, i've been arguing on _your_ side, exclusively, for many years now. indeed, my main point in regard to _formats_ is that you should actually follow the rules for your format, all of your rules, all of the time, in all of your books, so i guess i could argue that i support your format more than you do. certainly more than your whitewashers do... > when even the plainest of plain text eBooks > is created, 99% of the work of re-creating it > into another format is already done, all YOU > have to do is change 1% and you can have it > any other way you want it.? On top of this, > there are many format conversion programs > out there that will do most of this for you. well, if you followed all the rules of your format, format conversion programs could do all the work. even now, with the whitewashers' inconsistencies, apps like eucalyptus can (on-the-fly) convert your .txt files to beautiful e-books even on inferior kit. there are people here who question you, michael. i am not one of them. no, i argue _against_ them. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richfield at telkomsa.net Fri Dec 4 00:28:38 2009 From: richfield at telkomsa.net (Jon Richfield) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 10:28:38 +0200 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B18C836.3030401@telkomsa.net> Michael S. Hart wrote: > Just look at Marcello's well thought out Philippic. > > Or Rothman's. > > Or bowerbird, who at least argues both sides. . . . > > > > Yerrr.... Riiight. Now I do not intend wasting time on anyone who thinks that I am in any way anyone's fan more than my own (After all, no one else specialises in being my fan, so though it does not pay well, at least it attracts very little competition. I find it downright lonely here at the top; splendid isolation I call it) and I have moderate, if tolerant, reservations on some of Michael's views, but a lot of the chunderings hurled at him remind me of a criticism of the Almighty that has had some currency in recent years: "Sure He created Heaven and Earth, but what has he done for us lately?" Right, of course! As certain comments in this thread pointed out, PG isn't ALL MH's output! Who cares for him? Some of the guys who have done yeoman work are barely acknowledged, and some of them disagree with some of his views as well! Cheeeeeze!!! I doubt that Michael takes much of that sort of input more seriously than I do, but they do leave me wondering why some of those guys stick around. It is not so much a question of who is "right" or "wrong", but of personal attitude. They seem to me so much at right angles to the spirit and much of the intent of PG (and largely of each other as well). And they are pretty ineffectual too. I haven't seen a great deal of change in PG's overall structure develop out of their niggles. Nor in any other human initiatives' structures either. Oh well, fortunately I can delete their whingeings and snappings faster than they can write them. Now look at me, for example. I don't waste time on trivialities like trying to change PG; I concentrate on important things like calendar digitisation. So far no one has been listening to me, but just wait till I get the Earth's orbit properly synchronised! THEN they will be sorry, ALL of them! They have to adopt my new calendar for certain!!! (And so far everyone has thought that climate change was all AGW! Heee heee!) Merry Barmitzva or eid, or Xmiss, or whatever it might be, Jon From sly at victoria.tc.ca Fri Dec 4 08:21:25 2009 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:21:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks In-Reply-To: <4B18C836.3030401@telkomsa.net> References: <4B18C836.3030401@telkomsa.net> Message-ID: Thank you Jon. That's the most coherant, well-argued, thought-provoking, enlightening post I've read here recently. --Andrew :) On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Jon Richfield wrote: > > Now look at me, for example. I don't waste time on trivialities like > trying to change PG; I concentrate on important things like calendar > digitisation. So far no one has been listening to me, but just wait > till I get the Earth's orbit properly synchronised! THEN they will be > sorry, ALL of them! They have to adopt my new calendar for certain!!! > (And so far everyone has thought that climate change was all AGW! Heee > heee!) > > Merry Barmitzva or eid, or Xmiss, or whatever it might be, > From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Dec 4 12:35:44 2009 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:35:44 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks Message-ID: jon richfield said: > So far no one has been listening to me, but just wait > till I get the Earth's orbit properly synchronised! > THEN they will be sorry, ALL of them! > They have to adopt my new calendar for certain! jon, i want to buy michael hart a present for the holidaze... is there someplace online where i can order your calendar? i'd like the swimsuit edition, please. thank you ever so much. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joey at joeysmith.com Fri Dec 4 13:28:08 2009 From: joey at joeysmith.com (Joey Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 14:28:08 -0700 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks In-Reply-To: <4B18C836.3030401@telkomsa.net> References: <4B18C836.3030401@telkomsa.net> Message-ID: <20091204212808.GA23362@joeysmith.com> On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 10:28:38AM +0200, Jon Richfield wrote: > I haven't seen a great deal of change in PG's overall structure > develop out of their niggles. Nor in any other human initiatives' > structures either. I have never had a problem with MH or Greg, but I can certainly tell you that once upon a time, I was interested in being more than a "voice" in the PG community - I tried to help in several different areas. However, there's a strange sense of glaciation and organizational conservatism that really stymied all of my efforts to see PG change. Maybe that's for the best - I can believe that there are some people in PG that are of the opinion that "it's not broke, so quit trying to fix it". However, speaking for a few of us that tried (and ultimately failed) to become more involved, it was both disheartening and demotivating - and when you care about a cause, and it feels like you're offering up your soul for them to examine, it can end up feeling like you've been personally rejected. I mention this only because it might help others understand why they might sometimes feel negative things about individual members of PG, etc. I can say it's definitely part of what makes it so hard for me to hold a rational conversation with BB. Maybe instead of attacking the people who are running PG, you could spend your efforts in a parallel project such as what manybooks has done, or just find some other passion to pour yourself into. At least that way, it would mean one fewer person who MH might feel was attacking *him*. From jimad at msn.com Fri Dec 4 10:37:43 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:37:43 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: <4B154873.2000005@perathoner.de> References: <20091123183330.GA19309@pglaf.org> <4B0BE28D.1080007@perathoner.de> <4B154873.2000005@perathoner.de> Message-ID: > - if you have an online reader there's a much better alternative: > http://code.google.com/p/openpub/wiki/OPDS Some day, maybe, and until then? >If you have an epub catalog you qualify as Independent Search Site. Just >include a link to the gutenberg main page in some prominent place. I include such a link on the HTML version of the site, and I include an inactive link to the PG site in the Magic Catalog, because again, the reason I created a Magic Catalog is because again the PG site doesn't work from small e-book readers, so having an active link to the PG site wouldn't be helpful. >Reading helps understanding. It says 'with images' which is not the same >as 'illustrated'. OK, assuming one is willing to tolerate not having drop caps if one doesn't want illustrations, then "images" and "illustrations" becomes the same thing which again begs the same question how is PG able to tell if a book has images and/or illustrations in order to be able to generate a web page like the one in question? >Get a wiki account and just do it. Maybe after this sticky tar pit known as "Xmas." From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Dec 4 15:08:32 2009 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 18:08:32 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) Message-ID: >? ? http://code.google.com/p/openpub/wiki/OPDS o.p.d.s. is another project from the acronym kids, and it is likely to be limited to .epub books only... (in its first incarnation, that was explicitly the case; i think they've relaxed that restriction since then, but i don't expect they will actually do any work to support anything other than .epub in the long run.) and since this bunch is now aligned _with_ adobe, which means _against_ amazon, i'd guess that the o.p.d.s. stuff won't interface nicely with the kindle. just so you know... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimad at msn.com Fri Dec 4 15:27:24 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:27:24 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> yes, but one doesn't read books using that browser. >_I_ do, and I do it as part of my demonstrations all the time, from large screens, to laptops, to netbooks, to cellphones, to Palms and other PDA's. >People love it!!! *Sigh* -- might be nice if one of you actually invested in an ebook reader and try using it. Preferably the Kindle simply because that has the largest ownership and is generally the most capable. Why do people buy an ebook reader when presumably they also almost all also own a computer with an HTML browser? Answer: the ebook reader gives a better more book-like reading experience. Why MOBI or EPUB format and not HTML? Because MOBI and EPUB formats understand what is necessary to make an ebook reader "book-like experience" work IN PRACTICE -- HTML does not. Here's an example: I start reading some PG book using HTML format on my laptop while I am at the airport. I get on the plane. I have to turn off the laptop. When the seatbelt light goes off I bring out my laptop to continue reading the PG book. Does it work? PROBABLY NOT! Here's a counterexample: I have a copy of Magic Catalog in my Kindle. I am at the airport. I open Magic Catalog. I find I book I want to read. I click on the book. Automagically the book downloads to my Kindle. I get on the plane. I have to turn off the Kindle. When the seatbelt light goes off I bring out my Kindle to continue reading the PG book. Does it work? YES! Why? Because Ebook Readers and MOBI and EPUB formats understand what is necessary to give readers a "book-like experience." HTML doesn't -- because HTML was never designed to give a book-like experience. Neither was PDF -- PDF is designed to allow printers to print documents in a reliable fixed format. Why do people in the Ebook community continue to trash PG and get their free ebooks elsewhere -- even when those ebooks are derived from PG works? Because PG continues to not understand Ebooks and what it is all about. It seems silly to me given all the excitement around ebooks and ebook readers and given that the books are coming from PG volunteers to begin with that PG doesn't do the last 1/10th of 1% of what is necessary to get it to work with ebook readers. Should the existing PG site work with the built-in browsers in Kindle or some other ebook reader? Maybe it should, or maybe it shouldn't -- but the fact remains that IT DOESN'T -- it comes out looking like a hopeless and unusable hash. Other sites DO work, for example mnybks.net and freekindlebooks.org -- Why? Because the creators of those sites own ebook readers, care about ebook readers, and most importantly care about the owners of ebook readers. From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Dec 4 15:32:03 2009 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 18:32:03 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] we'll talk about formats next week Message-ID: since david rothman brought it up before thanksgiving, i was gonna talk about formats, even before turkey-day. but then time ran short, and i didn't want to plug up everybody's e-mailboxes during the long weekend... so i was gonna talk about it this week, but held back because they're having some interesting discussions over on the distributed proofreader forum boards... but i promise i'll get to it _first_thing_ next week, ok? :+) and if you'd like to refresh yourself with that dialog about .epub over at the d.p. forums, here's the u.r.l.: > http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=41237&start=0 and here's where the conversation picked up after thanksgiving: > http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=618157#618157 or, if you want to examine the place where it turns philosophical: > http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=620316#620316 -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Dec 4 15:37:41 2009 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 18:37:41 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) Message-ID: jim- you complain that the p.g. people aren't listening or trying to help you. i'm listening to you, and trying to help you, but you aren't listening back, or responding to the questions that i've asked about what you want. that's kind of ironic, don't you think? :+) -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimad at msn.com Fri Dec 4 15:47:22 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:47:22 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >jim is asking for a new construction, to make it easy >for those reader-machines to download your books. There are two separate ideas I have suggested: Make "friendly" versions of the landing-pad pages that don't have frames nor images nor a lot of extra goop that is compatible with ebook readers and other small format devices. Make a "friendly" version of the PG website that doesn't have frames nor images nor a lot of extra goop that is compatible with ebook readers and other small format devices. [mnybks.net being an example of this second approach] >the easiest way -- which is what i just suggested -- >is to link to some "deep" pages on the site, but that >has been "officially discouraged" by your webmaster, >at least in the past, and sometimes it gets enforced. Again, Magic Catalog, in either MOBI or EPUB format at http://www.freekindlebooks.org/MagicCatalog/magiccatalog.html, is an example of such a "deep linking." I'd rather that it use ebook reader friendly landing pad pages, rather than direct "deep linking" but one cannot use something that doesn't exist. No offense, but it seems silly to "officially discourage" something when one is not willing to provide a viable alternative. Or else, simply admit that PG continues to remain hostile to the ebook community - which to me is also seems silly - every machine and every machine manufacturer, whether it is Dell, or Apple, or Mickysoft, or Amazon, or Sony, or what have you - each of these machines and manufacturers comes with its own particular mix of good and evil, and it seems to me the best approach is for PG to remain agnostic to the users choice of reader machine - and to try to support those machines which people are *actually* reading books on! Certainly the idea that cellphone companies don't come with their own mix of good and evil is highly laughable! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimad at msn.com Fri Dec 4 16:57:48 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 16:57:48 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Sorry, CONTENT is what Project Gutenberg provides but not FORMAT, >FORM, FORMALITY, etc. Strange. I volunteer my 40+ hours to make and donate a book to PG and the Whitewashers don't complain about the accuracy of my CONTENT, but rather that my FORMAT doesn't in turn match THEIR idea of what the "correct" FORMAT is -- which in turn is something different than the format guides published on the PG site. Again, let me donate content in MY choice of format rather than asking me to mind-read the Whitewashers ideas of "correct" format and then let other volunteers do the last 1% to get the book into THEIR choice of format. Better yet, let volunteers like myself take YOUR [or the whitewashers] choice of format, change that format to a format that actually works on our machines, and resubmit it to the PG website so that people can simply read PG books on their favorite choice of machines, rather than having to "fix" a PG book each time before it can be read on our choice of machines. Even a 1% "fixup" [about a half hours needless busywork] assumes a knowledge of ebook authoring tools -- and patience -- that most book readers simply do not have. I buy a paperback book, I open the front cover and start reading. No 1% "fixup" is required. I buy [or acquire free] an ebook. I open the cover and start reading. No 1% "fixup" is required. What I and I think most readers are asking for is something pretty simple: A book that IN PRACTICE they can read! In my personal, practical experience, PG books frequently fail this simple test. Yes, 99% of the job is done -- yet the book IN PRACTICE remains unreadable! What a terrible waste of volunteer effort, to put that much work into creating CONTENT, and yet still have it unusable IN PRACTICE because of details of "formatting". So on forum after forum I see would-be readers of PG content asking, "Gosh, I just downloaded this book from PG and it almost works on my machine but not quite so how do I fix it?" And I reply "yes you can fix it but if you go to alternative site XYZ you will find that that site probably has the PG content already 'fixed' by some dedicated volunteers so that it will actually offer a pleasant and usable reading experience for you." If I might make a comparison: Microsoft Software is also 99% correct -- so why do customers keep complaining? Answer: Because it doesn't in practice work for them! PS: Both HTML and TXT file formats can be easily shown to be "write only" formats -- neither in practice allows the end user to "fix" all the problems that one may in practice run into using the books in either of these formats. From jimad at msn.com Fri Dec 4 17:17:27 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 17:17:27 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks In-Reply-To: <20091204212808.GA23362@joeysmith.com> References: <4B18C836.3030401@telkomsa.net> <20091204212808.GA23362@joeysmith.com> Message-ID: >.... Maybe instead of attacking the people who are running >PG, you could spend your efforts in a parallel project such as what manybooks >has done, or just find some other passion to pour yourself into. I think that some of us have done that. I have created several books personally for PG. I have submitted several to DP. I answer volunteer questions on many websites about how to "fix" PG books to make them work on your choice of machine. I tell people where they can get copies of PG books already "fixed" for their machines. I provided 25,000 translations of PG books in MOBI format over the course of two years work before PG finally decided to start supporting the format directly, etc. I just think it's silly that I and others have to put so much time and effort into "routing around damage" when it would be so much less time and effort for PG to wake up, get on the ball, and bring their site and organization up to date instead of living in the past. What I want is something very simple: books which IN PRACTICE people can read -- the same way they open the cover of a paperback novel and start reading. I know it can be done because I do it every day. But is PG doing it IN PRACTICE? Nope. And I think that is sad. From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Dec 4 17:21:37 2009 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 20:21:37 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) Message-ID: ok, jim, i downloaded your "magic" catalog. for anyone else who hasn't downloaded it, this "magic" catalog is just a file with a link for every p.g. text. i appended a few lines from it to this e-mail so you can view them. (there's just like what i'd suggested to jim.) anyway, i find that jim's files contain links to all the e-texts in the entire p.g. library. so now i'm perplexed, jim. why don't _you_ just offer the files to the kindle community? you've already _done_ all the work required. sure, i agree with you that it would be better if p.g. itself would just churn out these files, especially since they'd be constantly updated. but if marcello isn't willing to do that for you, why don't you just release your files to the wild? heck, i'd even think you could charge a dollar or two for these files, and release them as kindle-books, available in the kindle store, and make a few bucks to subsidize your work, not to mention help out the whole kindle scene. that is the kind of direct action that michael hart always strongly encourages in the p.g. volunteers. as another thought, i'd suggest that you submit your files to p.g. as an e-text for the p.g. library. -bowerbird

Richard Harding Davis: The Spy

Richard Harding Davis: The Messengers

Richard Harding Davis: A Wasted Day

Richard Harding Davis: A Charmed Life

Richard Harding Davis: The Amateur

Richard Harding Davis: The Make-Believe Man

-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimad at msn.com Fri Dec 4 19:21:51 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 19:21:51 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, but I went back over my emails and I don't see where you asked me questions, or I didn't understand they were questions or something, so obviously, one way or another, I've missed something. Please ask the questions again. i'm listening to you, and trying to help you, but you aren't listening back, or responding to the questions that i've asked about what you want. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimad at msn.com Fri Dec 4 19:40:14 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 19:40:14 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >so now i'm perplexed, jim. why don't _you_ >just offer the files to the kindle community? Not sure I understand the question, but I think I have already offered the files to the Kindle community. See freekindlebooks.org - A site I created a couple years ago when PG said it wasn't interested in supporting the ebook community. Now PG decided it DOES want to offer EPUB and MOBI file format support. So then I say, OK now that you are offering EPUB and MOBI file format support, why not go the last 1% of the way and do what is necessary to *really* make it useful to the ebook community? But when I ask that question, I get beaten up. Which I don't understand. Its not that I am just being impossible. It's that I really don't understand WHY PG WOULDN'T want to support the ebook community? To me ebook readers are the obvious and natural way to be reading PG texts. As opposed to what, printing them out on your teletype? Or dragging around a laptop and tied to a WIFI connection so you can read in HTML format doesn't seem like a particularly happy reading experience to me! And reading through the peephole of a cellphone makes as much sense to me as distributing PG texts one line at a time via fortune cookies. If one is going thru the pain and trouble of making electronic texts, why not make them as pleasant and fun to read as a paperback novel? heck, i'd even think you could charge a dollar or two for these files, and release them as kindle-books, available in the kindle store, and make a few bucks to subsidize your work, not to mention help out the whole kindle scene. Don't need the buck here and there actually, -- but you need only look at the amazon.com Kindle books section to see that 100s of other people are doing exactly what you suggest. My counter-question would be if PG is doing 99% of the work already, why not put in the last 1% so that PG gets the credit for the good work and can put a link in there that says "hey if you like PG's good work then how about making a small donation to PG [as opposed to donating to Amazon -- which takes the lion's share of the fees from downloaded books from their website] ??? Gosh, I work hard to try to get donations for PG and I just get told what an evil person I am! Again, all I want is free electronic books that are easy and pleasant to read - in honest to god practice not in theory! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sly at victoria.tc.ca Fri Dec 4 20:37:27 2009 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 20:37:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, James Adcock wrote: > And reading through the peephole of a > cellphone makes as much sense to me as distributing PG texts one line at a > time via fortune cookies. Nice simile. Thanks--made my night. --Andrew From richfield at telkomsa.net Fri Dec 4 22:45:52 2009 From: richfield at telkomsa.net (Jon Richfield) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 08:45:52 +0200 Subject: [gutvol-d] This probably has been mooted repeatedly, but my memory... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B1A01A0.1040408@telkomsa.net> Someone (BB?) said something about asking the likes of Kindle and GBks for a morsel on account for all the work that PG has put in so far. Someone else said that he did not need the odd dollar. MH MIGHT argue (or not, I am not putting words into his mouth) that getting paid would go against the principles of PG. Well, yesss... but the freeness of our products was intended for people to whom this sort of thing matters. If Googlebooks and Amazon could subsidise PG to the tune of a couple of hundred K / year, they could win much goodwill and transform the PG infrastructure. They would, at trivial cost, increase their resources of independently produced material. I realise that they want their own formats, but the main problem in book digitisation is not conversion of format, but capturing of edited material. It would be worth it for them. And if one of the companies accepted, and the other refused, the political implications would be most uncomfortable. Just thinking. Maybe I'd better stick to thinking about calenders... (had to say that before someone else did... ;-) ) Jon From sly at victoria.tc.ca Fri Dec 4 22:56:59 2009 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 22:56:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: This probably has been mooted repeatedly, but my memory... In-Reply-To: <4B1A01A0.1040408@telkomsa.net> References: <4B1A01A0.1040408@telkomsa.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, Jon Richfield wrote: > Someone (BB?) said something about asking the likes of Kindle and GBks > for a morsel on account for all the work that PG has put in so far. > Someone else said that he did not need the odd dollar. MH MIGHT argue > (or not, I am not putting words into his mouth) that getting paid would > go against the principles of PG. If I recall correctly, the argument I've heard is that there is no problem with PG _receiving_ funding, but a strong desire to make sure that it would not then turn into an organization that _depends on_ funding. (which could be withdrawn at any time.) > Well, yesss... but the freeness of our products was intended for people > to whom this sort of thing matters. If Googlebooks and Amazon could > subsidise PG to the tune of a couple of hundred K / year, they could win > much goodwill and transform the PG infrastructure. They would, at > trivial cost, increase their resources of independently produced > material. I realise that they want their own formats, but the main > problem in book digitisation is not conversion of format, but capturing > of edited material. It would be worth it for them. And if one of the > companies accepted, and the other refused, the political implications > would be most uncomfortable. Hmmm.... that's a thought-provoking idea. It sounds great at first read. One contrary argument could be something like this: We are still very much a group of volunteers. As you may have noticed on this list, that can include much bickering, and so forth, but somehow things get done. If there were actually a good-sized cash infusion, I am very sure there would be a plethora of different ideas and much arguing about what to do with it... And of course, it would actually be the board that would have to officially do that, which would be a change from their "just stay in the background" usual way of doing things. --Andrew From richfield at telkomsa.net Fri Dec 4 23:07:09 2009 From: richfield at telkomsa.net (Jon Richfield) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 09:07:09 +0200 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks In-Reply-To: References: <4B18C836.3030401@telkomsa.net> Message-ID: <4B1A069D.7040000@telkomsa.net> Thanks Andrew, Your appreciation much appreciated. As I was saying to Giordano Bruno just the other day, we innovators work in the face of unreasonable opposition and hot resentment. Your encouragement moves me to sell the idea to Bill G. BB, Sorry, but publication of the swimming pool issue of the calendar has been delayed by the international kerfuffel about hi-tech bathing costumes. Bloody interfering Phelps and his lot! I am thinking of dropping the whole business in favour of solar powered topees exploiting the extra UVB that comes in through the ozone holes. Even if pessimists prove correct in claiming that the increased flux of high energy photons cannot sufficiently power personal flight through helicopter blades attached to the helmets, they should be able to support head-mounted kindles for people to read while commuting through the traffic on their solar-cycles. Cheers all, Jon > Thank you Jon. > > That's the most coherant, well-argued, thought-provoking, > enlightening post I've read here recently. > > --Andrew :) > > On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Jon Richfield wrote: > > >> Now look at me, for example. I don't waste time on trivialities like >> trying to change PG; I concentrate on important things like calendar >> digitisation. So far no one has been listening to me, but just wait >> till I get the Earth's orbit properly synchronised! THEN they will be >> sorry, ALL of them! They have to adopt my new calendar for certain!!! >> (And so far everyone has thought that climate change was all AGW! Heee >> heee!) >> >> Merry Barmitzva or eid, or Xmiss, or whatever it might be, >> >> > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > > From hart at pglaf.org Fri Dec 4 23:41:19 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 23:41:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Andrew Sly wrote: > > On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, James Adcock wrote: > > > And reading through the peephole of a > > cellphone makes as much sense to me as distributing PG texts one line at a > > time via fortune cookies. > > Nice simile. Thanks--made my night. > > --Andrew I thought so, too, at least for many people, until I saw a 73 year old lady read on one-- and commenting how easy it was. . . . Personally, I thought this would be a larger generation gap situation until then, but now it seems more likely that some people are in some ways just closed minded. Of course, there ARE people for whom reading in any "normal" format is very difficult and we should not belittle them. However, with automatic scrolling, etc., the whole "fortune cookie" idea dissolves into a "Diamand Age" "media glyph" that Hackworth's career was based on. It's hard to argue that people don't read on cellphones, since they do it all the time in greater and greater numbers, to read greater and greater amounts. You might as well fight against Twitter, and all the rest. From hart at pglaf.org Sat Dec 5 00:05:33 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 00:05:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Some Things I Like the Best and the Least About eBooks In-Reply-To: <20091204212808.GA23362@joeysmith.com> References: <4B18C836.3030401@telkomsa.net> <20091204212808.GA23362@joeysmith.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Joey Smith wrote: > On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 10:28:38AM +0200, Jon Richfield wrote: > > I haven't seen a great deal of change in PG's overall structure > > develop out of their niggles. Nor in any other human initiatives' > > structures either. > > I have never had a problem with MH or Greg, but I can certainly tell > you that once upon a time, I was interested in being more than a "voice" > in the PG community - I tried to help in several different areas. However, > there's a strange sense of glaciation and organizational conservatism that > really stymied all of my efforts to see PG change. Maybe that's for the > best - I can believe that there are some people in PG that are of the > opinion that "it's not broke, so quit trying to fix it". However, speaking for > a few of us that tried (and ultimately failed) to become more involved, it > was both disheartening and demotivating - and when you care about a cause, > and it feels like you're offering up your soul for them to examine, it can > end up feeling like you've been personally rejected. > > I mention this only because it might help others understand why they might > sometimes feel negative things about individual members of PG, etc. I can > say it's definitely part of what makes it so hard for me to hold a rational > conversation with BB. Maybe instead of attacking the people who are running > PG, you could spend your efforts in a parallel project such as what manybooks > has done, or just find some other passion to pour yourself into. At least > that way, it would mean one fewer person who MH might feel was attacking *him*. People have attacked me aplenty since before hardly anyone ever saw eBooks, and as much from those some would think as "insiders" than as "outsiders." I'm used to it, so don't worry about until I yell for help or assistance. Speaking of assistance, I should state for the record that Greg Newby and I offer literally all the assistance we can to ANYONE wanting to set up kinds of "parallel" projects, including fileservers, listservers, email accounts, and even requests for volunteers in our newsletters. We are interested in seeing ALL of these proposal get some real airtime. Our basic suggestions is simply to create a small library of eBooks in what type of format you are interested in, put in some publicity about it, get a number of volunteers to help, and then do larger and larger libraries. Rinse, lather, repeat, until done to your satisfaction. However, you might have to be warned that some of those who make the louder noises about all this refuse any and all offers of assistance, they have it their minds and hearts just to tell other people what to do. Since we are all volunteers here, that doesn't always work so well. However, any ideas YOU want to work on, we'll throw all at our disposal out your direction for you to work with. mh From hart at pglaf.org Sat Dec 5 00:30:04 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 00:30:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: This probably has been mooted repeatedly, but my memory... In-Reply-To: References: <4B1A01A0.1040408@telkomsa.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Andrew Sly wrote: > > On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, Jon Richfield wrote: > > > Someone (BB?) said something about asking the likes of Kindle and GBks > > for a morsel on account for all the work that PG has put in so far. > > Someone else said that he did not need the odd dollar. MH MIGHT argue > > (or not, I am not putting words into his mouth) that getting paid would > > go against the principles of PG. > > If I recall correctly, the argument I've heard is that there is no > problem with PG _receiving_ funding, but a strong desire to make > sure that it would not then turn into an organization that > _depends on_ funding. (which could be withdrawn at any time.) > > > Well, yesss... but the freeness of our products was intended for people > > to whom this sort of thing matters. If Googlebooks and Amazon could > > subsidise PG to the tune of a couple of hundred K / year, they could win > > much goodwill and transform the PG infrastructure. They would, at > > trivial cost, increase their resources of independently produced > > material. I realise that they want their own formats, but the main > > problem in book digitisation is not conversion of format, but capturing > > of edited material. It would be worth it for them. And if one of the > > companies accepted, and the other refused, the political implications > > would be most uncomfortable. > > Hmmm.... that's a thought-provoking idea. It sounds great at > first read. > > One contrary argument could be something like this: > We are still very much a group of volunteers. As you may have noticed > on this list, that can include much bickering, and so forth, > but somehow things get done. If there were actually a good-sized > cash infusion, I am very sure there would be a plethora of > different ideas and much arguing about what to do with it... > And of course, it would actually be the board that would have > to officially do that, which would be a change from their > "just stay in the background" usual way of doing things. > > > --Andrew The board isn't going to up and give you any money to pursue your projects, but rather the online tools with which to pursue them, and all will get the same support, as always, rather than picking one over the other: as always seems to be the dreams of those who would be king. We're all kings here, it's a round table, time to get used to it. Use the tools, we'll provide more tools. However, we'll still stay in the background, you can have all the glory. > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From hart at pglaf.org Sat Dec 5 00:34:58 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 00:34:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: This probably has been mooted repeatedly, but my memory... In-Reply-To: <4B1A01A0.1040408@telkomsa.net> References: <4B1A01A0.1040408@telkomsa.net> Message-ID: Google and Amazon are not interested in this kind of good will. As far as I can tell, from having talked with them about with a lot more personal contact than most, they would just as soon be the ones to "kill the goose that lays the golden eggs," so gold will be all that much rarer and they can charge that much more. I've spent hours talking with them and could not even manage to get 1 penny per book for us. They have no intention of supporting us in any manner at all as per every one of these conversations. Of course, lightning COULD strike. . . . On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, Jon Richfield wrote: > Someone (BB?) said something about asking the likes of Kindle and GBks for a > morsel on account for all the work that PG has put in so far. Someone else > said that he did not need the odd dollar. MH MIGHT argue (or not, I am not > putting words into his mouth) that getting paid would go against the > principles of PG. > > Well, yesss... but the freeness of our products was intended for people to > whom this sort of thing matters. If Googlebooks and Amazon could subsidise PG > to the tune of a couple of hundred K / year, they could win much goodwill and > transform the PG infrastructure. They would, at trivial cost, increase their > resources of independently produced material. I realise that they want their > own formats, but the main problem in book digitisation is not conversion of > format, but capturing of edited material. It would be worth it for them. And > if one of the companies accepted, and the other refused, the political > implications would be most uncomfortable. > > Just thinking. > > Maybe I'd better stick to thinking about calenders... (had to say that before > someone else did... ;-) ) > > Jon > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sat Dec 5 04:51:21 2009 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 04:51:21 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: This probably has been mooted repeatedly, but my memory... In-Reply-To: References: <4B1A01A0.1040408@telkomsa.net> Message-ID: <20091205125121.GA26708@pglaf.org> Andrew: +1 You have things just right. Well said! -- Greg On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 10:56:59PM -0800, Andrew Sly wrote: > > On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, Jon Richfield wrote: > > > Someone (BB?) said something about asking the likes of Kindle and GBks > > for a morsel on account for all the work that PG has put in so far. > > Someone else said that he did not need the odd dollar. MH MIGHT argue > > (or not, I am not putting words into his mouth) that getting paid would > > go against the principles of PG. > > If I recall correctly, the argument I've heard is that there is no > problem with PG _receiving_ funding, but a strong desire to make > sure that it would not then turn into an organization that > _depends on_ funding. (which could be withdrawn at any time.) > > > Well, yesss... but the freeness of our products was intended for people > > to whom this sort of thing matters. If Googlebooks and Amazon could > > subsidise PG to the tune of a couple of hundred K / year, they could win > > much goodwill and transform the PG infrastructure. They would, at > > trivial cost, increase their resources of independently produced > > material. I realise that they want their own formats, but the main > > problem in book digitisation is not conversion of format, but capturing > > of edited material. It would be worth it for them. And if one of the > > companies accepted, and the other refused, the political implications > > would be most uncomfortable. > > Hmmm.... that's a thought-provoking idea. It sounds great at > first read. > > One contrary argument could be something like this: > We are still very much a group of volunteers. As you may have noticed > on this list, that can include much bickering, and so forth, > but somehow things get done. If there were actually a good-sized > cash infusion, I am very sure there would be a plethora of > different ideas and much arguing about what to do with it... > And of course, it would actually be the board that would have > to officially do that, which would be a change from their > "just stay in the background" usual way of doing things. > > > --Andrew > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sat Dec 5 05:06:09 2009 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 05:06:09 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091205130609.GJ27317@pglaf.org> On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 07:40:14PM -0800, James Adcock wrote: > Not sure I understand the question, but I think I have already offered the > files to the Kindle community. See freekindlebooks.org - A site I created a > couple years ago when PG said it wasn't interested in supporting the ebook > community. Now PG decided it DOES want to offer EPUB and MOBI file format > support. So then I say, OK now that you are offering EPUB and MOBI file > format support, why not go the last 1% of the way and do what is necessary > to *really* make it useful to the ebook community? But when I ask that > question, I get beaten up. Which I don't understand. Jim, I sense your frustration. I'll try to explain a couple of things. (I was writing this on a plane, and sending now, but see Michael already said much the same thing.) What you might not realize is that there are really only two people who have access to edit the main content on gutenberg.org: Marcello, and me. I mostly make very small changes, and try not to break things. That's just the way it is -- so, development by additional people, like you, needs to happen elsewhere. There is no "PG" who is doing, or failing to do, things you'd like to see at gutenberg.org. It's simply a lack of a labor pool, and, to some extent, a lack of knowing just what to do (or at least, what YOU'd like done). You've been encouraged in a couple of ways to go for it. If there is something you need to demonstrate your ideas, I will try to help. The only thing I don't have is someone to do it for you, or to pick up on your examples and apply them to gutenberg.org. The thing that motivates Michael, and me, is giving away eBooks. We have taken great pains over the years (Michael since 1971, me since 1991, and with involvement of many other people) to make sure that the colection's contents can continue to be enjoyed for many years in the future. This is where the appearance of resistance to new formats comes from: we have a few formats in the collection that we can no longer easily fix or regenerate, and some (just a few) files for which no contemporary reader exists. So, for a little while, we have been instead emphasizing automatic conversion to new formats -- rather than storing them as part of the main collection. > Its not that I am > just being impossible. It's that I really don't understand WHY PG WOULDN'T > want to support the ebook community? To me ebook readers are the obvious > and natural way to be reading PG texts. As opposed to what, printing them > out on your teletype? Or dragging around a laptop and tied to a WIFI > connection so you can read in HTML format doesn't seem like a particularly > happy reading experience to me! And reading through the peephole of a > cellphone makes as much sense to me as distributing PG texts one line at a > time via fortune cookies. If one is going thru the pain and trouble of > making electronic texts, why not make them as pleasant and fun to read as a > paperback novel? As far as "PG" goes (in the microcosm of where Michael's leadership points us), it's all good. We have never said, "thou shalt only access content with a fully-featured computer." We do have some expectations for files that we add to the collection, but that is behind the scenes. For the humans that want to access an eBook, more methods for more devices are good. Since conversion on the fly often offers an easy way to provide immediate access to different formats, or even different converters for the same format, it can be quite easy to add a new converter. In this thread, we've been talking about transforming the rest of the site (not just the eBooks, but also stuff like the catalog pages and Wiki pages) so it is friendlier for eReaders and other devices. Marcello does have some plans for this, but there is room for more than one implementation...and for experimentation. I think my main message is: It's important not to mistake the debate & cricitism on gutvol-d, or elsewhere, as somehow stopping you from doing things. Or from those things to become "official." Also, on deep linking (a comment from another message you sent): Marcello already mentioned that there are exceptions, and your sites qualify. Go ahead & do it. > heck, i'd even think you could charge a dollar > or two for these files, and release them as > kindle-books, available in the kindle store, > and make a few bucks to subsidize your work, > not to mention help out the whole kindle scene. Again, go for it. Charging money for content isn't PG's bailiwick, but don't let that stop you. At least a few people make or made a reasonable portion of their livelihood with PG content. It's ok to do, and we'll even link to your site. More: http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg:Permission_How-To -- Greg Newby Dr. Gregory B. Newby Chief Executive and Director Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation http://gutenberg.org A 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization with EIN 64-6221541 gbnewby at pglaf.org > Don't need the buck here and there actually, -- but you need only look at > the amazon.com Kindle books section to see that 100s of other people are > doing exactly what you suggest. My counter-question would be if PG is doing > 99% of the work already, why not put in the last 1% so that PG gets the > credit for the good work and can put a link in there that says "hey if you > like PG's good work then how about making a small donation to PG [as opposed > to donating to Amazon -- which takes the lion's share of the fees from > downloaded books from their website] ??? Gosh, I work hard to try to get > donations for PG and I just get told what an evil person I am! Again, all I > want is free electronic books that are easy and pleasant to read - in honest > to god practice not in theory! From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sat Dec 5 06:11:06 2009 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 06:11:06 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Fwd: Android audio book listener BookDroid available for Project Gutenberg Message-ID: <20091205141106.GB31067@pglaf.org> Of possible interest: ----- Forwarded message from santtu.syrjala at absent.fi ----- From: santtu.syrjala at absent.fi To: help at pglaf.org Subject: Android audio book listener BookDroid available for Project Gutenberg Hi Project Gutenberg team! We have created an audio book listener for Android platform that links to your website within it's internal browser so users can download your books for it. For more information about the application see : http://www.absent.fi/mobile/bookdroid/ We thank You for Your marvelous service to provide free books for people! Please send a reply if you wish to get the program free for You if you have Android enabled devices within Your team. We will provide the application installer and registration key to You. Thank you, --- Santtu Syrj?l? Development Manager Absent Oy www.absent.fi ----- End forwarded message ----- From pterandon at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 09:01:47 2009 From: pterandon at gmail.com (Greg M. Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 12:01:47 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Formats and gripes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I observed a bunch of things in the PG collection that were somewhere between maddening deficiencies in quality and simply how I wouldn't have done things. I could have made inflammatory demands that the whole system be rewrought according to my word. Instead I came up with my own custom DVD. And I'll testify that MH in discussing the idea was annoyingly non-paternalistic in not telling me how it had to be. ;) So, when someone complains, it is great when they can just go fix something themselves. There's the story of the king who demanded the whole world be covered in soft leather to keep his foot from being struck on a stone. Maybe someone should come up with a custom DVD with all the good works in EPUB format. I would respect PG if it were to refuse to host any and all of these bleeding edge formats. But I would love to be given the authority to create a raw text format without the 80-char line breaks. I agree that having these breaks (in the only TXT format available ) makes them unusable. The first-time visitor to PG probably won't be impressed that tools may be available to fix it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bowerbird at aol.com Sat Dec 5 10:40:10 2009 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 13:40:10 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page Message-ID: greg said: > You've been encouraged in a couple of ways to go for it. > If there is something you need to demonstrate your ideas, > I will try to help.? The only thing I don't have is > someone to do it for you, or to pick up on your examples > and apply them to gutenberg.org. i didn't understand sufficiently at first, and others do not sufficiently understand yet, as represented by greg's autopilot response, but jim has already _done_ all of the work... the files are even now sitting on his website. as such, they can be accessed there, it is true. but i guess jim thinks -- and i would agree -- that they will have greater prominence if they were to be posted on the p.g. website itself... plus, of course, the files need to be updated as new e-texts are released. but that process could be managed with a script that's trivial... jim shrouded his request in a plethora of moans, but at base he's really not asking for much at all. show you take his work seriously. post his files. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcello at perathoner.de Sat Dec 5 12:39:15 2009 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 21:39:15 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: This probably has been mooted repeatedly, but my memory... In-Reply-To: References: <4B1A01A0.1040408@telkomsa.net> Message-ID: <4B1AC4F3.1070703@perathoner.de> Michael S. Hart wrote: > The board isn't going to up and give you any money to pursue your projects, > but rather the online tools with which to pursue them, It will give you an account on a server. You could also ask ibiblio and you will get an account on a better server. Or you could rent your own server for $5 a month. The board will give you no money because it doesn't have any. It doesn't want any because having any would probably draw some question re. the legitimation of `the board?, like, who are those guys? when did we elect them? > We're all kings here, it's a round table, time to get used to it. Ah, that explains the frequency of elections. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From hart at pglaf.org Sat Dec 5 15:03:40 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 15:03:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: This probably has been mooted repeatedly, but my memory... In-Reply-To: <4B1AC4F3.1070703@perathoner.de> References: <4B1A01A0.1040408@telkomsa.net> <4B1AC4F3.1070703@perathoner.de> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Michael S. Hart wrote: > > > The board isn't going to up and give you any money to pursue your projects, > > but rather the online tools with which to pursue them, > > It will give you an account on a server. You could also ask ibiblio and you > will get an account on a better server. Or you could rent your own server for > $5 a month. And we will still be glad to give your efforts publicity, volunteer requests, programs, listservers and support, fileservers and support, etc. I'm sure Marcello can tell you a hundred places you can get it better/cheaper. Right Marcello? [Then why do you say such things?] > The board will give you no money because it doesn't have any. It doesn't want > any because having any would probably draw some question re. the legitimation > of `the board?, like, who are those guys? when did we elect them? As has been proven before, our volunteers can create their own boards, raise money, and all that, just as Distributed Proofreaders did. We would be more than happy to help with that, as well. I'm sure Marcello would be happy to help you just as much. > > We're all kings here, it's a round table, time to get used to it. > > Ah, that explains the frequency of elections. You're all elected!!! Congratulations!!! Now get out there and DO IT!!! GO! GO!! GO!!! From hart at pglaf.org Sat Dec 5 15:41:16 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 15:41:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So many people make the same mistake, myself included, mea culpa. They do 99% of the work and then expect the world to beat a path to their doorstep to get their new mousetrap. As that wisest of all modern philosophers says: "It ain't over 'til it's over." mh On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > greg said: > >?? You've been encouraged in a couple of ways to go for it. > >?? If there is something you need to demonstrate your ideas, > >?? I will try to help.? The only thing I don't have is > >?? someone to do it for you, or to pick up on your examples > >?? and apply them to gutenberg.org. > > i didn't understand sufficiently at first, and > others do not sufficiently understand yet, > as represented by greg's autopilot response, > but jim has already _done_ all of the work... > > the files are even now sitting on his website. > > as such, they can be accessed there, it is true. > > but i guess jim thinks -- and i would agree -- > that they will have greater prominence if they > were to be posted on the p.g. website itself... > > plus, of course, the files need to be updated > as new e-texts are released.? but that process > could be managed with a script that's trivial... > > jim shrouded his request in a plethora of moans, > but at base he's really not asking for much at all. > > show you take his work seriously.? post his files. > > -bowerbird > > From hart at pglaf.org Sat Dec 5 15:52:41 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 15:52:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Formats and gripes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, Greg M. Johnson wrote: > > I observed a bunch of things in the PG collection that were somewhere between maddening deficiencies in > quality and simply how I wouldn't have done things. I could have made inflammatory demands that the whole > system be rewrought according to my word. Instead I came up with my own custom DVD. By the way, Greg Newby is still anxiously awaiting some snail mail or instructions on downloading this or other collections you have!!! > And I'll testify that MH > in discussing the idea was annoyingly non-paternalistic in not telling me how it had to be.? ;) I'm afraid this is the major complaint I receive. . .that I won't tell people what to do unless and until they totally go out of their way to convince me-- and even then they don't seem to like it very much. > So, when someone complains, it is great when they can just go fix something themselves. There's the story of > the king who demanded the whole world be covered in soft leather to keep his foot from being struck on a > stone. Maybe someone should come up with a custom DVD with all the good works in EPUB format. We have had any number of people come up with wonderful alternatives!!! Let's have more!!! > I would respect PG if it were to refuse to host any and all of these bleeding edge formats.? But I would > love to be given the authority to create a raw text format without the 80-char line breaks. I agree that > having these breaks (in the only TXT format available ) makes them unusable. The first-time visitor to PG > probably won't be impressed that tools may be available to fix it. > > > From jimad at msn.com Sat Dec 5 22:38:18 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 22:38:18 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >i didn't understand sufficiently at first, and >others do not sufficiently understand yet, >as represented by greg's autopilot response, >but jim has already _done_ all of the work... Again, a brief history of this whole episode was: 1) A couple years ago the first Kindle comes out 2) I say wow this is a better reading experience than I've experienced before 3) I check on the PG website and it has literally a couple MOBI files on it 4) I contact PG and say okay I am making MOBI files out of your books, how do I add them to your site? 5) PG responds Not Interested, Not Interested, Not Interested! 6) I say OK, I guess I will have to route around damage. 7) I spend two years converting PG books to MOBI format on my own website. 8) PG says, gosh, we guess we are interested after all! 9) I say, gee, this is silly, we are duplicating work, and furthermore PG is better set up to do this work anyway. 10) I suggest, PG site doesn't work worth a dang from Mobile devices, why not make a version of the site that is Mobile Device friendly - just like the big boys do? 11) And/Or make a Mobile Device friendly version of your "Landing Pads" so PG can at least get the donations and credits greatly due PG? 12) PG responds again Not Interested, Not Interested, Not Interested! Again, how IS one supposed to read PG books? I mean this as a SERIOUS question! Print them out? -- Cheaper and more environmentally friendly to buy the paperback version at B&N Read them on a laptop? - Too big fat and heavy to carry on the bus. Read them on your cellphone? - Maybe, if you spend a couple hundred bucks on your cellphone plus maybe $100 a month for internet access from your local cellphone company. And if your style of reading is amenable to the "fortune cookie" problem - my style of reading ISN'T - I read bigger chunks than that. I don't disagree that there are readers out there that read "word at a time" or "line at a time" and to them maybe the "fortune cookie" program ISN'T a problem to them - but to me it is. Not to mention that I don't like spending big bucks on monthly cellphone bills! Read them on a netbook? -- Maybe, but I'm suspicious of the eventual eyestrain -- I will be trying this approach to make a "generic" reader. Also, netbooks won't lie flat, and are kind of on the big fat and heavy side compared to a book. Why do I like the Kindle? -- It allows me to actually read books, and read books without eyestrain, and allows me to "get into" my reading just like I get into reading a paperback. Its not that the Kindle is perfect, nor Amazon perfect - they both got some pretty big problems, including overly obnoxious DRM schemes. But, in practice, "it works" where for me "it works" includes the idea that one doesn't always have to run home and tether one's ebook reader to a desktop every time you want to get a new book to read. Waiting to see the B&N reader in the bookstore to see how well it works - seems to me the B&N WiFi approach might be better than the Kindle Whispernet approach, but there are goofy aspects to the B&N reader too. And in the next year there is going to be about a dozen more interesting ebook readers coming out. Why all this interest in ebook readers? People like them. People use them. People buy them. People buy books for them. People read books on them. In short, because it works. And technology where one can actually say "it works" is really a pretty rare thing! That's why I'm excited by ebook readers - because it actually makes projects like PG begin to make sense! [And they are really fun! Don't really know why - they just are!] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From klofstrom at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 22:50:52 2009 From: klofstrom at gmail.com (Karen Lofstrom) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 20:50:52 -1000 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e8e65080912052250l60d14dffvede0cdab91663583@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 8:38 PM, James Adcock wrote: > Again, how IS one supposed to read PG books? I mean this as a SERIOUS question! I download all my books from Manybooks.net and send ebook newbies there too. They take all the PG texts and provide them in various device-friendly formats. As far as I'm concerned, PG is just a rest stop on the way to Manybooks. -- Karen Lofstrom about 55,000 pages proofed at DP From jimad at msn.com Sat Dec 5 22:56:25 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 22:56:25 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >They do 99% of the work and then expect the world to beat a path to their doorstep to get their new mousetrap. According to page hits, about 100,000 books a month are downloaded from my site, which is a small site compared to other sites such as manybooks.net (mnybks.net) -- and this is after I started trying to actively redirect users of my site back to PG once PG started offering MOBI and EPUB directly. That doesn't count downloads via "Magic Catalog" which count as hits at PG. So, it's not that people don't know about ebook reader sites offering free books -- although I suspect MOST users of Kindle don't know that free books exist that they could be reading. Rather it's that PG chooses to isolate itself from the ebook community because PG has something better. I haven't figured out what that is yet, but I keep hearing that PG has something better. Again, I make a simple suggestion: Get a Kindle and try using it with the PG website. You will find that it really doesn't work with the PG website. Then try using the Kindle on other websites that support Mobile Devices and see that it does work on other websites. From hart at pglaf.org Sat Dec 5 23:17:11 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 23:17:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, James Adcock wrote: > >They do 99% of the work and then expect the world to beat a path to their > doorstep to get their new mousetrap. > > According to page hits, about 100,000 books a month are downloaded from my > site, which is a small site compared to other sites such as manybooks.net > (mnybks.net) -- and this is after I started trying to actively redirect > users of my site back to PG once PG started offering MOBI and EPUB directly. > > That doesn't count downloads via "Magic Catalog" which count as hits at PG. > > So, it's not that people don't know about ebook reader sites offering free > books -- although I suspect MOST users of Kindle don't know that free books > exist that they could be reading. > > Rather it's that PG chooses to isolate itself from the ebook community > because PG has something better. I haven't figured out what that is yet, > but I keep hearing that PG has something better. > > Again, I make a simple suggestion: Get a Kindle and try using it with the PG > website. You will find that it really doesn't work with the PG website. > Then try using the Kindle on other websites that support Mobile Devices and > see that it does work on other websites. I think we are still miscommunicating on this. I, and Greg I am sure, would LOVE to put a mirror of your site on PG! Even to the point of redirecting all the traffic here, just to make a more permanent site for you with no expenses, etc. You can continue, exactly as before, and/or add new volunters to help you do even more. Michael From hart at pglaf.org Sat Dec 5 23:20:35 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 23:20:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: <1e8e65080912052250l60d14dffvede0cdab91663583@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e8e65080912052250l60d14dffvede0cdab91663583@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, Karen Lofstrom wrote: > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 8:38 PM, James Adcock wrote: > > > Again, how IS one supposed to read PG books? I mean this as a SERIOUS question! > > I download all my books from Manybooks.net and send ebook newbies > there too. They take all the PG texts and provide them in various > device-friendly formats. As far as I'm concerned, PG is just a rest > stop on the way to Manybooks. I was talking about eBook readers at Borders today and mentioned PG, Archive, manybooks.org, etc., saying that each one had its advantages. One thing I learned, is that apparently we have to restate our case for FREE eBooks, as the media seems to have muddied that up quite a bit. . . . mh From hart at pglaf.org Sat Dec 5 23:46:03 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 23:46:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, James Adcock wrote: > > >i didn't understand sufficiently at first, and > >others do not sufficiently understand yet, > >as represented by greg's autopilot response, > >but jim has already _done_ all of the work... > > ? > > Again, a brief history of this whole episode was: > > ? > > 1)????? A couple years ago the first Kindle comes out > > 2)????? I say wow this is a better reading experience than I?ve experienced before > > 3)????? I check on the PG website and it has literally a couple MOBI files on it > > 4)????? I contact PG and say okay I am making MOBI files out of your books, how do I add them to your site? > > 5)????? PG responds Not Interested, Not Interested, Not Interested! > > 6)????? I say OK, I guess I will have to route around damage. > > 7)????? I spend two years converting PG books to MOBI format on my own website. > > 8)????? PG says, gosh, ?we guess we are interested after all! > > 9)????? I say, gee, this is silly, we are duplicating work, and furthermore PG is better set up to do this > work anyway. > > 10)?? I suggest, PG site doesn?t work worth a dang from Mobile devices, why not make a version of the site > that is Mobile Device friendly ? just like the big boys do? > > 11)?? And/Or make a Mobile Device friendly version of your ?Landing Pads? so PG can at least get the > donations and credits greatly due PG? > > 12)?? PG responds again Not Interested, Not Interested, Not Interested! > First and foremost, when you get responses of "Not Interested" come to Greg/me for assistance. . .once you have communicated to either of us [you do not have to convince both, or anyone else] we'll fix you up with your own PG site, then you can be off to the races, and also get some PR in the Newsletter. It doesn't really matter if WE are interested! It only really matters of YOU are interested! Sometimes it sounds as if people want us to do it for them, and I think that is where the miscommunication lies. . . .! As per my previous message on this, -I- SAY GO FOR IT!!!!! You don't need to convince us. . .just do it. . . . We'll run nearly anything up the flagpole to see it it works. [As for the .mobi files, I think there has been more interest than most people are aware of. . .perhaps just too scattered] > ? > > Again, how IS one supposed to read PG books? I mean this as a SERIOUS question! > > ? > > Print them out?? -- Cheaper and more environmentally friendly to buy the paperback version at B&N Some do, though I've never really understood that. > Read them on a laptop? ? Too big fat and heavy to carry on the bus. I think this all depends on the person, what they are comfortable with. I've seen plenty of people around here with laptops on busses. Not to mention at the libraries. > Read them on your cellphone? ? Maybe, if you spend a couple hundred bucks on your cellphone plus maybe $100 The first thing I tell people about cellphones is NEVER GET A CELLPHONE WITHOUT WIFI!!! > a month for internet access from your local cellphone company. And if your style of reading is amenable to > the ?fortune cookie? problem ? my style of reading ISN?T ? I read bigger chunks than that.? I don?t disagree > that there are readers out there that read ?word at a time? or ?line at a time? and to them maybe the > ?fortune cookie? program ISN?T a problem to them ? but to me it is.? Not to mention that I don?t like > spending big bucks on monthly cellphone bills! Use wifi, forget the phone bill, it doesn't even have to be activated!!! As for fortune cookies, I think you're overdoing it there a bit, but the whole thing is a matter of personal taste. I don't like reading off an ereader. . .none of them. . .period. I've done live readings off cellphones that made people think I had memorized entire passages from Shakespeare. Reading a Shakespeare play is hard reading in any format for it contains so many lines by different people. > Read them on a netbook?? -- Maybe, but I?m suspicious of the eventual eyestrain -- I will be trying this > approach to make a ?generic? reader. Also, netbooks won?t lie flat, and are kind of on the big fat and heavy > side compared to a book. I've never been in a situation where I wanted my netbook to lie flat. Now I'll have to see how far it will tilt back, and let makers know I know of at least one person who wants them to lie flat. I guess if tablets ever get very popular they might encourage this. As for B&N, I'm afraid all but the largest still don't have "nooks," and I'm afraid it's ruining their credibility, esp. since they sent so many mass mailings out to come see them at earlier dates. Now it's Pearl Harbor Day, not that the new generation knows that-- but it might become a date of infamy--just because of delay, delay. You'd think they would at least have demo's out in stores by now. They are verly likely putting a dent in their holiday sales. . . . And in their credibility. I've been every week for 10 weeks now. . .duh!!! > Why do I like the Kindle?? -- It allows me to actually read books, and read books without eyestrain, and > allows me to ?get into? my reading just like I get into reading a paperback.? Its not that the Kindle is > perfect, nor Amazon perfect ? they both got some pretty big problems, including overly obnoxious DRM Is there anything like lots more about Kindles than Sonys or nooks? I've heard there are other eink ereaders out there, any differences? > schemes.? But, in practice, ?it works? where for me ?it works? includes the idea that one doesn?t always > have to run home and tether one?s ebook reader to a desktop every time you want to get a new book to read. Again, it's always nice to have wifi. > Waiting to see the B&N reader in the bookstore to see how well it works ? seems to me the B&N WiFi approach > might be better than the Kindle Whispernet approach, but there are goofy aspects to the B&N reader too. And > in the next year there is going to be about a dozen more interesting ebook readers coming out.? Why all this > interest in ebook readers?? People like them.? People use them.? People buy them.? People buy books for > them. People read books on them.? In short, because it works.? And technology where one can actually say ?it > works? is really a pretty rare thing!? That?s why I?m excited by ebook readers ? because it actually makes > projects like PG begin to make sense! [And they are really fun! Don?t really know why ? they just are!] Apparently about 4% of all books sales are now eBooks. [They still refuse to count free ones like ours] This is just about exactly the same ~4% amount that paper book sales are down. . .so books are not down in the total sense, but apparently not all of their execs got the memo and are still blaming piracy. Speaking of piracy, is anyone ready to start a work against the obvious 2018 US Copyright Act??? mh From vze3rknp at verizon.net Sun Dec 6 07:42:27 2009 From: vze3rknp at verizon.net (Juliet Sutherland) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 10:42:27 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B1BD0E3.6010206@verizon.net> James Adcock wrote: > > > Read them on a laptop? ? Too big fat and heavy to carry on the bus. > A very interesting, to me, fact that I learned recently is that most (over half) readers of romance ebooks read them on computer screens. The romance genre is one area where commercial ebooks have been adopted very quickly. Someone in that part of the industry pointed out that many of their consumers are stuck at computers all day, often with not enough to occupy their time (think receptionists, secretaries, etc.) Having text on the screen looks much better than something that is obviously a game, but having a physical book wouldn't look good at all. There are certainly lots of other factors that have influenced the acceptance of ebooks in that market, but this was one that hadn't occurred to me. Just a reminder that not everyone has the same desires and constraints that most people on this list have. JulietS From marcello at perathoner.de Sun Dec 6 10:43:32 2009 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 19:43:32 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B1BFB54.2030100@perathoner.de> James Adcock wrote: > Again, I make a simple suggestion: Get a Kindle and try using it with the PG > website. You will find that it really doesn't work with the PG website. > Then try using the Kindle on other websites that support Mobile Devices and > see that it does work on other websites. The PG site doesn't work well with a Kindle because one year ago when I wrote the ePub converter I couldn't get one. OTOH I could walk into a shop 10 minutes from my home and walk out with a Sony Reader. That's usability. (And that was even before I learned about the wireless censoring tool built into the Kindle, which just made sure I will not buy one in future.) If Amazon wants to be a global player it has to play globally. Not restrict its offers to one relatively small country of 300 M inhabitants vs. a global population of 6,800 M. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From prosfilaes at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 12:06:18 2009 From: prosfilaes at gmail.com (David Starner) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 15:06:18 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: <4B1BFB54.2030100@perathoner.de> References: <4B1BFB54.2030100@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <6d99d1fd0912061206n3b2e240fid8274f95da1213d8@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > If Amazon wants to be a global player it has to play globally. Not restrict > its offers to one relatively small country of 300 M inhabitants vs. a global > population of 6,800 M. In what sense is the third largest nation by population "relatively small"? And do you deride Project Gutenberg for spending four years and two hundred books before doing in anything in a language other than English? It's not unreasonable for them to start out small and work their way out, especially given that their multinational basis makes them particularly vulnerable to countries like Germany which would happily sue if Amazon doesn't correctly censor what's available. In any case, your complaints are moot; the Kindle is available to you now. -- Kie ekzistas vivo, ekzistas espero. From marcello at perathoner.de Sun Dec 6 12:35:46 2009 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 21:35:46 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: <6d99d1fd0912061206n3b2e240fid8274f95da1213d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1BFB54.2030100@perathoner.de> <6d99d1fd0912061206n3b2e240fid8274f95da1213d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1C15A2.7090103@perathoner.de> David Starner wrote: > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Marcello Perathoner > wrote: >> If Amazon wants to be a global player it has to play globally. Not restrict >> its offers to one relatively small country of 300 M inhabitants vs. a global >> population of 6,800 M. > > In what sense is the third largest nation by population "relatively > small"? Read before you quote. > It's not unreasonable for them to start out small and > work their way out, especially given that their multinational basis > makes them particularly vulnerable to countries like Germany which > would happily sue if Amazon doesn't correctly censor what's available. Why would they sue the Kindle more than the paper books that Amazon happily mails to Germany from their US store? And why would they sue the Kindle more than the Sony? > In any case, your complaints are moot; the Kindle is available to you > now. I already own a Sony now. So you can either present me with a Kindle or wait til the Sony breaks. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From lee at novomail.net Sun Dec 6 12:34:22 2009 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 13:34:22 -0700 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B1C154E.1020205@novomail.net> James Adcock wrote: [snip] > Why do people buy an ebook reader when presumably they also almost all also > own a computer with an HTML browser? Answer: the ebook reader gives a > better more book-like reading experience. Why MOBI or EPUB format and not > HTML? Because MOBI and EPUB formats understand what is necessary to make an > ebook reader "book-like experience" work IN PRACTICE -- HTML does not. Not quite. As most people understand, both the MOBI and the ePub formats are little more than compressed collections of HTML files. This is why PG can produce MOBI an ePub files on the fly; if an HTML version exists, just add a few metadata files, compress them together, and voil?, there's your e-book. Just as an experiment, download an ePub file but save it with a .zip extension; you should be able to use your favorite zipping tool to explore everything that's in it. Your confusion probably arises from the fact that /software/ which is designed explicitly to deal with ePub or MOBI files is /also/ designed to display the interior HTML in a way that makes it more "book-like" (e.g. page-oriented, with new pages starting at the beginning of chapters). If this same software is presented with basic HTML frequently it will display it in exactly the same manner it did the newer compressed formats. The old MobiPocket reader could actually open HTML files directly, and once opened you could not tell whether the e-book was in MOBI or HTML format. I also know from experience that the first generation Sony readers would also render HTML just as easily, and with the same presentation, as their own proprietary LRF format. My favorite software, ?Book doesn't recognize the .epub extension, but can read HTML from inside of zip files, so I just save ePubs as zips and ?Book handles them just fine. So, if you are looking for that "book-like reading experience," you should be more concerned with what software you are using than what file format you are downloading. There is plenty of software available, for a multitude of hardware platforms, much of it free, that will display basic HTML using the "book-like", paginated paradigm. On a related note, if you are producing an e-book, and you want to make it accessible to the largest audience, you should also focus on HTML, as it is the well-spring from which virtually all other formats can flow. From desrod at gnu-designs.com Mon Dec 7 16:35:26 2009 From: desrod at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 19:35:26 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:56 AM, James Adcock wrote: >>They do 99% of the work and then expect the world to beat a path to their > doorstep to get their new mousetrap. Slight tangent to the thread, but I decided to get the Sony PRS-600BC reader last night at my local Target for a mere $299 *cough*, and brought it home in anticipation of loading it up with lots of Gutenberg epub, lrf and HTML formatted docs. I use Calibre on Linux to communicate with it and sync the docs, news, etc. What a depressing experience, and not the Gutenberg part. - The reader is really horrible for glare. I have to hold it at about a 30-degree angle in order to use it without reflecting everything above, behind and around me. - The contrast is very low and milky. Picture reading a book while it is pressed flat against the outside of your driver-side window. It's worse than that. - The device is VERY slow and unresponsive to finger or stylus. Even my old sub-200Mhz Palm III was faster than this. - Battery life is beyond atrocious. I charged it fully, left it in the "On" state with Power Management enabled, and about an hour later, it had already lost 80% of its battery life - Horrible "neoprene" cover/case that ships with it. Really? For a $300 device, all I get is a flimsy piece of neoprene to protect it? Not even a hard-walled slip case. As others have said, I can get a full netbook for the same price, with a LOT more storage, power, and flexibility. This reader is going back to Target less than 24 hours after the original purchase. Does anyone have a recommendation of one that they DO like, which doesn't hurt the eyes (with glare and contrast straining) and has good battery life and document compatibility? From jimad at msn.com Mon Dec 7 19:03:34 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 19:03:34 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >First and foremost, when you get responses of "Not Interested" come to Greg/me for assistance. . .once you have communicated to either of us [you do not have to convince both, or anyone else] we'll fix you up with your own PG site, then you can be off to the races, and also get some PR in the Newsletter. What I guess I would be interested in doing is trying out "on an experimental basis" a "Mobile Devices Centric" version of the PG website. If it doesn't actually make a contribution to society, well, then pull the plug -- no problem. I think a mobile device centric version of the PG website would benefit not only Kindle users, but most cellphone users. I am assuming that there are other people out there who know so much more about websites than I do that they will laugh at my "contributions" -- but, so be it. But I don't know how to get started, so any pointers would be appreciated. >The first thing I tell people about cellphones is NEVER GET A CELLPHONE WITHOUT WIFI!!! OK, well if a cellphone has wifi then it just comes down pretty much to an argument of display technologies and screen size. I like eink technology, for me a std Kindle is a little small, I like the DX but admit its starting to get cumbersome to carry around (about the same size as a netbook but thinner and lighter weight). Some are happy to do an iphone size device with backlight LCD,... Still, if I had an iphone I would be running some kind of either EPUB or MOBI reader software on it to provide a more "booklike" experience. >As for fortune cookies, I think you're overdoing it there a bit, but the whole thing is a matter of personal taste. Well, between an iphone, and ereader, or a netbook, one is still talking about $250 in any case, so then its mainly a choice of form factor and display technology. >As for B&N, I'm afraid all but the largest still don't have "nooks," and I'm afraid it's ruining their credibility, esp. since they sent so many mass mailings out to come see them at earlier dates. I think the situation was similar for Kindle the first year, except that you couldn't see a Kindle in ANY store. Amazon was at least smart enough to publish their user manuals online -- B&N won't even do that! Again, I think competition is a good thing -- hopefully competition between ebook suppliers will drive them towards adopting less onerous DRM schemes, just as competition drove the music industry towards less onerous DRM schemes. >Is there anything like lots more about Kindles than Sonys or nooks? Kindles have Whispernet technology, which is great when it works. I'm in a fringe reception area, so sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It would be great if it also had wifi. Kindle accepts MOBI PRC TXT and PDF (if you have a Kindle DX) which allows one to cover most "free" choices except EPUB, which requires a one-minute conversion via Calibre say, which takes hooking up the Kindle to a PC. It may sound silly, but after hooking up an ereader to a PC a couple hundred times, one starts to wish for something else -- such as Whispernet or wifi. >I've heard there are other eink ereaders out there, any differences? Mainly that they're even more behind schedule than B&N. Doesn't really matter how good the technology is unless you have a major player supporting it -- if it doesn't, you're going to end up with an orphan device. One might expect Apple to come up with a dedicated ereader, and one might expect Google to do so to. Microsoft tried an ebook effort already which kind of imploded as far as I can tell. Google are the obvious ones to make a hard push towards an ebook reader, IMHO. >Speaking of piracy, is anyone ready to start a work against the obvious 2018 US Copyright Act??? Sorry, what's happening on the "new and improved" copyright front? From jimad at msn.com Mon Dec 7 19:52:43 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 19:52:43 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: <4B1BD0E3.6010206@verizon.net> References: <4B1BD0E3.6010206@verizon.net> Message-ID: LOL -- touch? -- OK when I am at work (meaning at the computer) then I don't get to read romance novels. But if I were to read romance novels I would need to read it on my Kindle so my wife and two daughters wouldn't laugh at me! -----Original Message----- From: gutvol-d-bounces at lists.pglaf.org [mailto:gutvol-d-bounces at lists.pglaf.org] On Behalf Of Juliet Sutherland Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:42 AM To: Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page James Adcock wrote: > > > Read them on a laptop? ? Too big fat and heavy to carry on the bus. > A very interesting, to me, fact that I learned recently is that most (over half) readers of romance ebooks read them on computer screens. The romance genre is one area where commercial ebooks have been adopted very quickly. Someone in that part of the industry pointed out that many of their consumers are stuck at computers all day, often with not enough to occupy their time (think receptionists, secretaries, etc.) Having text on the screen looks much better than something that is obviously a game, but having a physical book wouldn't look good at all. There are certainly lots of other factors that have influenced the acceptance of ebooks in that market, but this was one that hadn't occurred to me. Just a reminder that not everyone has the same desires and constraints that most people on this list have. JulietS _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d From jimad at msn.com Mon Dec 7 20:04:05 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 20:04:05 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: <4B1BFB54.2030100@perathoner.de> References: <4B1BFB54.2030100@perathoner.de> Message-ID: >OTOH I could walk into a shop 10 minutes from my home and walk out with >a Sony Reader. That's usability. (And that was even before I learned >about the wireless censoring tool built into the Kindle, which just made >sure I will not buy one in future.) Not sure what the "wireless censoring tool" means except perhaps the George Orwell story? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html >If Amazon wants to be a global player it has to play globally. Not >restrict its offers to one relatively small country of 300 M inhabitants >vs. a global population of 6,800 M. Also not sure what this one means except perhaps you are unaware that Amazon has started selling an international version? http://www.amazon.com/Kindle From jimad at msn.com Mon Dec 7 20:24:33 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 20:24:33 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: <4B1C154E.1020205@novomail.net> References: <4B1C154E.1020205@novomail.net> Message-ID: >Your confusion probably arises from the fact that /software/ which is >designed explicitly to deal with ePub or MOBI files is /also/ designed >to display the interior HTML in a way that makes it more "book-like" >(e.g. page-oriented, with new pages starting at the beginning of >chapters). My "confusion" is over why anyone would consider reading HTML via any of the major HTML browsers a "book-like" experience. I certainly know at least something about the internal formats of E-book files having made literally about 20,000 such E-books from PG HTML files. I've tried as many ways as I can figure out what HTML browsers can be "adjusted" to give a "book-like reading" experience and have always been stumped. Tried things like playing with the accessibility features, etc. Problems include no ability to set or adjust margins, no easy way to set the reading width, no easy way to choose a sensible reading font or sensible reading size, no way to adjust background vs. foreground contrast ratios to make the contrast less blinding, etc. It's not that all the e-book reader software "works" either, for example Adobe Digital Editions (ADE) ALSO doesn't have any way to set sensible margins. And it's not that the e-book readers are perfect either, for example Kindle doesn't allow sensible margin adjustments on PDF files -- where in effect often one would like to set a NEGATIVE margin allowance to remove some of the margin hard-wired into the PDF file. Kindle DX seems to perform automagic PDF margin trimming in portrait mode, but not in landscape mode. Also when one plays with the HTML browser to make book reading a more "book-like" reading experience, then that in turn screws up one's use of the HTML browser for non-book-reading "normal web site" experiences. Agreed that EPUB and MOBI are basically ENCAPSULATED HTML -- plus "SPINE" information. What then is the difference? HTML isn't encapsulated, is missing spine information, and comes with browsers which "don't get it." On the positive side, HTML browsers can do YouTube which I think is the way the HTML world is heading: namely video. We should be very happy that other people who like to read are willing to buy dedicated hardware to do so when they could instead be buying flip video cameras to film god say what! In short, I think we the entire computer world is actually still very much in the early days of learning what it takes to make reading a pleasant and transparent experience on one-or-another chunk of hardware. The paper book industry has had at least 400 years to figure this out -- too bad the CS types (of which I am one) don't look to the paper book industry to see how it ought to be done! From hart at pglaf.org Mon Dec 7 21:48:41 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:48:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jim Adcock said: "Well, between an iphone, and ereader, or a netbook, one is still talking about $250 in any case, so then its mainly a choice of form factor and display . . . " /// For me this is NOT the issue, but rather the same "dedicated equipment" issue people have been talking about since "WANG Word Processors" at an average price that was above the average family income of the time. I never did understand the advantage of those over Apple ]['s, etc.... The Merganthaler users didn't understand either, both went under.... So, for me, it's the question of carrying: A. An ereader B. A phone/MP3/browser/emailer/texter/GPS C. A pretty much full function computer [w or w/o optical drive] For me the first choice is the last choice, it doesn't do enough. Period. I keep playing with them at the stores, never get hooked. I liked the read out loud part, and still wonder of the legal wars that somehow killed that one so fast it was stillborn. As for cellphones, I think they are amazing, and really getting to the point where they are just about full tilt computers. I prefer movies on a larger screen, but 10" is more than enough, so that is what I bought myself for the holidays, $250, and PG didn't have to foot the bill. I don't carry the DVD/CD drive unless it's a plan. As for Jim's ideas about web pages for various devices, I'm happy to say we have already heard from at least one volunteer to help. mh From hart at pglaf.org Mon Dec 7 21:57:48 2009 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:57:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Addressing the last point, I have heard several people mention that there is ONE feature they look for most. . .non-reflective or translucent glass or whatever on the screen. I'm afraid I've never been bothered by it all that much, other than those few days when the sun shines right behind me, and I just tilt the screens a bit for those few days and I'm OK, though I do notice. I was a bit surprised by the extra cost for such, and wonder about stick- on translucent sheets, like the ones for cellphones, PDAs, etc. I think nearly any arts and crafts store would have such things you would be able to use on your Sony. mh On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, David A. Desrosiers wrote: > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:56 AM, James Adcock wrote: > >>They do 99% of the work and then expect the world to beat a path to their > > doorstep to get their new mousetrap. > > Slight tangent to the thread, but I decided to get the Sony PRS-600BC > reader last night at my local Target for a mere $299 *cough*, and > brought it home in anticipation of loading it up with lots of > Gutenberg epub, lrf and HTML formatted docs. I use Calibre on Linux to > communicate with it and sync the docs, news, etc. > > What a depressing experience, and not the Gutenberg part. > > - The reader is really horrible for glare. I have to hold it at about > a 30-degree angle in order to use it without reflecting everything > above, behind and around me. > > - The contrast is very low and milky. Picture reading a book while it > is pressed flat against the outside of your driver-side window. It's > worse than that. > > - The device is VERY slow and unresponsive to finger or stylus. Even > my old sub-200Mhz Palm III was faster than this. > > - Battery life is beyond atrocious. I charged it fully, left it in the > "On" state with Power Management enabled, and about an hour later, it > had already lost 80% of its battery life > > - Horrible "neoprene" cover/case that ships with it. Really? For a > $300 device, all I get is a flimsy piece of neoprene to protect it? > Not even a hard-walled slip case. > > As others have said, I can get a full netbook for the same price, with > a LOT more storage, power, and flexibility. This reader is going back > to Target less than 24 hours after the original purchase. > > Does anyone have a recommendation of one that they DO like, which > doesn't hurt the eyes (with glare and contrast straining) and has good > battery life and document compatibility? > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From jimad at msn.com Tue Dec 8 09:17:22 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:17:22 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > - The reader is really horrible for glare. I have to hold it at about > a 30-degree angle in order to use it without reflecting everything > above, behind and around me. I think the problem with the Sony is the plastic overlay that provides for the touch screen feature. In comparison the Kindle has a soft-etched glass screen which doesn't seem to my taste to have reflection problems. > - The contrast is very low and milky. Picture reading a book while it > is pressed flat against the outside of your driver-side window. It's > worse than that. Again, I think the Sony has the plastic overlay touch screen, which I think reduces the contrast and makes things darker. But, even the Kindle's version of the e-ink technology is darker and has lower contrast that a paperback book -- similar to reading a European newspaper. The Kindle's e-ink technology is very responsive to how much light you put on it -- more so than paper -- try to read it in the dark, and it will look very dark. Read it in sunlight or a well-lit room and it looks great, almost like paper. I have an Ottlight dedicated reading light that I use to read the Kindle (and paperback books) late at night. Also the e-ink technology is less responsive if the temperatures are cold or if the battery is almost exhausted. My understanding (although I haven't seen it yet) is that the B&N e-reader has a touch screen only on a lower auxiliary screen below the reading screen. The lower auxiliary screen is for navigation and color display of book covers -- which seems silly to my taste, but oh well. I think you can turn off the auxiliary screen when you are reading so it will not distract you. From ajhaines at shaw.ca Tue Dec 8 10:42:00 2009 From: ajhaines at shaw.ca (Al Haines (shaw)) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:42:00 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Kindle user problem with PG's The Touchstone Message-ID: A message to the Errata system (see below) reports a problem with Edith Wharton's "The Touchstone", PG #267. Do other Kindle (II) users experience the reported problem with this particular book? Any advice I can forward to the writer? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I used The Magic Catalog of Project Gutenberg E-Books (MOBI Edition) running on my Kindle II To download by wireless The Touchstone. The download seemed to be successful (ie.The Touchstone was now listed on my Home list). When I opened the book it opened to the Title page. After that I lost control of all normal Kindle functions (Next Page, Prev Page, Home, Back). I then had to reset the Kindle. I tried a second time with the same exact results. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Al From desrod at gnu-designs.com Thu Dec 10 09:47:51 2009 From: desrod at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 12:47:51 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Jim Adcock wrote: > My understanding (although I haven't seen it yet) is that the B&N e-reader > has a touch screen only on a lower auxiliary screen below the reading > screen. ?The lower auxiliary screen is for navigation and color display of > book covers -- which seems silly to my taste, but oh well. ?I think you can > turn off the auxiliary screen when you are reading so it will not distract > you. For every one, there's one that trumps it. I was looking at possibly ditching the Sony and going for the Nook, but the Nook is a bit large, bulky, and with a color touchscreen, is going to eat battery a lot faster. It's also thicker, which is a consideration for portability. But the "Alex" out-trumps the Nook, with even more features, and runs Android. And the Que (due to be announced next month) is reported to even trump the Alex, which isn't officially out yet. This game of cat and mouse has me exhausted, and I'm not even playing yet! :) From lee at novomail.net Thu Dec 10 10:54:12 2009 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 11:54:12 -0700 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page (pls. proofread) In-Reply-To: References: <4B1C154E.1020205@novomail.net> Message-ID: <4B2143D4.6050909@novomail.net> Jim Adcock wrote: >> Your confusion probably arises from the fact that /software/ which is >> designed explicitly to deal with ePub or MOBI files is /also/ designed >> to display the interior HTML in a way that makes it more "book-like" >> (e.g. page-oriented, with new pages starting at the beginning of >> chapters). > > My "confusion" is over why anyone would consider reading HTML via any of the > major HTML browsers a "book-like" experience. I certainly know at least > something about the internal formats of E-book files having made literally > about 20,000 such E-books from PG HTML files. I agree with your question; "why would anyone consider reading HTML via any of the major HTML browsers?" Particularly when you can read HTML via most of the major e-book readers? Perhaps more to the point, why would anyone think that when you have an HTML file you /should/ read it in a browser? From jimad at msn.com Mon Dec 14 11:38:59 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:38:59 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Kindle user problem with PG's The Touchstone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >...on my Kindle II To download by wireless The Touchstone. The download seemed to be successful (ie.The Touchstone was now listed on my Home list). When I opened the book it opened to the Title page. After that I lost control of all normal Kindle functions (Next Page, Prev Page, Home, Back). I can confirm that I downloaded The Touchstone directly from the PG site to my Kindle DX, using a hardwired (USB) connection -- thus avoiding the possibility of a damaged whispernet wireless download (which is also known to happen). On the Kindle DX The Touchstone also makes bad things happen. So this appears to be an incompatibility between something in The Touchstone and Kindle software in general. Opening The Touchstone in Mobipocket Reader shows no problems using that MOBI file reader. Guessing based on superficial appearances only, the TOC in the HTML version of The Touchstone appears to be using an unusual format which has three columns of HTML links. I'm guessing the Kindles et al are not correctly handling whatever gets generated from the HTML in the MOBI file's attempt to handle this unusual formatting choice for the TOC. See for example "A Danish Parsonage" TOC for a "Lowest Common Denominator" style of formatting of a TOC that I would think any MOBI or EPUB reader should be able to handle no problem. Kindle II and Kindle DX don't even handle "normal" tabular representation of TOCs correctly -- they don't normally "break" on the tabular representation, they just don't allow one to actually access the active links within a tabular TOC either. ...of course, if PG were to come up with a standard way to actually implement the standard TOC format supported in the Spine of MOBI and EPUB file formats automagically from a PG-standardized HTML format, then presumably it would all work as the devices expect.... From ajhaines at shaw.ca Mon Dec 14 12:06:51 2009 From: ajhaines at shaw.ca (Al Haines (shaw)) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 12:06:51 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Kindle user problem with PG's The Touchstone References: Message-ID: <287ADF6F850A411D8F3B4BD6DEE74EB2@alp2400> Thanks, Jim - I'll pass this along. Re the three-column table of contents you mention: preparing a jump table like in Touchstone is a fairly common technique the WWers use to add a table of contents, of sorts, to HTML versions of updated/reposted older books that didn't have TOC's to start with. Examples: The Land that Time Forgot, PG #551, or The People that Time Forgot, PG #552. It also happens occasionally with newer books where chapters are numbered but not titled, and there's no TOC in the source. The preparer can optionally add a jump table for the convenience of HTML readers. Al ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Adcock" To: "'Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion'" Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 11:38 AM Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Kindle user problem with PG's The Touchstone > >...on my Kindle II To download by wireless The Touchstone. The download > seemed > to be successful (ie.The Touchstone was now listed on my Home list). When > I > opened the book it opened to the Title page. After that I lost control of > all normal Kindle functions (Next Page, Prev Page, Home, Back). > > I can confirm that I downloaded The Touchstone directly from the PG site > to > my Kindle DX, using a hardwired (USB) connection -- thus avoiding the > possibility of a damaged whispernet wireless download (which is also known > to happen). On the Kindle DX The Touchstone also makes bad things happen. > So this appears to be an incompatibility between something in The > Touchstone > and Kindle software in general. Opening The Touchstone in Mobipocket > Reader > shows no problems using that MOBI file reader. > > Guessing based on superficial appearances only, the TOC in the HTML > version > of The Touchstone appears to be using an unusual format which has three > columns of HTML links. I'm guessing the Kindles et al are not correctly > handling whatever gets generated from the HTML in the MOBI file's attempt > to > handle this unusual formatting choice for the TOC. See for example "A > Danish Parsonage" TOC for a "Lowest Common Denominator" style of > formatting > of a TOC that I would think any MOBI or EPUB reader should be able to > handle > no problem. Kindle II and Kindle DX don't even handle "normal" tabular > representation of TOCs correctly -- they don't normally "break" on the > tabular representation, they just don't allow one to actually access the > active links within a tabular TOC either. > > ...of course, if PG were to come up with a standard way to actually > implement the standard TOC format supported in the Spine of MOBI and EPUB > file formats automagically from a PG-standardized HTML format, then > presumably it would all work as the devices expect.... > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From ajhaines at shaw.ca Tue Dec 15 21:04:50 2009 From: ajhaines at shaw.ca (Al Haines (shaw)) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 21:04:50 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: [gutvol-p] Getting Involved References: <1260848698.2347.84.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <6FA83B2D449948D4ACAB9764AB75F242@alp2400> John, I've taken the liberty of re-posting this message to Project Gutenberg's general discussion forum (gutvol-d). (It's usually a more active and vociferous forum than gutvol-p.) You don't say precisely what you mean by "submitting files", but if you mean submitting new ebooks, you should probably start by reading PG's various How-To's and FAQ's at http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Category:How-To and http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Category:FAQ, respectively. You'll need to obtain a copyright clearance for the book you want to produce, described here: http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg:Copyright_How-To. (You'll also need to create an account for yourself at http://upload.pglaf.org/ to submit copyright clearance requests and to upload your finished ebook.) For general information and standards for the text and HTML versions, respectively, see the Volunteers' FAQ and the HTML FAQ at http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Category:FAQ. For checking text files, the three utilities Gutcheck, Jeebies, and Gutspell are indispensable. They're free, and downloadable at http://gutcheck.sourceforge.net/etc.html PG requires at least a plain text version of the book. (See the Volunteers' FAQ, especially section 7.) HTML is optional, but desirable. It's pretty much required if the book has illustrations or graphical content. Other formats (doc, rtf, pdf, etc) are optional. See the File Formats FAQ at the above FAQ link for more information. Comments on your assorted utilities and conversions I leave to others. Al Haines Project Gutenberg. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Redmond" To: Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 7:44 PM Subject: [gutvol-p] Getting Involved > Hello all: > > I write code, specifically code to process XML/XHTML, etc, as well as > lightly marked-up text. I am keen to get involved with the Gutenberg > activities, and I think that I can contribute best by providing software > to value-add on existing offerings. > > The best way to have a look at what I do is to go to my site > (www.limpidsoft.com), where I: > > 1. Outline, in a couple of PDF files, what I have been doing recently; > 2. Give some rather crude examples of PDF files I have adapted from > existing Gutenberg files; > 3. Provide downloads of free, command-line, utilities (for Linux and > Windows) to convert text or XML to LaTeX and PDF files. > > I would like to get advice on how to get involved with the Gutenberg > activities: how to submit files, what declarations and other inclusions > are required. > > John Redmond > Sydney, Australia > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-p mailing list > gutvol-p at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-p > From jimad at msn.com Wed Dec 16 08:05:48 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:05:48 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New mobile devices page References: Message-ID: Re Nook: I finally got to play with a nook and more importantly B&N finally posted the users manual on the net at: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/nook/support Unfortunately, I think the nook will prove to be a disappointment to PG users. First, it is very slow and unresponsive compared even to a Kindle. Secondly, while it has Wi-Fi, it really doesn't let an owner use that Wi-Fi in any meaningful way! It contains no web browser, not even a weak web browser like the Kindle, nor does it contain any interface that would allow one to pull an E-book using Wi-Fi from a local computer, say. The B&N cellular connection is ONLY for downloading content from B&N, and the Wi-Fi ONLY can be used as a supplemental connection emulating the restricted functionality of the cellular connection. You can connect the nook to a desktop computer using a USB cable, and then like Kindle and other eBook readers it turns into a disc emulation mode allowing one to transfer eBooks from one's desktop computer to the nook using the desktop computer's file management interface aka "drag and drop." In summary: Caveat Emptor! PS: One interesting thing it does have is reflow capability of PDF file format -- if the PDF file format is not a scanned book. IE don't expect reflow on Google scanned books. I haven't seen this work in practice, so I am suspicious, although they do admit that graphics may not reflow correctly. It also has a better selection of fonts than Kindle. File formats supported: PDF, PDB, and EPUB. From joey at joeysmith.com Wed Dec 16 18:46:28 2009 From: joey at joeysmith.com (Joey Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:46:28 -0700 Subject: [gutvol-d] DP's "internal markup" (was Re: why the plain-text format is the most useful) In-Reply-To: <4AABE4C4.4050704@perathoner.de> References: <4AAB6E4B.4000004@perathoner.de> <4AAB8E46.1080305@perathoner.de> <4AABDAC7.7080609@perathoner.de> <2362473e0909121056va506760t46236c031dea0a43@mail.gmail.com> <4AABE4C4.4050704@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <20091217024628.GA22466@joeysmith.com> On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 08:13:24PM +0200, Marcello Perathoner wrote: > Scott Olson wrote: > >> Guiguts wasn't designed to convert existing texts. It's purpose is to >> help a DP PPer turn the output of the DP rounds into the final product >> seen on PG. In this case, the DP text for a piece of poetry would have >> had the poetry wrapped in poetry markers, signifying to Guiguts that it >> had to treat the block of text as non-wrappable poetry, and not just a >> straight paragraph of prose. > > I see. I was told the output of DP was text and the html generated from it. > > Now I gather DP uses some sort of proprietary internal markup and can > produce HTML without having to produce TXT? Am I right? I'm also very interested in the answer to this question - and assuming the answer is "Yes, DP has an internal format that is used before the final .txt is rendered to PG", my follow-up question becomes "How can I get access to the ebooks in this 'internal markup' format?" I'm hoping dearly that the answer isn't "We throw it away when we're done..." From ajhaines at shaw.ca Wed Dec 16 18:54:32 2009 From: ajhaines at shaw.ca (Al Haines (shaw)) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:54:32 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: DP's "internal markup" (was Re: why the plain-text format is the most useful) References: <4AAB6E4B.4000004@perathoner.de> <4AAB8E46.1080305@perathoner.de> <4AABDAC7.7080609@perathoner.de> <2362473e0909121056va506760t46236c031dea0a43@mail.gmail.com> <4AABE4C4.4050704@perathoner.de> <20091217024628.GA22466@joeysmith.com> Message-ID: Probably best to email dphelp_AT_pgdp.net with your question. Al ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joey Smith" To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 6:46 PM Subject: [gutvol-d] DP's "internal markup" (was Re: why the plain-text format is the most useful) > On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 08:13:24PM +0200, Marcello Perathoner wrote: >> Scott Olson wrote: >> >>> Guiguts wasn't designed to convert existing texts. It's purpose is to >>> help a DP PPer turn the output of the DP rounds into the final product >>> seen on PG. In this case, the DP text for a piece of poetry would have >>> had the poetry wrapped in poetry markers, signifying to Guiguts that it >>> had to treat the block of text as non-wrappable poetry, and not just a >>> straight paragraph of prose. >> >> I see. I was told the output of DP was text and the html generated from >> it. >> >> Now I gather DP uses some sort of proprietary internal markup and can >> produce HTML without having to produce TXT? Am I right? > > I'm also very interested in the answer to this question - and assuming the > answer is > "Yes, DP has an internal format that is used before the final .txt is > rendered to PG", > my follow-up question becomes "How can I get access to the ebooks in this > 'internal > markup' format?" I'm hoping dearly that the answer isn't "We throw it away > when we're > done..." > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From grythumn at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 19:07:39 2009 From: grythumn at gmail.com (Robert Cicconetti) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 22:07:39 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: DP's "internal markup" (was Re: why the plain-text format is the most useful) In-Reply-To: <20091217024628.GA22466@joeysmith.com> References: <4AAB6E4B.4000004@perathoner.de> <4AAB8E46.1080305@perathoner.de> <4AABDAC7.7080609@perathoner.de> <2362473e0909121056va506760t46236c031dea0a43@mail.gmail.com> <4AABE4C4.4050704@perathoner.de> <20091217024628.GA22466@joeysmith.com> Message-ID: <15cfa2a50912161907r10754ades723c66be2c3f548a@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:46 PM, Joey Smith wrote: > On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 08:13:24PM +0200, Marcello Perathoner wrote: >> Scott Olson wrote: >> >>> Guiguts wasn't designed to convert existing texts. It's purpose is to >>> help a DP PPer turn the output of the DP rounds into the final product >>> seen on PG. In this case, the DP text for a piece of poetry would have >>> had the poetry wrapped in poetry markers, signifying to Guiguts that it >>> had to treat the block of text as non-wrappable poetry, and not just a >>> straight paragraph of prose. >> >> I see. I was told the output of DP was text and the html generated from it. >> >> Now I gather DP uses some sort of proprietary internal markup and can >> produce HTML without having to produce TXT? Am I right? > > I'm also very interested in the answer to this question - and assuming the answer is > "Yes, DP has an internal format that is used before the final .txt is rendered to PG", > my follow-up question becomes "How can I get access to the ebooks in this 'internal > markup' format?" I'm hoping dearly that the answer isn't "We throw it away when we're > done..." It's archived when the project is posted to PG. It won't have the final corrections and adjustments from the PP stage. You can download a concatenated text file at any point in the process, until the project is archived. R C From sly at victoria.tc.ca Wed Dec 16 20:19:57 2009 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:19:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: DP's "internal markup" (was Re: why the plain-text format is the most useful) In-Reply-To: <20091217024628.GA22466@joeysmith.com> References: <4AAB6E4B.4000004@perathoner.de> <4AAB8E46.1080305@perathoner.de> <4AABDAC7.7080609@perathoner.de> <2362473e0909121056va506760t46236c031dea0a43@mail.gmail.com> <4AABE4C4.4050704@perathoner.de> <20091217024628.GA22466@joeysmith.com> Message-ID: Well, be careful you are not laboring under misunderstandings. The output of DP (that is to say, what comes out of round F2) is _not_ a finished text. Yes, there is some propriatory markup used at DP. However calling it a "format" is going too far. I would call it "suggestive markup". That is, its purpose is to record some information about layout and format for the post-processor to use when they produce html and/or text files. The output of the rounds at DP usually contains plenty of ambiguities (such as the propriatoy , which you may want to ignore or render in different ways depending on the text), proofer's notes (such as "is this a typo?"), and other inconsistancies. It is the job of the post-processor to take all this, ask for help if needed with any of the issues with the particular text, and produce the final texts which are submitted for posting. --Andrew On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Joey Smith wrote: > > I see. I was told the output of DP was text and the html generated from it. > > > > Now I gather DP uses some sort of proprietary internal markup and can > > produce HTML without having to produce TXT? Am I right? > > I'm also very interested in the answer to this question - and assuming the answer is > "Yes, DP has an internal format that is used before the final .txt is rendered to PG", > my follow-up question becomes "How can I get access to the ebooks in this 'internal > markup' format?" I'm hoping dearly that the answer isn't "We throw it away when we're > done..." From dakretz at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 20:28:50 2009 From: dakretz at gmail.com (don kretz) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:28:50 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: DP's "internal markup" (was Re: why the plain-text format is the most useful) In-Reply-To: References: <4AAB6E4B.4000004@perathoner.de> <4AAB8E46.1080305@perathoner.de> <4AABDAC7.7080609@perathoner.de> <2362473e0909121056va506760t46236c031dea0a43@mail.gmail.com> <4AABE4C4.4050704@perathoner.de> <20091217024628.GA22466@joeysmith.com> Message-ID: <627d59b80912162028i62f43dd0hc67b19e01463fa10@mail.gmail.com> And though each project's final phase involves a great deal of manual work resulting in a polished text that is the basis for both the versions released to PG, it's interesting to note that there is no facility provided for actually preserving this foundation text version. Oversimplifying a bit, the text version removes a bunch of information, and the html version adds a bunch of stuff. Arguably the most valuable text (for content and metadata) is, at best, on someone's PC somewhere. Or more likely discarded. On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 8:19 PM, Andrew Sly wrote: > Well, be careful you are not laboring under misunderstandings. > The output of DP (that is to say, what comes out of round F2) > is _not_ a finished text. > > Yes, there is some propriatory markup used at DP. However calling > it a "format" is going too far. I would call it "suggestive markup". > That is, its purpose is to record some information about layout > and format for the post-processor to use when they produce > html and/or text files. > > The output of the rounds at DP usually contains plenty of > ambiguities (such as the propriatoy , which you may > want to ignore or render in different ways depending on the text), > proofer's notes (such as "is this a typo?"), and other > inconsistancies. It is the job of the post-processor to > take all this, ask for help if needed with any of the > issues with the particular text, and produce the final texts > which are submitted for posting. > > --Andrew > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bowerbird at aol.com Thu Dec 17 00:49:06 2009 From: bowerbird at aol.com (bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 03:49:06 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Getting Involved Message-ID: john said: > I would like to get advice on how to > get involved with the Gutenberg activities john, before you give up for lack of meaningful advice, try one more time next week and i'll give you feedback. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ajhaines at shaw.ca Thu Dec 17 09:39:45 2009 From: ajhaines at shaw.ca (Al Haines (shaw)) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:39:45 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: [gutvol-p] Re: Getting Involved References: Message-ID: Actually, I've already done so. I reposted his message to gutvol-p into gutvol-d (check the gutvol-d archives for Dec 15). I then got an email from him, to which I responded. Al ----- Original Message ----- From: bowerbird at aol.com To: gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org ; gutvol-p at lists.pglaf.org ; john_redmond at optusnet.com.au ; bowerbird at aol.com Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 12:49 AM Subject: [gutvol-p] Re: Getting Involved john said: > I would like to get advice on how to > get involved with the Gutenberg activities john, before you give up for lack of meaningful advice, try one more time next week and i'll give you feedback. -bowerbird ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ gutvol-p mailing list gutvol-p at lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-p -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimad at msn.com Thu Dec 17 13:52:23 2009 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 13:52:23 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: DP's "internal markup" (was Re: why the plain-text format is the most useful) In-Reply-To: <627d59b80912162028i62f43dd0hc67b19e01463fa10@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AAB6E4B.4000004@perathoner.de> <4AAB8E46.1080305@perathoner.de> <4AABDAC7.7080609@perathoner.de> <2362473e0909121056va506760t46236c031dea0a43@mail.gmail.com> <4AABE4C4.4050704@perathoner.de> <20091217024628.GA22466@joeysmith.com> <627d59b80912162028i62f43dd0hc67b19e01463fa10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >Arguably the most valuable text (for content and >metadata) is, at best, on someone's PC somewhere. Or more likely discarded. Just to state the obvious, it sure would be cool if the work could be saved somewhere at that point in time when the work is still "reversible" -- i.e. at a stage where it could be (in theory) resubmitted to DP or similar process for "another pass" or as a foundation for future work 10 years from now when we might have some better and agreed-upon file format for representing books than HTML. Once line break information and page break information has been thrown away, then it is very difficult to go back and make another pass on a book -- although one ought to be able to write a tool that would re-insert line breaks and page breaks based on OCR alignment with the PG or DP text. Here's a simple "real world example" of why one might care: I submit a work to PG including careful HTML representation of how the real author and/or publisher represented their work, including "correct" block text quotes and poetry representation. A day later it shows up on a different site, [which is fine] now represented in MOBI file format, but with the "correct" block text quotes and poetry representation now trashed. Why? Because presumably the person doing the file format translations at this other site is using a tool that doesn't know how to "correctly" deal with the HTML representation of block quotes and poetry. And WHY does that tool not know how to deal correctly with block quotes and poetry? -- Because there IS no format in HTML which says "This is a block quote" or "This is poetry" which in turn means it's a crap shoot whether a given translation tool will handle these issues "correctly" or not. Why would a reader then choose this "inferior" MOBI version from another site? Because that site correctly fills in "Spine" information that the PG version is missing. But if the user chooses the version with the correct "Spine" information, then the block quote and poetry formatting is trashed... ...Of course, presumably there are people at PG who consider issues of block quotes and poetry "just formatting".... From paulmaas at airpost.net Thu Dec 17 16:38:19 2009 From: paulmaas at airpost.net (Paul Maas) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 16:38:19 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: DP's "internal markup" (was Re: why the plain-text format is the most useful) In-Reply-To: References: <4AAB6E4B.4000004@perathoner.de> <4AAB8E46.1080305@perathoner.de> <4AABDAC7.7080609@perathoner.de> <2362473e0909121056va506760t46236c031dea0a43@mail.gmail.com> <4AABE4C4.4050704@perathoner.de> <20091217024628.GA22466@joeysmith.com> <627d59b80912162028i62f43dd0hc67b19e01463fa10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1261096699.11743.1350681661@webmail.messagingengine.com> Maybe the changes were made to make the book viewable on a small screen, such as an iPhone. On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 13:52:23 -0800, "Jim Adcock" said: > >Arguably the most valuable text (for content and > >metadata) is, at best, on someone's PC somewhere. Or more likely discarded. > > Just to state the obvious, it sure would be cool if the work could be > saved > somewhere at that point in time when the work is still "reversible" -- > i.e. > at a stage where it could be (in theory) resubmitted to DP or similar > process for "another pass" or as a foundation for future work 10 years > from > now when we might have some better and agreed-upon file format for > representing books than HTML. > > Once line break information and page break information has been thrown > away, > then it is very difficult to go back and make another pass on a book -- > although one ought to be able to write a tool that would re-insert line > breaks and page breaks based on OCR alignment with the PG or DP text. > > Here's a simple "real world example" of why one might care: > > I submit a work to PG including careful HTML representation of how the > real > author and/or publisher represented their work, including "correct" block > text quotes and poetry representation. > > A day later it shows up on a different site, [which is fine] now > represented > in MOBI file format, but with the "correct" block text quotes and poetry > representation now trashed. Why? Because presumably the person doing > the > file format translations at this other site is using a tool that doesn't > know how to "correctly" deal with the HTML representation of block quotes > and poetry. And WHY does that tool not know how to deal correctly with > block quotes and poetry? -- Because there IS no format in HTML which > says > "This is a block quote" or "This is poetry" which in turn means it's a > crap > shoot whether a given translation tool will handle these issues > "correctly" > or not. > > Why would a reader then choose this "inferior" MOBI version from another > site? Because that site correctly fills in "Spine" information that the > PG > version is missing. But if the user chooses the version with the correct > "Spine" information, then the block quote and poetry formatting is > trashed... -- Paul Maas paulmaas at airpost.net -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an unladen european swallow From lee at novomail.net Thu Dec 17 16:48:31 2009 From: lee at novomail.net (Lee Passey) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:48:31 -0700 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: DP's "internal markup" (was Re: why the plain-text format is the most useful) In-Reply-To: References: <4AAB6E4B.4000004@perathoner.de> <4AAB8E46.1080305@perathoner.de> <4AABDAC7.7080609@perathoner.de> <2362473e0909121056va506760t46236c031dea0a43@mail.gmail.com> <4AABE4C4.4050704@perathoner.de> <20091217024628.GA22466@joeysmith.com> <627d59b80912162028i62f43dd0hc67b19e01463fa10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B2AD15F.4080303@novomail.net> Jim Adcock wrote: >> Arguably the most valuable text (for content and >> metadata) is, at best, on someone's PC somewhere. Or more likely discarded. > > Just to state the obvious, it sure would be cool if the work could be saved > somewhere at that point in time when the work is still "reversible" -- i.e. > at a stage where it could be (in theory) resubmitted to DP or similar > process for "another pass" or as a foundation for future work 10 years from > now when we might have some better and agreed-upon file format for > representing books than HTML. My friend, what you say is obviously and incontrovertibly true. But PG is uninterested, and DP is unwilling, so what can you do? From bowerbird at aol.com Thu Dec 17 18:07:19 2009 From: bowerbird at aol.com (bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:07:19 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: DP's "internal markup" (was Re: why the plain-text format is t Message-ID: jim said: > Just to state the obvious, it sure would be cool > if the work could be saved somewhere at that > point in time when the work is still "reversible" and, just to restate what has already been stated directly, you can save the work at almost any time in the workflow. but what you will find is that the text isn't all that valuable at most points in the workflow, because it contains errors, not to mention that obtrusive and awkward "d.p. markup"... even worse is that -- in order to justify their existence -- many proofers have taken to cluttering the text with "notes" that point out errors, instead of just fixing the darn things. (this means everything gets thrown on the postprocessor, so -- surprise, surprise -- postprocessing is now blocked up.) the text is at its peak once the errors have been eliminated, right before the linebreaks and pagebreaks are discarded, so it would be great if it could be archived in _that_ state... of course, it'd be even better if linebreaks and pagebreaks were to be actually carried over into the posted p.g. e-texts -- in such a way that they could be conveniently eliminated by anyone who wanted to do that, of course -- but i've been advocating that for a very long time, and i've gotten nowhere. down the line, far in the future, people will peruse these archives and wonder just why the heck it took you guys so long to realize that you should have been doing what i told you to do all along... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Dec 22 16:48:20 2009 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:48:20 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] great news! Message-ID: kobo -- an e-book store that used to be known by the name of "shortcovers" -- has "24 days of deals" during december. today's deal is the e-book "a christmas carol" -- yes, the one by charles dickens -- which is being offered at the "super-low price!" of $4.99. > "Each daily offer valid for a 24 hour time > period and will not be honoured in future. > One coupon per customer per daily offer." and yes, _yes_, i know you will all thank me for this important tip and rush over there to buy it. i'm just happy to be of service. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Dec 25 12:08:25 2009 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 15:08:25 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] distributed proofreaders, bored with public domain books, switches to new york times Message-ID: in a development that's received support with very little opposition or controversy, distributed proofreaders plans to do proofing for the new york times, which is apparently going through such a rough financial patch that they are looking for volunteers instead of actually paying people... > http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=41731 ok, it's not a complete switch. at least that's not the plan. but since the book queues are full of b.o.c. (d.p. lingo for "boring old crap"), how many people will linger there long? unless i'm reading it wrong, that is. will someone, please, anyone!, tell me i'm reading it wrong? please, someone... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ajhaines at shaw.ca Fri Dec 25 23:25:45 2009 From: ajhaines at shaw.ca (Al Haines (shaw)) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 23:25:45 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: distributed proofreaders, bored with public domain books, switches to new york times References: Message-ID: <52372AE4658142B882768A8CC927DD97@alp2400> The article cited makes it quite clear that this would be only for pre-1923 material, thus being no different than other periodicals DP is working on, e.g. Punch, Notes and Queries, Birds Illustrated, American Missionary, etc., etc., etc. Al ----- Original Message ----- From: Bowerbird at aol.com To: gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org ; Bowerbird at aol.com Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:08 PM Subject: [gutvol-d] distributed proofreaders, bored with public domain books,switches to new york times in a development that's received support with very little opposition or controversy, distributed proofreaders plans to do proofing for the new york times, which is apparently going through such a rough financial patch that they are looking for volunteers instead of actually paying people... > http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=41731 ok, it's not a complete switch. at least that's not the plan. but since the book queues are full of b.o.c. (d.p. lingo for "boring old crap"), how many people will linger there long? unless i'm reading it wrong, that is. will someone, please, anyone!, tell me i'm reading it wrong? please, someone... -bowerbird ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ gutvol-d mailing list gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl Sat Dec 26 02:14:03 2009 From: walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl (Walter van Holst) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 11:14:03 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: distributed proofreaders, bored with public domain books, switches to new york times In-Reply-To: <52372AE4658142B882768A8CC927DD97@alp2400> References: <52372AE4658142B882768A8CC927DD97@alp2400> Message-ID: <4B35E1EB.9000908@xs4all.nl> Al Haines (shaw) wrote: > The article cited makes it quite clear that this would be only for > pre-1923 material, thus being no different than other periodicals DP is > working on, e.g. Punch, Notes and Queries, Birds Illustrated, American > Missionary, etc., etc., etc. Not to mention that it is a community consultation and on top of that it doesn't reduce the liberty of any DP volunteer not to work on this stuff. Just as it doesn't reduce the liberty of certain hopeless fools to do a few pages in DP every once in a while, while tinkering on a world-changing tool that is fundamentally impossible but will nonetheless change the world and to actually spend most of their 'volunteer' effort in criticising other people who are actually contributing. Just live and let live. Regards, Walter From bowerbird at aol.com Sat Dec 26 11:58:16 2009 From: bowerbird at aol.com (bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 14:58:16 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: =?iso-8859-1?q?distributed_proofreaders=2C_bored_with_public_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?domain=A0_books=2C_swi?= Message-ID: <4c58.51287a17.3867c4d8@aol.com> walter said: > Just live and let live. i'm curious, walter. does "live and let live", as a philosophy, allow a person to make an observation? to register an opinion? to present argumentation? to share research? to lay out constructive criticism? or even unconstructive criticism? to engage in a barn-raising? to communicate in general? because i sense some inconsistencies in your position. but perhaps there is something i have misunderstood, so i am asking you for clarification first... after all, the vagaries of interpretation in cyberspace communications mean one can spin out all kinds of nonsense, but that doesn't really help anyone to come to greater understanding, does it? -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sat Dec 26 15:31:09 2009 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 15:31:09 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] New mobile reader (Fwd: Suggested wiki update - EPUB files readable on Windows Mobile by Freda) Message-ID: <20091226233109.GB11209@pglaf.org> If you have a Windows Mobile device and can test this software, please let me know what you think: www.jim-chapman.net/freda Thanks! Greg ----- Forwarded message from Jim Chapman ----- Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:15:20 +0000 From: Jim Chapman To: help at pglaf.org Subject: Suggested wiki update - EPUB files readable on Windows Mobile by Freda User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) Hi, I have a suggestion for you - you might want to consider updating your wiki entry at: http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg:Help_on_Bibliographic_Record_Page#EPUB You could mention the new program Freda (www.jim-chapman.net/freda), which I just released. It reads EPUBs on Windows Mobile devices (PDAs, phones, etc.). I've tested it on various Gutenberg EPUBs and it seems to do a decent job. Thanks, Jim ----- End forwarded message ----- Dr. Gregory B. Newby Chief Executive and Director Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation http://gutenberg.org A 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization with EIN 64-6221541 gbnewby at pglaf.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Sat Dec 26 18:05:52 2009 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 21:05:52 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: [gutvol-p] Re: Getting Involved Message-ID: john said: > Hello Al, Juliet and Jim: > Thanks for your detailed replies. i guess those detailed replies were sent backchannel. i wonder why, in response to a post sent to a public listserve, people reply privately. why not in public, so everyone benefits? > More generally, I now understand that, if I can contribute at all, > it would be to help in packaging content for others to convert > to PDF, XML, or whatever other format may become fashionable > In this connection, the reply from Juliet looks very enticing. again, why not put this "enticing" reply on the public record? > To explain: I am one of the XML true believers and > TEI, or something like it, is ultimately the way to go. i'm glad you shared that with us, john. it's always good to know when someone is "a true believer", and "logic" might not apply... > But TEI seeks to be all-inclusive and doomed to be > very big and complicated (think SGML). well, very good. at least your "true believer" status doesn't prevent you from seeing some problems with the religion... > And working with XML is so painful and error-prone for humans. again, most excellent. most of the "true believers" tend to gloss over the difficulties... but you seem to be more aware. > I don't know how big the PGTEI subset is, but > there is a good chance that it might be expressible in > lightly marked-up text, which can easily be parsed into XML. my research shows you can assume that a "lightly marked-up text" will indeed be sufficient to cover the p.g.t.e.i. subset, and i agree that the lightly marked-up text can easily be parsed into x.m.l. > If that were the case, I can become usefully involved at the DP end. it's possible. > To state Basil Fawlty's bleedingly obvious, > it might then become PG's long-term aim > to provide PGTEI versions of all texts, > from which all styled versions can be derived-- > and the only one version to be maintained. there is a certain appeal to that logic, unquestionably... (and, since it's _logic_, there's no religion needed here!) > In summary, without being very clear about it, > I had thought that I might be able to contribute to PG by > generating more refined documents from existing books > (gratuitous, I admit); but now I suspect that > I might be more useful by wrestling with the software. well, first, that original belief of yours was not "gratuitous". the fact that it doesn't fit nicely within the p.g. workflow is as much the fault of the workflow as with your orientation. but we know who holds the power in this situation. i'm not sure that your .pdfs were indeed "more refined" -- i have become a bit allergic to that typical latex look, and there were some other basic problems with your output -- but your original intention was certainly a worthwhile one. and it would have been fun to pursue that approach a while. > (gratuitous, I admit); but now I suspect that > I might be more useful by wrestling with the software. as i said, it's possible. but you might find some potholes on that road too. i'd suggest that you study what rfrank has done at d.p. you will learn a lot from the false paths he has taken... however, john, before you disengage here entirely, i must share a certain question with you. pardon my impertinence. there's no need for you to answer this question, or even try to answer it. and i will add that i have no motive here to challenge your status as a "true believer" even if i could. (and part of your being a "true believer" is that i could not.) however, for the sake of those of us who are _not_ "believers", let alone "true", i feel a need to articulate this side of the wall. you've conceded that t.e.i. and x.m.l. are too complicated for most humans, including the vast majority of volunteers at d.p. and you've posited that light mark-up can be converted into these more-complicated systems for storage as the "master" from which we could then generate multiple e-book formats. so this is the layout in your head, as far as i can tell: s = simple system = light mark-up c = complicated system = heavy markup (p.g.t.e.i. or x.m.l.) m = multiple e-book formats so you're suggesting that the workflow look like this: s -> c -> m where "s" is what people work on, "c" is the master format that is maintained as the p.g. library, and "m" is the output. in particular, you're saying that you might be of some use in converting "s" into "c". and perhaps also "c" into "m". cool... the question i have is this: why shouldn't "s" be the "master" format, instead of "c"? after all, you've conceded that "s" is simple to maintain, whereas "c" is difficult. so why not maintain the library in a _simple_ format, and then -- whenever we want to convert the books into the "m" multiple output formats -- make the s->c conversion the first step in that process? further, why not skip the "c" step entirely, and just convert "s" into "m" directly, if it's possible, and why wouldn't it be? oops. i guess that's two questions. but you get my drift... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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