From cannona at fireantproductions.com Mon Jan 4 14:59:53 2010 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:59:53 -0600 Subject: [gutvol-d] help with the DVD Message-ID: <628c29181001041459p20882c2emb7306c9a037b5877@mail.gmail.com> Hi all. I'm working on the DVD again, and I could use some help. I'm going through the list of books on the Best of CD and finding the HTML versions (when they exist) of each of them in the catalog. Unfortunately, the list of books on the CD don't come with Ebook numbers, nor do their titles match the catalog, so this can't be automated easily. So, I have to look at each title and author and manually look it up in the catalog, and then get the name of the zipped HTML version from that. It's a time consuming process, and it would sure go a lot faster if I had even one more person to help out. If anyone is interested in lending a hand, or would like more info, please let me know. Also, if I missed something, and there is in fact a way to automate this, please share. Thanks. Aaron From joey at joeysmith.com Mon Jan 4 16:40:42 2010 From: joey at joeysmith.com (Joey Smith) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 17:40:42 -0700 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: help with the DVD In-Reply-To: <628c29181001041459p20882c2emb7306c9a037b5877@mail.gmail.com> References: <628c29181001041459p20882c2emb7306c9a037b5877@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100105004042.GB10897@joeysmith.com> Aaron: I'd be glad to help, feel free to drop me a line off- (or on-)list. From gbnewby at pglaf.org Mon Jan 4 17:03:00 2010 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 17:03:00 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: help with the DVD In-Reply-To: <628c29181001041459p20882c2emb7306c9a037b5877@mail.gmail.com> References: <628c29181001041459p20882c2emb7306c9a037b5877@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100105010300.GB2979@pglaf.org> On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 04:59:53PM -0600, Aaron Cannon wrote: > Hi all. > > I'm working on the DVD again, and I could use some help. I'm going > through the list of books on the Best of CD and finding the HTML > versions (when they exist) of each of them in the catalog. > Unfortunately, the list of books on the CD don't come with Ebook > numbers, nor do their titles match the catalog, so this can't be > automated easily. So, I have to look at each title and author and > manually look it up in the catalog, and then get the name of the > zipped HTML version from that. > > It's a time consuming process, and it would sure go a lot faster if I > had even one more person to help out. If anyone is interested in > lending a hand, or would like more info, please let me know. Also, if > I missed something, and there is in fact a way to automate this, > please share. Do the filenames on the DVD match known filenames? If so, we could probably look them using the XML/RDF. I've been revitalizing the ISO creator at http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/ and it's just about ready, so could be used as a means of creating a new ISO. Working by eBook #s is by far the easiest approach. -- Greg From cannona at fireantproductions.com Tue Jan 5 12:39:26 2010 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 14:39:26 -0600 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: help with the DVD In-Reply-To: <20100105010300.GB2979@pglaf.org> References: <628c29181001041459p20882c2emb7306c9a037b5877@mail.gmail.com> <20100105010300.GB2979@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <628c29181001051239n7c70b4aexbc39d2fe0c06c239@mail.gmail.com> Hi Greg. The filenames are in the old etextXX/XXXXX10.zip format, so the catalog won't match many of them. Glad to hear that the ISO creator is coming back. I'm not sure if it will help too much this late in the process however. Basically, aside from getting the HTML versions of the titles on the CD onto the DVD, all that's left to do is create the indexes. I'm also going to try to import the bookshelves, to provide some limited categorization. (BTW, if anyone has been meaning to update their favorite bookshelf but hasn't done so, you might want to do so ASAP, in order that the best version possible make it onto the DVD.) Thanks! Aaron Cannon On 1/4/10, Greg Newby wrote: > On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 04:59:53PM -0600, Aaron Cannon wrote: >> Hi all. >> >> I'm working on the DVD again, and I could use some help. I'm going >> through the list of books on the Best of CD and finding the HTML >> versions (when they exist) of each of them in the catalog. >> Unfortunately, the list of books on the CD don't come with Ebook >> numbers, nor do their titles match the catalog, so this can't be >> automated easily. So, I have to look at each title and author and >> manually look it up in the catalog, and then get the name of the >> zipped HTML version from that. >> >> It's a time consuming process, and it would sure go a lot faster if I >> had even one more person to help out. If anyone is interested in >> lending a hand, or would like more info, please let me know. Also, if >> I missed something, and there is in fact a way to automate this, >> please share. > > Do the filenames on the DVD match known filenames? If so, > we could probably look them using the XML/RDF. > > I've been revitalizing the ISO creator at http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/ > and it's just about ready, so could be used as a means of creating > a new ISO. Working by eBook #s is by far the easiest approach. > > -- Greg > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From marcello at perathoner.de Tue Jan 5 12:52:56 2010 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 21:52:56 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: help with the DVD In-Reply-To: <628c29181001051239n7c70b4aexbc39d2fe0c06c239@mail.gmail.com> References: <628c29181001041459p20882c2emb7306c9a037b5877@mail.gmail.com> <20100105010300.GB2979@pglaf.org> <628c29181001051239n7c70b4aexbc39d2fe0c06c239@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B43A6A8.1010905@perathoner.de> Aaron Cannon wrote: > The filenames are in the old etextXX/XXXXX10.zip format, so the > catalog won't match many of them. All files, current and long gone ones, are still in the database. If you give me an ascii list of all filenames one filename per line I can get you a list of all ebook nos. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From gbnewby at pglaf.org Tue Jan 5 16:28:09 2010 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 16:28:09 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Public domain day 2010: "What could have been entering the public domain on January 1, 2010" Message-ID: <20100106002809.GA6118@pglaf.org> Good stuff: http://www.law.duke.edu/cspd/publicdomainday/pre1976 -- Greg From jimad at msn.com Wed Jan 6 17:14:35 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 17:14:35 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] New E-book Readers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kindle DX now available in an international version (personally I wish they would add wifi) http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=176060&p=irol-news Rumors of an Apple Slate version and e-book store: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/09/apple-tablet-everything/ Santa brought me a netbook computer, so I can now directly compare a netbook computer to a Kindle DX: The netbook when closed has about the same footprint as a DX, but is three times heavier and three times as thick. When opened it is twice as big as the DX but has a display size which is slightly smaller. Downloading to the netbook via wifi is MUCH better than downloading to the Kindle DX via Whispernet. The screen is in landscape format whereas on the DX it is the preferable portrait orientation. The screen resolution on a netbook is 100 dpi verses 150 dpi on the DX. In terms of pts, this means that 5 pts is barely readable on the netbook vs. 3 pts on a DX vs. 1 pt fonts are readable on a laser printer. Not that you want to read that small -- but rather just to give you a figure of relative legibility. Why does one care? Well, I TRY reading books on the netbook and after reading a couple pages I say "forgetaboutit" and I take a USB cable and connect the DX to the netbook and transfer the e-book over to the Kindle where I experience a "true book experience." Reading on a netbook, to my taste, never ever feels like really reading a book, whereas on the DX it does feel like really reading a book. Why, I ask myself? The only answers I can come up with are 1) the higher resolution on the DX makes reading less tiresome. 2) the simpler interface on the DX [once you actually get the e-book there] is less intrusive on the reading experience than all the mickey mouse trackball rigmarole and special function keys found on the netbook 3) the netbook is too heavy to read holding in one hand. 4) the glossy display on the netbook reflects images but personally I don't find that too bothersome 5) the netbook battery keeps running out whereas the DX runs for a week between charges. So personally I will continue with the e-ink experience in spite of that technology's limitations and "forget about" LCD displays at least until something comes along with much higher resolution and longer battery life. I still like the netbook a whole lot for watching kat videos on YouTube and looking up the daily weather report.... From desrod at gnu-designs.com Wed Jan 6 19:51:31 2010 From: desrod at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 22:51:31 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New E-book Readers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 8:14 PM, Jim Adcock wrote: > Santa brought me a netbook computer, so I can now directly compare a netbook > computer to a Kindle DX: Wait, what? When did netbooks start coming with eInk screens? Got a model number? From hart at pglaf.org Thu Jan 7 06:36:42 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 06:36:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New E-book Readers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jan 2010, David A. Desrosiers wrote: > On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 8:14 PM, Jim Adcock wrote: > > Santa brought me a netbook computer, so I can now directly compare a netbook > > computer to a Kindle DX: > > Wait, what? When did netbooks start coming with eInk screens? Got a > model number? Wait, What? When did eReaders starting having to come with eInk? Got a product definition? I'm sure the eInk patent holders would be thrilled, though. Let's see. . .how many eReaders were out there before eInk? Does this mean we have to hire Winston Smith to rewrite history? From jimad at msn.com Thu Jan 7 11:35:47 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 11:35:47 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New E-book Readers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Wait, what? When did netbooks start coming with eInk screens? Got a > model number? Sorry, netbooks don't come with e-Ink screens -- I wish they did, but then they would need some kind of new operating system that understands the refresh limitations of e-Ink screens. What I was doing was following up on a thread from before Xmas where Michael and I and et al were hashing out what kinds of devices one can ACTUALLY use to read PG books. One can certainly just print them out on a Laser Jet printer and read them on paper, but then, really, what's the point? One wants books in an electronic form so that one can read them in an electronic form. I for one, cannot imagine sitting at my desk reading War and Peace on my desktop computer! The question then becomes, what kind of devices does one actually read PG books on? Why should PG volunteers care? Well, we shouldn't, unless PG is doing a weak job of supporting those devices people actually want to read e-books on, in which case PG is doing a poor job of making our efforts useful to the real world out there. What various people have proposed that the "real world" ought to be reading e-books on include: Cell phones Kindles Sony Ebook Readers Netbooks Netbooks and some Cell phones want files in HTML format. Some cell phones with add-on software can also handle MOBI and EPUB format. Netbooks with add-on software can also handle MOBI and EPUB format. While I am a fan of the Kindle series of e-book readers as offering the most "book like" reading experience of any electronic device I have been able to find, I was hopeful of being able to use a Netbook with add-on MOBI and EPUB reader support in order to make a "vendor agnostic" version of an e-book reader that would not raise the hackles of some PG'ers the way that Amazon and the Kindle does -- because, let's be honest, eventually DRM *IS* going to start to bring the efforts of organizations like PG to grief -- one might argue that the most recent "Mickey Mouse" Copyright Laws *ARE* already a response to DRM and publishers wanting to maintain a royalty flow "forever" instead of for the constitutionally mandated finite period of time. So, anyway Santa brought me a netbook for Xmas and I tried using it as an e-book reader but I rapidly found after trying to read a book on it more than a few pages I would want to transfer that book to the Kindle and read it there. Why? Primarily because of the difference between LCD display technology and e-Ink technology. And why does that matter? As far as I can figure out, it is because LCD display technology is lower resolution than e-Ink technology, causing the eyes and the brain to tire more quickly. Also LCD display have the "screen door" effect, where the fine-line horizontal and vertical separating line between each LCD pixel leads one to the feeling that one is reading a book through a "screen door." Now clearly some people care about these issues more than others -- for example I just borrowed a hard-copy of My Antonia for comparison and I am now struck at just how poorly that paperback book is printed! There are too many words per line, the font chosen is too light, the paper chosen is too yellow, etc.... One might propose that one needs a hybrid machine with a fast LCD display and fast wifi connection in conjunction with a separate e-Ink display to read the books on -- such is what B&N made in their Nook, except they poorly implemented it, and totally hamstrung the device so that you can ONLY get books from B&N, basically. Or you could "make" such a device for yourself by connecting a netbook to a Kindle for example, using the netbook to browse the web and then connect the Kindle to the netbook and transfer the e-book files to the Kindle to actually read them there. Which is in fact what I am doing, except now one has a netbook and USB cable laying around while one reads on the Kindle. Or if you take the Kindle on the airplane with you, then presumably the netbook stays home. And after a while, connecting a Kindle to a PC with a USB cable every time you want to transfer an e-book because tiresome. From donovan at abs.net Thu Jan 7 11:52:03 2010 From: donovan at abs.net (D Garcia) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 14:52:03 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New E-book Readers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201001071452.04293.donovan@abs.net> James Adcock said: > Sorry, netbooks don't come with e-Ink screens -- I wish they did, but then > they would need some kind of new operating system that understands the > refresh limitations of e-Ink screens. In reality, all that's necessary is a device driver that understands that, and those already exist. From jimad at msn.com Thu Jan 7 12:28:42 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 12:28:42 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New E-book Readers In-Reply-To: <201001071452.04293.donovan@abs.net> References: <201001071452.04293.donovan@abs.net> Message-ID: >In reality, all that's necessary is a device driver that understands that, and >those already exist. Sorry, can you give a pointer to an actual example? From grythumn at gmail.com Thu Jan 7 12:34:33 2010 From: grythumn at gmail.com (Robert Cicconetti) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 15:34:33 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New E-book Readers In-Reply-To: <201001071452.04293.donovan@abs.net> References: <201001071452.04293.donovan@abs.net> Message-ID: <15cfa2a51001071234l552095c2p733c937a7199bc72@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 2:52 PM, D Garcia wrote: > James Adcock said: > > Sorry, netbooks don't come with e-Ink screens -- I wish they did, but then > > they would need some kind of new operating system that understands the > > refresh limitations of e-Ink screens. > > In reality, all that's necessary is a device driver that understands that, and > those already exist. Most UIs rely on immediate visual feedback. Assuming screen refresh latencies on the order of 1-4 seconds, any standard UI will feel extremely sluggish. Partial screen refreshes may be much faster... I haven't read any datasheets for the parts involved. -Bob From greg at durendal.org Thu Jan 7 13:45:34 2010 From: greg at durendal.org (Greg Weeks) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 16:45:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [gutvol-d] [SPAM] Re: Re: New E-book Readers In-Reply-To: <15cfa2a51001071234l552095c2p733c937a7199bc72@mail.gmail.com> References: <201001071452.04293.donovan@abs.net> <15cfa2a51001071234l552095c2p733c937a7199bc72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jan 2010, Robert Cicconetti wrote: > Partial screen refreshes may be much faster... I haven't read any > datasheets for the parts involved. The early parts could not do partial refreshes. I haven't looked at eink since about 2001 though. They were like a flash part, you sent them an erase command and then sent which pixels you wanted changed. Flash parts now do the erases in many smaller blocks. -- Greg Weeks http://durendal.org:8080/greg/ From cannona at fireantproductions.com Thu Jan 7 13:53:17 2010 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 15:53:17 -0600 Subject: [gutvol-d] books without a zip version Message-ID: <628c29181001071353of0970ffyb9ea8f51f9380df5@mail.gmail.com> Hi all. I've noticed that there are a few .txt books, and a few .rtf books in the collection that don't have zip versions. Is there any reason for this? One example is: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/30152 This rtf file could be compressed to about 16% of its uncompressed size. Was there some stipulation from this particular copyright holder that his books not be zipped? Thanks. Aaron From pterandon at gmail.com Thu Jan 7 14:58:33 2010 From: pterandon at gmail.com (Greg M. Johnson) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 17:58:33 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Help with the DVD Message-ID: Hi. I have a current version a DVD with 3850 PG books in HTML format. It's biased towards my tastes, but I did try to use some objective "Best Of ..." lists to choose books, and with a number as high as 3850, it may beyond a bias from my personal tastes. Here is the Wordle for the titles: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pterandon/3758402023/in/photostream/ I also did a lot of culling of large MB books in favor of getting a larger selection of high quality material. For example, just about all of Mark Twain is gone, and every one of the "Quotes and Images" creations. :-P I have them accessible by an HTML file, grouped by a genre. One interesting thing is that I used a linux box to burn the DVD, and in so doing was able to remove the Windows thumbnails file-thing, greatly increasing the number of works again. I wanted someone to look at this with a critical eye to see how it affects the usability on a Windows box. I'm guessing that Windows only *needs* those files when you're browsing the folders with Windows Explorer-- something we don't necessarily want to prevent but don't need to encourage either. But will Windows' resources be consumed with making those thumbnail things each and every time the DVD is put in a Windows box? -- Greg M. Johnson http://pterandon.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bowerbird at aol.com Thu Jan 7 16:42:43 2010 From: bowerbird at aol.com (bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 19:42:43 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] good luck, mr. kretz Message-ID: over on a d.p. forum, dkretz said: > I've just taken several EB projects and > actually looked at the errors corrected in P1/P2 > (they don't get to P3 fast enough to be useful) > and most fixes could have been identified and > applied in pre-processing, and/or highlighted by > better proofing tools in the rounds. > > http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=629620#629620 i'd like to thank don for (re-)doing my missionary work. of course, the d.p. "powers that be" have ignored don for as many years as they've ignored me, but since he hasn't pissed them off to the point of _banning_ him, he's still able to fight the good fight against d.p. stupidity. he continues: > We've got to start planning and managing our work better. > We've learned so much in the years of our existence; > we've learned how much we don't know, but could find out > and use for feedback; and it's in our own interest > to get smarter about how we do our work. good luck, mr. kretz... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 8 00:37:20 2010 From: walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl (Walter van Holst) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 09:37:20 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New E-book Readers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B46EEC0.7020606@xs4all.nl> On 1/7/10 3:36 PM, Michael S. Hart wrote: > > On Wed, 6 Jan 2010, David A. Desrosiers wrote: > >> On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 8:14 PM, Jim Adcock wrote: >>> Santa brought me a netbook computer, so I can now directly compare a netbook >>> computer to a Kindle DX: >> >> Wait, what? When did netbooks start coming with eInk screens? Got a >> model number? > > Wait, What? When did eReaders starting having to come with eInk? Since when have LCD screens become comparable to eInk screens? The point made was that it otherwise is a comparison of apples and oranges. Regards, Walter (has used netbooks and an iRex iLiad extensively and the iLiad wins hands down in the readability department) From schultzk at uni-trier.de Fri Jan 8 05:38:55 2010 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Keith J. Schultz) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:38:55 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New E-book Readers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi James, All, Am 07.01.2010 um 20:35 schrieb James Adcock: >> Wait, what? When did netbooks start coming with eInk screens? Got a >> model number? > > Sorry, netbooks don't come with e-Ink screens -- I wish they did, but then > they would need some kind of new operating system that understands the > refresh limitations of e-Ink screens. > > What I was doing was following up on a thread from before Xmas where Michael > and I and et al were hashing out what kinds of devices one can ACTUALLY use > to read PG books. One can certainly just print them out on a Laser Jet > printer and read them on paper, but then, really, what's the point? One > wants books in an electronic form so that one can read them in an electronic > form. I for one, cannot imagine sitting at my desk reading War and Peace on > my desktop computer! The question then becomes, what kind of devices does > one actually read PG books on? Why should PG volunteers care? Well, we > shouldn't, unless PG is doing a weak job of supporting those devices people > actually want to read e-books on, in which case PG is doing a poor job of > making our efforts useful to the real world out there. What various people > have proposed that the "real world" ought to be reading e-books on include: > > Cell phones > > Kindles > > Sony Ebook Readers > > Netbooks Well might as well add 17" Laptops. Fits nice and comfy on my lap or stomach when lying flat. keeps me nice and cosy, too. regards Keith. From desrod at gnu-designs.com Fri Jan 8 06:30:06 2010 From: desrod at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 09:30:06 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New E-book Readers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 2:35 PM, James Adcock wrote: > Sorry, netbooks don't come with e-Ink screens -- I wish they did, but then > they would need some kind of new operating system that understands the > refresh limitations of e-Ink screens. You mean like Android, based on Linux? Alex: http://www.springdesign.com/ Nook: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/nook/features/ ...and others. Plenty of OS' out there that currently run on netbooks natively understand eInk screens. From hart at pglaf.org Fri Jan 8 07:55:44 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 07:55:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Bold New E-readers Grab Attention at CES Message-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/01/08/ces.ereader/index.html From ke at gnu.franken.de Sat Jan 9 06:54:30 2010 From: ke at gnu.franken.de (Karl Eichwalder) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 15:54:30 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] XML master files (Re: Re: DP's "internal markup") In-Reply-To: <627d59b80912162028i62f43dd0hc67b19e01463fa10@mail.gmail.com> (don kretz's message of "Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:28:50 -0800") References: <4AAB6E4B.4000004@perathoner.de> <4AAB8E46.1080305@perathoner.de> <4AABDAC7.7080609@perathoner.de> <2362473e0909121056va506760t46236c031dea0a43@mail.gmail.com> <4AABE4C4.4050704@perathoner.de> <20091217024628.GA22466@joeysmith.com> <627d59b80912162028i62f43dd0hc67b19e01463fa10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: don kretz writes: > And though each project's final phase involves a great deal of manual > work resulting in a polished text that is the basis for both the versions > released to PG, it's interesting to note that there is no facility provided > for actually preserving this foundation text version. Oversimplifying a bit, > the text version removes a bunch of information, and the html version > adds a bunch of stuff. Arguably the most valuable text (for content and > metadata) is, at best, on someone's PC somewhere. Probably, but not necessarily. I produced an XML master file (TEI) where e. g., I kept corrections as follows (German example, Handbuch der deutschen Kunstdenkm?ler, Bd.1, Mitteldeutschland, 1914 by Georg Dehio, http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/19460): Die Marmorstatuen und Vasen des Gartens (einst 150) in Rom und Venedig bestellt, Or dubious words or phrases with simple sic! statements: wagerechte I even kept page-breaks inbetween words and references to the original scans (Jon Noring once recommended something along these lines for every hyphenated word!): Besonders merkw?rdig'> ein bogenf?rmiger rom. Altaraufsatz aus Stuck, ====================================================================== You wont notice all this in the offered TXT and HTML, but if wanted you can customize the XSL style-sheet and produce special purpose output files in HTML or PDF. My output files are by no means perfect, but good enough for demonstration. -- Karl Eichwalder From ajhaines at shaw.ca Sat Jan 9 08:57:41 2010 From: ajhaines at shaw.ca (Al Haines (shaw)) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 08:57:41 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: books without a zip version References: <628c29181001071353of0970ffyb9ea8f51f9380df5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: FYI - this particular issue has been referred to its original poster. Aaron has been informed, and I've asked him to report any other similar instances directly to the Whitewashers. Al ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Cannon" To: "Project Gutenberg Volunteer Discussion" Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:53 PM Subject: [gutvol-d] books without a zip version > Hi all. > > I've noticed that there are a few .txt books, and a few .rtf books in > the collection that don't have zip versions. > > Is there any reason for this? One example is: > http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/30152 > > This rtf file could be compressed to about 16% of its uncompressed > size. Was there some stipulation from this particular copyright > holder that his books not be zipped? > > Thanks. > > Aaron > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From jimad at msn.com Sat Jan 9 18:21:41 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 18:21:41 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New E-book Readers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >You mean like Android, based on Linux? Android isn't typically running on e-Ink displays, unless you mean Moto's prototype work: http://gizmodo.com/5152928/android-on-e+ink-induces-headaches-is-actually-gr eat-news-for-ebook-readers Pixil Qi has a display technology that probably would work better with Android than e-Ink: http://www.pixelqi.com Though it's hard to really tell because their web site doesn't give any specs. From cannona at fireantproductions.com Sat Jan 9 20:08:25 2010 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 22:08:25 -0600 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Help with the DVD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <628c29181001092008m141c81cahce92349fea3992a6@mail.gmail.com> Is this DVD available for download somewhere? Aaron On 1/7/10, Greg M. Johnson wrote: > Hi. > > I have a current version a DVD with 3850 PG books in HTML format. It's > biased towards my tastes, but I did try to use some objective "Best Of ..." > lists to choose books, and with a number as high as 3850, it may beyond a > bias from my personal tastes. Here is the Wordle for the titles: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/pterandon/3758402023/in/photostream/ > > I also did a lot of culling of large MB books in favor of getting a larger > selection of high quality material. For example, just about all of Mark > Twain is gone, and every one of the "Quotes and Images" creations. :-P > > I have them accessible by an HTML file, grouped by a genre. > > One interesting thing is that I used a linux box to burn the DVD, and in so > doing was able to remove the Windows thumbnails file-thing, greatly > increasing the number of works again. I wanted someone to look at this with > a critical eye to see how it affects the usability on a Windows box. I'm > guessing that Windows only *needs* those files when you're browsing the > folders with Windows Explorer-- something we don't necessarily want to > prevent but don't need to encourage either. But will Windows' resources > be consumed with making those thumbnail things each and every time the DVD > is put in a Windows box? > > > > > > -- > Greg M. Johnson > http://pterandon.blogspot.com > From jimad at msn.com Sat Jan 9 21:27:50 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 21:27:50 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Bold New E-readers Grab Attention at CES In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Que to be sold through B&N -- Que is an e-Ink device displaying a full 8.5 x 11 page, with wifi, and/or 3G and directly supporting PDF and EPUB, etc. Sales starting in April. Press Release from CES: http://www.que.com/news/ Product Specs: http://www.que.com/ From hart at pglaf.org Sun Jan 10 01:18:32 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 01:18:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Help with the DVD In-Reply-To: <628c29181001092008m141c81cahce92349fea3992a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <628c29181001092008m141c81cahce92349fea3992a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Newby can put an image online for you, presuming it all works out. mh On Sat, 9 Jan 2010, Aaron Cannon wrote: > Is this DVD available for download somewhere? > > Aaron > > On 1/7/10, Greg M. Johnson wrote: > > Hi. > > > > I have a current version a DVD with 3850 PG books in HTML format. It's > > biased towards my tastes, but I did try to use some objective "Best Of ..." > > lists to choose books, and with a number as high as 3850, it may beyond a > > bias from my personal tastes. Here is the Wordle for the titles: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/pterandon/3758402023/in/photostream/ > > > > I also did a lot of culling of large MB books in favor of getting a larger > > selection of high quality material. For example, just about all of Mark > > Twain is gone, and every one of the "Quotes and Images" creations. :-P > > > > I have them accessible by an HTML file, grouped by a genre. > > > > One interesting thing is that I used a linux box to burn the DVD, and in so > > doing was able to remove the Windows thumbnails file-thing, greatly > > increasing the number of works again. I wanted someone to look at this with > > a critical eye to see how it affects the usability on a Windows box. I'm > > guessing that Windows only *needs* those files when you're browsing the > > folders with Windows Explorer-- something we don't necessarily want to > > prevent but don't need to encourage either. But will Windows' resources > > be consumed with making those thumbnail things each and every time the DVD > > is put in a Windows box? > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Greg M. Johnson > > http://pterandon.blogspot.com > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From gbuchana at teksavvy.com Sun Jan 10 15:51:39 2010 From: gbuchana at teksavvy.com (Gardner Buchanan) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 18:51:39 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] What happens to page images these days? Message-ID: <4B4A680B.60305@teksavvy.com> A dumb question... It's been a while since I've submitted a project based on a physical volume (rather than on scans from somewhere online). It seems like once upon a time there was a place the scans were meant to go. The PG submission system does not seem geared to take original page scans. Is there somewhere they would like to be? Thanks, ============================================================ Gardner Buchanan Ottawa, ON FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today. From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sun Jan 10 16:06:51 2010 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:06:51 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: What happens to page images these days? In-Reply-To: <4B4A680B.60305@teksavvy.com> References: <4B4A680B.60305@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <20100111000651.GA11734@pglaf.org> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 06:51:39PM -0500, Gardner Buchanan wrote: > A dumb question... Not at all! > It's been a while since I've submitted a project based > on a physical volume (rather than on scans from somewhere > online). It seems like once upon a time there was a place > the scans were meant to go. The PG submission system > does not seem geared to take original page scans. Is > there somewhere they would like to be? Gardner, this is something we are set up to do, and have filenaming conventions for. Because such images are usually too big for the main upload interface at http://upload.pglaf.org , we usually get them separately via FTP, with a little email to the pgww list. DP does not regularly provide images (though they do keep them perpetually), though they have been encouraged to do so. I don't think there is anything preventing a DP PM from submitting images along with the finished eBook, if they are interested in doing do. -- Greg From jimad at msn.com Wed Jan 13 09:07:01 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:07:01 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Kindle 2 Free Major Software Upgrade -- now supports PDF and Landscape Mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kindle 2 has just overcome a major limitation in that it now supports PDF files and Landscape Mode. I have confirmed that this works well with Google Books PDF files -- although one does need to use the Kindle 2 in Landscape Mode in order that the results be big enough to read. How to manually force an update on your K2: http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=200324680 From cannona at fireantproductions.com Sat Jan 16 16:56:18 2010 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:56:18 -0600 Subject: [gutvol-d] help finalizing the January 2010 DVD Message-ID: <628c29181001161656h4d5fb0d6w44a630f7c4460961@mail.gmail.com> Hi all. Finally, the DVD is all but done. I just need some help from folks more qualified than I with these last few items: 1. Editorial help: I need a few eyes to look over the main page and other content in the root directory of the DVD. I'm looking for suggestions on spelling/grammar changes, as well as suggestions for text that should be added. 2. Design help. I need someone who knows HTML and especially CSS to create a CSS file for the DVD. None of the HTML elements have class attributes, but I can add those easily. Just tell me where you want them. Also, if other changes need to be made to the HTML, again just let me know what. I believe all of the pages validate, but if you find any that don't, please let me know. 3. Image help. This has 3 parts: A. Some sort of image should probably be added to the main page on the DVD, and optionally to the tops of all of the HTML pages on the disc. Again, just send me the code to add, and I will add it to each page. You don't need to edit all 30,000 files your self. B. It would be nice to have a small .ico file created so that the DVD will display an icon when inserted into a Windows computer. Also, if anyone knows how to do the same for Macs, that would be great. C. There is a DVD label which was created for the original Project Gutenberg DVD. It needs to be updated for this new DVD. ftp://ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/gutenberg/images/GutenbergDVDCover.psd Also see ftp://ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/gutenberg/images/GutenbergCD-DVDCover.png You can download a .tar.bz2 file containing all of the content on the DVD minus the books themselves at http://fireantproductions.com/dvdindexes.tar.bz2 It's about 5MB. If you don't have a way to open .tar.bz2 files, you can download the much larger .zip version of the same thing: http://fireantproductions.com/dvdindexes.zip (about 25MB) or you can browse the content online at http://fireantproductions.com/dvd/ Thanks in advance! Aaron Cannon From gbuchana at teksavvy.com Sat Jan 16 18:44:23 2010 From: gbuchana at teksavvy.com (Gardner Buchanan) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 21:44:23 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: help finalizing the January 2010 DVD In-Reply-To: <628c29181001161656h4d5fb0d6w44a630f7c4460961@mail.gmail.com> References: <628c29181001161656h4d5fb0d6w44a630f7c4460961@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B527987.3090800@teksavvy.com> Hi Aaron. On 3.c, the PSD just has a flat bitmap in it. Kind of unfortunate that it doesn't have the text on a separate layer. If you can tell me what you want the new text to say, I can change it. Let me know. Aaron Cannon wrote: > Hi all. > > Finally, the DVD is all but done. I just need some help from folks > more qualified than I with these last few items: > > 1. Editorial help: > I need a few eyes to look over the main page and other content in the > root directory of the DVD. I'm looking for suggestions on > spelling/grammar changes, as well as suggestions for text that should > be added. > > 2. Design help. > I need someone who knows HTML and especially CSS to create a CSS file > for the DVD. None of the HTML elements have class attributes, but I > can add those easily. Just tell me where you want them. Also, if > other changes need to be made to the HTML, again just let me know > what. I believe all of the pages validate, but if you find any that > don't, please let me know. > > 3. Image help. This has 3 parts: > A. Some sort of image should probably be added to the main page on the > DVD, and optionally to the tops of all of the HTML pages on the disc. > Again, just send me the code to add, and I will add it to each page. > You don't need to edit all 30,000 files your self. > B. It would be nice to have a small .ico file created so that the DVD > will display an icon when inserted into a Windows computer. Also, if > anyone knows how to do the same for Macs, that would be great. > C. There is a DVD label which was created for the original Project > Gutenberg DVD. It needs to be updated for this new DVD. > ftp://ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/gutenberg/images/GutenbergDVDCover.psd > Also see > ftp://ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/gutenberg/images/GutenbergCD-DVDCover.png > > You can download a .tar.bz2 file containing all of the content on the > DVD minus the books themselves at > http://fireantproductions.com/dvdindexes.tar.bz2 > It's about 5MB. > > > If you don't have a way to open .tar.bz2 files, you can download the > much larger .zip version of the same thing: > http://fireantproductions.com/dvdindexes.zip > (about 25MB) > > or you can browse the content online at > http://fireantproductions.com/dvd/ > > Thanks in advance! > > Aaron Cannon > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > -- ============================================================ Gardner Buchanan Ottawa, ON FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today. From cannona at fireantproductions.com Sat Jan 16 18:54:41 2010 From: cannona at fireantproductions.com (Aaron Cannon) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 20:54:41 -0600 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: help finalizing the January 2010 DVD In-Reply-To: <4B527987.3090800@teksavvy.com> References: <628c29181001161656h4d5fb0d6w44a630f7c4460961@mail.gmail.com> <4B527987.3090800@teksavvy.com> Message-ID: <628c29181001161854w7aff5ed8h2d0f25397a6eee31@mail.gmail.com> Hi. Thanks for your help with this. I'm not sure what it should say. What does it say now? I don't have photoshop, so I can't open it, and I'm blind so I couldn't read it even if I did. :) Thanks! Aaron On 1/16/10, Gardner Buchanan wrote: > Hi Aaron. > > On 3.c, the PSD just has a flat bitmap in it. Kind of unfortunate > that it doesn't have the text on a separate layer. > > If you can tell me what you want the new text to say, I can change it. > > Let me know. > > > Aaron Cannon wrote: >> Hi all. >> >> Finally, the DVD is all but done. I just need some help from folks >> more qualified than I with these last few items: >> >> 1. Editorial help: >> I need a few eyes to look over the main page and other content in the >> root directory of the DVD. I'm looking for suggestions on >> spelling/grammar changes, as well as suggestions for text that should >> be added. >> >> 2. Design help. >> I need someone who knows HTML and especially CSS to create a CSS file >> for the DVD. None of the HTML elements have class attributes, but I >> can add those easily. Just tell me where you want them. Also, if >> other changes need to be made to the HTML, again just let me know >> what. I believe all of the pages validate, but if you find any that >> don't, please let me know. >> >> 3. Image help. This has 3 parts: >> A. Some sort of image should probably be added to the main page on the >> DVD, and optionally to the tops of all of the HTML pages on the disc. >> Again, just send me the code to add, and I will add it to each page. >> You don't need to edit all 30,000 files your self. >> B. It would be nice to have a small .ico file created so that the DVD >> will display an icon when inserted into a Windows computer. Also, if >> anyone knows how to do the same for Macs, that would be great. >> C. There is a DVD label which was created for the original Project >> Gutenberg DVD. It needs to be updated for this new DVD. >> ftp://ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/gutenberg/images/GutenbergDVDCover.psd >> Also see >> ftp://ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/gutenberg/images/GutenbergCD-DVDCover.png >> >> You can download a .tar.bz2 file containing all of the content on the >> DVD minus the books themselves at >> http://fireantproductions.com/dvdindexes.tar.bz2 >> It's about 5MB. >> >> >> If you don't have a way to open .tar.bz2 files, you can download the >> much larger .zip version of the same thing: >> http://fireantproductions.com/dvdindexes.zip >> (about 25MB) >> >> or you can browse the content online at >> http://fireantproductions.com/dvd/ >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> Aaron Cannon >> _______________________________________________ >> gutvol-d mailing list >> gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org >> http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d >> > > > -- > ============================================================ > Gardner Buchanan > Ottawa, ON FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today. > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From gbuchana at teksavvy.com Sat Jan 16 21:05:21 2010 From: gbuchana at teksavvy.com (Gardner Buchanan) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 00:05:21 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: help finalizing the January 2010 DVD In-Reply-To: <628c29181001161656h4d5fb0d6w44a630f7c4460961@mail.gmail.com> References: <628c29181001161656h4d5fb0d6w44a630f7c4460961@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B529A91.8000204@teksavvy.com> Here's some artwork for 3.A... If folks like it, I can provide in multiple resolutions and PSD originals. Aaron Cannon wrote: > Hi all. > > Finally, the DVD is all but done. I just need some help from folks > more qualified than I with these last few items: > > 1. Editorial help: > I need a few eyes to look over the main page and other content in the > root directory of the DVD. I'm looking for suggestions on > spelling/grammar changes, as well as suggestions for text that should > be added. > > 2. Design help. > I need someone who knows HTML and especially CSS to create a CSS file > for the DVD. None of the HTML elements have class attributes, but I > can add those easily. Just tell me where you want them. Also, if > other changes need to be made to the HTML, again just let me know > what. I believe all of the pages validate, but if you find any that > don't, please let me know. > > 3. Image help. This has 3 parts: > A. Some sort of image should probably be added to the main page on the > DVD, and optionally to the tops of all of the HTML pages on the disc. > Again, just send me the code to add, and I will add it to each page. > You don't need to edit all 30,000 files your self. > B. It would be nice to have a small .ico file created so that the DVD > will display an icon when inserted into a Windows computer. Also, if > anyone knows how to do the same for Macs, that would be great. > C. There is a DVD label which was created for the original Project > Gutenberg DVD. It needs to be updated for this new DVD. > ftp://ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/gutenberg/images/GutenbergDVDCover.psd > Also see > ftp://ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/gutenberg/images/GutenbergCD-DVDCover.png > > You can download a .tar.bz2 file containing all of the content on the > DVD minus the books themselves at > http://fireantproductions.com/dvdindexes.tar.bz2 > It's about 5MB. > > > If you don't have a way to open .tar.bz2 files, you can download the > much larger .zip version of the same thing: > http://fireantproductions.com/dvdindexes.zip > (about 25MB) > > or you can browse the content online at > http://fireantproductions.com/dvd/ > > Thanks in advance! > > Aaron Cannon > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > -- ============================================================ Gardner Buchanan Ottawa, ON FreeBSD: Where you want to go. 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Name: books.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 65438 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bowerbird at aol.com Mon Jan 18 23:10:51 2010 From: bowerbird at aol.com (bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 02:10:51 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] say it loud, say it proud Message-ID: <460c2.3e3d0fc8.3886b4fb@aol.com> happy martin luther king jr. day! i am again being amused by stuff over at distributed proofreaders... you might remember that in the past, i reviewed a lot of work by roger frank. even though he was doing some of the most advanced work over there at d.p., he was still wasting lots and lots of time being donated by the volunteers there, and i pointed out this truth with evidence. roger took all kinds of offense, and ended up calling me all kinds of names before storming out of here without engaging in any discussion. and that's sad, because he coulda learned a lot... as it is, though, he's teaching himself, slowly and surely, and will eventually -- after a long time -- find himself in the positions i advocated all along. it's just that he could have advanced himself to that point a whole lot faster if he would've listened to me. but, you know, everybody chooses their own pathway... anyway, roger's newest project is a test of a "roundless" system for digitizing books. you can see discussion here: > http://www.pgdp.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=42331 -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bowerbird at aol.com Wed Jan 20 11:07:02 2010 From: bowerbird at aol.com (bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 14:07:02 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] something really stupid Message-ID: ok, so after about a year or so when the "dissent" at distributed proofreaders had exhausted itself, and nobody was questioning anything any more, the natives have once again become semi-restless. so there is now a whole handful of forum threads where people are once again thrashing stuff out... (ironically, many of the people who worked hardest to shut me up have now become the loudest voices registering their own discontent. rather amusing.) as usual, the discussions are a rats-nest of quality. some people have good observations and ideas, and other people have lousy ones, and the masses are unable to distinguish the good from the lousy. and nobody knows what they need to do in order to make anything actually _happen_, and by this time, most of them have become acutely aware of _that_, so it's amusing to watch their frustration boil over... and it's still good to see that they are _trying_... i made note of rfrank's test of a "roundless" system, which is one of the more positive things going on... (it's interesting that roger's distaste for open debate, which manifested here on this listserve, extends to his action over there as well, so he does his research outside of the purview of d.p. "proper" so he doesn't have to deal with anyone whose input he doesn't like, so he's kept himself "above the fray" using that tactic. he'll also opt out of a thread if it gets "unproductive" in his mind, and just start up a new thread elsewhere.) at any rate, one of the _worst_ ideas being floated now involves attempts to "reduce" output from p1 proofers. this is one of those awful ideas that keeps cropping up, due to a few people with more persistence than brains... the "problem" is that there are lots of p1 proofers who are churning out lots and lots and lots of proofed pages. now, you can be excused if you ask why that's a problem. after all, isn't the whole idea to proof o.c.r. on the pages? well, yes. which is why this is such a stupid ignorant idea. but nonetheless, because some people at d.p. cannot see past their convoluted ridiculous workflow, this "excess" of p1 proofed pages is considered to be a "problem" that needs to be "solved" so that their workflow can be saved. numerous methods have been enacted to try to _force_ the p1 proofers to "move up" to the later proofing rounds. none of these numerous methods seem to have "worked". at times, the effort seems to even be directed specifically at a handful of people in the "top 10 list" of p1 proofers. each of these people has proofed thousands and thousands of pages, which i consider as a very productive contribution, yet they're being portrayed in an extremely negative manner, as people who are causing problems for the site as a whole... now, i haven't looked at the list of p1 proofers to determine just who these "troublemakers" are, but it seems to me that a very nice "solution" has presented itself for this "problem". specifically, those "problem" p1 proofers should move over to rfrank's "roundless" system, where they'll be appreciated. in a roundless system, the faster a page moves to perfection -- and by all accounts, these "problem" p1 proofers provide _excellent_ proofing results -- the better the system works... moreover, instead of being "blamed" for a bad infrastructure, the roundless system will _laud_ these high-profile proofers. so there you go, my suggestion for d.p. for the day... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimad at msn.com Wed Jan 20 16:20:29 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:20:29 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Apple Tablet to debut next week In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703405704575015362653644260.ht ml or Google "Apple Sees New Money in Old Media" From desrod at gnu-designs.com Wed Jan 20 19:36:10 2010 From: desrod at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 22:36:10 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Apple Tablet to debut next week In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 7:20 PM, James Adcock wrote: > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703405704575015362653644260.ht > ml If it's sporting a color LCD, and not a monochromatic e-Ink display (or one of the color e-Ink displays), it's just going to be a smaller version of a keyboardless Macbook Air with ebooks available through iTunes. Nothing really revolutionary to see here, unless it out-does what the Nook, Que, Alex or similar devices are doing. Judging from what we've seen from Apple lately, I wouldn't put much faith in it changing the industry in any noticeable way. We'll have to wait and see... From bowerbird at aol.com Thu Jan 21 18:21:37 2010 From: bowerbird at aol.com (bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 21:21:37 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] on your planet Message-ID: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> david said: > it's just going to be a smaller version of > a keyboardless Macbook Air > with ebooks available through iTunes. man, wouldn't that be something, even all by itself! the very first thing i wanted to do when i lifted up a macbook air was to rip off that stupid keyboard. (but i didn't think the employees there in the apple store would fully appreciate my marvelous gesture.) > Nothing really revolutionary to see here, unless it > out-does what the Nook, Que, Alex or similar devices > are doing. Judging from what we've seen from Apple lately, > I wouldn't put much faith in it changing the industry hey dude, i don't know where you're from, but here on planet earth the ipod revolutionized how the masses listened to (and bought) music, and the iphone revolutionized so-called "smart" phones (which had been quite retarded before) and put the web (the _real_ web) in our pockets, which was the biggest revolution of all of these. and now they've set the table to do it all _again_, not just changing "the industry", but _the_world_. but again, this is here on planet earth, so please, mr. alien man, tell us what it's like on your planet. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hart at pglaf.org Thu Jan 21 18:27:17 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 18:27:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: on your planet In-Reply-To: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> Message-ID: Just one little correction/emendation: Apple's iPhone wasn't first to "put the web in our pocket." As I recall it is not that old. I have phones with browsers and wifi that are TWICE as old! On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > david said: > >?? it's just going to be a smaller version of > >?? a keyboardless Macbook Air > >?? with ebooks available through iTunes. > > man, wouldn't that be something, even all by itself! > > the very first thing i wanted to do when i lifted up > a macbook air was to rip off that stupid keyboard. > (but i didn't think the employees there in the apple > store would fully appreciate my marvelous gesture.) > > > >?? Nothing really revolutionary to see here, unless it > >?? out-does what the Nook, Que, Alex or similar devices > >?? are doing. Judging from what we've seen from Apple lately, > >?? I wouldn't put much faith in it changing the industry > > hey dude, i don't know where you're from, but > here on planet earth the ipod revolutionized > how the masses listened to (and bought) music, > and the iphone revolutionized so-called "smart" > phones (which had been quite retarded before) > and put the web (the _real_ web) in our pockets, > which was the biggest revolution of all of these. > > and now they've set the table to do it all _again_, > not just changing "the industry", but _the_world_. > > but again, this is here on planet earth, so please, > mr. alien man, tell us what it's like on your planet. > > -bowerbird > > From walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 22 01:23:38 2010 From: walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl (Walter van Holst) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:23:38 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: on your planet In-Reply-To: References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> Message-ID: <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> On 1/22/10 3:27 AM, Michael S. Hart wrote: > > Just one little correction/emendation: > > Apple's iPhone wasn't first to "put the web in our pocket." > > As I recall it is not that old. > > I have phones with browsers and wifi that are TWICE as old! Even a broken clock is right twice a day. The bird is right when he says that the iPhone put the the web in our pockets in the sense that it, just like the iPod before it, had almost next to nothing that was new in terms of technical capabalities, but through extremely clever packaging made those techincal capabilities interesting to the masses. Just like Microsoft put a computer on every desktop, but didn't invent hardly a thing in that era. Regards, Walter From hart at pglaf.org Fri Jan 22 02:54:14 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 02:54:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On my planet "Microsoft did" NOT "put a computer on every desktop." Or on any desktop, for that matter. Even though I switched from CP/M to DOS at a moment's notice. Just the same, "the iPhone" DID NOT "put the web in our pockets." Unless, of course, what you mean is on YOUR PLANET they made it a fad. While Apple gets too much credit for iPhones, which are, after all, only a VERY small percentage of all cellphones sold in their times, Apple also gets too little credit for bringing us the PC, period. So, perhaps on your planet this makes it all balance relatively. I prefer a balance just slightly closer to the facts. If you've been on this list long, you've seen my references to the Nokia Communicator 9000, as shown in the movie "The Saint" [1997], and therefore in existence when it was shot and set in 1996. . . . Such phones were commonplace in Europe a decade ago, I saw them. The US has always been way behind in cellphones, and still is, iPhones notwithstanding, cuteness notwithstanding. However, I will give you that fads have their place in progress, bringing things even more to the masses. After all, THIS IS THE YEAR OF THE eBOOK!!! ;-) Michael On Fri, 22 Jan 2010, Walter van Holst wrote: > On 1/22/10 3:27 AM, Michael S. Hart wrote: > > > > Just one little correction/emendation: > > > > Apple's iPhone wasn't first to "put the web in our pocket." > > > > As I recall it is not that old. > > > > I have phones with browsers and wifi that are TWICE as old! > > Even a broken clock is right twice a day. The bird is right when he says that > the iPhone put the the web in our pockets in the sense that it, just like the > iPod before it, had almost next to nothing that was new in terms of technical > capabalities, but through extremely clever packaging made those techincal > capabilities interesting to the masses. > > Just like Microsoft put a computer on every desktop, but didn't invent hardly > a thing in that era. > > Regards, > > Walter > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From bowerbird at aol.com Fri Jan 22 17:19:56 2010 From: bowerbird at aol.com (bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:19:56 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] let's do a book Message-ID: <19273.1f752a35.388ba8bc@aol.com> been a while since i digitized a book, so i decided to scrape the files from rfrank's roundless experiment and do them... here's the first pass: > http://z-m-l.com/go/frank/frankp123.html same as it ever was. the first pass was to put it in my format; the next pass will be to do preprocessing. i applaud the roundless experiment, but the fact still stands that if you do a good job of preprocessing (which takes an hour or so with a good tool), you can basically _post_the_book_ for smoothreading, or p1, or p2, or p3, or whatever you wanna call a finish pass. the d.p. workflow is archaic and stupid. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pterandon at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 05:10:15 2010 From: pterandon at gmail.com (Greg M. Johnson) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 08:10:15 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Taste & ethics with old e-books at Kindle Message-ID: Using an Ipod Touch, I downloaded some public domain books from the Kindle application. I was officially charged a transaction fee of "$0.00" for each one. 1) The Kindle version of the book, "Tom Swift and his Submarine" appears to have been hit by the TXT-80 virus. The lines of text wrap around in an illegible fashion just as they do with the TXT-80 format ones from PG. Fascinatingly, I just downloaded the epub format directly from PG, and it looks great! 2) I also took time to examine an ebook I'd downloaded **months ago* called, "Tales of the Fish Patrol". Knowing Chinese people and being a fan of the sea, I was really into the book by the end of Chapter One. Then I was hit with: ____________ End of this sample Kindle book. Enjoyed the sample Buy now or See details for this book in the Kindle Store ____________ The violations of taste of this project hit me like a brick. If Amazon were to have charged me $0.10 for the cost of bandwidth, I would not have blinked. But to take a public domain book, and set it up as something you're supposed to pay to see the second half, and not making it exhaustively clear to the downloader what you are getting, is major uncool. After you've got through the teaser, they provide a link telling you they want $0.85 for the full version. BUT WAIT-- The free prelude to this ebook that I had on my Kindle, AFAICS, isn't on Amazon anymore! It doesn't show up in the first 25 listings. A new attempt to download "Tales of the Fish Patrol" has all the chapters. So, the system worked! Either the marketplace or the Amazon administrators appear to have taken action to make this work less prominent. So, the "true" ebook has an *ASIN:* B000JQV2WU. The $0.85 target you're supposed to buy has an *ASIN:* B002N0V0XG and is by * Publisher:* Bunny Books, Ink. (August 26, 2009) Any insights here? -- Greg M. Johnson http://pterandon.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcello at perathoner.de Sun Jan 24 10:14:06 2010 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 19:14:06 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Taste & ethics with old e-books at Kindle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5C8DEE.4030706@perathoner.de> Greg M. Johnson wrote: > 2) I also took time to examine an ebook I'd downloaded **months ago* called, > "Tales of the Fish Patrol". Knowing Chinese people and being a fan of the sea, > I was really into the book by the end of Chapter One. Then I was hit with: > > ____________ > End of this sample Kindle book. > Enjoyed the sample > Buy now or > See details for this book in the Kindle Store > ____________ > > The violations of taste of this project hit me like a brick. If Amazon were to > have charged me $0.10 for the cost of bandwidth, I would not have blinked. But > to take a public domain book, and set it up as something you're supposed to pay > to see the second half, and not making it exhaustively clear to the downloader > what you are getting, is major uncool. After you've got through the teaser, > they provide a link telling you they want $0.85 for the full version. > [...] > > So, the "true" ebook has an *ASIN:* B000JQV2WU. > The $0.85 target you're supposed to buy has an *ASIN:* B002N0V0XG and is by * > Publisher:* Bunny Books, Ink. (August 26, 2009) > > Any insights here? For free as in speech versions of Fish Patrol see PG #911 and #28693. Lots of people have tried and are trying to cash in on the work of PG volunteers and the ignorance of people: One popular business model is to rip PG editions and offer them on Amazon as paper or electronic edition for a substantial fee. Some of these `publishers? go to the effort of reformatting the PG edition, others do not. Another popular business model is to build a search engine front around the PG and other collections and then charge $8.95 a year for access to what is free elsewhere. Ironically the PG license requires republishers to remove all references to PG if they don't want to pay a fee. Thus the PG license helps with keeping people ignorant of PG. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From schultzk at uni-trier.de Sun Jan 24 10:41:21 2010 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Keith J. Schultz) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 19:41:21 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Sorry for stepping in so late! Am 22.01.2010 um 11:54 schrieb Michael S. Hart: > > On my planet "Microsoft did" NOT "put a computer on every desktop." Not even on earth! Apple, IBM, Commodore, and Atari started. MS had a sort of monopoly far as OSes went so it is now the most widely distributed one. > Or on any desktop, for that matter. > > Even though I switched from CP/M to DOS at a moment's notice. > > Just the same, "the iPhone" DID NOT "put the web in our pockets." Nope sure did not. Had a phone tat could use the internet for years before the iPhone came out but could/would not afford the connection prices. The iPhone was the first requiring internet and sold exclusively with a data rate. > > Unless, of course, what you mean is on YOUR PLANET they made it a fad. > > While Apple gets too much credit for iPhones, which are, after all, > only a VERY small percentage of all cellphones sold in their times, > Apple also gets too little credit for bringing us the PC, period. True, but with one of the highest ratings for internet usage as compared to other makers!! The iPhone GUI is what is making the difference and ease of use. > > So, perhaps on your planet this makes it all balance relatively. > > I prefer a balance just slightly closer to the facts. > > If you've been on this list long, you've seen my references to the > Nokia Communicator 9000, as shown in the movie "The Saint" [1997], > and therefore in existence when it was shot and set in 1996. . . . > > Such phones were commonplace in Europe a decade ago, I saw them. Like I said had one. > > The US has always been way behind in cellphones, and still is, > iPhones notwithstanding, cuteness notwithstanding. I would not say that. But, the hype around the iPhone got the common people to spend big bucks for such phones. regards Keith From gbnewby at pglaf.org Sun Jan 24 12:05:41 2010 From: gbnewby at pglaf.org (Greg Newby) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 12:05:41 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Formats and gripes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100124200541.GH27785@pglaf.org> On Sat, Dec 05, 2009 at 12:01:47PM -0500, Greg M. Johnson wrote: > I observed a bunch of things in the PG collection that were somewhere > between maddening deficiencies in quality and simply how I wouldn't have > done things. I could have made inflammatory demands that the whole system be > rewrought according to my word. Instead I came up with my own custom DVD. > And I'll testify that MH in discussing the idea was annoyingly > non-paternalistic in not telling me how it had to be. ;) And encouraging you to "just do it!" :) > So, when someone complains, it is great when they can just go fix something > themselves. There's the story of the king who demanded the whole world be > covered in soft leather to keep his foot from being struck on a stone. Maybe > someone should come up with a custom DVD with all the good works in EPUB > format. Doable, I think. The XML/RDF catalog does include EPUB links, though they are not part of the static collection. > I would respect PG if it were to refuse to host any and all of these > bleeding edge formats. But we do host them...it's just that we're generating them on demand, which has numerous practical benefits for the producers, and is close to transparent for the human readers. > But I would love to be given the authority to create > a raw text format without the 80-char line breaks. Everyone can do that. Reformatting is permitted, as part of the license. http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg:Permission_How-To > I agree that having these > breaks (in the only TXT format available ) makes them unusable. The > first-time visitor to PG probably won't be impressed that tools may be > available to fix it. That's why we provide MOBI, EPUB and other formats on demand. That way, the readers just need to click the chosen link. 80-character lines are only one of the choices. -- Greg From walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl Sun Jan 24 13:09:46 2010 From: walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl (Walter van Holst) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:09:46 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> On 1/24/10 7:41 PM, Keith J. Schultz wrote: > Sorry for stepping in so late! You're both missing the point by a whole galaxy. The point is which product actually became widely accepted. I know that Xerox invented the PC (even with a GUI, to boot). I know that there were cell phones with internet capabilities around before the iPhone (I'm in Europe and have been in the telecoms industry). The point is which product enabled or caused the masses to use desktop computing or mobile internet. Not which product was 'first'. Regards, Walter From schultzk at uni-trier.de Sun Jan 24 16:04:13 2010 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Keith J. Schultz) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 01:04:13 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Hi Walter, If you would have read carefully, you would have understood that I agreed with you. MS aka Winows was in the more or less forced upon the Wintel machines. Not to say that better OSes were not out there, but you had to pay extra for them and things were highly incompatible in the beginning. But that is another story and does not belong here. Like I mentioned the iPhone made things easier and in a sense affordable. As far as the PC goes it was either Apple or IBM! Can not remember which can out first. But IBM was responsible for coining PC. But to get On Topic : Would you say is responsible for e-books? My vote goes to PG, because with out it the books available for all those fancy readers would be minimal. regards Keith Am 24.01.2010 um 22:09 schrieb Walter van Holst: > On 1/24/10 7:41 PM, Keith J. Schultz wrote: >> Sorry for stepping in so late! > > You're both missing the point by a whole galaxy. The point is which product actually became widely accepted. I know that Xerox invented the PC (even with a GUI, to boot). I know that there were cell phones with internet capabilities around before the iPhone (I'm in Europe and have been in the telecoms industry). The point is which product enabled or caused the masses to use desktop computing or mobile internet. Not which product was 'first'. > > Regards, > > Walter > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d From ajhaines at shaw.ca Sun Jan 24 20:56:31 2010 From: ajhaines at shaw.ca (Al Haines (shaw)) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 20:56:31 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Transferring PG files from PC to iPod Message-ID: <0E124B4276624E3F9584AAC106DF35DB@alp2400> A request arrived at PG Errata system for help/advice on transferring PG's book files from PC to iPod. Here's the body of the message: I am having trouble downloading certain books to my itunes though others work fine. The ones I'm having trouble with download directly to my computer and I have not figured out how to move them to my ipod. Is this an error or my stupidity. I love gutenberg and was thrilled to find it but am now frustrated with certain author choices. A Google search on "transferring files from pc to ipod" finds all kinds of utilities purporting to do such transfers--any recommendations that I can pass to the requestor? Al From hart at pglaf.org Sun Jan 24 21:00:01 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:00:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: You seem to be missing the point as well. iPhones don't account for but a few percent of all cellphones, or even all web cellphones, or even all web/wifi/cellphones. As I said, I have one much older, and I never turned it on as a phone, I just used the wifi. . . . On Sun, 24 Jan 2010, Walter van Holst wrote: > On 1/24/10 7:41 PM, Keith J. Schultz wrote: > > Sorry for stepping in so late! > > You're both missing the point by a whole galaxy. The point is which product > actually became widely accepted. I know that Xerox invented the PC (even with > a GUI, to boot). I know that there were cell phones with internet capabilities > around before the iPhone (I'm in Europe and have been in the telecoms > industry). The point is which product enabled or caused the masses to use > desktop computing or mobile internet. Not which product was 'first'. > > Regards, > > Walter > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From marcello at perathoner.de Sun Jan 24 23:17:58 2010 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 08:17:58 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4B5D45A6.4030707@perathoner.de> Walter van Holst wrote: > On 1/24/10 7:41 PM, Keith J. Schultz wrote: >> Sorry for stepping in so late! > > You're both missing the point by a whole galaxy. The point is which > product actually became widely accepted. I know that Xerox invented the > PC (even with a GUI, to boot). I know that there were cell phones with > internet capabilities around before the iPhone (I'm in Europe and have > been in the telecoms industry). The point is which product enabled or > caused the masses to use desktop computing or mobile internet. Not which > product was 'first'. Where I do business I never see an iPhone laying around. I see Blackberries and Nokias and Sonys. I see iPhones only in discos and caf?s, where they read GQ Magazine and Playboy. The point is that our media need heroes, and when a whole company comes around with the bruce willis attitude, they jump to it. Its easier to copy a sensational press release than to research dozens of models and technologies and plans. The iPhone is late, technically inferior, overpriced and locked into its vendor. The only thing Apple does well is marketing, but thats also the only feature that works against me, making me pay more. You have been conned into thinking the iPhone is something special. That's all. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From schultzk at uni-trier.de Mon Jan 25 09:37:05 2010 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Keith J. Schultz) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:37:05 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <4B5D45A6.4030707@perathoner.de> References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> <4B5D45A6.4030707@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <66A02F53-EAF9-4CEE-B67B-24FE4445DBE7@uni-trier.de> Am 25.01.2010 um 08:17 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: Overpriced Nahhh, Locked into its vendor: Maybein the states!! Here in Europe you can get non sim locked ones. regards Keith > > The iPhone is late, technically inferior, overpriced and locked into its vendor. The only thing Apple does well is marketing, but thats also the only feature that works against me, making me pay more. > > You have been conned into thinking the iPhone is something special. That's all. > > > -- > Marcello Perathoner > webmaster at gutenberg.org > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d From marcello at perathoner.de Mon Jan 25 09:43:22 2010 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:43:22 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <66A02F53-EAF9-4CEE-B67B-24FE4445DBE7@uni-trier.de> References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> <4B5D45A6.4030707@perathoner.de> <66A02F53-EAF9-4CEE-B67B-24FE4445DBE7@uni-trier.de> Message-ID: <4B5DD83A.2010203@perathoner.de> Keith J. Schultz wrote: > Am 25.01.2010 um 08:17 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: > > Overpriced Nahhh, Locked into its vendor: Maybein the states!! > Here in Europe you can get non sim locked ones. Where? -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Jan 25 10:02:26 2010 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:02:26 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets Message-ID: <13ab0.7094017.388f36b2@aol.com> oh geez. i wrote a reply on this thread, but didn't send it, because i was hoping the thread would just die on its own. but evidently not... *** michael said: > You seem to be missing the point as well. well, there seem to be several "points" floating around. one is that _some_ phones could access the web _before_ the iphone came along. technically, that's true, if only for those technically-inclined who opted to subject themselves to the torture of tremendously inelegant, clumsy interfaces. then the iphone came along, for the rest of us, and now literally tens of millions of normal people access the web by using their iphones without dread, or even any angst, and they access the same web they get on their computers, not some hobbled "mobile" version with plain-text menus reminiscent of the 1970s. > iPhones don't account for but a few percent of all cellphones, > or even all web cellphones, or even all web/wifi/cellphones. and yet iphone users account for as much as 80% of the usage on the at&t network, enough to drive it to its knees some places. why? because steve made a web-browsing phone for the masses... which was _not_ a trivial undertaking. it's a massive achievement, one that the old guard in phones were totally incapable of doing. > As I said, I have one much older, > and I never turned it on as a phone, I just used the wifi. . . . you're not a typical user, michael. which is why i love you so... :+) *** marcello said: > The iPhone is late, technically inferior, overpriced > and locked into its vendor. it figures that marcello would say something so stupid, which is why he's in my spam folder. now if only keith stops quoting him. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 25 10:38:17 2010 From: walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl (Walter van Holst) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:38:17 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <4B5DD83A.2010203@perathoner.de> References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> <4B5D45A6.4030707@perathoner.de> <66A02F53-EAF9-4CEE-B67B-24FE4445DBE7@uni-trier.de> <4B5DD83A.2010203@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <4D69FE25-C90F-42B1-9F48-91E0138DDAAD@xs4all.nl> On 25 jan 2010, at 18:43, Marcello Perathoner wrote: >> >> Here in Europe you can get non sim locked ones. > > Where? Belgium doesn't like the sale of mobiles that are exclusively available as SIM-locked. Regards, Walter From joey at joeysmith.com Mon Jan 25 11:02:03 2010 From: joey at joeysmith.com (Joey Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 12:02:03 -0700 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Transferring PG files from PC to iPod In-Reply-To: <0E124B4276624E3F9584AAC106DF35DB@alp2400> References: <0E124B4276624E3F9584AAC106DF35DB@alp2400> Message-ID: <4B5DEAAB.8030606@joeysmith.com> On 1/24/2010 9:56 PM, Al Haines (shaw) wrote: > A request arrived at PG Errata system for help/advice on transferring > PG's book files from PC to iPod. Here's the body of the message: > > > I am having trouble downloading certain books to my itunes though > others work fine. The ones I'm having trouble with download directly > to my computer and I have not figured out how to move them to my ipod. > Is this an error or my stupidity. I love gutenberg and was thrilled to > find it but am now frustrated with certain author choices. > > > A Google search on "transferring files from pc to ipod" finds all > kinds of utilities purporting to do such transfers--any > recommendations that I can pass to the requestor? > > Al I'm not much of a user of Apple's products, but my wife uses an application called "Stanza" to share ebooks between our desktop and her iPhone, and she seems quite enamoured with it. From jimad at msn.com Mon Jan 25 11:06:58 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:06:58 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: on your planet In-Reply-To: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> Message-ID: david said: > it's just going to be a smaller version of > a keyboardless Macbook Air > with ebooks available through iTunes. The main issues I can see here are: 1) People are split whether or not they can tolerate reading on LCD display or whether they require e-Ink type of technology. 2) People are split on whether or not they like touch-screen vs. dislike the reduction in display quality that touch-screens entail. 3) How big vs. how little you want your reading device to be. 4) What file formats and/or DRM and/or other transfer and download restrictions a particular e-book reader entails. 5) real keyboards vs. virtual keyboards. 6) how "general purpose computer " vs. "dedicated reader" a device is. 7) cost. For reference Kindle "owns" about 2/3rds of the dedicated e-book reader market right now. Apple might be able to shake this up. IMHO competition is good in that hopefully it forces vendors to acknowledge and remove the most egregious DRM or other restrictions -- hopefully similar to what we have seen in the music market. We need devices and vendors that better recognize existing traditions of book "fair use" by readers while allowing contemporary authors a fair copyright return on their artistic efforts. From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Jan 25 12:15:50 2010 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:15:50 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: on your planet Message-ID: <18993.2ae04737.388f55f6@aol.com> jim said: > The main issues I can see here are: > > 1) People are split whether or not they can tolerate reading > on LCD display or whether they require e-Ink type of technology. > > 2) People are split on whether or not they like touch-screen > vs. dislike the reduction in display quality that touch-screens entail. > > 3) How big vs. how little you want your reading device to be. > > 4) What file formats and/or DRM and/or other transfer and > download restrictions a particular e-book reader entails. > > 5) real keyboards vs. virtual keyboards. > > 6) how "general purpose computer " vs. "dedicated reader" a device is. > > 7) cost. those are pretty much all personal preferences, and therefore not worth discussing. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hart at pglaf.org Mon Jan 25 13:03:12 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:03:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <13ab0.7094017.388f36b2@aol.com> References: <13ab0.7094017.388f36b2@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 2010, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > oh geez.? i wrote a reply on this thread, but didn't send it, > because i was hoping the thread would just die on its own. > > but evidently not... > > *** > > michael said: > >?? You seem to be missing the point as well. > > well, there seem to be several "points" floating around. > > one is that _some_ phones could access the web _before_ > the iphone came along.? technically, that's true, if only for > those technically-inclined who opted to subject themselves > to the torture of tremendously inelegant, clumsy interfaces. Hey, watch there with your "tremendously inelegant, clumsy interfaces" that "torture" you to use them. . . . Yes, there are some browsers on phone that are ugly. However, if you did your homework on them, even five years ago, you could get one that worked pretty much like whatever you had on your other devices. I did. And it was a common garden variety model, though admittedly expensive to buy new, so I got a used one, of course. > then the iphone came along, for the rest of us, and now > literally tens of millions of normal people access the web > by using their iphones without dread, or even any angst, > and they access the same web they get on their computers, > not some hobbled "mobile" version with plain-text menus > reminiscent of the 1970s. I have yet to see such menus that didn't just point/click just like the others. > > > >?? iPhones don't account for but a few percent of all cellphones, > >?? or even all web cellphones, or even all web/wifi/cellphones. > > and yet iphone users account for as much as 80% of the usage > on the at&t network, enough to drive it to its knees some places. > > why? Duh? Because Apple INSISTED you buy into THEIR network. . .!!! > because steve made a web-browsing phone for the masses... > which was _not_ a trivial undertaking.? it's a massive achievement, > one that the old guard in phones were totally incapable of doing. I certainly don't know ALL the functions of my phones, or of the iPhone. . .but as far as surfing the Internet and downloading/reading PG eBooks, it was all just fine, except that .zip worked best for downloading and space. > >?? As I said, I have one much older, > >?? and I never turned it on as a phone, I just used the wifi. . . . > > you're not a typical user, michael.? which is why i love you so...???? :+) Not like a million other people didn't buy the same phone! > > *** > > marcello said: > >?? The iPhone is late, technically inferior, overpriced > >?? and locked into its vendor. > > it figures that marcello would say something so stupid, which is > why he's in my spam folder.? now if only keith stops quoting him. Actually, Mr. Bird, if you go to Europe, you might be surprised at the phones they have, and the prices, and the price to operate. > -bowerbird > > From Bowerbird at aol.com Mon Jan 25 16:20:35 2010 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:20:35 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets Message-ID: <221f4.57a73ca2.388f8f53@aol.com> michael said: > there are some browsers on phone that are ugly. > However, if you did your homework on them, > even five years ago, you could get > one that worked pretty much like > whatever you had on your other devices. i "did my homework". the so-called "web-browser" on these "smart" phones was a steaming pile of crap. moreover, the data plans offered were just _traps_ designed to snag you into a _staggering_ phone-bill. which is why nobody actually _used_ these "browsers", not for any kind of persistent day-to-day web usage... > I did.? And it was a common garden variety model, > though admittedly expensive to buy new, > so I got a used one, of course. at a bargain price, i am sure, because the older owner realized the game that the phone-company was playing, and decided to opt out of the tar-baby. and you sidestepped the tar-pit by not using it as a phone, per se, so you weren't saddled with the monthly cost. smart. but definitely not typical. > I have yet to see such menus that > didn't just point/click just like the others. i'm not sure what you're saying here. if you want to see some of the sites i was talking about, i can dig 'em up for you. i guarantee they look primitive. and they had no graphics at all. not the web we all know. > Duh? > Because Apple INSISTED you buy into THEIR network. . .!!! um, that's because none of the other carriers would let steve put their phone on their networks, probably because they knew that -- with a real web-browser -- people would use a lot of bandwidth, and they weren't willing to provide it at the time, especially not at the flat rate that steve demanded. of course, in hindsight, they were stupid, because they could have buried at&t, but instead they let a 3rd-place contender remain alive. > I certainly don't know ALL the functions of my phones, > or of the iPhone. . .but as far as surfing the Internet > and downloading/reading PG eBooks, it was all just fine, > except that .zip worked best for downloading and space. i'm perfectly willing to believe you're happy with your phone. i'm perfectly willing to believe most iphone owners are happy with their phone too, and wouldn't trade it for any other phone. i'm happy with my iphone, and wouldn't trade it for any other, but i didn't buy the 3gs when it came out last summer because i didn't want to re-up for another 2-year contract, because i was hoping that by this summer at&t would lose exclusivity, and i want to ditch them. and it looks like i'm gonna get that. i'm perfectly willing to stay off the bleeding edge if it cuts me. > Not like a million other people didn't buy the same phone! except that a million people doesn't make a revolution today. but the 60-80 million iphone/ipodtouch owners certainly do, as do the 8.75 million people who bought an iphone last quarter. you can't ignore numbers like that. none of the big boys are pooh-poohing the iphone any more. they're playing catch-up. > Actually, Mr. Bird, if you go to Europe, you might be surprised at > the phones they have, and the prices, and the price to operate. i have a very good handle on what's happening around the world. and the iphone is neither "late", nor "technologically inferior"... (although the u.s.a. as a whole is dragging its feet quite badly.) -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hart at pglaf.org Mon Jan 25 23:30:43 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 23:30:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <221f4.57a73ca2.388f8f53@aol.com> References: <221f4.57a73ca2.388f8f53@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 2010, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > michael said: > >?? there are some browsers on phone that are ugly. > >?? However, if you did your homework on them, > >?? even five years ago, you could get > >?? one that worked pretty much like > >?? whatever you had on your other devices. > > i "did my homework".? the so-called "web-browser" > on these "smart" phones was a steaming pile of crap. Sometimes they are, and I freely admit it. However, if you buy one like that AFTER doing homework, that's between you and your psyschiatrist. In addition, the last time I saw one of the "steamers," we just downloaded the browser we wanted. Yes, there are multiple browsers, even for cellphones. Don't forget I said don't get one without wifi. > moreover, the data plans offered were just _traps_ > designed to snag you into a _staggering_ phone-bill. The phone in question here has an unlimited data plan for some $35 a month, seems reasonable to me. Then again, I'm not sure that plan is still available, other than grandfathered in. > which is why nobody actually _used_ these "browsers", > not for any kind of persistent day-to-day web usage... Only the millions you left out of your research samples. > >?? I did.? And it was a common garden variety model, > >?? though admittedly expensive to buy new, > >?? so I got a used one, of course. > > at a bargain price, i am sure, because the older owner > realized the game that the phone-company was playing, > and decided to opt out of the tar-baby. Don't you ever listen??? I've said for ages, "Don't buy a cellphone without wifi!" > and you sidestepped the tar-pit by not using it as a phone, > per se, so you weren't saddled with the monthly cost.? smart. > but definitely not typical. Still, even as a phone, if you use wifi for data, no charges. Wake up!!! > >?? I have yet to see such menus that > >?? didn't just point/click just like the others. > > i'm not sure what you're saying here. I guess you'll just have to do more research. It doesn't get much simpler than point and click, and I can't describe it better than you learning it with a real phone in front of you. Go play with em. > if you want to see some of the sites i was talking about, > i can dig 'em up for you.? i guarantee they look primitive. > and they had no graphics at all.? not the web we all know. Sites? Were we talking about sites? I thot we were talking about phones! > >?? Duh? > >?? Because Apple INSISTED you buy into THEIR network. . .!!! > > um, that's because none of the other carriers would > let steve put their phone on their networks, probably > because they knew that -- with a real web-browser -- > people would use a lot of bandwidth, and they weren't > willing to provide it at the time, especially not at the > flat rate that steve demanded.? of course, in hindsight, > they were stupid, because they could have buried at&t, > but instead they let a 3rd-place contender remain alive. An interesting POV. I'm not sure it's got any factual backing, but interesting. What about AT&T? Or are you counting them? > >?? I certainly don't know ALL the functions of my phones, > >?? or of the iPhone. . .but as far as surfing the Internet > >?? and downloading/reading PG eBooks, it was all just fine, > >?? except that .zip worked best for downloading and space. > > i'm perfectly willing to believe you're happy with your phone. > > i'm perfectly willing to believe most iphone owners are happy > with their phone too, and wouldn't trade it for any other phone. Actually, all The Billionaire Boys Club are betting against you. As you may recall, I starting predicting years and years ago, when cellphones first reached 50% saturations levels, that the new wave of cellphones would be more wild new features. . . . Why? Because the new market is already prety well saturated! Remember "The Dot Com Bust". . .same tipping point, but now a little more experience. > i'm happy with my iphone, and wouldn't trade it for any other, > but i didn't buy the 3gs when it came out last summer because > i didn't want to re-up for another 2-year contract, because i > was hoping that by this summer at&t would lose exclusivity, > and i want to ditch them.? and it looks like i'm gonna get that. > i'm perfectly willing to stay off the bleeding edge if it cuts me. So who else is going to be allowed to provide for iPhones??? > except that a million people doesn't make a revolution today. Didn't I use the plural? > but the 60-80 million iphone/ipodtouch owners certainly do, > as do the 8.75 million people who bought an iphone last quarter. Are iPhones up to 5% of cellphones yet? I think not [and vanished in a puff of greasy black smoke!] Actually, I would be surprised if even much over half that! > you can't ignore numbers like that.? none of the big boys are > pooh-poohing the iphone any more.? they're playing catch-up. It's cute. . .no one says not. It's just not even 5% of the market, maybe half that. . . . Seems to be following the Mac statistics. Now iPods, that a different thing. . .heaven knows why, since there are SO many MP3 players working so well. > >?? Actually, Mr. Bird, if you go to Europe, you might be surprised at > >?? the phones they have, and the prices, and the price to operate. > > i have a very good handle on what's happening around the world. > and the iphone is neither "late", nor "technologically inferior"... > (although the u.s.a. as a whole is dragging its feet quite badly.) You just haven't see all the Euro-phones on the streets. . . . > > -bowerbird > > From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Jan 26 00:40:53 2010 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 03:40:53 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets Message-ID: <275.29f5d5c3.38900495@aol.com> oh well, might as well continue this little thread... i hope everyone realizes that michael and i don't really disagree as much as all this rhetoric seems. *** michael said: > However, if you buy one like that AFTER doing homework, > that's between you and your psychiatrist. i never bought one of the steaming pile of crap phones... not to do web-browsing, anyway. i just went without web. > Don't forget I said don't get one without wifi. how could i forget it when you repeat it so frequently? :+) but, as i said, i just went without the web on my phone. and so did tens of millions of other people. my point... > The phone in question here has an unlimited data plan > for some $35 a month, seems reasonable to me. > Then again, I'm not sure that plan is still available, > other than grandfathered in. well, your ability to sniff out bargains is well-documented. but others of us are not blessed with that particular gift... (i was kissed by the queen angel of parking spaces myself.) > Only the millions you left out of your research samples. i granted you _one_ million, and even that was stretching it. > Don't you ever listen??? > I've said for ages, "Don't buy a cellphone without wifi!" even if i only listened 10% of the time (and i listen a lot more), i would have heard you say that, since you've said it for ages... > Still, even as a phone, if you use wifi for data, no charges. the experience wasn't worth it! even if the bandwidth was free! > Wake up!!! i'm as awake as i'm gonna be at this time of night... :+) > Sites? > Were we talking about sites? > I thot we were talking about phones! oh, ok, i see where we had our disconnect. i was talking about "cell-phone optimized websites", yes, since for many phones, that was the only way they could adequately access the web, via sites that had been dumbed down to the point where they were simple text-menus only. those dumbed-down sites were light on bandwidth and didn't need any processing power. of course, they weren't the "real" web, but they were the best those phones could do. let me ask a question. for your current phone, the one you are talking about with the $35/month unlimited data plan, and wifi, can you access the front page of the n.y. times site? do you see all of the pictures? can you click on all the links? and if you can, how long does it take that front page to load? can you get wikipedia? or are you shunted to an "alternative" version which has been dumbed-down for cell-phone access? > An interesting POV. > I'm not sure it's got any factual backing, but interesting. > What about AT&T?? Or are you counting them? it's not a "p.o.v.". it's how the history went down, michael. steve wanted verizon, because they were acknowledged as "best". but verizon turned him down flat, flat as a pancake. then he tried sprint, but they wouldn't give him a deal either. so at&t was his only other option. they were so desperate, for any business, that they basically couldn't turn him down. of course, all of us users have been totally dissatisfied with at&t, because they haven't been able to get their act together, despite the huge influx of business (and respect) from iphone. steve hung with them for quite a while, longer than he should, but the word on the street is that their exclusivity is now gone. > Actually, all The Billionaire Boys Club are betting against you. > As you may recall, I starting predicting years and years ago, > when cellphones first reached 50% saturation levels, that the > new wave of cellphones would be more wild new features. . . . i'm still waiting. but i'm afraid that day is still off in the future. these carrier companies are so used to having captive "customers" that they don't really even _know_ how to engage in competition, and they all understand that as long as their collusion remains impossible to prove directly, they can milk all of their cash cows. for years and years, they played the "minutes" game with us, and even now, they think it's a big deal to knock $30 off their $99 plan for unlimited _voice_ for a month. but that's still a whopping $69. > So who else is going to be allowed to provide for iPhones??? the rumor-mill says verizon will get the iphone in addition to at&t. i'm guessing half (or more) of the people who have suffered through the at&t exclusivity period will switch to verizon as soon as they can. > Didn't I use the plural? no, you said "million", for that phone you own. > Are iPhones up to 5% of cellphones yet? > I think not [and vanished in a puff of greasy black smoke!] > Actually, I would be surprised if even much over half that! another big disconnect between us here... because certainly the percentage of _cellphones_ doesn't matter, not if we're throwing dumb-phones into the mix. i'm sure we'll get the updated figures during apple's press conference wednesday, but i think the iphone has about 40% of the smart-phone market today in the countries where it has been available for a while... even more important, the trend-lines show that it's still surging, while all the other smart-phones are holding steady or dropping. but the really startling statistic is that 80% of smart-phone bandwidth is being generated by iphone users, meaning they use their phones to navigate the web _twice_ as much as owners of other smart-phones... > It's cute. . .no one says not. oh please. spare yourself the indignity of backhanded "compliments". the iphone is a lot more than "cute". it has revolutionized the future. > It's just not even 5% of the market, maybe half that. . . . only if you define "market" in a completely nonsensical way. the iphone isn't competing against giveaway dumb-phones. > Seems to be following the Mac statistics. maybe you need to brush up on those statistics as well. mac has 90% of the market for machines costing $1000+. the only people buying p.c. hardware these days are the people who have very little use for a _real_ computer... they just want to check their e-mail and surf the web, and maybe watch t.v. or a movie... and guess what? that's exactly what apple's itablet is gonna let them do. (jobs owns pixar, of course, and is the biggest shareholder in disney, so that's the movie angle. but disney also owns a.b.c., so jobs has a direct interest in the future of t.v. too, and that's why movie/t.v. will be the big thrust of the itablet. in addition to bridging the gap between iphone and mac air.) > Now iPods, that a different thing. . .heaven knows why, > since there are SO many MP3 players working so well. "heaven knows why"? you really think it's a big mystery? it's no mystery at all. but i explained all of that in my _original_reply_ to walter, which i will send tomorrow. in a nutshell here now, though, what is interesting is how apple cannibalized its own ipod line with the touch, which is essentially the iphone without the phone part (so it boils down to the same form-factor as your phone, michael, with wifi access but with no phone capability.) that ipod touch -- with its dependence on wifi -- broke free from the tyranny of the 2-year carrier-contract, and basically puts the web in your pocket without access costs. now i would've thought this would be a non-starter, since i'm not willing to carry around a touch _and_ a phone, but lots of people apparently _are_ willing to do exactly that, and apple hooked in those people, and that's pretty cool. > You just haven't see all the Euro-phones on the streets. . . . it's not hard for me to imagine a world where _everyone_ is carrying around the web in their pocket all of the time... i've had that idea for about 30 years now, which i concede doesn't match the 50 years that you've got under your belt, but i think it's still a long-enough time to nurture a dream. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schultzk at uni-trier.de Tue Jan 26 02:28:31 2010 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Keith J. Schultz) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:28:31 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <4B5DD83A.2010203@perathoner.de> References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> <4B5D45A6.4030707@perathoner.de> <66A02F53-EAF9-4CEE-B67B-24FE4445DBE7@uni-trier.de> <4B5DD83A.2010203@perathoner.de> Message-ID: The apple store in Hamburg! Am 25.01.2010 um 18:43 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: > Keith J. Schultz wrote: >> Am 25.01.2010 um 08:17 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: >> Overpriced Nahhh, Locked into its vendor: Maybein the states!! >> Here in Europe you can get non sim locked ones. > > Where? > > > -- > Marcello Perathoner > webmaster at gutenberg.org > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d From hart at pglaf.org Tue Jan 26 03:04:18 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 03:04:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <275.29f5d5c3.38900495@aol.com> References: <275.29f5d5c3.38900495@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > oh well, might as well continue this little thread... > i hope everyone realizes that michael and i don't > really disagree as much as all this rhetoric seems. > > *** > > michael said: > >?? However, if you buy one like that AFTER doing homework, > >?? that's between you and your psychiatrist. > > i never bought one of the steaming pile of crap phones... > not to do web-browsing, anyway.? i just went without web. Then don't complain as if you had one and it was terrible. Test resonsibly, buy responsibly, and then report responsibly. Are you talking about phones you don't really have access to? > >?? Don't forget I said don't get one without wifi. > > how could i forget it when you repeat it so frequently??????? :+) Then don't bring up the high bills as if it were a very necessary factor. . .I have yet to see a phone in which the wifi adds to your charges, so what is your point??? > but, as i said, i just went without the web on my phone. > and so did tens of millions of other people.? my point... No, you haven't really made any points HERE that take a previous recommendation into account. Please, respond as if you have actually READ the notes. > >?? The phone in question here has an unlimited data plan > >?? for some $35 a month, seems reasonable to me. > >?? Then again, I'm not sure that plan is still available, > >?? other than grandfathered in. > > well, your ability to sniff out bargains is well-documented. Actually, this was one of our other Geek Lunchers. . .not I. > but others of us are not blessed with that particular gift... > (i was kissed by the queen angel of parking spaces myself.) Then just do a little more homework, and/or share homeworks with others, and then millions can take equal advantage. > >?? Only the millions you left out of your research samples. > > i granted you _one_ million, and even that was stretching it. You seem to be missing that the numbers of cellphones sold per year are really on the order of BILLION not of a million. 4.5 BILLION cellphone out there. How many iPhones? 1% would be 45 million. . .but that's not what anyone claims. There just aren't that many iPhones out there. . . . Percentagewise. > >?? Don't you ever listen??? > >?? I've said for ages, "Don't buy a cellphone without wifi!" > > even if i only listened 10% of the time (and i listen a lot more), > i would have heard you say that, since you've said it for ages... Then please act like it and stop complaining about Internet bills on cellphones when there are plenty of alternatives. > >?? Still, even as a phone, if you use wifi for data, no charges. > > the experience wasn't worth it!? even if the bandwidth was free! That's NOT what you said, you complained of the high billing!!! > >?? Wake up!!! > > i'm as awake as i'm gonna be at this time of night...????? :+) Listen, if you are going to engage me in conversation, at least hold up your end, eh? > >?? Sites? > >?? Were we talking about sites? > >?? I thot we were talking about phones! > > oh, ok, i see where we had our disconnect. > > i was talking about "cell-phone optimized websites", yes, > since for many phones, that was the only way they could > adequately access the web, via sites that had been dumbed > down to the point where they were simple text-menus only. I trust you are not actually working with many m.domain.dom kinds of sites. Should I presume you haven't tried any of the m.google.com sites or their competitions or imitators in site styles??? > those dumbed-down sites were light on bandwidth and > didn't need any processing power.? of course, they weren't > the "real" web, but they were the best those phones could do. Sorry, I haven't actually TRIED a browser that wouldn't do the "real" web, even though some did it SOOO poorly that I would have to complain AT LEAST AS MUCH AS YOU HAVE. . . . However, that wasn't a phone I actually bought, of course, or that is for sale anywhere today. > let me ask a question.? for your current phone, the one you > are talking about with the $35/month unlimited data plan, > and wifi, can you access the front page of the n.y. times site? > do you see all of the pictures?? can you click on all the links? > and if you can, how long does it take that front page to load? The Geek Luncher with that phone is out of state right now, but I will forward your question, though I would understand if he didn't want to sub to the NYT. However, believe not, _I_ have actually subbed, and will offer him my password. > can you get wikipedia?? or are you shunted to an "alternative" > version which has been dumbed-down for cell-phone access? I read most of my NYT via links in my email, so I don't know if I am getting full access, though it seems to be. Will try to compare to the phones. As for wikipedia, I don't like their regular pages, so I might actually like phone pages better. I'll try testing some of these at m.domain.dom > >?? An interesting POV. > >?? I'm not sure it's got any factual backing, but interesting. > >?? What about AT&T?? Or are you counting them? > > it's not a "p.o.v.".? it's how the history went down, michael. > > steve wanted verizon, because they were acknowledged as > "best".? but verizon turned him down flat, flat as a pancake. > > then he tried sprint, but they wouldn't give him a deal either. > > so at&t was his only other option.? they were so desperate, > for any business, that they basically couldn't turn him down. > > of course, all of us users have been totally dissatisfied with > at&t, because they haven't been able to get their act together, > despite the huge influx of business (and respect) from iphone. Actually, we have AT&T phones here, as well as others, and they seem to compete just fine. As far as Jobs. . .that might all have gone to the dinosaurs, according to the BBC and NPR. . .just wait a bit for release. Not to mention those Belgian iPhones, presuming they exist. ;-) > steve hung with them for quite a while, longer than he should, > but the word on the street is that their exclusivity is now gone. That's what I hear, too, but. . .the question is, did Jobs win/lose? I would say he won. . .you sound as if you think he lost. . . . > >?? Actually, all The Billionaire Boys Club are betting against you. > >?? As you may recall, I starting predicting years and years ago, > >?? when cellphones first reached 50% saturation levels, that the > >?? new wave of cellphones would be more wild new features. . . . > > i'm still waiting.? but i'm afraid that day is still off in the future. No, the future is now. We already are well past 50% saturation, you can't have it both ways. And, as you say, even those laggard US cellphones are finally coming around to the European standards from years ago. You can't have it both ways. . .which is it from the Bird's Nest??? I say there will be more and more features every year, even in US!!! However, if there is a mega-merger that leaves no competition, then we could all get screwed again, just as with so many cable locales. > these carrier companies are so used to having captive "customers" > that they don't really even _know_ how to engage in competition, > and they all understand that as long as their collusion remains > impossible to prove directly, they can milk all of their cash cows. Which is why Europe and The Pacific Rim have such better services, both Net and cell. As above. . .we'll see. Comcast could be the next big reason keeping space a vacuum. . . . > for years and years, they played the "minutes" game with us, and > even now, they think it's a big deal to knock $30 off their $99 plan > for unlimited _voice_ for a month.? but that's still a whopping $69. As compared to??? I'll have to admit that when I was in Europe the phone rates weren't so much less that I noticed, though the Net was pretty cheap. > >?? So who else is going to be allowed to provide for iPhones??? > > the rumor-mill says verizon will get the iphone in addition to at&t. > > i'm guessing half (or more) of the people who have suffered through > the at&t exclusivity period will switch to verizon as soon as they can. I think we agree on that, but we have to wait for reality to happen. > >?? Didn't I use the plural? > > no, you said "million", for that phone you own. I didn't mean that as a limit. . .just that you left out so many. > >?? Are iPhones up to 5% of cellphones yet? > >?? I think not [and vanished in a puff of greasy black smoke!] > >?? Actually, I would be surprised if even much over half that! > > another big disconnect between us here... > > because certainly the percentage of _cellphones_ doesn't matter, > not if we're throwing dumb-phones into the mix. In 10 years they will all be smart phones, other than for persons who actually really WANT the dumbest phones they can get, and I'm in contact with some of those. > i'm sure we'll get the updated figures during apple's press conference > wednesday, but i think the iphone has about 40% of the smart-phone > market today in the countries where it has been available for a while... If you are correct, that would mean the few tens of millions of iPhones would be 40% of less than 100 million smart phones. I think you are forgetting all the Blackberrys, Palms, etc. . . . If you are correct, then out of 4.5 billion cellphones only few percent are smart phones. . .I'd say you are wrong here, and there. > even more important, the trend-lines show that it's still surging, > while all the other smart-phones are holding steady or dropping. "it's" still surging??? You mean iPhones??? When iPhones make up 10% of all cellphones, then you have a real point. Up until then it's pretty much on the order of Macs. Yes, Macs are really out there, but very much a minority. Let me know how many smart phones you think there are in the world. > but the really startling statistic is that 80% of smart-phone bandwidth > is being generated by iphone users, meaning they use their phones to > navigate the web _twice_ as much as owners of other smart-phones... Or, just possibly, that iPhones are that much less efficient in getting their users what they want. . .or. . .iPhone users just spend twice as much on that sort of activity as other people, like Mac people do other things than the average computer user??? I'm serious here, please think about these questions. I'd be curious to do a real study on what would happen if you took big samples of iPhone and Blackberry users and swapped their phones a month and recorded what usage and changes took place. Isn't it just possible the iPhones are Yuppie phones? Hee hee! > >?? It's cute. . .no one says not. > > oh please.? spare yourself the indignity of backhanded "compliments". > the iphone is a lot more than "cute".? it has revolutionized the future. OK, I'm listening. . . . I have several people who are willing to buy me one. . .convince me!!! > >?? It's just not even 5% of the market, maybe half that. . . . > > only if you define "market" in a completely nonsensical way. > the iphone isn't competing against giveaway dumb-phones. OK, how many smartphones??? Why haven't you said THAT??? Are you really saying there are only 100 million smart phones in the entire world out of 4.5 billion??? Even when 2 1/4 billion of them are less than two years old? > >?? Seems to be following the Mac statistics. > > maybe you need to brush up on those statistics as well. > mac has 90% of the market for machines costing $1000+. Duh? And you talk about doing oddball statistics??? The average computer sold has been under $500 for years! Only Mac people CAN pay "$1000+". . .eh? You'd have to pile in A LOT OF STUFF to make one of my computers be over $1000. . . . I have high res, ultra black, 17", 1/3 terabyte, etc., all for under $500. . .I use outboard drives, sorry. N class wifi, network, 4 USBs, Firewire, flash ports, and who knows what else that I never use. Dual/layer DVD burner/lightscribe, etc. I will probably buy another one like this, next time. I also have a couple netbooks for half as much. > the only people buying p.c. hardware these days are the > people who have very little use for a _real_ computer... > they just want to check their e-mail and surf the web, > and maybe watch t.v. or a movie...? and guess what? And aren't those the most popular things to do??? > that's exactly what apple's itablet is gonna let them do. And it will be $1000, won't it??? > (jobs owns pixar, of course, and is the biggest shareholder > in disney, so that's the movie angle.? but disney also owns > a.b.c., so jobs has a direct interest in the future of t.v. too, > and that's why movie/t.v. will be the big thrust of the itablet. > in addition to bridging the gap between iphone and mac air.) Actually, the Geeks just bought a few 28" monitors that included both new and old TV tuners, etc. . . problem solved!!! $350. About 2.5 million pixels. > >?? Now iPods, that a different thing. . .heaven knows why, > >?? since there are SO many MP3 players working so well. > > "heaven knows why"?? you really think it's a big mystery? > > it's no mystery at all.? but i explained all of that in my > _original_reply_ to walter, which i will send tomorrow. > > in a nutshell here now, though, what is interesting is > how apple cannibalized its own ipod line with the touch, > which is essentially the iphone without the phone part > (so it boils down to the same form-factor as your phone, > michael, with wifi access but with no phone capability.) Yes, I love that idea, except that they cost too much!!! > that ipod touch -- with its dependence on wifi -- broke > free from the tyranny of the 2-year carrier-contract, and > basically puts the web in your pocket without access costs. Still too expensive. . .I'll get a clone. Or used. > now i would've thought this would be a non-starter, since > i'm not willing to carry around a touch _and_ a phone, but > lots of people apparently _are_ willing to do exactly that, > and apple hooked in those people, and that's pretty cool. No other differences than phone apps??? > >?? You just haven't see all the Euro-phones on the streets. . . . > > it's not hard for me to imagine a world where _everyone_ > is carrying around the web in their pocket all of the time... Me neither. . .people in Europe were doing email by phone in 1996. Can't remember all the other features. > i've had that idea for about 30 years now, which i concede > doesn't match the 50 years that you've got under your belt, > but i think it's still a long-enough time to nurture a dream. Which idea? And mine are more like 40, not 50. . . . > > -bowerbird > > From hart at pglaf.org Tue Jan 26 03:07:58 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 03:07:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> <4B5D45A6.4030707@perathoner.de> <66A02F53-EAF9-4CEE-B67B-24FE4445DBE7@uni-trier.de> <4B5DD83A.2010203@perathoner.de> Message-ID: What is the cost??? Many thanks!!! Michael On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Keith J. Schultz wrote: > The apple store in Hamburg! > > Am 25.01.2010 um 18:43 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: > > > Keith J. Schultz wrote: > >> Am 25.01.2010 um 08:17 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: > >> Overpriced Nahhh, Locked into its vendor: Maybein the states!! > >> Here in Europe you can get non sim locked ones. > > > > Where? > > > > > > -- > > Marcello Perathoner > > webmaster at gutenberg.org > > _______________________________________________ > > gutvol-d mailing list > > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From marcello at perathoner.de Tue Jan 26 10:42:39 2010 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:42:39 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> <4B5D45A6.4030707@perathoner.de> <66A02F53-EAF9-4CEE-B67B-24FE4445DBE7@uni-trier.de> <4B5DD83A.2010203@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <4B5F379F.90506@perathoner.de> Keith J. Schultz wrote: > The apple store in Hamburg! No dice. Go to: http://iphone-reserve.apple.com/WebObjects/RPRCustomer.woa/wa/buyiPhone?lang=de&country=DE select "Apple Store, Alstertal" and you can buy with prepaid or postpaid plan. You cannot buy without plan. That is confirmed by wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone#Verkauf_mit_Vertragsbindung There was a short window from Nov. 21 to Dec. 4 2007 in which Apple was legally forced to sell unlocked iPhones in Germany. They `complied? by offering unlocked iPhones for EUR 1,000 (locked ones were EUR 400). Some will rob you with a six-gun, And some with a fountain pen. (Woody Guthrie) -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From joey at joeysmith.com Tue Jan 26 15:35:23 2010 From: joey at joeysmith.com (Joey Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:35:23 -0700 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <275.29f5d5c3.38900495@aol.com> References: <275.29f5d5c3.38900495@aol.com> Message-ID: <20100126233523.GA1636@joeysmith.com> On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 03:40:53AM -0500, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > oh well, might as well continue this little thread... > i hope everyone realizes that michael and i don't > really disagree as much as all this rhetoric seems. > > *** > > michael said: > > Were we talking about sites? > > I thot we were talking about phones! > > oh, ok, i see where we had our disconnect. > > i was talking about "cell-phone optimized websites", yes, > since for many phones, that was the only way they could > adequately access the web, via sites that had been dumbed > down to the point where they were simple text-menus only. > > those dumbed-down sites were light on bandwidth and > didn't need any processing power. of course, they weren't > the "real" web, but they were the best those phones could do. > > let me ask a question. for your current phone, the one you > are talking about with the $35/month unlimited data plan, > and wifi, can you access the front page of the n.y. times site? > do you see all of the pictures? can you click on all the links? > and if you can, how long does it take that front page to load? > > can you get wikipedia? or are you shunted to an "alternative" > version which has been dumbed-down for cell-phone access? Bird: You appear to ignoring the approximately 700 million devices which, since sometime in 2005, have been able to run the Opera Mini browser, which is a full-scale browser like Firefox, IE, Chrome, Safari, or its own big brother, Opera. They even mention in the blog/press release that it renders the NY Times just fine! (see http://my.opera.com/eskils/blog/show.dml/26187) I have personally been using Opera Mini on a myriad of devices for almost 4 years now, and I haven't ended up "shunted" to alternative sites. Admittedly, I haven't been paying $35/month for that entire period (usually closer to $70/month), but I also have a "voice plan" attached to my devices. Maybe next time, you can actually hire a professional to do your research for you, as you so clearly dropped the ball here. Admittedly, the small screens makes using websites on these a decidedly sub-optimal experience, but that's only marginally less true of the iPhone or iPod touch that you seem so very fond of. From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Jan 26 16:10:07 2010 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:10:07 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets Message-ID: <1c8f5.4a12069b.3890de5f@aol.com> joey said: > Bird: You appear to ignoring the approximately > 700 million devices which, since sometime in 2005, > have been able to run the Opera Mini browser, > which is a full-scale browser like Firefox, IE, > Chrome, Safari, or its own big brother, Opera. gawd, it's like talking to a wall. > I have personally been using Opera Mini > on a myriad of devices for almost 4 years now you and who else? oh yeah, those 700 million "devices". but, for some strange unknown mysterious reasons, 99.9% of the people who check their weblogs find that opera (in all its forms) registers under 1% of their visits. and that's my point, here, people, that's my whole point. very few smart-phone users were using their smart-phones to visit the web. so even if it was "possible", in some sense of the word, no matter how sharply constrained, the fact is that very few people actually made use of that "possibility". and the fact that a few of you can come here and say "i did" doesn't change the fact that very few people out there in the real world were using their smart-phones to access the web. not until the iphone came along. even now, years after apple _revolutionized_ the way that smart-phones accessed the web, the small percentage of people who own iphones access the web disproportionately, clocking in at about twice the usage, if i remember correctly. > Maybe next time, you can actually hire a professional to > do your research for you, as you so clearly > dropped the ball here. maybe next time you can actually hire a professional to come here and try to put stupid words in my mouth, because you clearly are incapable of performing the task. > Admittedly, the small screens makes using websites on these > a decidedly sub-optimal experience, but that's only marginally > less true of the iPhone or iPod touch that you seem so very fond of. and evidently -- based on the actual facts of real-word usage -- the "marginally" better iphone screen makes a world of difference. or maybe it's the touchscreen. or the radically-transformed interface. or maybe it's z _combination_ of all of these factors, and even more. and, just to keep the record straight, i'm not "so very fond of" the iphone. the screen is still too small for me, for the most part... but my _personal_ feelings are not of any real importance here... what's important is the revolution that advanced the state of the art to the point where tens of millions of people were suddenly accessing the world wide web from their phones. that made all the difference... if microsoft would've done that, i would be cheering for microsoft... if h.p. would've done it, i'd be cheering for them, and talking about how _they_ made a difference by putting the web in our pocket... so, do you "get it"? it's _not_ who put the capability in place first, putting the first cell-phone-user online. it's who _developed_ it, to the point _tens_of_millions_ of cell-phone-users went online. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joey at joeysmith.com Tue Jan 26 17:40:43 2010 From: joey at joeysmith.com (Joey Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:40:43 -0700 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <1c8f5.4a12069b.3890de5f@aol.com> References: <1c8f5.4a12069b.3890de5f@aol.com> Message-ID: <20100127014043.GB1636@joeysmith.com> On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 07:10:07PM -0500, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > joey said: > > Bird: You appear to ignoring the approximately > > 700 million devices which, since sometime in 2005, > > have been able to run the Opera Mini browser, > > which is a full-scale browser like Firefox, IE, > > Chrome, Safari, or its own big brother, Opera. > > gawd, it's like talking to a wall. > > > > I have personally been using Opera Mini > > on a myriad of devices for almost 4 years now > > you and who else? oh yeah, those 700 million "devices". > > but, for some strange unknown mysterious reasons, > 99.9% of the people who check their weblogs find that > opera (in all its forms) registers under 1% of their visits. So, your evidence that "no one" was using Opera is that some handful of blogs which you've personally polled indicated that Opera was less than 0.01% of their traffic? Exactly which sites did you include in your survey? What was the standard deviation? Perhaps you mean that, in general, Opera is considered to only hold ~2% of the overall browser market? But that's a meaningless comparison in this context - the mobile browser market, even with your beloved iPhones out there in the wild for 2+ years, the best numbers I can find indicate that iPhone browsing is estimated a only 0.08 percent of all browsing activity worldwide. What a sea-change indeed! Or is it perhaps simply that YOUR social group (assuming anyone willing socializes with you) has finally joined the rest of the world and started using a computer more modern than your ancient Macintosh that you're using to build the vaporware ZML viewer/editor? > and that's my point, here, people, that's my whole point. > > very few smart-phone users were using their smart-phones > to visit the web. so even if it was "possible", in some sense > of the word, no matter how sharply constrained, the fact is > that very few people actually made use of that "possibility". > > and the fact that a few of you can come here and say "i did" > doesn't change the fact that very few people out there in the > real world were using their smart-phones to access the web. > > not until the iphone came along. > > even now, years after apple _revolutionized_ the way that > smart-phones accessed the web, the small percentage of > people who own iphones access the web disproportionately, > clocking in at about twice the usage, if i remember correctly. [snip] > > maybe next time you can actually hire a professional to > come here and try to put stupid words in my mouth, > because you clearly are incapable of performing the task. No, indeed - you have repeatedly proven perfectly capable of doing that yourself - for example, by ignoring the fact that "[t]he Opera mobile browser has surpassed Apple's iPhone browser as the most popular mobile browser internationally". [1] I believe far less credit belongs to the iPhone than belongs to the overall Zeitgeist that has led to a generation of people more comfortable with living their lives online - which can probably be attributed ultimately to things like wars, disaster, and other horrifying realities people would rather ignore while they play "Tap Tap" on their iPhone or read about Michelle Obama's wardrobe on the NY Times. [1] http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/06/02/opera.beats.safari.mobile/ From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Jan 26 18:00:15 2010 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:00:15 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets Message-ID: <20595.3f94f3a7.3890f82f@aol.com> c'mon joey. time after time i try to have a decent conversation with you, and time after time you end up making me regret it... *** joey said: > So, your evidence that "no one" was using Opera > is that some handful of blogs which you've personally polled > indicated that Opera was less than 0.01% of their traffic? > Exactly which sites did you include in your survey? > What was the standard deviation? dude. don't be stupid. there are organizations that track browser statistics on a world-wide basis, and they post their results for everyone to see. this ain't rocket-science. it's easy enough to google the results. > Perhaps you mean that, in general, Opera is considered > to only hold ~2% of the overall browser market? > But that's a meaningless comparison in this context > - the mobile browser market, even with > your beloved iPhones out there in the wild for 2+ years, > the best numbers I can find indicate that iPhone browsing > is estimated a only 0.08 percent of all browsing activity worldwide. > What a sea-change indeed! at&t has come out and said that iphone browsing is bursting the seams of their network. what more evidence do we need? do you guys live in a box? > Or is it perhaps simply that YOUR social group > (assuming anyone willing socializes with you) i see. now we start the direct ad hominem process. > has finally joined the rest of the world and > started using a computer more modern > than your ancient Macintosh my ancient macintosh? i'm running a nice macbook, mac os 10.5, with a 24-inch cinema screen, dude... i'm not sure who's feeding you your information, but you might want to do some fact-checking before you embarrass yourself... > that you're using to build the vaporware ZML viewer/editor? oops... too late... you already embarrassed yourself... that "vaporware" you're talking about was up years ago. nobody seemed to care. do you think i should push it? whatever the case, you're on notice. make the conversation worthwhile, joey, or i'm gonna stop talking to you... again... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joey at joeysmith.com Tue Jan 26 19:09:46 2010 From: joey at joeysmith.com (Joey Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:09:46 -0700 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <20595.3f94f3a7.3890f82f@aol.com> References: <20595.3f94f3a7.3890f82f@aol.com> Message-ID: <20100127030946.GC1636@joeysmith.com> On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 09:00:15PM -0500, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > c'mon joey. time after time i try to have a decent conversation > with you, and time after time you end up making me regret it... > > *** > > joey said: > > So, your evidence that "no one" was using Opera > > is that some handful of blogs which you've personally polled > > indicated that Opera was less than 0.01% of their traffic? > > Exactly which sites did you include in your survey? > > What was the standard deviation? > > dude. don't be stupid. there are organizations that > track browser statistics on a world-wide basis, and > they post their results for everyone to see. this ain't > rocket-science. it's easy enough to google the results. There are, and I have, and the results are the numbers I just shared with you: iPhones are at around 0.08% of ALL BROWSING EVERYWHERE - but you'd have us all believe that there is some massive influx of browsing that was never happening before simply because Apple released the iPhone. Your assertions hold no water. > > Perhaps you mean that, in general, Opera is considered > > to only hold ~2% of the overall browser market? > > But that's a meaningless comparison in this context > > - the mobile browser market, even with > > your beloved iPhones out there in the wild for 2+ years, > > the best numbers I can find indicate that iPhone browsing > > is estimated a only 0.08 percent of all browsing activity worldwide. > > What a sea-change indeed! > > at&t has come out and said that iphone browsing is bursting > the seams of their network. what more evidence do we need? > > do you guys live in a box? 1) Sure, if you're AT&T, and you managed to find a massive scapegoat for your systemic failure, you'd jump all over that too. 2) Even assuming that AT&T is being honest (which is not a given by any means) and that this isn't some marketing ploy Apple and AT&T cooked up - this says less to me about the quantity and quality of iPhone browsing than it does the miserable state of AT&T's pitiful wireless network coverage - an especially uncomfortable thought since I'm a daily victim of that horrid monstrosity and can personally attest that it has not gotten any worse in the 2+ years since the introduction of the iPhone. Their network was already "bursting at the seams" in many areas - adding a few million users who WEREN'T browsing the web would cause the same problems. > > Or is it perhaps simply that YOUR social group > > (assuming anyone willing socializes with you) > > i see. now we start the direct ad hominem process. There's no winning with you - if I call out the assumption, it's an attack. If I don't call out the assumption, you'll reply that I've made an assumption. And you call this a "decent conversation"? > > has finally joined the rest of the world and > > started using a computer more modern > > than your ancient Macintosh > > my ancient macintosh? i'm running a nice macbook, > mac os 10.5, with a 24-inch cinema screen, dude... > i'm not sure who's feeding you your information, but > you might want to do some fact-checking before you > embarrass yourself... Seems you've upgraded your computer significantly since the last time I responded to one of your outbursts, as you led me to believe you were developing your ZML app on the only computer you could afford, and it was several years old at the time > > > > that you're using to build the vaporware ZML viewer/editor? > > oops... too late... you already embarrassed yourself... > that "vaporware" you're talking about was up years ago. > nobody seemed to care. do you think i should push it? Where's the download link for this editor/viewer? z-m-l.com has never hosted it, and software that only the creator can use is as "vaporware" as it gets. > > whatever the case, you're on notice. make the conversation > worthwhile, joey, or i'm gonna stop talking to you... again... > > -bowerbird A personal boon, and most assuredly one to the rest of the list as well. From Bowerbird at aol.com Tue Jan 26 20:22:21 2010 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:22:21 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets Message-ID: <23a24.744f20a5.3891197d@aol.com> joey said: > you'd have us all believe that there is > some massive influx of browsing > that was never happening before > simply because Apple released the iPhone. that's exactly what i'm saying, you're right. (which is a huge improvement, in the sense that now you're not trying to put words in my mouth.) there are some 60 million people out there with itouch/iphone hardware who now visit the web -- at least occasionally -- who did not before... don't get me wrong. the opera mini-browser was a huge accomplishment, once upon a time. it was just placed in the wrong hardware is all. (and, on the flip side, nokia had some very cool hardware, but it was plagued by uncool software, and a user-base that never attained critical mass. that's the important concept here folks, critical mass.) > Your assertions hold no water. i'm _astounded_ anyone questions this observation, since those 60 million people are darn hard to miss! indeed, joey, didn't you say your wife was one of us? > if you're AT&T, and you managed to find > a massive scapegoat for your systemic failure, > you'd jump all over that too. i see. now you admit that 60 million users constitutes a "massive" phenomenon. so we have some progress. > Even assuming that AT&T is being honest > (which is not a given by any means) at&t conceded they can't handle the traffic in n.y. city. i'm sure plenty of people in manhattan can vouch for that. > and that this isn't some marketing ploy > Apple and AT&T cooked up oh yeah, sure, it's a great "marketing ploy" to admit that you can't handle the traffic in the country's biggest city. it's the kind of thing that does wonders for a reputation. > an especially uncomfortable thought since > I'm a daily victim of that horrid monstrosity > and can personally attest that it has not gotten > any worse in the 2+ years since the introduction > of the iPhone. it hasn't gotten any better, either, which is terribly sad. especially when the reports came out that said that even though at&t is making more money than before, they haven't plowed much of it back into building up their capacity for the future. it seems that they would rather just take the money and run. fake steve jobs had a great column on this about 2-4 weeks back... > you led me to believe you were developing your ZML app > on the only computer you could afford, and it was > several years old at the time your reading comprehension skills have never impressed me. > Where's the download link for this editor/viewer? join the zml_talk group at yahoogroups, and you can find the programs in the "files" section, dated june 9, 2005... write up a thoughtful review and post it to this listserve, and then i'll send you a more recent copy if you want one. but i get the feeling you're not interested. you just wanted to hurl an insult, and you didn't know that the one you threw ("vaporware"!) had its viability demolished over 5 years ago... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hart at pglaf.org Tue Jan 26 23:28:56 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:28:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <23a24.744f20a5.3891197d@aol.com> References: <23a24.744f20a5.3891197d@aol.com> Message-ID: Noting bird did not reply to my last reply to him. And proceeding accordingly. On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > joey said: > >?? you'd have us all believe that there is > >?? some massive influx of browsing > >?? that was never happening before > >?? simply because Apple released the iPhone. > > that's exactly what i'm saying, you're right. > > (which is a huge improvement, in the sense that > now you're not trying to put words in my mouth.) > > there are some 60 million people out there with > itouch/iphone hardware who now visit the web > -- at least occasionally -- who did not before... In my own experience most of the iPhone/iPod Touch users I know were more than inclined to "visit the web" more than the average. . .before. As usual, I'm willing to bet on it. > don't get me wrong.? the opera mini-browser > was a huge accomplishment, once upon a time. > it was just placed in the wrong hardware is all. If the software works well, how is it that the hardware can be the problem. > (and, on the flip side, nokia had some very cool > hardware, but it was plagued by uncool software, > and a user-base that never attained critical mass. > that's the important concept here folks, critical mass.) Personally, I think Nokia made significant contributions, but you might be right as of late, as I haven't kept up a lot with what they are doing today. In fact, I would love input on how Nokia, Ericsson, etc., are doing, since I haven't been to Europe lately. I am also curious why Sony, etc., haven't been in it all. > > > >?? Your assertions hold no water. > > i'm _astounded_ anyone questions this observation, > since those 60 million people are darn hard to miss! > indeed, joey, didn't you say your wife was one of us? 60 million out of 4.5 billion??? Still not an earthshaking percentage. Aren't there more iPods than iPhones? By a lot!?!?!? > >?? if you're AT&T, and you managed to find > >?? a massive scapegoat for your systemic failure, > >?? you'd jump all over that too. > > i see.? now you admit that 60 million users constitutes > a "massive" phenomenon.? so we have some progress. Then again, eReaders would kill for those numbers!!! > >?? Even assuming that AT&T is being honest > >?? (which is not a given by any means) > > at&t conceded they can't handle the traffic in n.y. city. > i'm sure plenty of people in manhattan can vouch for that. There are always going to be bottlenecks. Go to any major university at try to get a cell line the moment the exit bell rings. . .not always. . . . Try in NYC, Chicago, Boston, etc., where universities are packed in some neighborhoods like sardines. . . . Or when news breaks. . . . The real question is what happens 90% of the time, not during the exceptions, though _I_ would be most willing to cancel my service and refuse to pay any early terminations fees on that cause. . .but the truth is that people are pretty spoiled to expect everything to work all of the time. When's the last time YOUR utilities were off 4 days? > >?? and that this isn't some marketing ploy > >?? Apple and AT&T cooked up > > oh yeah, sure, it's a great "marketing ploy" to admit that > you can't handle the traffic in the country's biggest city. > it's the kind of thing that does wonders for a reputation. Is anyone going to actually mention just how much services were degrading? > >?? an especially uncomfortable thought since > >?? I'm a daily victim of that horrid monstrosity > >?? and can personally attest that it has not gotten > >?? any worse in the 2+ years since the introduction > >?? of the iPhone. > > it hasn't gotten any better, either, which is terribly sad. I still want to know how bad it was. . . . Doesn't anyone remember when PG had notices asking people not to call in at certain overload times? I remember when LOTS of major sites uses to post graphics showing the user levels so people would come in during "off peak hours." Doesn't anyone remember any of this? > especially when the reports came out that said that > even though at&t is making more money than before, > they haven't plowed much of it back into building up > their capacity for the future.? it seems that they would > rather just take the money and run.? fake steve jobs > had a great column on this about 2-4 weeks back... > > > >?? you led me to believe you were developing your ZML app > >?? on the only computer you could afford, and it was > >?? several years old at the time > > your reading comprehension skills have never impressed me. Makes me wonder how anyone here passed grade school. . . . > >?? Where's the download link for this editor/viewer? > > join the zml_talk group at yahoogroups, and you can find > the programs in the "files" section, dated june 9, 2005... > > write up a thoughtful review and post it to this listserve, > and then i'll send you a more recent copy if you want one. > > but i get the feeling you're not interested.? you just wanted > to hurl an insult, and you didn't know that the one you threw > ("vaporware"!) had its viability demolished over 5 years ago... > > -bowerbird > > From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Jan 27 00:03:33 2010 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 03:03:33 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets Message-ID: <262a6.7984e7ab.38914d55@aol.com> michael said: > Noting bird did not reply to my last reply to him. not so fast there, mister... i'll get around to it... :+) and to the one you just posted, too. but i've got a girlfriend at this end, and poetry events which must be attended, and dinner, and even twitter, and digitizing a book, in a friendly feud with rfrank, so you have to wait your turn... or... go out of turn... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schultzk at uni-trier.de Wed Jan 27 02:28:54 2010 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Keith J. Schultz) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:28:54 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: References: <275.29f5d5c3.38900495@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi All, Am 26.01.2010 um 12:04 schrieb Michael S. Hart: > > On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: [snip, snip, snip] > You seem to be missing that the numbers of cellphones sold per > year are really on the order of BILLION not of a million. > > 4.5 BILLION cellphone out there. > > How many iPhones? > > 1% would be 45 million. . .but that's not what anyone claims. > > There just aren't that many iPhones out there. . . . > > Percentagewise. True. But, like I said they iPhones use are one of the highest percentage users of the internet consumer wise. beating Nokia phones by a large margin!! > > >>> Don't you ever listen??? >>> I've said for ages, "Don't buy a cellphone without wifi!" >> > [snip, snip, snip] > >> let me ask a question. for your current phone, the one you >> are talking about with the $35/month unlimited data plan, >> and wifi, can you access the front page of the n.y. times site? >> do you see all of the pictures? can you click on all the links? >> and if you can, how long does it take that front page to load? Here in Germany data plans roughly $50 across the board. You can get unlimited data plans with flat rates to land lines (germany wide) and the venodors telephone network starting around $ 70. Well, most newer phones and some older one will get you 7 Mb/s. Just time the loading of www.nytimes.com : 5secs!! Used the standard brower that came with the the Phone. No, pictures! NYT offers a special pages for phones. I used Opera mini and it took 10 secs this time the regular site page with all the bells and whistles. > The Geek Luncher with that phone is out of state right now, > but I will forward your question, though I would understand > if he didn't want to sub to the NYT. However, believe not, > _I_ have actually subbed, and will offer him my password. > > >> can you get wikipedia? or are you shunted to an "alternative" >> version which has been dumbed-down for cell-phone access? I get the standard wikipedia in phones standard browser. > > I read most of my NYT via links in my email, so I don't know if > I am getting full access, though it seems to be. > > Will try to compare to the phones. The iPhone will take a little longer as it only uses 3Mb/s > > As for wikipedia, I don't like their regular pages, so I might > actually like phone pages better. > > I'll try testing some of these at m.domain.dom > > >>> An interesting POV. >>> I'm not sure it's got any factual backing, but interesting. >>> What about AT&T? Or are you counting them? >> >> it's not a "p.o.v.". it's how the history went down, michael. >> >> steve wanted verizon, because they were acknowledged as >> "best". but verizon turned him down flat, flat as a pancake. And Know! Everybody wants to get on the band wagon. But, they can not because of the deals made!! Once the iphone took off alot of companies tried to get the iPhone, but could not. As the contracts are running out the other providers are moving in! In France the iPhones can be un-SIM-locked after 2 months for free. In Germany you have to pay a $40 fee, but they have to do it. >> >> then he tried sprint, but they wouldn't give him a deal either. >> >> so at&t was his only other option. they were so desperate, >> for any business, that they basically couldn't turn him down. >> >> of course, all of us users have been totally dissatisfied with >> at&t, because they haven't been able to get their act together, >> despite the huge influx of business (and respect) from iphone. > > Actually, we have AT&T phones here, as well as others, and they > seem to compete just fine. > > As far as Jobs. . .that might all have gone to the dinosaurs, > according to the BBC and NPR. . .just wait a bit for release. > > Not to mention those Belgian iPhones, presuming they exist. Like I have mentioned before non-SIM-locked iPhones can be gotten. Here in Germany for little more than a half of a year. The only problem is you can not get them directly from the telephone providers, but they are more than willing to connect you up to a vendor. > > ;-) > > >> steve hung with them for quite a while, longer than he should, >> but the word on the street is that their exclusivity is now gone. > > That's what I hear, too, but. . .the question is, did Jobs win/lose? > > I would say he won. . .you sound as if you think he lost. . . . > > >>> Actually, all The Billionaire Boys Club are betting against you. >>> As you may recall, I starting predicting years and years ago, >>> when cellphones first reached 50% saturation levels, that the >>> new wave of cellphones would be more wild new features. . . . >> >> i'm still waiting. but i'm afraid that day is still off in the future. > > No, the future is now. [snip, snip, snip] > >> for years and years, they played the "minutes" game with us, and >> even now, they think it's a big deal to knock $30 off their $99 plan >> for unlimited _voice_ for a month. but that's still a whopping $69. > > As compared to??? > > I'll have to admit that when I was in Europe the phone rates weren't > so much less that I noticed, though the Net was pretty cheap. $ 99 Just for voice!! O.K. I have unlimited voice Net and cell germany wide, unlimited data, unlimited voice for 20 other European countries and the US Net, and a Net number which people can call using Net and they get Net prices, Navigation Flat rate, unlimited mobile TV, practically unlimited texting and MMS, and super cheap video phone service for $ 120 [snip, snip] > >>> So who else is going to be allowed to provide for iPhones??? >> >> the rumor-mill says verizon will get the iphone in addition to at&t. >> >> i'm guessing half (or more) of the people who have suffered through >> the at&t exclusivity period will switch to verizon as soon as they can. > > I think we agree on that, but we have to wait for reality to happen. > > "it's" still surging??? > > You mean iPhones??? > > When iPhones make up 10% of all cellphones, then you have a real point. Well, in a sense the iPhone already has that margin if you look at individual Phones. Just take a look at the number for individual phone models (considering models with different memory sizes as one) and you will realise the the iPhone is the most successful. Beside it is just one phone. whereas the others 10s of models. > > Up until then it's pretty much on the order of Macs. > > Yes, Macs are really out there, but very much a minority. And taking steadily more and more of the market. Slowly, though. > > Let me know how many smart phones you think there are in the world. > > >> but the really startling statistic is that 80% of smart-phone bandwidth >> is being generated by iphone users, meaning they use their phones to >> navigate the web _twice_ as much as owners of other smart-phones... > > Or, just possibly, that iPhones are that much less efficient in getting > their users what they want. . .or. . .iPhone users just spend twice as > much on that sort of activity as other people, like Mac people do other > things than the average computer user??? Coming back to the point whether the iPhone is revolutionary or not. Then there is ease of use and the required service model. iPhones need data service to work its magic. When people have to have a service they use it. With other smart phones you use to need to pay a high premium to use data. Since the advent of the iPhone newer cheaper service rates have appeared. Yet, the users of the other smart phones still do not utilize them to thier full capacity! > > I'm serious here, please think about these questions. > > I'd be curious to do a real study on what would happen if you took big > samples of iPhone and Blackberry users and swapped their phones a month > and recorded what usage and changes took place. Interesting!! > > Isn't it just possible the iPhones are Yuppie phones? I thought Yuppies used Blackberries already. At least in the original definition of the term. > > Hee hee! > > >>> It's cute. . .no one says not. >> >> oh please. spare yourself the indignity of backhanded "compliments". >> the iphone is a lot more than "cute". it has revolutionized the future. > > OK, I'm listening. . . . > > I have several people who are willing to buy me one. . .convince me!!! > > >>> It's just not even 5% of the market, maybe half that. . . . >> >> only if you define "market" in a completely nonsensical way. >> the iphone isn't competing against giveaway dumb-phones. > > OK, how many smartphones??? Why haven't you said THAT??? > > Are you really saying there are only 100 million smart phones > in the entire world out of 4.5 billion??? > > Even when 2 1/4 billion of them are less than two years old? > > >>> Seems to be following the Mac statistics. >> >> maybe you need to brush up on those statistics as well. >> mac has 90% of the market for machines costing $1000+. > > Duh? And you talk about doing oddball statistics??? > > The average computer sold has been under $500 for years! Yeah! Where is you monitor, wireless keyboard and mouse. Not to mention performance CPU, Graphics, memory size and battery life expectancy (for laptops, after two years non-mac laptop batteries are dead, on all mine they are still alive and give me still 2 hours). Not to mention costs for security software and life expectancy. The average non Mac, needs to be replace every two to three years to keep up with the demands of the development of programs. Macs you can keep at least 5 - 6 years. Mac users realize you get more for your buck. Give your average windows user a Mac for two weeks and thier next computer will be a Mac!! Give a Mac user a Windows or Linux Box for a month and they will return it within a few days! ;-)) O.K. They will not switch. > > Only Mac people CAN pay "$1000+". . .eh? Yeah, but the others spend those 500 more often!! > >>> Now iPods, that a different thing. . .heaven knows why, >>> since there are SO many MP3 players working so well. >> >> "heaven knows why"? you really think it's a big mystery? >> >> it's no mystery at all. but i explained all of that in my >> _original_reply_ to walter, which i will send tomorrow. >> >> in a nutshell here now, though, what is interesting is >> how apple cannibalized its own ipod line with the touch, >> which is essentially the iphone without the phone part >> (so it boils down to the same form-factor as your phone, >> michael, with wifi access but with no phone capability.) > > Yes, I love that idea, except that they cost too much!!! Sure, but take a look at the price per GB as compared to other devices. Do not forget they can not do as much either or have that many apps. > > >> that ipod touch -- with its dependence on wifi -- broke >> free from the tyranny of the 2-year carrier-contract, and >> basically puts the web in your pocket without access costs. > > Still too expensive. . .I'll get a clone. Theres is a clone to the touch?? > > Or used. > >>> You just haven't see all the Euro-phones on the streets. . . . >> >> it's not hard for me to imagine a world where _everyone_ >> is carrying around the web in their pocket all of the time... > > Me neither. . .people in Europe were doing email by phone in 1996. Their was, also, special internet servicesa and text based web, but expensive as all hell. regards Keith. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schultzk at uni-trier.de Wed Jan 27 02:35:55 2010 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Keith J. Schultz) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:35:55 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> <4B5D45A6.4030707@perathoner.de> <66A02F53-EAF9-4CEE-B67B-24FE4445DBE7@uni-trier.de> <4B5DD83A.2010203@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <15F66B60-0876-4353-A096-94434D858013@uni-trier.de> Hi Micheal, can not say. I was thinking of getting of an iphone and my carrier was willing to hook me up with a vendor, but the iPhones 3G performance is to slow. Sooo, now I have a N97. regards Keith. Am 26.01.2010 um 12:07 schrieb Michael S. Hart: > > What is the cost??? > > > Many thanks!!! > > > Michael > > > On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Keith J. Schultz wrote: > >> The apple store in Hamburg! >> >> Am 25.01.2010 um 18:43 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: >> >>> Keith J. Schultz wrote: >>>> Am 25.01.2010 um 08:17 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: >>>> Overpriced Nahhh, Locked into its vendor: Maybein the states!! >>>> Here in Europe you can get non sim locked ones. >>> From walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 27 02:36:42 2010 From: walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl (Walter van Holst) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:36:42 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> <4B5D45A6.4030707@perathoner.de> <66A02F53-EAF9-4CEE-B67B-24FE4445DBE7@uni-trier.de> <4B5DD83A.2010203@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <4B60173A.9010808@xs4all.nl> On 1/26/10 12:07 PM, Michael S. Hart wrote: > > What is the cost??? Belgian stores carry the 16 GB 3GS model for about 575 Euro. (http://www.phonehouse.be) Here in the Netherlands you'll pay about a 100 Euro more than that for parallel-imported sim-lock free ones. I These are all prices for phones without any plan whatsoever. f you are willing to chain yourself to a multiple year plan of about 20-30 Euro per month, you'll pay nothing. BTW, mobile operators are obliged to unlock your SIM upon request after our contract has expired, or in the case of prepaid phones, after twelve months. Now to the market share: iPhone marketshare is about 20-30%: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/wider-distribution-lifting-iphone-sales-in-europe-2009-11-19 Mobile Safari's share in worldwide web traffic among mobile browsers is about 30% (which is the leading position): http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/06/opera-bests-iphones-mobile-browser-market-shareor-does-it.ars Some reports put the share in web use for the iPhone even at the 40% of the total mobile web use. That is what I call actually putting the web in the pockets of the masses. On to cell-phone heaven that you think Europe is (I'm there, so I can judge it). Nokia has thoroughly dropped the ball when it comes to smartphones. They still make fine normal phones, their smartphones are deeply annoying to use for anything else than just making phone calls. It has to be said though, the iPhone is a very poor phone. It is a great mobile internet device. Regards, Walter From schultzk at uni-trier.de Wed Jan 27 02:52:21 2010 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Keith J. Schultz) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:52:21 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <4B5F379F.90506@perathoner.de> References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> <4B5D45A6.4030707@perathoner.de> <66A02F53-EAF9-4CEE-B67B-24FE4445DBE7@uni-trier.de> <4B5DD83A.2010203@perathoner.de> <4B5F379F.90506@perathoner.de> Message-ID: Hi Marcello, I said non SIM-Locked. Apple will directly sell you one if a vendor will refers you to them. There are other vendors are offering them, too. How they get them I can not say. I believe the import them from other countries. 2007 was a long time ago. You can get the iPhone for $70 - $2 via German Telecom depending on your plan and yes those are SIM-Lock. But, they can be unlocked for a fee! In France the iPhones can be unlocked after 2 month and if I remember correctly for free. I won't and will never buy a telephone that is SIM-Lock. That is just a way the carrier tries to bind you. My last couple of phones have gone to my nieces. They are the envy of their class. As all where smart phones. regards Keith. Am 26.01.2010 um 19:42 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: > Keith J. Schultz wrote: >> The apple store in Hamburg! > > No dice. Go to: > > http://iphone-reserve.apple.com/WebObjects/RPRCustomer.woa/wa/buyiPhone?lang=de&country=DE > > select "Apple Store, Alstertal" and you can buy with prepaid or postpaid plan. You cannot buy without plan. > > That is confirmed by wikipedia: > > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone#Verkauf_mit_Vertragsbindung > > There was a short window from Nov. 21 to Dec. 4 2007 in which Apple was legally forced to sell unlocked iPhones in Germany. They `complied? by offering unlocked iPhones for EUR 1,000 (locked ones were EUR 400). > > > Some will rob you with a six-gun, > And some with a fountain pen. > (Woody Guthrie) > > > > -- > Marcello Perathoner > webmaster at gutenberg.org > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d From marcello at perathoner.de Wed Jan 27 10:01:58 2010 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:01:58 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> <4B5D45A6.4030707@perathoner.de> <66A02F53-EAF9-4CEE-B67B-24FE4445DBE7@uni-trier.de> <4B5DD83A.2010203@perathoner.de> <4B5F379F.90506@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <4B607F96.8090007@perathoner.de> Keith J. Schultz wrote: > Hi Marcello, > > I said non SIM-Locked. Apple will directly sell you one if a vendor > will refers you to them. There are other vendors are offering them, > too. How they get them I can not say. I believe the import them from > other countries. If I can get an unlocked phone only if I subscribe to a 24-month plan, then where's the difference? What would I do with the plan I just subscribed to? Stick the card in my stamp collection and pay EUR 50 a month for that? I don't want a gray import or a phone bought hundreds of miles away in a foreign country. I want a phone with 2 years legal warranty that, if it breaks down, I can bring to a shop in the town I live and have it replaced on the spot or get my money back like I'm entitled according to European law. And, because I get around a lot, I want a phone I can use with any provider in Europe, prepaid or postpaid or without any card at all. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From jimad at msn.com Wed Jan 27 10:58:02 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:58:02 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Apple live "iPad" tablet debut and announcement of "iBook" reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good live blog coverage at: http://live.gdgt.com/2010/01/27/live-apple-come-see-our-latest-creation-tabl et-event-coverage/#sort=desc One negative: it sounds like it is going to be a 100 dpi display. From hart at pglaf.org Wed Jan 27 11:00:22 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:00:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] New "iPad" From Apple Message-ID: It looks and acts a lot like a huge iPhone, most apps work ok, but some tweaking is required to optimal results. In case you aren't keeping up with this live: 9.7" screen 1.5 pounds .5" thick 10 hour battery 1Ghz processor up to 64G RAM "n" wifi bluetooth no 3G or 4G In addition the 250 millionth iPod was sold around New Year's. No mention of how many iPhones. From jimad at msn.com Wed Jan 27 11:00:41 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:00:41 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Apple live "iPad" tablet debut and announcement of "iBook" reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ePub format -- thank god they didn't create something proprietary! From creeva at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 11:13:30 2010 From: creeva at gmail.com (Brent Gueth) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:13:30 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New "iPad" From Apple In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2510ddab1001271113n6a26b4a3vf74d219c88d1f253@mail.gmail.com> 3g just announced On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 2:00 PM, Michael S. Hart wrote: > > It looks and acts a lot like a huge iPhone, most apps work ok, > but some tweaking is required to optimal results. > > > In case you aren't keeping up with this live: > > > 9.7" screen > > 1.5 pounds > > .5" thick > > 10 hour battery > > 1Ghz processor > > up to 64G RAM > > "n" wifi > > bluetooth > > no 3G or 4G > > > In addition the 250 millionth iPod was sold around New Year's. > > > No mention of how many iPhones. > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimad at msn.com Wed Jan 27 11:24:46 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:24:46 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Taste & ethics with old e-books at Kindle In-Reply-To: <4B5C8DEE.4030706@perathoner.de> References: <4B5C8DEE.4030706@perathoner.de> Message-ID: My take on all this is that somehow Amazon has got this idea that they can let people publish under the Amazon name without doing SOME kind of policing what kind of "books" people publish there. Obviously to me under this business model some people will figure that they can capitalize on the Amazon name in a negative way by ripping people off. So, my take on this is that right now Amazon has a failed business model for their publishing house. If you want your name to retain credibility you have to do some policing of your publishing efforts -- even PG has got the whitewashers "police force" -- ;-) ...but this in turn begs the question of what exactly people are publishing on Amazon using the PG name??? From hart at pglaf.org Wed Jan 27 11:27:48 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:27:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] MORE Re: New "iPad" From Apple In-Reply-To: <2510ddab1001271113n6a26b4a3vf74d219c88d1f253@mail.gmail.com> References: <2510ddab1001271113n6a26b4a3vf74d219c88d1f253@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: CORRECTION: The finally mentioned 3G, but not 4G "At $499 a lot of people can afford an iPad. 16GB is our base model. For 32GB its $100 more, and for $100 more than that you get $64GB. The 3G models cost another $130." Prices seem to be from $500 to $830 at the moment. The only eBook mentioned was $15, 50% higher than the $10 price tag on most commercial releases. iTunes should work the same. All models are unlocked. No contract, prepaid, cancel any time. $15 a month for 1/4 gigabyte of total bandwidth. [You won't be downloading any movies!!!!!!!] [You might not even want too many iTunes. . . .] From hart at pglaf.org Wed Jan 27 11:30:59 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:30:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Taste & ethics with old e-books at Kindle In-Reply-To: References: <4B5C8DEE.4030706@perathoner.de> Message-ID: As for Amazon's business plan, they've always seemed to favor doing it the fastest possible way without much regard for anything else. "Quick and dirty" might not be the best descriptor, but it's there. On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, James Adcock wrote: > My take on all this is that somehow Amazon has got this idea that they can > let people publish under the Amazon name without doing SOME kind of policing > what kind of "books" people publish there. Obviously to me under this > business model some people will figure that they can capitalize on the > Amazon name in a negative way by ripping people off. So, my take on this is > that right now Amazon has a failed business model for their publishing > house. If you want your name to retain credibility you have to do some > policing of your publishing efforts -- even PG has got the whitewashers > "police force" -- ;-) > > ...but this in turn begs the question of what exactly people are publishing > on Amazon using the PG name??? > > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From hart at pglaf.org Wed Jan 27 11:33:03 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:33:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] !@! CORRECTION. . .RESEND Message-ID: My previous try didn't seem to make it, so. . . . CORRECTION: The finally mentioned 3G, but not 4G At $499 a lot of people can afford an iPad. 16GB is our base model. For 32GB its $100 more, and for $100 more than that you get $64GB. The 3G models cost another $130. Prices seem to be from $500 to $830 at the moment. The only eBook mentioned was $15, 50% higher than the $10 price tag on most commercial releases. iTunes should work the same. All models are unlocked. No contract, prepaid, cancel any time. $15 a month for 1/4 gigabyte of total bandwidth. [You won't be downloading any movies!!!!!!!] [You might not even want too many iTunes. . . .] From hart at pglaf.org Wed Jan 27 11:52:30 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:52:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <262a6.7984e7ab.38914d55@aol.com> References: <262a6.7984e7ab.38914d55@aol.com> Message-ID: Just commenting that you answered other messages, but not mine. Perhaps they didn't arrive to you in the order I saw them, but I felt I should mention _I_ was answering out of order due to that. mh On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > michael said: > >?? Noting bird did not reply to my last reply to him. > > not so fast there, mister...? i'll get around to it...?????? :+) > > and to the one you just posted, too. > > but i've got a girlfriend at this end, and poetry events > which must be attended, and dinner, and even twitter, > and digitizing a book, in a friendly feud with rfrank, > so you have to wait your turn...? or... go out of turn... > > -bowerbird > > From jimad at msn.com Wed Jan 27 12:00:15 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:00:15 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: New "iPad" From Apple In-Reply-To: <2510ddab1001271113n6a26b4a3vf74d219c88d1f253@mail.gmail.com> References: <2510ddab1001271113n6a26b4a3vf74d219c88d1f253@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Its up as a "splash" now at http://www.apple.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimad at msn.com Wed Jan 27 12:03:39 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:03:39 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Formats and gripes In-Reply-To: <20100124200541.GH27785@pglaf.org> References: <20100124200541.GH27785@pglaf.org> Message-ID: >But we do host them...it's just that we're generating them on demand, which has numerous practical benefits for the producers, and is close to transparent for the human readers. Three problems with the "on demand" approach [which in general I like] 1) It doesn't do the "spine" stuff right like TOC and covers. 2) If the "on demand" has problems with the generated results you ought to let people submit versions of those file formats that do work, and those submissions ought to override the "on demand" stuff until if and when the "on demand" version gets fixed. 3) It would be nice if you could provide a version of your conversion tools to PG "authors" so that they could work to make the submitted HTML work correctly with the conversion tools. Right now we "authors" are guestimating to the results of the "on demand" outputs by cross-compiling the HTML to EPUB and MOBI using one of a variety of non-PG conversion tools -- and then submitting the HTML to PG when that works -- which seems kind of silly given that we are actually targeting the unseen PG tools. From hart at pglaf.org Wed Jan 27 12:07:41 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:07:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] iPad Complaints received so far: Message-ID: No Adobe Flash No Camera No VOIP [Skype, Vonage, etc] No battery swapping!!! No outboard memory!!! No comment on bundling data plans No mention of resolution levels From creeva at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 12:21:04 2010 From: creeva at gmail.com (Brent Gueth) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:21:04 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Complaints received so far: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2510ddab1001271221v53c782e4o6d24ddfe3640309a@mail.gmail.com> I read the resolution is 1024x768 http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/27/apple-ipad-first-hands-on/ It runs all iphone apps and there is a microphone, so Skype and other apps would work (maybe not over 3g) Data plan bundles and such will come this summer with a subsidy I'm sure, just like when the original iphone was released. On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Michael S. Hart wrote: > > No Adobe Flash > No Camera > No VOIP [Skype, Vonage, etc] > No battery swapping!!! > No outboard memory!!! > No comment on bundling data plans > No mention of resolution levels > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Jan 27 12:25:17 2010 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:25:17 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: on your planet Message-ID: <398f4.35ff10d.3891fb2d@aol.com> ok, here's that reply a wrote over the weekend. i didn't send it then, because i was hoping this thread would end. but i probably should have, because it might have prevented some of the unnecessary and unproductive drift on this thread. anyway, here it is, unedited, so sorry if it hits some points that were later repeated in the thread as it developed. -bowerbird ************************************************************************* walter said: > Even a broken clock is right twice a day. interesting, because i use that same expression about someone else. except i note that he is a _hyperactive_ clock, and is therefore correct about 10 times per day. except he never knows if he's right or wrong. > The bird is right when he says that > the iPhone put the the web in our pockets > in the sense that it, just like the iPod before it, > had almost next to nothing that was > new in terms of technical capabalities, > but through extremely clever packaging made those > techincal capabilities interesting to the masses. well... except that's not what i said, not what i said at all, not even close to what i said, not even on the same planet. (perhaps walter is on the same planet as david, i dunno.) there were indeed mp3 players before the ipod came about. so if you think of the ipod as an mp3 player, then you might just come to the conclusion that the ipod was "nothing new". but that would be a stupid conclusion. what the ipod did was it married the hardware to software, in the form of the itunes store, which made the _purchase_ of digital songs slick and easy, transforming the industry... the software also made it easy to rip your entire collection from the physical c.d. form to the digital ipod form, which was another vitally important piece of the puzzle that most of the other hardware companies had overlooked entirely... (and don't bother telling me that it was _possible_ to do it with other brands; the whole point is apple made it _easy_. other people aren't masochists like you, so they don't like to power through the pure pain of technology like you do.) and let us not forget that apple creates beautiful products. sure, they're overpriced. but apple is smart enough to know that overpricing can help you as much as it hurts you, _if_ you are capable of delivering the highest-quality experience, and apple is, because they actually work on that experience... apple cares about the interaction of a person with a product, and their attention to detail in this matter makes 'em special. and yes, it certainly helps that apple has a lot of money to spend on advertising. heck, they kept billboard companies alive during the first half of the last decade, they sure did... in a nutshell, apple made the mp3 player people wanted to buy. and then they did the same thing when it came to the iphone... they reworked the smart-phone _entirely_, from top to bottom. they realized that display-size was all-important, so they made the display the full phone face, relegating buttons to software... they made that display a touch-screen, and then programmed an operating system that enabled an interface based on finger touch. and once we saw how it _should_ have been done from the start, we knew it instinctively and immediately, and everything changed. to call this "clever packaging" _could_ be considered an insult, except that it's just so brain-dead _stupid_ that it becomes an indication that the person using the phrase might just be insane. or be suffering from a very high fever. (do you feel ok, walter?) it took a lot of hard work and some very intelligent engineering to make a touch interface for a smart-phone, but apple did it... and people stood in line to buy it, stood in line for _months_... and apple packed plenty of other goodies into that little package, enough so app developers could build hundreds of thousands of useful and entertaining tools, and a whole bunch of fart apps too. moreover, apple negotiated a deal with a greedy-assed carrier to get unlimited bandwidth, precisely because they knew that their offer of "the internet in your pocket" was a _sincere_ one, one that people would actually _use_, and they were looking to protect their customers from the customary carrier rape charges. yeah, sure, some phones had "internet" checked on a feature-list before the iphone came along, but none of those phones had the kind of browser that the iphone has, or gave the same experience. they were confined to this mickey-mouse "mobile web" that had mickey-mouse text menus that were reminiscent of the 1970s... meanwhile, apple invented an interface that was so intuitive that people learned it by watching 30-second television commercials. and yes, it was a good thing that apple had lots of money so they could run lots of those commercials, and run them lots of times... but believe me, if you don't have the goods to back up your ads, you'd just be throwing away your money by running those ads... apple had the goods to back up their ads. apple is often first, but being first is not important to apple... what is important to apple is that they be the one that _lasts_. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From desrod at gnu-designs.com Wed Jan 27 12:38:18 2010 From: desrod at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:38:18 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Complaints received so far: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Michael S. Hart wrote: > No Adobe Flash > No Camera > No VOIP [Skype, Vonage, etc] > No battery swapping!!! > No outboard memory!!! > No comment on bundling data plans > No mention of resolution levels It's from Apple... you expected more? Historically they've always released products with proprietary implementations, to ensure everyone comes back to the same trough for more. This is no different from an iPod or an iPhone or a MacBook Air from a vendor lock-in and entry-level technology perspective. Nothing revolutionary to see here.. They'll use it as a vehicle to drive more traffic through the AppStore. From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Jan 27 12:38:52 2010 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:38:52 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Complaints received so far: Message-ID: <3a144.5d10f9d4.3891fe5c@aol.com> anything said about sync capability between the ipad and your computer and your iphone? -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcello at perathoner.de Wed Jan 27 12:40:52 2010 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:40:52 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Formats and gripes In-Reply-To: References: <20100124200541.GH27785@pglaf.org> Message-ID: <4B60A4D4.8050701@perathoner.de> James Adcock wrote: >> But we do host them...it's just that we're generating them on demand, > which has numerous practical benefits for the producers, and is close > to transparent for the human readers. > > Three problems with the "on demand" approach [which in general I like] > > 1) It doesn't do the "spine" stuff right like TOC and covers. It builds the TOC from your HTML headers. If the TOC doesn't come out right its because your HTML header structure is a mess. > 2) If the "on demand" has problems with the generated results you ought to > let people submit versions of those file formats that do work, and those > submissions ought to override the "on demand" stuff until if and when the > "on demand" version gets fixed. That's another (binary) file for the WWers to maintain ... A better solution is to repost a HTML file that works. Convert to XHTML 1.1 and leave fancy formatting out. > 3) It would be nice if you could provide a version of your conversion tools > to PG "authors" so that they could work to make the submitted HTML work > correctly with the conversion tools. Right now we "authors" are guestimating > to the results of the "on demand" outputs by cross-compiling the HTML to > EPUB and MOBI using one of a variety of non-PG conversion tools -- and then > submitting the HTML to PG when that works -- which seems kind of silly given > that we are actually targeting the unseen PG tools. http://www.gutenberg.org/tools/epubmaker-0.02-preview-2009-11-26.tgz -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Jan 27 12:43:15 2010 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:43:15 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Complaints received so far: Message-ID: <3a3e7.cf1ccd5.3891ff63@aol.com> david said: > Nothing revolutionary to see here.. see? what a pile of crap! apple is reinventing the computer experience, right under his nose, and david insists there is "nothing revolutionary to see here"... david must be blind. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dakretz at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 12:52:27 2010 From: dakretz at gmail.com (don kretz) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:52:27 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Complaints received so far: In-Reply-To: <3a3e7.cf1ccd5.3891ff63@aol.com> References: <3a3e7.cf1ccd5.3891ff63@aol.com> Message-ID: <627d59b81001271252r364070edycd802f13eefd9af6@mail.gmail.com> Microsoft effectively killed the whole tablet category for years by trying to do it with Windows - the same error they've never overcome with their winphones. Now Apple will be able to revive the tablet by providing the horizontal platform scaling (which Amazon/Sony/etc. can't do). The question remaining is how long it will take for Google to release the equivalent on Android/Chrome. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimad at msn.com Wed Jan 27 14:17:16 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:17:16 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: References: <275.29f5d5c3.38900495@aol.com> Message-ID: >How many iPhones? >1% would be 45 million. . .but that's not what anyone claims. Jobs just stated 75 million (iPhone + iPod Touch) at the iPad announcement - and 12 billion "product downloads." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimad at msn.com Wed Jan 27 14:44:22 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:44:22 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Complaints received so far: In-Reply-To: <3a144.5d10f9d4.3891fe5c@aol.com> References: <3a144.5d10f9d4.3891fe5c@aol.com> Message-ID: They show syncing is permitted using a USB cable - which I don't understand if it has wifi ??? anything said about sync capability between the ipad and your computer and your iphone? -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimad at msn.com Wed Jan 27 14:54:50 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:54:50 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Complaints received so far: In-Reply-To: <3a144.5d10f9d4.3891fe5c@aol.com> References: <3a144.5d10f9d4.3891fe5c@aol.com> Message-ID: Specs are up at: http://www.apple.com/ipad/specs/ which shows display resolution as being 132 dpi, which is more than a netbook, but less than the 150 to 166 dpi of an iPhone or a Kindle or an e-Ink display. One would need to check it out in person to make sure that one is happy with the resolution - some people don't seem to care at all about resolution, other people seem to be very sensitive to it. 10 watt charger is huge power compared to a Kindle, for those people who care about that aspect. They said it supported epub in the announcement, but its not in the specs, so maybe that is only with the iBooks reader app. It would be a bummer if iBooks is a tightly closed app like the nook reader! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimad at msn.com Wed Jan 27 16:45:00 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:45:00 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Formats and gripes In-Reply-To: <4B60A4D4.8050701@perathoner.de> References: <20100124200541.GH27785@pglaf.org> <4B60A4D4.8050701@perathoner.de> Message-ID: >> 1) It doesn't do the "spine" stuff right like TOC and covers. >It builds the TOC from your HTML headers. If the TOC doesn't come out >right its because your HTML header structure is a mess. Sorry, I have yet to see a MOBI or EPUB automatic conversion that actually contains a conforming TOC. Can you give me an example automatic conversion book# that works the way you say it does? From hart at pglaf.org Wed Jan 27 17:07:23 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:07:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] The REAL Question About the iPad. . . . Message-ID: I guess the real question about the iPad is whether it will change tablets, eReaders, etc., in the same manner as iPods changed MP3 players and iPhones changed cellphones. While I do have some MP3 players, and one is even an iPod-- the Third Generation one--I haven't found that iPod changed MP3ness for me at all, other than that the eBook reader app came out only a week after the iPod, which was very cool!!! I'm also not sure the iPhone changed cellphones for me much though I am considering getting one if the new announcement includes iPhones for Verizon, which it appears to be. I am sure the cost will be high to start with, so even if I will get an iPhone it won't be rush right down today. Personally, I thought Blackberry changed cellphones, Nokia, too, and a few others. iPhones and iPods just added "COOL" to the mix, which is fine with me, but I don't know if this really counts as a technological breakthrough, and I do not know if iPhones really were the CAUSE or the EFFECT of this new saturation level of cellphones. Well. . .yes. . .I do know. . . . If you will recall I have been watching cellphone levels as much as I watched disc drive growth, and I predicted that a new kind of cellphone competition would start to take place as soon as the world realized we had passed 50% saturation, and it is all too obvious that the iPhone was the result. Still, I can't fault Steve Jobs for really being the "ONLY" big one who really realized this tipping point was coming! From hart at pglaf.org Wed Jan 27 17:39:04 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:39:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Complaints received so far: In-Reply-To: References: <3a144.5d10f9d4.3891fe5c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, James Adcock wrote: > > Specs are up at: > > ? > > http://www.apple.com/ipad/specs/ > > ? > > which shows display resolution as being 132 dpi, > which is more than a netbook, I just looked up a couple of the Asus eee's, which I use, they ran from 133 dpi to 200 dpi The 200 dpi is the latest and greatest, and I'm not sure, if it really qualifies as a netbook [model 1601]. > but less than the 150 to 166 dpi of an iPhone or a Kindle or an e-Ink > display.? One would need to check it out in person to make sure that one is > happy with the resolution ? some ?people don?t seem to care at all about > resolution, other people seem to be very sensitive to it. I find the resolution on my eee's to be just great, even when I double the strength of my reading glasses to watch something in detail. > 10 watt charger is huge power compared to a Kindle, for those people who care about > that aspect. /what about when the battery dies? > > They said it supported epub in the announcement, but its not in the specs, so maybe > that is only with the iBooks reader app.? It would be a bummer if iBooks is a tightly > closed app like the nook reader! I've already heard the DRM is VERY tight. From hart at pglaf.org Wed Jan 27 17:47:10 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:47:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] iPad Details Message-ID: Height: 9.56 inches (242.8 mm) Width: 7.47 inches (189.7 mm) Depth: 0.5 inch (13.4 mm) Weight: 1.5 pounds (.68 kg) Wi-Fi model; 1.6 pounds (.73 kg) Wi-Fi + 3G model Display * 9.7-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen Multi-Touch display with IPS technology * 1024-by-768-pixel resolution at 132 pixels per inch (ppi) It will play .wav files!!! Supposedly NOT plain text file!!! iPad embodies Apples continuing environmental progress. It is designed with the following features to reduce environmental impact: * Arsenic-free display glass * BFR-free * Mercury-free LCD display * PVC-free * Recyclable aluminum and glass enclosure Environmental requirements * Operating temperature: 32 to 95 F (0 to 35 C) * Nonoperating temperature: -4 to 113 F (-20 to 45 C) * Relative humidity: 5% to 95% noncondensing * Maximum operating altitude: 10,000 feet (3000 m) It might not work too well in places I used to work, such as Chimney Park, Wyoming. . . . From hart at pglaf.org Wed Jan 27 17:52:07 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:52:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] More iPad details Message-ID: Mail attachment support * Viewable document types: .jpg, .tiff, .gif (images); .doc and .docx (Microsoft Word); .htm and .html (web pages); .key (Keynote); .numbers (Numbers); .pages (Pages); .pdf (Preview and Adobe Acrobat); .ppt and .pptx (Microsoft PowerPoint); .txt (text); .rtf (rich text format); .vcf (contact information); .xls and .xlsx (Microsoft Excel) Languages * Language support for English, French, German, Japanese, Dutch, Italian, Spanish, Simplified Chinese, Russian * Keyboard support for English (US) English (UK), French (France, Canada), German, Japanese (QWERTY), Dutch, Flemish, Spanish, Italian, Simplified Chinese (Handwriting and Pinyin), Russian * Dictionary support for English (US), English (UK), French, French (Canadian), French (Swiss), German, Japanese, Dutch, Flemish, Spanish, Italian, Simplified Chinese (Handwriting, Pinyin), Russian Accessibility * Support for playback of closed-captioned content * VoiceOver screen reader * Full-screen zoom magnification * White on black * Mono audio I guess you could read .txt files in your email!!! Supported as above. "VoiceOver" Screen Reader? From hart at pglaf.org Wed Jan 27 17:54:18 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:54:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: References: <275.29f5d5c3.38900495@aol.com> Message-ID: What's the split between iPod and iPhone? I'll bet more iPods. If twice as many, then 25 million iPhones. I heard there were 20 million a few months ago, so that sounds about right. . . . Any hard data? On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, James Adcock wrote: > > >How many iPhones? > > >1% would be 45 million. . .but that's not what anyone claims. > > Jobs just stated 75 million (iPhone + iPod Touch) at the iPad announcement ? and 12 > billion ?product downloads.? > > > From hart at pglaf.org Wed Jan 27 17:56:35 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:56:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Complaints received so far: In-Reply-To: <627d59b81001271252r364070edycd802f13eefd9af6@mail.gmail.com> References: <3a3e7.cf1ccd5.3891ff63@aol.com> <627d59b81001271252r364070edycd802f13eefd9af6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, don kretz wrote: > Microsoft effectively killed the whole tablet category for years by trying to do it > with Windows - the same error they've never overcome with their winphones.? > Now Apple will be able to revive the tablet by providing the horizontal platform > scaling (which Amazon/Sony/etc. can't do). > The question remaining is how long it will take for Google to release the equivalent on > Android/Chrome. I'll bet at least 2011. . . . From hart at pglaf.org Wed Jan 27 18:05:57 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:05:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] More iPad Complaints Message-ID: >From Ohio: No camera was a killer non-app No outboard flash was a killer non-app No outboard drives was a killer non-app No DRM free options was a killer. . . . Lots of reasons this person won't buy one. From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Jan 27 20:15:54 2010 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 23:15:54 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: The REAL Question About the iPad. . . . Message-ID: <48611.15692a26.3892697a@aol.com> michael said: > I am considering getting one > if the new announcement > includes iPhones for Verizon if you don't have one by this summer, and you'd settle for a first-gen iphone, i will have one i can give you for free... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dakretz at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 20:28:54 2010 From: dakretz at gmail.com (don kretz) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:28:54 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Complaints received so far: In-Reply-To: References: <3a3e7.cf1ccd5.3891ff63@aol.com> <627d59b81001271252r364070edycd802f13eefd9af6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <627d59b81001272028g7d684cd6v2e64312bad4b4aa3@mail.gmail.com> Third-hand information (from Civic(?) via BBC): The Cinic report said 117.6 million people accessed the internet using their > mobile phones last year, ... and growing at over 40%/yr. I wonder what kind of phones those would be? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dakretz at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 20:30:09 2010 From: dakretz at gmail.com (don kretz) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:30:09 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Complaints received so far: In-Reply-To: <627d59b81001272028g7d684cd6v2e64312bad4b4aa3@mail.gmail.com> References: <3a3e7.cf1ccd5.3891ff63@aol.com> <627d59b81001271252r364070edycd802f13eefd9af6@mail.gmail.com> <627d59b81001272028g7d684cd6v2e64312bad4b4aa3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <627d59b81001272030y249f218cyd8d4899e33da304d@mail.gmail.com> Oh - that was about China. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bowerbird at aol.com Wed Jan 27 20:30:00 2010 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 23:30:00 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Details Message-ID: <48aa5.268ffb56.38926cc8@aol.com> michael said: > Supposedly NOT plain text file!!! don't forget that the thing runs iphone apps. so the eucalyptus app -- which pulls down plain-text files from project gutenberg and formats them, quite nicely, on the fly -- will run on the ipad just fine, along with all the other e-reader apps, like stanza... don't get too wrapped up in what "native" apple-supplied apps will (or will not) do... > What's the split between iPod and iPhone? don't get tripped up in all the terminology. there are 250 million ipods out in the world. those are just music-players. they don't count. there are 75 million iphone/itouch machines... the "itouch" is also called "an ipod touch", and it's basically an iphone without the phone part. (and yes, every iphone has an ipod in it as well.) i think the basic split is 50 million _iphones_ and 25 million _itouch_ machines, but the itouch trend line is even steeper than iphone. *** michael said: > From Ohio: > > > No camera was a killer non-app > > No outboard flash was a killer non-app > > No outboard drives was a killer non-app > > No DRM free options was a killer. . . . > > Lots of reasons this person won't buy one. as usual, the people who do not buy a product do not matter. it's the people who _do_ buy it -- especially the _number_ of people who buy it, and what they think after using it -- that matters... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ke at gnu.franken.de Wed Jan 27 21:19:00 2010 From: ke at gnu.franken.de (Karl Eichwalder) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 06:19:00 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Formats and gripes In-Reply-To: <4B60A4D4.8050701@perathoner.de> (Marcello Perathoner's message of "Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:40:52 +0100") References: <20100124200541.GH27785@pglaf.org> <4B60A4D4.8050701@perathoner.de> Message-ID: Marcello Perathoner writes: > A better solution is to repost a HTML file that works. Convert to > XHTML 1.1 and leave fancy formatting out. That's a rather important issue. Often even justification hurts. Line width of ebook readers is limited and acceptable justification is not possible in most cases. That's esp. true for German texts. -- Karl Eichwalder From marcello at perathoner.de Wed Jan 27 23:20:17 2010 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 08:20:17 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Formats and gripes In-Reply-To: References: <20100124200541.GH27785@pglaf.org> <4B60A4D4.8050701@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <4B613AB1.4020302@perathoner.de> Jim Adcock wrote: >>> 1) It doesn't do the "spine" stuff right like TOC and covers. > >> It builds the TOC from your HTML headers. If the TOC doesn't come out >> right its because your HTML header structure is a mess. > > Sorry, I have yet to see a MOBI or EPUB automatic conversion that actually > contains a conforming TOC. Can you give me an example automatic conversion > book# that works the way you say it does? Give me an example where the HTML headers are structured well and the TOC comes out wrong. I mean this way: h1 Title by Author h2 Chapter 1 h2 Chapter 2 If the TOCs are all messed up its the fault of DP: They use headers everywhere they need a bigger font. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From schultzk at uni-trier.de Wed Jan 27 23:54:44 2010 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Keith J. Schultz) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 08:54:44 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Holst's Planets In-Reply-To: <4B607F96.8090007@perathoner.de> References: <1aa88.64e33310.388a65b1@aol.com> <4B596E9A.2040504@xs4all.nl> <4B5CB71A.6070003@xs4all.nl> <4B5D45A6.4030707@perathoner.de> <66A02F53-EAF9-4CEE-B67B-24FE4445DBE7@uni-trier.de> <4B5DD83A.2010203@perathoner.de> <4B5F379F.90506@perathoner.de> <4B607F96.8090007@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <085161F8-07B8-422A-8C3B-9BB232139DA8@uni-trier.de> Hi Marcello, Am 27.01.2010 um 19:01 schrieb Marcello Perathoner: > Keith J. Schultz wrote: >> Hi Marcello, >> I said non SIM-Locked. Apple will directly sell you one if a vendor >> will refers you to them. There are other vendors are offering them, >> too. How they get them I can not say. I believe the import them from >> other countries. > > If I can get an unlocked phone only if I subscribe to a 24-month plan, then where's the difference? What would I do with the plan I just subscribed to? Stick the card in my stamp collection and pay EUR 50 a month for that? At least you have a iPhone. But, What are you going to do with an iPhone without a telephone service? If you do not need a telephone get an iTouch or now and iPad! Then again, the carriers here are more than willing to give rebates on your plans if you tell them you want the iPhone, you only need to pay for the iPhone from a dealer. There are also agents that will do the same. AND you do get a non SIM-lock iPhone. It is not that Apple sells only SIM-Lock iPhones! > > I don't want a gray import or a phone bought hundreds of miles away in a foreign country. I want a phone with 2 years legal warranty that, if it breaks down, I can bring to a shop in the town I live and have it replaced on the spot or get my money back like I'm entitled according to European law. From what I heard these are legal! There is no german law forbidding the sale of these iPhones. Only service providers can not sell them directly. I am not hundreds of miles away in a foreign country. For you, Yes. But that is your problem. > And, because I get around a lot, I want a phone I can use with any provider in Europe, prepaid or postpaid or without any card at all. The only way to use a Phone with a card is if you use Wi-Fi. Like I said these iPhones are NOT SIM-LOCK so no problem using them as a telephone. I have only seen postpaid cards or plans for dataplans. Here is a question: Would AT&T unlock a iPhone if you to?d them you are going to Europe and want to take it along? Problem solved if you are willing to go with AT&T. I am pretty sure the markets will be opening up. soon. Then I am sure the iPhones will really, take off. regards Keith. From schultzk at uni-trier.de Wed Jan 27 23:59:31 2010 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Keith J. Schultz) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 08:59:31 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: MORE Re: New "iPad" From Apple In-Reply-To: References: <2510ddab1001271113n6a26b4a3vf74d219c88d1f253@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <704AA65D-B415-41B3-A315-BC6E01CDBE39@uni-trier.de> Hi All, Am 27.01.2010 um 20:27 schrieb Michael S. Hart: > > > CORRECTION: The finally mentioned 3G, but not 4G 4G never heard of that. Is that HS.... ? I have 3.5G more than 7Mb/s. regards Keith. From schultzk at uni-trier.de Thu Jan 28 02:54:54 2010 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Keith J. Schultz) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:54:54 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Complaints received so far: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496F85DC-C9E0-4D21-A6A8-5593B61BFFFB@uni-trier.de> Hi David, Everbody, Vendor locked In ? It is unlocked so just get a data plan stick it in and your off! Or just use Wifi. Want other content from other vendors load'em on to your computer --> put into iTunes and sync. I am sure apps will follow. As for VOIP be careful most carriers do not allow it!! 64 GB is quite alot. What I notice was that there seemed to be three slots on the side that look like USB slots!! Maybe something is comming!?? May have to wiat for X-Mas for more advanced features!! What machine that size has that many pixels. Actually, it has plenty. I would have hoped for external DVD-drive. Who knows? regards Keith. Am 27.01.2010 um 21:38 schrieb David A. Desrosiers: > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Michael S. Hart wrote: >> No Adobe Flash >> No Camera >> No VOIP [Skype, Vonage, etc] >> No battery swapping!!! >> No outboard memory!!! >> No comment on bundling data plans >> No mention of resolution levels > > It's from Apple... you expected more? > > Historically they've always released products with proprietary > implementations, to ensure everyone comes back to the same trough for > more. > > This is no different from an iPod or an iPhone or a MacBook Air from a > vendor lock-in and entry-level technology perspective. > > Nothing revolutionary to see here.. They'll use it as a vehicle to > drive more traffic through the AppStore. > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d From schultzk at uni-trier.de Thu Jan 28 02:55:37 2010 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Keith J. Schultz) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:55:37 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Complaints received so far: In-Reply-To: <3a144.5d10f9d4.3891fe5c@aol.com> References: <3a144.5d10f9d4.3891fe5c@aol.com> Message-ID: <7CB1CD32-91F4-494C-8EB1-7A0AE7C90075@uni-trier.de> Hi BB, iTunes. Am 27.01.2010 um 21:38 schrieb Bowerbird at aol.com: > anything said about sync capability between > the ipad and your computer and your iphone? > > -bowerbird > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schultzk at uni-trier.de Thu Jan 28 03:00:45 2010 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Keith J. Schultz) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:00:45 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <693460A4-BC9A-4080-A98C-BDF17FB5C201@uni-trier.de> Am 28.01.2010 um 02:47 schrieb Michael S. Hart: > > > It will play .wav files!!! > > Supposedly NOT plain text file!!! Not quite! for 9.99. You get Pages. It handles plain text files and word files. [snip, snip] > > It might not work too well in places I used to work, > such as Chimney Park, Wyoming. . . . If you iPod works most likely the iPad will, too. regards Keith. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pterandon at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 04:12:18 2010 From: pterandon at gmail.com (Greg M. Johnson) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 07:12:18 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Epub vs. Android Message-ID: This may be a device discussion, but it could tie in to an issue of varying "features" (if "quality" were too pejorative a term) of epub items in the PG collection. I've on occasion downloaded one or two epub books from PG directly from the web page, using the phone. I then use Astro to move the file around to the appropriate directory, and had success with Aldiko or FBreader seeing the files. That is, seeing the full file info, complete with the author showing up under author list, and having access to all of the tags. {Let me make an aside that this is one of the joys of the electronic age: I was once stuck with my family at a drive-in restaurant, and five minutes after I had the idea, I was reading them Jules Verne off my phone!} Then I got greedy. I downloaded a large handful of epub's on a PC, and moved them over to the appropriate directory. Now for most of them, Neither see the tags, Aldiko only sees the author, and FBreader doesn't even see the title! It's just "pgxxx.epub". Are there "individual design decisions" that influence how much information gets embedded in any particular epub file that gets produced? I think if someone were to want only one ebook, tags don't matter, but if someone is going to have more than five, it is a problem. Granted, one had too many redundant tags, but the title and author should be locatable. Or is it the software's fault? Maybe we need someone to be a curator of some of the best epub books in the collection. -- Greg M. Johnson http://pterandon.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From desrod at gnu-designs.com Thu Jan 28 04:20:14 2010 From: desrod at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 07:20:14 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Complaints received so far: In-Reply-To: <627d59b81001271252r364070edycd802f13eefd9af6@mail.gmail.com> References: <3a3e7.cf1ccd5.3891ff63@aol.com> <627d59b81001271252r364070edycd802f13eefd9af6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 3:52 PM, don kretz wrote: > The question remaining is how long it will take for Google to release the > equivalent on Android/Chrome. The Nook, Que and Alex all run on Android... From desrod at gnu-designs.com Thu Jan 28 04:25:26 2010 From: desrod at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 07:25:26 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: MORE Re: New "iPad" From Apple In-Reply-To: <704AA65D-B415-41B3-A315-BC6E01CDBE39@uni-trier.de> References: <2510ddab1001271113n6a26b4a3vf74d219c88d1f253@mail.gmail.com> <704AA65D-B415-41B3-A315-BC6E01CDBE39@uni-trier.de> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 2:59 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote: > ?4G never heard of that. Is that HS.... ? I have 3.5G > ? ? ? ?more than 7Mb/s. 4G is like 3G that goes to 11 :) From hart at pglaf.org Thu Jan 28 07:52:48 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 07:52:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Complaints received so far: In-Reply-To: <496F85DC-C9E0-4D21-A6A8-5593B61BFFFB@uni-trier.de> References: <496F85DC-C9E0-4D21-A6A8-5593B61BFFFB@uni-trier.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jan 2010, Keith J. Schultz wrote: > > 64 GB is quite alot. yes, it was. . .until I filled it up. . . . now I wish I had bought several at that price. . . . From jimad at msn.com Thu Jan 28 08:01:42 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 08:01:42 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Complaints received so far: In-Reply-To: References: <3a144.5d10f9d4.3891fe5c@aol.com> Message-ID: >I've already heard the DRM is VERY tight. Don't care much about the DRM as long as they offer a wifi approach to loading "personal" documents aka "public domain" or non-DRM. It would be a bummer if they claim "epub" but then it turns out they use a proprietary DRM for epub so there is no choice of where one can buy one's commercial epub books. Nook for example has a great wifi but you can't use it to load your personal documents onto the Nook -- you have to USB them. USB gets tiresome once you hook up your ebook reader for literally the 1000+ time. I am suspicious, as you suggest, that iPad will also have this restriction -- in that they already showed that one has to use USB to sync to your other Apple devices. Hopefully there can be or will be a third party competitor for the iBooks app. From hart at pglaf.org Thu Jan 28 08:16:17 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 08:16:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: The REAL Question About the iPad. . . . In-Reply-To: <48611.15692a26.3892697a@aol.com> References: <48611.15692a26.3892697a@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jan 2010, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > michael said: > >?? I am considering getting one > >?? if the new announcement > >?? includes iPhones for Verizon > > if you don't have one by this summer, > and you'd settle for a first-gen iphone, > i will have one i can give you for free... > > -bowerbird > > I'd love it, even just to see the differences!!! Any time you're ready!!! Many thanks!!! me From jimad at msn.com Thu Jan 28 08:28:29 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 08:28:29 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The weight at 1.5 pounds (0.7 kilograms) is impressive, comparing to 1.2 pounds (0.5 kilograms) for the Kindle DX. [0.6 pounds (0.3 kilograms) for the much smaller Kindle 2] So at least this thing with be "reasonable" to hold -- as opposed to netbooks which weigh about 3 pounds (1.4 kilograms). From jimad at msn.com Thu Jan 28 08:42:23 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 08:42:23 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: More iPad details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > "VoiceOver" Screen Reader? Not too sure what they mean by that. The Kindles have taken heat and basically gotten drop-kicked off campuses for lacking basic "accessibility" features such as having the built-in text-to-speech be able to speak the operating system part of the display. So, for example, in theory a blind or restricted sight student could "read a book" using the Kindles text-to-speech -- except such a student has no way to navigate the Kindle to select that book to be read in the first place! And increasingly publishers are denying screen reader access to their books due to the "audible books" licensing problem. "Accessibility" is such a standard part of modern computer design that I would have a hard time believing that Apple would screw the pooch on that one, but then the question becomes one of licensing of the books re text-to-speech on the part of the publishers -- which then runs into the audible books buzzsaw that Amazon ran into. You would think that someone, Congress maybe, would step into this mess and mandate "accessibility" of e-books -- at least for those citizens reasonably requiring this feature -- certainly low-sighted people, but then the issue becomes do you allow access to those claiming dyslexia for example? From jimad at msn.com Thu Jan 28 08:58:37 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 08:58:37 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Formats and gripes In-Reply-To: References: <20100124200541.GH27785@pglaf.org> <4B60A4D4.8050701@perathoner.de> Message-ID: I'm not talking about "fancy formatting" -- I'm talking about "basic formatting" -- html to epub and mobi converter software all seems to differ in terms of how much vertical whitespace gets inserted where such that even the most basic stuff ends up ugly. Not that HTML browsers are *totally* immune to this problem either. From jimad at msn.com Thu Jan 28 09:10:11 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:10:11 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Formats and gripes In-Reply-To: <4B613AB1.4020302@perathoner.de> References: <20100124200541.GH27785@pglaf.org> <4B60A4D4.8050701@perathoner.de> <4B613AB1.4020302@perathoner.de> Message-ID: >If the TOCs are all messed up its the fault of DP: They use headers everywhere they need a bigger font. Sorry, we are talking past each other -- I have yet to see a PG epub or mobi file which even has a TOC -- its not a question of whether or not that TOC is any good. Here's what I mean: I take my epub or mobi reader software, I push the dedicated button on that software to take me to the TOC. Does pushing that button take me to the TOC in a PG epub or mobi file? No. Why not? The epub or mobi file doesn't actually contain a TOC. It may contain TEXT somewhere inside the doc that says "Table of Contents", but in an epub or mobi file that is not the same thing as actually having a TOC. In a conforming mobi or epub file the TOC is specified in the "spine" file, not in the text contents file. Again, am I missing something, or can you show me ANY automatically generated PG epub or mobi file where pushing the "TOC" button on my epub or mobi reader software actually takes me to the TOC? From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Jan 28 10:16:14 2010 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:16:14 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Epub vs. Android In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B61D46E.8090903@perathoner.de> Greg M. Johnson wrote: > Are there "individual design decisions" that influence how much information gets > embedded in any particular epub file that gets produced? I think if someone > were to want only one ebook, tags don't matter, but if someone is going to have > more than five, it is a problem. Granted, one had too many redundant tags, but > the title and author should be locatable. Or is it the software's fault? We embed all information we have at the time of generation. Which epub does not display correctly? -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Jan 28 10:20:11 2010 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:20:11 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Formats and gripes In-Reply-To: References: <20100124200541.GH27785@pglaf.org> <4B60A4D4.8050701@perathoner.de> <4B613AB1.4020302@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <4B61D55B.8010405@perathoner.de> Jim Adcock wrote: > Again, am I missing something, or can you show me ANY automatically > generated PG epub or mobi file where pushing the "TOC" button on my epub or > mobi reader software actually takes me to the TOC? ALL PG epub files have a TOC. Unzip them and look for a file toc.ncx. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From hart at pglaf.org Thu Jan 28 10:51:57 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:51:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jan 2010, Jim Adcock wrote: > The weight at 1.5 pounds (0.7 kilograms) is impressive, comparing to 1.2 > pounds (0.5 kilograms) for the Kindle DX. [0.6 pounds (0.3 kilograms) for > the much smaller Kindle 2] So at least this thing with be "reasonable" to > hold -- as opposed to netbooks which weigh about 3 pounds (1.4 kilograms). My netbooks weigh 2.2 pounds, and there are times when I wish they weighed a bit more, and they don't weigh enough to adjust the screen one-handedly. I'm presuming when you have the cover on the iPad it weighs the same, and it's cute because you can use it as a kind of picture frame. . . . I didn't see the price or weight, etc., but it seems obvious that if you buy the full boat iPads with keyboard and cover it's well over $1,000. However, I can tell you I would certainly buy the keyboard, and probably the cover, too. MEANWHILE!!! I've been wondering what happened to ye olde PALM/TARGUS foldup keyboards? I would LOVE to pay the full $99 for a USB version I could plug into my netbooks, PCs, Macs, and all other USB keyboard slots!!!!!!!! Any help? Any adaptors for USB from their Palm docks??? Many thanks!!! Michael From walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl Thu Jan 28 12:39:28 2010 From: walter.van.holst at xs4all.nl (Walter van Holst) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:39:28 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Transferring PG files from PC to iPod In-Reply-To: <4B5DEAAB.8030606@joeysmith.com> References: <0E124B4276624E3F9584AAC106DF35DB@alp2400> <4B5DEAAB.8030606@joeysmith.com> Message-ID: <4B61F600.2090702@xs4all.nl> On 1/25/10 8:02 PM, Joey Smith wrote: > I'm not much of a user of Apple's products, but my wife uses an > application called "Stanza" to share ebooks between our desktop and her > iPhone, and she seems quite enamoured with it. Stanza on the iPhone is great. Especially in combination with Feedbook, which provides proper formatting for many Gutenberg etexts. Regards, Walter From sly at victoria.tc.ca Thu Jan 28 13:14:31 2010 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:14:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Transferring PG files from PC to iPod In-Reply-To: <4B61F600.2090702@xs4all.nl> References: <0E124B4276624E3F9584AAC106DF35DB@alp2400> <4B5DEAAB.8030606@joeysmith.com> <4B61F600.2090702@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I was impressed with Stanza when I saw that it appears to use utf-8 when available. I could pull up a text from Project Gutenberg in Esperanto and see the correct accents without needing to do anything different on my part. --Andrew On Thu, 28 Jan 2010, Walter van Holst wrote: > On 1/25/10 8:02 PM, Joey Smith wrote: > > > I'm not much of a user of Apple's products, but my wife uses an > > application called "Stanza" to share ebooks between our desktop and her > > iPhone, and she seems quite enamoured with it. > > Stanza on the iPhone is great. Especially in combination with Feedbook, > which provides proper formatting for many Gutenberg etexts. > > Regards, > > Walter From marcello at perathoner.de Thu Jan 28 13:30:11 2010 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 22:30:11 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] New PG search engine alpha test Message-ID: <4B6201E3.9090004@perathoner.de> Please test the new search engine at: http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/search It provides a 'mobileOK' view, to use on mobile phones. It also provides an OPDS catalog view for Stanza. "In Stanza 1.5, you can add a new catalog by going to the "Online Catalog" section and tapping the "+" button, where you can enter the name and URL of you catalog to add." -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org From Bowerbird at aol.com Thu Jan 28 21:12:00 2010 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 00:12:00 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Transferring PG files from PC to iPod Message-ID: <219d8.7337795e.3893c820@aol.com> walter said: > Stanza on the iPhone is great. Especially in combination with Feedbook, > which provides proper formatting for many Gutenberg etexts. stanza is ok. and feedbook is very good. but something about these sentences still rubs me the wrong way. i think it's the notion that "proper formatting" can be defined well. (to that end, perhaps you'd like to give us your definition, walter.) or perhaps it's the feeling that you probably haven't yet examined enough feedbook e-books to gauge its quality with much accuracy. or maybe it's the knowledge that feedbooks has likely cherrypicked the easiest books to format, and left the difficult ones for a later day. at any rate, i would encourage you to spend the mere $10 and buy the iphone app "eucalyptus", which pulls from the entire (english) project gutenberg catalog, and provides nice formatting (defined as "it looks nice", which implies that it is "proper" formatting as well), while using the plain-text files obtained _directly_ from p.g. itself. (feedbooks starts with p.g. files, but massages them to put them into its proprietary database. which is probably why it has only done about 15% of the project gutenberg catalog, at my last check.) *** andrew said: > I was impressed with Stanza when I saw that it appears to use utf-8 really? that's all it takes to "impress" you, is the use of utf8? you're not too hard to please... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schultzk at uni-trier.de Thu Jan 28 23:06:04 2010 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Keith J. Schultz) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 08:06:04 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Transferring PG files from PC to iPod In-Reply-To: <219d8.7337795e.3893c820@aol.com> References: <219d8.7337795e.3893c820@aol.com> Message-ID: Am 29.01.2010 um 06:12 schrieb Bowerbird at aol.com: > walter said: > > Stanza on the iPhone is great. Especially in combination with Feedbook, > > which provides proper formatting for many Gutenberg etexts. > > stanza is ok. and feedbook is very good. > > but something about these sentences still rubs me the wrong way. Too Bad for You. > > i think it's the notion that "proper formatting" can be defined well. > (to that end, perhaps you'd like to give us your definition, walter.) [snip, snip] > at any rate, i would encourage you to spend the mere $10 and buy > the iphone app "eucalyptus", which pulls from the entire (english) > project gutenberg catalog, and provides nice formatting (defined as > "it looks nice", which implies that it is "proper" formatting as well), > while using the plain-text files obtained _directly_ from p.g. itself. Sure English great. What about Esperanza, German, etc ... In somebody#s definition that makes eucalyptus a non-app and a piece of ... [snip, snip] andrew said: > > > I was impressed with Stanza when I saw that it appears to use utf-8 > > really? that's all it takes to "impress" you, is the use of utf8? > you're not too hard to please... Does eucalyptus handle utf-8. OH. it uses plain text !!! What a piece of ... Sorry, BB I think You did not due Walter and Andrew justice. They did not attack anyone and just stated their views. You could have just have just mention the advantages of eucalyptus. But, why be so sarcastic here. Just for the record I do not have either apps nor a iPod touch, just two iPods classic. ;-))) regards Keith. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schultzk at uni-trier.de Thu Jan 28 23:30:39 2010 From: schultzk at uni-trier.de (Keith J. Schultz) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 08:30:39 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: More iPad details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jim, I find your argument mute. As most computers are not design for the blind or sight impair. Sure they can be modified for use with the blind. The Kindle or iPad are not meant for use of the blind or sight impair. The speech-to-text capablities are more a gimmick and just allow for someone to hear the text while doing something else. Now real invention would be a touch screen with tactile feedback. That would really help the blind and sight impaired. I know such screens are technically possible, but I assume that it is not profitable to put them into computer screens. regards Keith. Am 28.01.2010 um 17:42 schrieb Jim Adcock: >> "VoiceOver" Screen Reader? > > Not too sure what they mean by that. The Kindles have taken heat and > basically gotten drop-kicked off campuses for lacking basic "accessibility" > features such as having the built-in text-to-speech be able to speak the > operating system part of the display. So, for example, in theory a blind or > restricted sight student could "read a book" using the Kindles > text-to-speech -- except such a student has no way to navigate the Kindle to > select that book to be read in the first place! And increasingly publishers > are denying screen reader access to their books due to the "audible books" > licensing problem. > > "Accessibility" is such a standard part of modern computer design that I > would have a hard time believing that Apple would screw the pooch on that > one, but then the question becomes one of licensing of the books re > text-to-speech on the part of the publishers -- which then runs into the > audible books buzzsaw that Amazon ran into. You would think that someone, > Congress maybe, would step into this mess and mandate "accessibility" of > e-books -- at least for those citizens reasonably requiring this feature -- > certainly low-sighted people, but then the issue becomes do you allow access > to those claiming dyslexia for example? > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d From sly at victoria.tc.ca Fri Jan 29 08:08:12 2010 From: sly at victoria.tc.ca (Andrew Sly) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 08:08:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Transferring PG files from PC to iPod In-Reply-To: <219d8.7337795e.3893c820@aol.com> References: <219d8.7337795e.3893c820@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: > > andrew said: > > I was impressed with Stanza when I saw that it appears to use utf-8 > > really? that's all it takes to "impress" you, is the use of utf8? > you're not too hard to please... > Perhaps let me rephrase: That is one thing I was impressed by. And why? Because many other sites that reuse PG texts appear to not realize that different character encodings exist, or just don't want to deal with them. -Andrew From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Jan 29 09:33:11 2010 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 12:33:11 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Transferring PG files from PC to iPod Message-ID: keith said: > Sorry, BB I think You did not due Walter and Andrew justice. > They did not attack anyone and just stated their views. > You could have just have just mention the advantages of > eucalyptus. But, why be so sarcastic here.? hey, back off, keith, now. i didn't "attack" anyone, not by any stretch of the imagination. i just disagreed with something walter said. or, more specifically, i asked for clarification, and registered a few counter-thoughts... and i don't appreciate it when people mistake my motives and then mischaracterize them as if they had some handle on them. you've made a mistake here, keith, a bad mistake, and if i were the whining kind, i'd probably demand some kind of apology, but as it is, i'm just warning you to stop making that mistake... > You could have just have just mention the advantages of > eucalyptus. But, why be so sarcastic here.? i _did_ mention the "advantage" of eucalyptus, nice formatting. but that just introduces the same question i asked about stanza, namely, "what is it that _constitutes_ nice and proper formatting?" this is a good question, one that really _needs_ to be asked, so that we can then go on and ask more sophisticated questions, such as "how do we apply that formatting?", and "what kind of rule-set is eucalyptus following in order to apply its formatting?", and so on. as it is, though, as evidenced by the mess of formats coming out of d.p., there is a wide range of "formatting" that _could_ be considered "proper", so it's rather meaningless when someone refers to "proper formatting", and it's good to know that. it doesn't mean they are "wrong", but it _does_ mean that we are justified in asking them precisely what _they_ mean by the term... and further, there is no "sarcasm" here. i'm plenty capable of being sarcastic it, it's something i do often, and fairly well, although there probably isn't much "honor" in that performance in most eyes, but there's no reason to think that everything that i do is "sarcastic"... if you pay any attention at all, it should be quite easy to see when i am being sarcastic and when i'm not. so keith, _pay_attention_, at least if you're going to make commentary. also, i'm not sure if eucalyptus uses the utf8 version of files or not. plain-text doesn't rule out an encoding -- or even utf8 -- you know. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bowerbird at aol.com Fri Jan 29 09:34:59 2010 From: Bowerbird at aol.com (Bowerbird at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 12:34:59 EST Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: More iPad details Message-ID: jim said: > You would think that someone, Congress maybe, would > step into this mess and mandate "accessibility" of e-books they just did. of course, making it stick is another matter entirely... -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dakretz at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 09:40:55 2010 From: dakretz at gmail.com (don kretz) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 09:40:55 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: More iPad details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <627d59b81001290940q58464655n51e14df6fbd06939@mail.gmail.com> I have a sight-impaired friend who would appreciate having one of those Kindles drop-kicked in his direction. He figures he can deal with the buttons somehow. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimad at msn.com Fri Jan 29 11:48:29 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 11:48:29 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I've been wondering what happened to ye olde PALM/TARGUS foldup keyboards? Try re Palm $18: http://cgi.ebay.com/Palm-Portable-FoldUp-Keyboard-for-Palm-V-Vx-3C10439_W0QQ itemZ180242410172QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item29f748eabc Or go to: http://www.targus.com/us/productlist.aspx?productCategoryId=16 and then click on the "Wired USB" option to reveal a PA875U01X folding keyboard for $55. >My netbooks weigh 2.2 pounds, and there are times when I wish they weighed a bit more, and they don't weigh enough to adjust the screen one-handedly. My netbook weighs 3 pounds, and my hands fall asleep if I try to hold it and read it like a Kindle -- as opposed to sitting with it in my lap, for example. >I'm presuming when you have the cover on the iPad it weighs the same, and it's cute because you can use it as a kind of picture frame. On my Kindles the cover gets thrown away with the wrapping paper -- I've never used a cover. I do double-duty my netbook neoprene sleeve to cover my DX occasionally. 90% of the people I see using Kindles have discarded the covers too -- at least while actually reading. >I didn't see the price or weight, etc., but it seems obvious that if you buy the full boat iPads with keyboard and cover it's well over $1,000. OK, but the $499 iPad can be compared in terms of purchase decision to the $489 Kindle DX and I think plenty of people will be happy to purchase the iPad non-dedicated reader as opposed to the Kindle dedicated reader. Not clear that *I* would be willing to make that tradeoff, but again, there are people who insist on an e-Ink display, and there are others who don't seem to be bothered by a LCD display. From jimad at msn.com Fri Jan 29 12:24:55 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 12:24:55 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: More iPad details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I find your argument mute. As most computers are not design for the blind or sight impair. Sure they can be modified for use with the blind. I don't understand your comments. Modern computers have many "accessibility" features built-in. HTML has "accessibility" features built-in. Granted a blind user will probably want to buy a 3rd party screen reader app to best make use of the accessibility features built into computers -- but then again the sighted iPad user will have to download a separate Apple app just to be able to read books! Windows 7 comes with a basic screen reader. For an overview of these issues see for example: http://www.microsoft.com/enable/ Blind users have been using text-to-speech with computers since DECtalk 1984. A notable user you have probably seen and heard on TV is Stephen Hawkings. From jimad at msn.com Fri Jan 29 12:50:18 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 12:50:18 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: More iPad details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool, do you have a reference pointer to this -- I can't find it? >jim said: >> You would think that someone, Congress maybe, would >> step into this mess and mandate "accessibility" of e-books >they just did. From jimad at msn.com Fri Jan 29 12:59:02 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (Jim Adcock) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 12:59:02 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: More iPad details In-Reply-To: <627d59b81001290940q58464655n51e14df6fbd06939@mail.gmail.com> References: <627d59b81001290940q58464655n51e14df6fbd06939@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >I have a sight-impaired friend who would appreciate having one of those Kindles drop-kicked in his direction. He figures he can deal with the buttons somehow. Here is a reference to the National Federation of the Blind lawsuit over Kindle use on College Campuses, which was concluded by ending the Kindle campus program in progress, and Kindle agreeing to improve accessibility. The lawsuit alleged that the Kindles were inaccessible to blind students and thus violate federal law. http://www.nfb.org/nfb/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=527 So hopefully Kindles will someday soon be able to speak the buttons and the list of book titles and authors. Can't find any place that Amazon talks about this issue -- not surprisingly! Hopefully Apple and iPad have enough experience that they will not step into the same puddle! From hart at pglaf.org Sat Jan 30 12:55:31 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 12:55:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: More iPad details In-Reply-To: References: <627d59b81001290940q58464655n51e14df6fbd06939@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 2010, Jim Adcock wrote: > >I have a sight-impaired friend who would appreciate having one of those > Kindles drop-kicked in his direction. He figures he can deal with the > buttons somehow. > > Here is a reference to the National Federation of the Blind lawsuit over > Kindle use on College Campuses, which was concluded by ending the Kindle > campus program in progress, and Kindle agreeing to improve accessibility. > The lawsuit alleged that the Kindles were inaccessible to blind students and > thus violate federal law. > > http://www.nfb.org/nfb/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=527 ///////What about just plain paper books? More accessible than Kindles? mh > > So hopefully Kindles will someday soon be able to speak the buttons and the > list of book titles and authors. Can't find any place that Amazon talks > about this issue -- not surprisingly! Hopefully Apple and iPad have enough > experience that they will not step into the same puddle! > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gutvol-d mailing list > gutvol-d at lists.pglaf.org > http://lists.pglaf.org/mailman/listinfo/gutvol-d > From hart at pglaf.org Sat Jan 30 13:11:45 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 13:11:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I found Targus USB ONE FOLD keyboard at: http://www.targus.com/us/product_details.aspx?sku=PA875U01X which I might get, but I was actually look for THREE FOLD version, like the PALM V one you mentioned below. More below, Many thanks!!! On Fri, 29 Jan 2010, Jim Adcock wrote: > >I've been wondering what happened to ye olde PALM/TARGUS foldup keyboards? > > Try re Palm $18: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Palm-Portable-FoldUp-Keyboard-for-Palm-V-Vx-3C10439_W0QQ > itemZ180242410172QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item29f748eabc > > Or go to: http://www.targus.com/us/productlist.aspx?productCategoryId=16 and > then click on the "Wired USB" option to reveal a PA875U01X folding keyboard > for $55. > > >My netbooks weigh 2.2 pounds, and there are times when I wish they weighed > a bit more, and they don't weigh enough to adjust the screen one-handedly. > > My netbook weighs 3 pounds, and my hands fall asleep if I try to hold it and > read it like a Kindle -- as opposed to sitting with it in my lap, for > example. Is the that much difference in weights of netbooks? I only use the smaller ones, but not the smallest, I have large fingers. Michael From jimad at msn.com Sat Jan 30 14:16:00 2010 From: jimad at msn.com (James Adcock) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 14:16:00 -0800 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Formats and gripes In-Reply-To: <4B61D55B.8010405@perathoner.de> References: <20100124200541.GH27785@pglaf.org> <4B60A4D4.8050701@perathoner.de> <4B613AB1.4020302@perathoner.de> <4B61D55B.8010405@perathoner.de> Message-ID: >ALL PG epub files have a TOC. Unzip them and look for a file toc.ncx. I stand corrected. The PG epubs do include a TOC. The PG mobis do not include a TOC. How come? I can take your epubs and file format translate them to mobis, for example by Calibre2 ebook-convert, and the resulting mobi DOES have a TOC. So why do the PG generated mobis do not have a TOC ? From desrod at gnu-designs.com Sat Jan 30 14:40:29 2010 From: desrod at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:40:29 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 4:11 PM, Michael S. Hart wrote: > I found Targus USB ONE FOLD keyboard at: > which I might get, but I was actually look for THREE FOLD version, > like the PALM V one you mentioned below. Unless you're planning to use the Palm keyboard _with a Palm device_, it will not work. These keyboards require very specialized drivers (which ONLY Palm has written), so even if you get one, you still have to find someone to reverse-engineer the thing and write you a custom driver for it. It's not a standard USB endpoint device. BTW, I probably have 1/2 dozen folding keyboards for PDAs in my "archive" of PDA gear: http://code.gnu-designs.com/images/Lots-o-Gadgets.jpg (yes, this is really my personal collection, as of about 3 years ago) From hart at pglaf.org Sat Jan 30 16:03:37 2010 From: hart at pglaf.org (Michael S. Hart) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 16:03:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jan 2010, David A. Desrosiers wrote: > On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 4:11 PM, Michael S. Hart wrote: > > I found Targus USB ONE FOLD keyboard at: > > > which I might get, but I was actually look for THREE FOLD version, > > like the PALM V one you mentioned below. > > Unless you're planning to use the Palm keyboard _with a Palm device_, Sorry, you might have saved me some trouble here, let me ask. Is the Targus USB keyboard also ONLY for Palms??? Not a generic USB keyboard??? Here is the blurb that made me think generic USB: The Targus Universal USB Portable Keyboard is the ideal travel companion for mobile professionals. Providing superb tactile feedback and 68 keys with QWERTY layout, you can accomplish all your tasks easily on the road, from a park bench, even at the mall with this reliable, uncomplicated business tool. Keys for Windows OS and applications are also included, to make your work easier. The keyboard connects easily via USB and folds up once you're done with it, stowing away effortlessly until you need it again. And if the lightweight, convenient design of this product is any indication, we're sure you'll want to keep using it for a long time. > it will not work. These keyboards require very specialized drivers > (which ONLY Palm has written), so even if you get one, you still have > to find someone to reverse-engineer the thing and write you a custom > driver for it. It's not a standard USB endpoint device. > > BTW, I probably have 1/2 dozen folding keyboards for PDAs in my > "archive" of PDA gear: > > http://code.gnu-designs.com/images/Lots-o-Gadgets.jpg > > (yes, this is really my personal collection, as of about 3 years ago) Tell me, would you be interested in doubline or tripling the size. . . ? I have LOTS of this stuff, perhaps a dozen new in the boxes. . . . Michael From desrod at gnu-designs.com Sat Jan 30 16:15:39 2010 From: desrod at gnu-designs.com (David A. Desrosiers) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 19:15:39 -0500 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: iPad Details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 7:03 PM, Michael S. Hart wrote: > Is the Targus USB keyboard also ONLY for Palms??? > Not a generic USB keyboard??? Yes, sorry... I should have clarified. The Targus is a generic USB device, but the PalmV 3-section folding keyboard is not. > Tell me, would you be interested in doubline or tripling the size. . . ? > I have LOTS of this stuff, perhaps a dozen new in the boxes. . . . Hehe, I could make a museum! Hit me offline with what you have. I know a lot of underprivileged people/students/kids that would really benefit from some of these tools. From marcello at perathoner.de Sat Jan 30 22:56:26 2010 From: marcello at perathoner.de (Marcello Perathoner) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 07:56:26 +0100 Subject: [gutvol-d] Re: Formats and gripes In-Reply-To: References: <20100124200541.GH27785@pglaf.org> <4B60A4D4.8050701@perathoner.de> <4B613AB1.4020302@perathoner.de> <4B61D55B.8010405@perathoner.de> Message-ID: <4B65299A.7060304@perathoner.de> James Adcock wrote: >> ALL PG epub files have a TOC. Unzip them and look for a file toc.ncx. > > I stand corrected. > > The PG epubs do include a TOC. > > The PG mobis do not include a TOC. > > How come? > > I can take your epubs and file format translate them to mobis, for example > by Calibre2 ebook-convert, and the resulting mobi DOES have a TOC. > > So why do the PG generated mobis do not have a TOC ? Better ask mobipocket. We use their official 'mobigen' conversion tool for linux. -- Marcello Perathoner webmaster at gutenberg.org